Episode 4: Secrets

0:00Every story has layers, and sometimes the truth hides in plain sight. I'm Josh Dean, host of Camillean, the podcast about people who transformed, deceived, and survived. From con artists to unbelievable yet true occurrences, we dive into stories where nothing is ever quite as it seems. Because to understand the world, you sometimes have to change the way you see it. Listen to Camillean, wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast discusses issues such as drug use, self-harm, sexual abuse, violence, and assault. Listen to discretion is advised. When I was 15 years old, I smoked weed for the first time.

1:05It put me in like a mini coma. In my mind I knew what was going on, but in my body, I felt like I couldn't move. My whole body was so heavy, I couldn't move, I couldn't react to stuff. I was staying the night with a friend of mine. And her brother, I was asleep in the bed, and her brother came in there, picked me up out of the bed, carried me into his room, and he pulled my pants down. And while he was pulling my pants down, I got my arms up, and I pushed his chest to push him off of me. He didn't grab my wrist, he held my wrist down, and he took my virginity. I was so flippin' scared, I was scared I didn't. I had always in nixie mushrooms going on.

2:06My mind was, it was just broken, I just had my virginity taken from me. Shortly after that, he got in a relationship with somebody, and she would bully me at school. Tell me I won't harm a man. I didn't know how to take that, because she didn't even know what had happened. I'd walk around the whole school just to not go around her. If I'm being honest, the part of me feels like I'm being intrusive, broadcasting these parts of Natalie's life. But I have to remind myself that she really wanted these stories to be heard, posting these videos online back in 2019. For her, there was a purpose to it all. The trauma Natalie experienced at such a young age would shape the rest of her life. It would heavily influence every decision she was yet to make.

3:08But for the young Natalie Jones, the trauma just kept coming. I met Brian, which is trans-daddy, and I fell in love for the first time. Until I say I lost my virginity too, I found out I was praying a week before it turned 16. And I knew Bond didn't love me. A new one day he would leave me, but I loved him. Someone left me. Wow, someone was pregnant. He came home. He got his stuff and he left. My mom went to jail. I quit school. I was just a 16-year-old little girl with a baby, all by myself. To fully understand why Natalie was sharing these things on public platforms is to try

4:08and figure out what she thought she might accomplish in doing so. She stated several times she wanted to help others with her story. So maybe as much as this story is an investigation into what really happened to her. Perhaps it's also a cautionary tale. And while many tragic events in her life were completely out of her control, maybe Natalie was urging us to avoid making some of the same mistakes she did make. Mistakes that might have contributed in some way to her death. I'm Sean Kite from AudioChuck and Particle Entertainment. This is the truth about Natalie.

5:12I think that you have to address the elephant in the room. There are many women nowadays that are doing only fans and stuff like that for income. I don't knock the hustle, do you? Live your life, if you need to strip and bank, do your thing. But with Natalie, and I think it's really important to go all the way back to the beginning for me because during the beginning we heard those rumors that she's a cam girl, she's escorting, she's doing this, doing that. And we didn't really find, we didn't find her anywhere. I got on only fans. We had a whole group of people that were signing up for these websites. We heard she's a cam girl, she's doing stuff on cam. I found no trace of her anywhere. After initially hearing rumors, an attempting to find online adult profiles owned by Natalie

6:13to confirm or deny them, one of Natalie's fiercest advocates, Jennifer, tells me she eventually realized they just weren't looking in the right places. Natalie wasn't on only fans or some adult webcam site, but she was escorting. Though on a very specific kind of site, they did eventually find her profiles, multiple profiles and back page ads. Natalie was looking for a sugar daddy. So the interesting thing about the two websites that she was utilizing for these listings that that we have found and that were also in the case file was secret benefits was one, there was sugar daddy for me.com. One of them was, she was advertising out of Atlanta. Again, her profile on both of these sites, it was very mild. Her bio and stuff that was posted was not like something like an established escort would

7:14post, like that knows the hustle, that knows how to like lean into that profession. I didn't get those vibes from that. She was looking for someone that could take care of her. I kind of dethrue definition of a sugar daddy. She wanted that male attention. The other website that she was using was it was advertising herself out of the Gulf Shores area, like Mogil, Alabama, Pensacola, all of that. When police extensively searched through data in her phone records, they found evidence that she had been communicating with numerous men from these sites located outside of Georgia in those last few days leading up to her disappearance. There were phone calls and texts with several of these same numbers late on the night of July 4 into the early hours of July 5. Natalie wasn't communicating with anyone local from the Atlanta metro area that we're aware of, but a Gulf Shores Alabama area profile was very active.

