Episode 9. Gerard Baglieri from Visualize

0:00Hi there and welcome to season 2 episode 9 of The Print Reviews. I'm your host Colin Sinclair McDermott, aka the online print coach. And today we are flying across the point to be joined by Gerard Bagley-Ery. Have I said that right Gerard? Spatternut? Excellent. Who is going to be speaking at Discoop this year, one of the reasons that we are having you on the podcast today to talk about you and find out about your background and what you're going to be speaking about at Discoop. For those people who maybe haven't heard of you before, do you want to just give us a little bit of background as to who you are and what you do Gerard? Well I believe that the context is my background in sales execution. I have worked with, in particular, a print shop here in the Denver area for over the last few years to be able to tighten up the approach that they have based upon the go-to-market strategies, and it's had a very positive effect. So my background mostly is in technology sales. So for the

1:06last 35 years, I've worked for some companies that might be familiar to some of your viewers, Motorola, Cisco Systems, a company called Avaya, which you might be familiar with there in the voice communications field, and then a number of startups. So as an individual contributor, as a frontline manager, and as an executive in those organizations, I've had my fair share of experience in how a sales journey is built and how it runs across a number of different vertical markets. So in the print business, it isn't much different in terms of being able to align around what clients' goals are. And as a provider of products and services, you know, the better you do that, it's faster you're able to start to collaborate. And there's value that's received on both ends, and that's what I'm going to be talking about at DeScoop, you know, in March. Excellent. And DeScoop is on your home turf this year at Sten Denver, so you don't have quite as far to travel as I do. Tell me, what's Denver like at this time of year? Well, I think people are going to be surprised to hear

2:09that, you know, the weather outside is actually quite nice. It feels more like a spring day than being the second of February. Normally, this time of year, we're probably in the single digits or teens, that's Fahrenheit. But now in this entire week, it's going to be, you know, in the high fifties, low sixties and blue skies and sunny. So I know that you live close to Glasgow, probably not quite the same. No, definitely not. So if you can do me a favor and just keep that weather there until the beginning of March, that would be wonderful. And some nice golf weather would be greatly appreciated when I'm out there. I'll do my best. So tell us about your business visualized. What is it? Can you guys do? Well, the group that I affiliate with, there are six partners and we have some staff behind us, but there's six specific partners that have similar background that I have. They've worked for reasonable size companies and they've implemented a methodology called value selling. Value selling is a framework that we've

3:12implemented when we were on the client side, meaning that I was a customer of visualized early days, you know, back in the early thousands, adopted the methodology for the teams that I was managing. And that actually had a positive impact in terms of catapulting me into other roles. I, you know, soon after I implemented the process, I was able to post some pretty decent results and growth numbers. And what I was doing for a company called Symbol Technologies, which is a US-based company in the tech space. And then I was asked to run a team in Southeast Asia. So I picked up and moved my family to Singapore. And I had 11 geographies in Southeast Asia, including Pakistan and India, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Cambodia, those geographies were under my responsibility. And I was able to grow that business over a hundred percent in a period of about three years. So that was something that peaked my interest in terms of maybe not doing this just in one company, but perhaps taking it on as livelihood. So that's what I did. I kind of worked my

4:15way through a number of different executive roles when I was working on that side, selling products and services for the, you know, in tech organizations. And then I decided to put out my own shingle. And I joined as a partner of this organization called Visualize, which we do this type of work for a number of companies that may be familiar to you and your viewers. So service now VMware, which is now part of Dell, we've worked very closely with Adobe and NCR. And you know, I would say many others like Cisco systems that we work with currently to be able to help them build execution process around the strategies that they create. Yeah, okay. Now I have to ask, because I read on your website, when you were out in Southeast Asia, you'd done quite a cool bit right across Vietnam. Is that right? Is that when that kind of happened with that? Yeah, oh, no, it definitely did happen. There was a period of time there when my family was on home leave and they went back to the United States and I was unable to travel all the way back to the US, but I did go to Vietnam with several of my close friends at the time. And we did a