8:15It was through this profile for whatever reason that she met most of the men connected to those out of state numbers. Natalie had briefly moved to the Gulf Shores area only to return just months before her disappearance. It was a surprise to everyone in her circle, even her mother Elaine as close as they were. She said, mama, I'm moving. I said, you ain't going out where? This wasn't February. She said, I'm moving to the beach. I'm like a Parable City Beach. I said, now you can't go to the beach. You can't go to Florida. It was on the beach. You don't know nobody. You ain't got a job. You know, these were mama's thoughts. And she said, who said Parable City? So come march. She said, will you help me go to my storage and get my stuff loaded. I mean, she had a little bit of furniture in there because I mean, she had the bedroom suit and stuff at my house. And I said, yeah, where are you going? She said, mama, move into the beach. These plans of Natalie's seem to come out of nowhere.

9:16And she apparently had already made her mind up. But there was no explanation for why she was leading so quickly. What she planned to do about her kids or how she was going to support herself once the little money she had ran out. It was shocking and concerning for Elaine. I said Natalie, baby, you can't do this. This ain't life. Why are you got to live life? You got one life to live. You got to live it. Be happy. And she said, I pray one day I will see you happy because she's just seen me in some messed up stuff too. So we met over there at the storage thing. And she said, I need every bit of this to go to the back of the view hall. I said, OK, I mean, you only got like this little baby door, you know, that the little size of the storage you get, that's what she had. I went nothing in there, but you know, whatever. I said, will you say this breast is big old part for? She said, my car.

10:18I was stunned. Yeah, I mean, my baby just thought, all this through. And I said, your car. She's, yeah, I'm driving to you all down there with my car. I can return it down there. After I unload my car and my stuff, I got an apartment. Man, her never even discussed gun stores, we never visited gun stores. I don't know how that even came up, but she got her income taxes and she moved. This might have been the first time, Elaine began to think that something was going on in Natalie's life that she couldn't explain or understand. Natalie was always secretive. And while it wasn't out of the norm for her to take a trip for a few days here and there, this felt different. It felt panicked. She somehow managed to get her car into the back of a standard U-Haul box truck with the rest of her belongings. Was she trying to conceal it?

11:19Was she running away from something? Trying to disappear? No one has been able to understand or explain how Natalie was able to rent an apartment without any proof of steady employment or income. How she got this apartment, she don't have no backgrass, she don't have no income, nothing where you can check a background and you're proof of an apartment. You don't say it. But it's the relationships she made during her short stay in golf shores that were now in question. I'm Josh Manikoots and I hope you'll join us for season five of Dateline Missing in America. In each episode of Dateline's award-winning series, we will focus on one Missing Person's case and here from the families, the friends and the investigators all desperate to find them. Maybe you could help solve a mystery. Search Dateline Missing in America to listen completely pre or subscribe to Dateline Premium to unlock new episodes early.

12:24The moment a body is found, the clock starts ticking. 48 hours before the trail goes cold. From A&E and Crime House, this is the official podcast from the famous True Crime series, The First 48. Carter Roy. Every Thursday, I revisit a landmark homicide investigation in depth with long form storytelling built for your ears. Listen to and follow The First 48 on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or Wherever You Listen to Podcasts. Natalie had been communicating via text mostly on the evening hours of the fourth with multiple men, some of whom she met off of Sugar Daddy sites or she connected with, I should say, off of Sugar Daddy sites.

13:24So one man will call him Mr. B. I would say he was the main person that Natalie was communicating with over the past from July 2nd up until the fourth. This man lives in Virginia. He works for the federal government and in these texts back and forth with Natalie, there was just some banter back and forth. There was some sexting, if you will, flirtatious back and forth. They were discussing the potential of a meetup and he had stated that he has a girlfriend, he has a kid, I think he even mentioned and she knows and is okay with it, maybe okay with it, something along those lines. Natalie seemed to be somewhat of a hustle note. As Jennifer mentioned, the text messages between Natalie and the man in Virginia who we're

14:27calling Mr. B were of particular interest at first. The two began chatting to get to know one another, sharing information about their lives, but these messages also included discussions of Natalie flying to the Baltimore Washington area as Lieutenant Boswell reflects. We do know that later on that evening that she did leave and that she spoke to one of the people that she was communicating with out of Virginia. She was conversing with him for a period of time. We know through the text messages and talking to him that he was trying to arrange a time for her to come stay with him for a certain matter of finances that were taking place between him. She tells me that even though it was obvious that Natalie had made solid plans to leave the state at the time she vanished, it was still concerning given the totality of what they began learning about Natalie and her private life.