5:21backcountry motorcycle adventure pretty much. We went from Hanoi to the Chinese border over a period of about a week. And we stayed off the main highways to be able to take some of that adventure in. And we met a lot of locals. We stayed in hostels along the way. We had a mechanic because the motorcycles were, you know, some vintage. They were called Minsk's. They're Russian motorcycles that were used during the Vietnam War. And two stroke motorcycles, which you might be familiar with. So they were easy to service, but we had a guide as well as the mechanic who came with us on the trip. It was quite an adventure. It was fun. Quite a special experience, I can imagine. I'd done something similar, but on a bicycle across Thailand a few years back, the Vietnam's a beautiful place. What was your favorite place you stopped at then? You know, honestly, the cities there are just teaming with people and teaming with motorcycles and mopeds, but you get out of the country there and it's just incredibly, I don't know, remote. We're, you know, also used to living in even a city like Denver, which isn't as dense as other

6:26cities here in the United States, but it's just peaceful and quiet. You're out there in the middle of nowhere, so it does give you a different perspective than when you're surrounded by folks like we are all the time. 100%. We went out there for years back. It was my wife's 40th. In fact, we can have decided to do a more luxurious backpack, but we went the other way. We went from what she meant up to Hanoi. We stopped at a little place called Khoyan, which I just fell in love with. It was absolutely beautiful. Did you go down as far as that or? I think Khoyan is on look on the coast. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, we didn't. We didn't get to on the Chinese border. There are these waterfalls that are there that are spectacular and we did spend some time there. I wasn't documenting the trip, so in terms of where we're going, I was following our guide and pretty much trying to stay on the road or on the paths that we were traveling on, but I spent some time because I worked there often in the cities, so mostly in just those cities, because that's where the business was. This was an interesting trip to take with my buddies.

7:30Yeah, for sure. Do you want to jump in back into the sales chat then, if you like? What was it about sales that drew you into this field that kept you here? There must be something deep underline I love for the cheese. It's a good question. My whole life from the time I was in high school, I've been selling. It was things that we did because there were drives that were affiliated with clubs like the Boy Scouts or sports teams that I was part of, but I was always selling. I felt that it was more natural for me. I like engaging with people. That is part of the process of selling and then taking it on almost like a sport because just like I know that you're an avid golfer, there are things that you can do and things that you have to do consistently to be good and so to be able to execute within a sales role. Again, as an individual contributor, I saw early success. It was a great way to tie some of the things that I thought in my life were

8:34competitive and fun. I really loved to play sports and I still do. The idea there is that it was much like a sport and much like a team sport. Being able to collaborate with others to be able to get to a goal is pretty exciting. That's what drew me into selling and then as I started, like most things, when you start to refine your skills, you go through a transition which I think is about, you take action and you get some early success and then you get to coach others. I think like you, like the way that the transition you make Colin is, when I got to a point when I recognized that I did have a lot of repetitions in that role, it was far easier for me to then coach and guide others and that I really enjoyed and I continue to enjoy that part of the job that I do to that. Yeah, no, I've got completely agree with you there. You mentioned there you can have recently done some work with a printing business, so I guess I'd love to know and I'm sure my listeners would as well because it will hopefully reinstalk some of the similar challenges that they go through,

9:36but what are the gaps when you go into working with a new client? What are the most common gaps that you see in their sales teams? It's a really good question and it's one that we saw in this instance here in Denver. A lot of times salespeople will have a lot of struggle with trying to get to decision makers. They will be stuck potentially with individuals in the organization that don't have decision-making ability. They're not the economic buyer and a lot of those salespeople, they just don't know how to be able to access individuals within the organization that are going to be able to give them better insight and that also have the ability to approve, meaning sign where it's necessary to be able to close business. I think some people just accept the fact that they're going to be relegated to someone lower in the organization. That's one of the things that I help my clients do. Another thing is once you've got to an executive within an organization, there might be a different vernacular. You have to speak the language of the individual that

10:41you're engaging with. If you don't, sometimes there's a disconnect. In the print business that's common, you might know that I'll use as an example, there's a large bank here in Colorado that Hamdenpress, one of my clients, is engaging with but not at an executive level, not in a situation where they're able to drive additional opportunities that may exist within the organization that they're not aware of. By being able to navigate throughout executive leadership and potentially identify those individuals that we need to talk to to be able to expand our business, and then when we get there, we actually have a reasonable talk track to be able to make sure that we establish credibility quickly in terms of bringing value and that we also start to create a journey for them that they can see is going to help in the objectives that they've stated or that they've been tasked with in that case, they're back. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So people come to me and I'm sure they come to you frequently. They're looking to

11:44scale quicker than what they are. Where do you see sales execution most often going to break down? Is it in the process? Is it in the messaging? Is it something else? Well, those are two very important elements. The messaging and the process, they sound pretty simple, but it can get very complicated. So the notion there is, I would suggest anybody out there who's attempting to do a better job at influencing or persuading, you need to be able to be prepared and you need to be a pretty good listener. It might sound counterintuitive that salespeople, most of the salespeople that, I don't know, if you were to ask someone's opinion stereotypically about what salesperson, they typically say things like they're talkative, they're picky, they're coin operated, they're probably not great listeners. And those are all the things that we, a salespeople, have to be good at. We have to be prepared to ask really good questions so that we can position better. We have to know what we do particularly well so we can steer

12:48customers in a way that we can educate them. Because oftentimes the individuals that will engage with they don't have a lot of time to learn. And they might be in a situation where they're making a decision. Again, in the commercial print industry, recognizing that someone will arrive in a relationship and they'll probably stick with that relationship for a very long time unless it's disrupted somehow unless something breaks. And there's a wonderful opportunity for a commercial printer to be able to move into a situation where something has broken and they can engage with a client and say, well, what wasn't perfect? What went wrong? And then once we start to understand what went wrong, we could dig a little bit deeper to be able to understand how our products and services may be a better fit for this client. And then the journey from that point forward is to be able to start to expand the relationships across a number of different stakeholders, including the economic buyer, and then be able to have those conversations. The conversation has to go right. And it's sometimes one conversation at a time when you're starting to drive an initiative

13:53because of one goes wrong. Unfortunately, that could cost you, it could cost you a transaction or it could cost you not onboarding an account that you need. Yeah, 100%. At the time of we're recording this, it's the beginning of February. The print industry is notorious for typically being fairly quiet in January. So for anyone who's looking at their first quarter sales targets and they've fallen a bit short in January, they've got to make up over the next two months. Another kind of one or two changes from your experience, it tends to have the biggest impact and the kind of shortest time people are always coming to me looking for the quick wins. What kind of things should people be really ensuring that they are they're kind of focused on if they want to want to make that quarter, what are one kind of hit target? Well, it's a great opportunity for everybody to get aligned around what it is we're good at. And it's also a pretty decent opportunity based on timing when it's quiet to be able to do the

14:55research. You know, I want to make sure that in any case, even in my own business, I want to be sure that my ideal customer profile is tightened down. So I know exactly what I'm shooting at. And then what I want to do and with these AI tools that are now getting ubiquitous, I can do a pretty easy prompt to be able to find out, okay, so if this is my ideal customer and these are businesses that they're in, then I can start to create alignment around how I've helped those types of businesses and I can start doing the campaigning that's necessary to be able to spark some interest. And I'm not sure if this is commonly done within the print industry as much as it's done in my traditional space, which is more the tech space. And I would also suggest that the more I look at the print industry is becoming a tech space. You know, I have a very close friend who is a senior leader at Xerox. They've actually turned a big corner instead of just being a provider of print products and services to now they're in the IT business. They're a technology plant.

16:00Yeah. And so I see more and more of the folks that are in the traditional commercial printing business, you know, want to record and want to be recognized as a technology provider. No, hand depressed, by the way, has a scotics machine. You know, most of the folks that are listening to this podcast are probably they probably know what that is, but some of the the output of that particular machine, which is close to a million dollars to be able to make that capital investment. This machine does, you know, type some metallic coding and things that are more representative in packaging, like the things that you would see in the cosmetics industry or things that you would see on a beer label or a champagne label, things that are really, I want to say ornate and beyond what the print industry was doing for a very long time at this particular price point. So educating the market, I might be going a little off top of care, but educating the market in terms of what has happened in the industry, you want to make sure people understand that you have an edge. Folks aren't all that interested in everything you do. So it's important for us as