15:28She had a very difficult lifestyle between that and the cell phone records, her internet searches, her internet activity with a couple of these dating sites, it was concerning. It was concerning. And really when we looked into those like in the very beginning, I think I probably called that guy from Virginia within days of getting the phone records. And another guy in Missouri, an older man in Missouri, I spoke to him shortly after that. And we talked about their conversations. And the guy in Missouri, I know that he was trying to hire her to come live in his house for a while. So that opened up a can of worms in a sense, not knowing if she might have met someone else. It did draw a concern that she may have taken off with somebody. Boswell told me that Natalie was even scammed by a person she met on one of these sites.

16:31I know that she had been communicating with one guy and he scammed her out of money. She went to the CVS and Hogan's wheel and got a couple credit cards and sent him the information. And next thing you know, she is out that money. You know, so she was communicating with a lot of people. And that aside from the local aspect of things, now you're talking other areas. This is a very common and easily detected scan that Boswell is talking about. Boswell still falls for it every day. Someone tells you that you need to buy and activate a prepaid debit or gift card for them in the amount of $100 or $200 and give them the information from the card, at which time they will then load it with money for you. In Natalie's case, it was several thousand dollars she was being promised in exchange for escorting services. Reading through the texts, I couldn't help but say out loud several times, come on Natalie. This is clearly a scam. But she fell for it and was out several hundred dollars when she didn't have to lose, which

17:35shows that Natalie was either gullible or desperate. The one key thing though, for us, that was before the report of her missing. So there was no more cell phone activity after that. Though it doesn't appear as if she'd met up with any of the men she'd been talking to, leading up to or on the fourth, she had shared pictures of herself. And she'd sent pictures of one of her kids to at least one of these men. Shared details about her private life, including her real name and given at least one person, a complete stranger she met online, her home address in Georgia, where she and Elaine were living. She was definitely oversharing. It was stuff that was not very smart. People that knew Natalie said that she never met a stranger. She was naive. But also you have to balance that with the reality that she does suffer from mental illness and that could and probably did play a part in that. But it's like, why would you say that you live here or why would you send a photo of your

18:40kid? Not everyone has your best interests at heart. But to understand Natalie, you have to understand she was a different little bird and she just didn't see things that way. She was just incredibly reckless on her part. Like I would never, ever do that. But that at least she didn't know any better. So I can't like in her mind like I can't hate her for that. Could Natalie have somehow met up with one of these men that night? Someone she met online could such an encounter have played a role in her death. It's unclear when Natalie first began creating online profiles like this and really there is no way to confirm that she ever actually met up with anyone she met online. So as you can imagine, that didn't give police a whole lot to work with and identifying a person of interest. Police interviewed several men who Natalie was communicating with but none seemed to be able to provide any real information other than what was already learned from texts and emails. None of them really stood out as a suspect.

19:40Not even Mr. B, who we discovered worked for the Department of Homeland Security. Natalie texted him 15 times that night. Far more than any other person. The two even spoke on a call lasting over four minutes after she left the party just before she crossed over the Georgia state line. His was the last number ever dialed by Natalie. But police didn't feel Mr. B knew anything of real value other than providing them with her sugar daddy for me profile name, initially solidifying that she was attempting to escort on that site. I've listened to his conversations with investigator Boswell and other than being shocked and a little embarrassed at receiving a call from law enforcement about this, I believe he didn't really know Natalie. He seemed to have no other connection to her other than through the site, numerous texts and that one phone call. But if that is true, it does make what happened next a very bizarre coincidence. After she'd made her name known online as an amateur investigator in Natalie's case,