17:03sellers to be able to identify where the problems are before we start selling because if the client has an acknowledged that the particular problem you fix is important to them, then I would suggest that that might be wasted. It might be a wasted effort and that's something that we teach, you know, in our process to make sure that we're good listeners and we're asking good questions. Yeah, you've got to find out what the I can abuse the word transformation, like you've got to uncover what that transformation is that your business brings to that client. They don't really care what kit you've got and things like kind of nice shining new maturity they've got. They want to know how you can help their business. I agree. I might return on investment, I guess. Would you agree with that? Yeah. Oh, wholeheartedly. You know, one of the best questions, again, I'll go back to saying that our campaigns are built one conversation at a time and what we talked about previously

18:05was that we want to be able to cast a wide net. So having one contact within the organization where I'm engaged is not, you know, it's not going to give you the advantage that you would have if you had five and gathering different perspectives from different individuals within the organization. So that in and of itself is super important, but the idea that you might be in a situation where you're asking a client, you know, what their biggest problems are related to what we provide as an industry. And that individual will probably identify two or three problems. And if you were to expand your relationships, you might find 10 or 12. And so the more problems that we solve, sounds like a simple concept, but the more problems we solve, the more relevant we become. And as an organization, we become sticky. You know, the client, once they understand, well, you do things that your competitors don't do. Once they once that light bulb goes off, you're in a pretty good

19:11position to continue down that path. And in the business, which I, which like anything else, if I forge a relationship and I'm doing good work and I continue to do good, good work, it's unlikely I'll get unhooked, you know, the print business, like I get it when a printer stumbles, doesn't meet a deadline. There's some friction. That's when there's an opportunity for someone else to jump in and take your business. Yeah, there's a saying I've been brought up with my stepfather was in the industry as well. And the one thing he always hammered home to be and I've heard that numerous times since is you're only as good as your last job. And then people are thicker. You don't, you don't get many chances. Again, and then industry where things can go wrong, but how you react to those situations is really what can this immense those relationships kind of going going forward. And to that point, it's important for us to be able to capture those stories. You know, like you said, you know, you went down this path of saying, perhaps in your father's business, if there was a bump in the road, you need to address it quickly. And they are fickle,

20:14you know, they're quick sometimes to pivot to another provider. But what we want to be able to do is we want to gather those really good stories so that perhaps even we have a library of them that bring context to other conversations. So I keep referring back to Hamden Press because, you know, they have a pretty successful business here in Denver. But in that circumstance, you know, they're doing business with higher ed, you know, universities in the area. They're doing business with insurance providers in the business. They're doing business with one in particular, which is interesting to me is they're they're making labels for some bourbon bottles. There's a high degree of, I don't know, variety of clients that they have to make sure that they're taking care of. But it's important. I'll get back to my point, which was they need to be able to gather those stories. So when they walk into another bank or they walk into another circumstance, they're able to say, Hey, you know what? Let me tell you a quick story about another client similar to you that we've helped, you know, execute an important part of their business. And knowing

21:17what your customers are driving is really important because that'll spark the conversation even further to take folks down, you know, on that journey, which is so important. And it makes you relatable, doesn't it? A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I'm keen to get your take in this kind of. I work with a lot of print companies across the industry. And they're all so keen to go out there and find new business when as we dig a little bit deeper, you know, we discover that they're leaving a hell of a lot of money on the table with the current customers that they already have. Is that something you've experienced in my second follow-up to that is how frequently should we be keeping in touch with our existing customers? Look, I've got a number in my head, but I'd love to get you taken this. Well, if you're going to hear me say this a lot, it depends. But beyond that, I think a regular cadence with a customer is important. And I know that might sound onerous to some folks that have very, you know, scarce resources, you know, you know, we don't

22:22necessarily print shops don't necessarily have hundreds of salespeople. And they have to manage their resources. But if we were able to say to a particular client, listen, we understand that this, you know, this initiative or the series of initiatives are important to you, I think we should get together at least once a month to be able to have a quick conversation either on the phone or have a grab a coffee or better yet a pint or two. And then make sure that you're, that you're, you stay engaged. And when you do that, it should be more than just getting acquainted. It should be able to take you down a path where you're asking questions about what the business is trying to achieve. Once we understand that, and if we can stay on that topic, then when we get together at those intervals, and again, it could be every two weeks, it could be every month, it could be every other month, the idea there is that at least we're keeping that motor running. And it's important for us as salespeople. I mean, that's how we make our livelihood. We have to stay engaged. And to your point, you know, it might be six, seven

23:25months before we've checked in and somebody else might be at the doorstep when we're not. And if we can build something on right now with the tools that we have, I mean, even getting together like this on some type of a medium that you and I can record a conversation. And it just goes a long way to be able to make sure that I can capture what I've heard. I've asked good questions. I might turn over a problem or two or an additional opportunity that didn't come up before. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I'll tell you what my number was, because again, this may be right around this is this is just the way I've always done things. But I typically say to the people I work with that everyone who's ordered a print job from them in the last, let's say five years, they should be getting at least one phone call every three months. Now, like you said, the cadence might be different for like you might have some clients who need that contact every every week or every month, but the bare minimum, like because you're not having important conversations and you're easily forgotten about if you're not keeping in touch.

24:28And like you said, there's always someone clipping at your heels trying to get in the door. And if you're not servicing them, you're not looking after them then. I also think to your point, Colin, is that, you know, there are multiple channels for you to stay engaged. It doesn't always have to be the same thing. And the check-in call, the check-in call also is something you can start to change it up. I happen not to be a fan of I'm just checking in. That to me doesn't have enough purpose. I want to be able to call the client because I know the client is trying to achieve a goal. And if I have any understanding of what it is that individual is trying to achieve, then that's a better conversation in terms of how are you doing against the X? It takes a little practice, even to the point where you and I started talking earlier in this conversation about when I get into a meeting with a particular client, prospect or otherwise. Mike, first question is, what do we want to achieve here? Like, what are we focusing on

25:29that you're going to walk away with something worthwhile? And then if we go down that path, then at least I know where I'm going and I know where they're going. And it tends to create guardrails, not handcuffs, but it creates really good guardrails in terms of the conversation and how it's received. Beyond that, I would say that there needs to be some type of a paper trail. And I don't mean that in a physical sense because we have so many tools now, but we need to be able to start to create a cadence. That's actually documented in such a way that the client knows that you're listening, that you have steps to take, everybody's accountable for what we're going to do, next and even if it's just to be able to gather additional information from potentially other stakeholders, we want that motor running. The ability for us to pivot, you said this and I wanted to jump on it, which is we're going to get a lot more business from the business that we already have. Going after new business, that's a whole new kettle of fish. But if we have business that's healthy, we should be going back to that base often enough to be able to get referrals,

26:35make sure we're investigating other opportunities that might be within that entity or at least referenceable. Does that make sense? Yeah, 100%. And again, I talk about this frequently as well, but we always assume that the clients know what they should be buying from us. So again, if you're not having these conversations to find that information out and to find out how you could be helping them, you might have other ideas about actually it's not that particular product. They need it's this one because that's going to help. And again, if you've got those stories that you alluded to earlier as well, that you can give them as a point of reference, it just puts more substance and weight behind your advice and expertise, doesn't it? You said something that I wanted to reflect on, which is products. You know, clients don't care about your products. They're focused on their problems that are in the way of achieving their objectives. They don't care about your products. As much as we do, you know, we care about, you know, this particular process or this printer or this ink or the things that, you know, maybe we'll stand out for us. But if we can associate

27:39what we do with problems that we solve, that resonates. And what might even resonate beyond that is correlating the problems that we solve to impact that the business received as a result. So the organization of a great example is on a keep referring to Hamden Press because they've got a good thing going on. We were able to get them engaged in mailers for an insurance provider. And they're very specific in the technology that's available today. These mailers go out to a particular demographic. They can even take an image based upon some of the integration with Google Earth. They can take an image of your home. And on the envelope, actually, you receive as a consumer an image of your house that's been mail to you to hopefully get you to open it up to talk about new insurance regulation, things that might be impacting you and your wallet directly. And what we recognize is that immediately there was an uptick in the number of leads that were