20:43loudly voicing the opinion that Natalie wasn't simply another tragic OD. Jennifer tells me that she began to notice strange things. I started noticing I was getting some very strange views on LinkedIn. Yeah, I know what you're probably thinking here, but just follow me. After all, we do live in a digital age. I'm a LinkedIn gold member so that gives you a little bit more privilege to see like analytics of who's looking at your profile, like what companies are searching for you or how they found you, whether it's organically or they're plugging it in. So I was noticing that there was an influx of views, not all at the same time, but periodically. Some of those included someone, a technician at Northrop Grumman, someone with Virginia police department. When you're digging into cases like this, it definitely invokes a bit of paranoia because

21:45you just don't know who these people are. But that wasn't the only strange anomaly she saw. People with direct ties to the Department of Defense, the NSA, private security outfits, active duty military and law enforcement were all scanning her LinkedIn profile around the same time. Eyes lingering from profiles mostly rooted in Virginia, the very ground Mr. B called home. And then the clincher, an invisible peak from inside the Department of Homeland Security itself. No name, no trace, then an unusual call comes in. After I connected with Stephen Ford, who is Natalie's ex that she was at the Lake House with on July 4th, he had reached out and called me one morning. I was awake getting ready for work when he called. The number did not show up as his safe contact.

22:46It showed up as a woman. And that name, I didn't recognize. It was a local number. I didn't recognize that. So I didn't answer and it went to voicemail and I continued to get ready for work. I saw that I had a voicemail and I listened to it and realized it was a voicemail from Stephen. I went and Googled the name and realized that this name, a unique name belonged to a high ranking former naval officer turned Department of Defense employee and it freaked me out. A random fluke? Sure, it could be. Coincidence? Maybe. But you have to admit the timing was highly suspect. Was Jennifer right to freak out? She'd thrown herself front and center in Natalie's saga, questioning everything and digging into anyone with ties to Natalie. Was she just paranoid or was someone now digging into her?

23:48Had the hunter become the hunted? Regardless, she and other advocates for Natalie pushed on and kept digging. They found that from here, Natalie's story continued on into a darker place. And to understand why Jennifer was so freaked out at random LinkedIn views or odd phone number showing up, I needed to dig into the people in Natalie's life, people close to her, people who could potentially have some motive or reason to want to harm her or for her to stop talking. People considered by many even law enforcement initially as persons of interest in her disappearance. People like Eric, Natalie's second husband. Yeah, Eric. Eric and her met online. They started going out, seeing each other, bam, they want to get married. I said, Natalie, you know, there's two for two months. You know, I said, I already don't like him. Mommy, you don't like nobody.

24:49That just polyphazes. But I said, no, I said, I know, Natalie, when somebody is going to treat you right and not trying to be controlling or whatever. Okay, they got married. The relationship between Eric and Natalie was a whirlwind. They met on Facebook and began flirting with each other when Eric says he mistook Natalie for someone else. Less than three months later, they were married. And she became pregnant with her second child on their honeymoon. She was 21. It seemed the fairy tale love that Natalie had always been chasing after had finally landed in her lap. But by the time Natalie disappeared, she was in the middle of a heated custody battle with Eric over their child Isaac. And things had become violent. I'm Josh Manikoots and I hope you'll join us for season five of Date Line Missing in America.

25:49In each episode of Date Line's award-winning series, we will focus on one missing person's case. And from the families, the friends and the investigators all desperate to find them. Maybe you could help solve a mystery. Search Date Line Missing in America to listen completely free or subscribe to Date Line Premium to unlock new episodes early. The moment a body is found, the clock starts ticking. Forty-eight hours before the trail goes cold. On A&E and Crime House, this is the official podcast from the famous True Crime series, The First Forty-eight. Carter Roy. Every Thursday, I revisit a landmark homicide investigation in depth with long-form storytelling built for your ears. Listen to and follow The First Forty-eight on Apple Podcasts. Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you listen to podcasts.

26:53I love it nearly, and I love it very much. I really do. Best ever in my life was very insane. I spoke with Eric not long after he was in a serious motorcycle accident. One he had to be life-flighted from. Speaking in a thick southern draw, he seemed to quiet-reserved kind of guy by nature. He was still recovering and a little nervous about being interviewed, so it can be a little difficult at times to understand him. I'll help clarify where needed. But he told me that despite his feelings for Natalie, he never truly felt they were reciprocated. She didn't love me. She didn't love me like I love her. She wanted what we could have. But she was broken and she, when I got with her, she just had a spirit about her. But everything is in her past. Even I don't know what. You know what I mean?

27:54Just the stuff I found out as we was married and she just take off. What Eric Paints is a portrait of someone mercurial, unpredictable, present and warm one second, cold and shut off the next. She's had issues growing up and you know, she didn't tell me all about them at first, but as her married one only, everything would come out, you know, a little bit at a time and she heard from a lot of things, you know, when she had a good, just knew she's going to help so many people with her story. After their kid came into the world, their relationship started unraveling. This rocky ride of breakups and makeups until they finally split for good. Eric landed on the suspect list almost immediately. I'm still not even sure of exactly how she died. I mean, I've been told several different things, you know, I've been a suspect through all this so her family hasn't been able to really tell me anything, but I've just been

28:54accused. But it wasn't just because that's point fingers to partners first. In this situation, they were locked in that bitter tug of war of her custody of their son. Eric relocated back to Alabama just to stones throw over the state line and after the break up, Natalie circled back to live again with Elaine. The times she and Eric did interact after separating were a mix of peaceful handoffs of Isaac from one to the other and vicious clashes. The friction built until police became involved. Eric was arrested on charges of interfering with custody after refusing to drive their son back to Natalie in Georgia at the end of his time. But as he breaks it down for me, it boiled down to this. The boy himself resisted going back with his mother. Total unfunness comes if he wants to go in, you know, and I'm making if he don't want these little, you know, he's very enough to help. And these five-six-carol probably can get me locked me up. Child custody fights amid a crumbling marriage conspire quickly into raw, brutal territory.

29:56That put it to Eric straight up. Had their clashes ever crossed into physical violence as both Elaine and Natalie herself had accused? I wouldn't say physical. I mean, they've called a lot of time, you know, and they don't follow as they're trying to take him from him. I'm covering him up, you know, and they like hitting me in the back. And I'm just pushing to a door like Ed or something, you know, her mom would have done it one time. But I would yell. I've got to where I'd yell. And I've never put my hands on any kind of way. But a door? A door jam or something? Yeah. I've probably, I mean, she's hurt me a bunch of times, you know what I mean? Because I'm never here to want to fall in love. I promise you. Yeah. If you missed some of that, he's just saying that the physical altercations were more him defending himself and his son from Natalie and Elaine when things got heated. But while in one breath, Eric says he'd never hurt Natalie and he'd never hit a woman.

30:56In the next, he alludes to pushing her into a door frame. So I think I'm probably not getting the full picture. Elaine told me that the alleged abuse was not necessarily just physical. So he was abusive towards him? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Manly physically, they had a bad relationship. She called me so many times to come pick her up. He'd put her outside the road. And then whenever she moved back in with me, he would come like visit Isaac and he couldn't take him. He'd have to stay there and visit. And she'd go to the bathroom and he'd throw him in the truck and take off that Alabama. I mean, she has a journal of where she would just like put in there where she'd go up in a woods and just cry, you know, not understanding why her life is the way it is. And, you know, and what's even sadder is she kept it here behind a beautiful smile.

31:56In a journal entry dated May 16, 2018, Natalie wrote, I'm so tired of hurting. I just wish Eric would love me and care for me the way he says he does. He hates me. He hates how I am, how I do things. My heart is breaking. I just want my family. He says he wants the same, but his actions show different. God, what am I supposed to do with the mental abuse? He says I don't love him. He won't let me. I do the best I can. I've stayed. He tells me to leave then asks, why did I come back? Just something else I've ruined. Guilt, please go away. Signed, broken, lonely. She wanted love. She was desperate for love. She was desperate for a family. Natalie wanted the classic American dream. The house, the white picket fence, the 2.3 kids.

32:58She wanted a family of her own, people to care about, and who cared about her. She was always searching for it, rushing towards it. As is evident in the two marriages she hastily entered into. But truthfully, though it might not have been exactly what she had envisioned, she already had family that loved her. She at least had her kids and a lien. I always kept a home for her. She always had a room. And that was one of Eric's biggest problems. If she wouldn't have you to run back to, then maybe she wouldn't leave me. Like that. And I said, no, she's coming back to me because you are abusing her. I said, well, you need to be in jail. She was about to get forecasted of Isaac. Isaac, all that was taken place in August. And she came up missing in July. Natalie and Eric's relationship became a mess of resentment and control. Could the prospect of her winning custody of their son have driven him to the breaking

34:01point, pushed him to actually want to hurt her? And that's the question that many close to Natalie were asking while she was missing. And there might have been solid ground for suspicion. A flurry of tips came pouring into the police about Eric, detailing the harsh things he'd said about Natalie. To protect their anonymity, I've altered the voices in these recordings. Eric stopped by my apartment. We were just talking, you know, it's a kept battle bell on. They always had this, you know, all of a, you know, off the entrance to a motor, a relationship. He'd go, oh, you know, I'd like to send some count. Sometimes they have to shoot awesome iron or something. And he said, and I'll say, okay, he said, but I tell you what, he said, death keep messing with me. He said, he said, don't mess with me. About my son, he said, I'm okay with it. And he said that, and I must say, I need to have a signal. I don't, I don't want to say it. I don't feel somebody told me.

35:02And he had the past serious look on his face and like he made it. Then another call came in where someone close to Eric had overheard him discussing Natalie with another. I have heard when an Eric talking about making Natalie disappear. It was all the time. Oh, we've got to do something about that. We need to do something about it. She's not running me see my kids. This is not the other. And yeah, it was all the time. Now here all this time later, she's missing. They're crazy. They are absolutely at the same in thing. He's done something. He's there. He's done something to her. Well, what we're doing is we're gathering information, but we don't have any authority yet to really do anything against anyone until Natalie shows up.

36:03I spoke with investigator Boswell about these kinds of calls and exactly how law enforcement handles tips like this, which given the circumstances seemed at least worthy of exploration. I think we did do diligence. We went and verified where he was during that time that she came missing. And there wasn't any other indicator that would... Everybody that had contact with her like that. Yes, we're going to talk to them. And you know, this is the thing. We will look into those folks, but I can't tell you how many times I've in the years I've done this job where I've had angry husband and angry wife. I'm all killed that person. There has to be a lot more to it than that. Right? It really does. I mean, anybody's possible. Anybody could do that, but there was nothing to indicate that he had any hand in that particular

37:07process or that he had anything to do with her disappearance. Both the dads had custody of the kids with them. We were able to verify their alibis. Boswell claims that Eric and Brian, the father of Natalie's first child, both had solid alibis for the window when she vanished. Her and Brian were never married, and though Natalie was married to another man before she met Eric, that was short-lived, and he was completely out of the picture. But in regard to Eric, Boswell is spot on. You can't arrest someone for a heated threat alone. You've all spat venom in the heat of rage or even despair. Words that cut deep were terrifying others, but never leave blood on our hands. And Eric denies ever being physically abusive to Natalie, or knowing anything about how she died. So for now, I have to believe that neither of those exes had a hand in her disappearance, nor in the mysterious end she met. But those were not the only men in the shadows of her life back then.

38:07There are others, men who refused to comment for this podcast, but have rejected the serious allegations against them. She started talking to Junior. She was sleeping with him for money. He wanted a barrier, and she had told him no. She said, I think of you as my best friend. I swore it causes my mind. Maybe sometime, maybe Junior could have been involved because he couldn't get her. He didn't go over all his money. Sarah Lyra, he's the star of the show. If you talk about all the men in Natalie's life, she did to them what they taught her to do. Where is the root of that? It's Ira coming into her life at age 13. I think that Ira is a professional of what he does. If you understand predatory grooming, this is textbook 101, in my opinion. She had taken a video CD to an attorney, and she had plans to expose Ira.

39:14Jonathan Lawrence, this politically connected tech ex, who she's about to testify against, like she's on the witness list. There's a lot of people that had motive to do something. The truth about Natalie is an audio chuck original produced by particle entertainment. Ira and produced the series. Executive producer is Ashley Flowers. Additional research provided by community advocates for Natalie Jones. Original music written and performed by Jackson Eppley. And a special thanks to Elaine Gordon and her family. If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic violence, help is available at the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 800-799-7233.

40:18You can find me on social media at Sean Kipe official or at SeanKipe.com. And you can email me any information about this case to info at SeanKipe.com. Don't forget to rate and review the show wherever you listen to podcasts. And as always, thanks for listening. The moment a body is found, the clock starts ticking. 48 hours before the trail goes cold. From A&E and Crime House, this is the official podcast from the famous True Crime series, the first 48. I'm Carter Roy. Every Thursday, I revisit a landmark homicide investigation in depth with long-form storytelling

41:20built for your ears. Listen to and follow the first 48 on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you listen to podcasts.