28:43being generated for this one particular insurance provider who has multiple, I want to say, multiple agencies in Colorado. So the amount of impact that Hamden Press has with that insurance provider is probably in, I want to say, the tens of thousands of dollars in annuity per year, just annuities because once the business is closed, an insurance provider is just going to continue to service that client for a very long time. So the ability for a seller, and again, in the in the print business, very specific to what you're talking about, but to be able to make certain that you understand the impact that you've brought a particular client. And if you can get a metric or something that's measurable to be able to talk to another client, it certainly will interest them. And they'll lean into that conversation. And then what you're trying to do is is surface potentially other areas of measurement and impact. They're going to help the client get to a goal that you need to understand. That's kind of the customer jury that we're talking about.

29:47And it doesn't happen fast, but there are steps in that process. Gerald, I think you and I could sit and easily go on for another two ever to you, but I'm looking forward to catching up with you out in Denver in just a few weeks now. We've got a couple of traditions on this podcast, which I hope you'll play along with. But I always try and finish off with a quick fire round, just then couple of short, sharp, punchy equations. Just neither one word, one or two word answer from you. Are you up for that? Sure. Let's do it. Let's do it. Okay, question one. What was your first job that's not on your LinkedIn profile? I worked as an assistant in a funeral home. Okay, not how that one before. No, I, you know, it was a first job I had at a college that gave me a car and a place to live, you know, outside of New York City. So that was my, that was my first job. And well, demand, demand, in that industry was frowned upon at the time. Crazy, crazy. Okay, next question.

30:52One word your team would use to describe your leadership style. The ones that liked me probably, probably would say that I was a player coach. Like it, like it. Favourite sales tool or practice you rely on every week? Well, the methodology I follow, which is called a value song framework, I rely on it every day. I mean, it is, it is my, it is my go-to. It's my handbook. It's, you know, I, what I sell as a, as a practice is what I do. Love it. Okay. Question four. What's the most overused buzzword that you hear in sales early, the ship conversations right now? I'm not sure if this is your opinion also, but when people start to talk about swim lanes and they use cliches like, you know, control the uncontrollables, it just makes my head hurt because when I start to hearing people talk in that vernacular, I recognize that maybe they, they're not quite as gifted as they think they are.

31:59Question five. A book podcast or mentor that has had a big impact on how you lead. Oh, that's, well, you know what? There are probably tons of podcasts out there. One that I happen to, to listen to every day is called The Daily Stoic. There's a fellow named Ryan Holiday here in the United States. I'm not sure if you're familiar with. Yeah. I mean, it's really based in the diary of Marcus Aurelius and some of those, you know, ancient philosophers, Kato and Marcus Aurelius in particular, but that to me is that, you know, following those rules and those principles, simplify my, my life, not just in my professional life, but also in my family life and my personal life. I think following those, those rules brings me, you know, brings me some peace. Yeah. Yeah. Love it. Yeah, I have to have, I've actually started following a lot of that, you know, a lot of tourism through COVID and things like that as well. So I'm with you on that.

33:04Okay, we have a tradition on this podcast, final question, a bit of a personal one, but it'll let our audience and hopefully the desicure audience get to know you a little bit more as well. Can you share something about you that not many people and the industry of your business circles know about you? You know, that's a really hard question. I think I'm pretty transparent. So there's not a lot of stuff out there that you can't find out if you dig hard enough. I, I love to nap. I love to, you know, so my day typically starts early, but sometime midday, I'm good for, I'm good for 30 minutes, 30 to 50 minutes of, you know, really deep sleep. Yeah. I usually block out that time, but time in my calendar, but, but that's, you know, and that's been happening since, you know, not just as I'm old, but it's been that way for a really long time. So I'll just throw that one out there. Yeah. No, you can't be a little power nap. I like to squeeze one in as much

34:08as I possibly can. But I invested in one of these work watches. Yeah. My daughter has one of those. And it really gets you thinking about sleep patterns and obviously quality of sleeping. The impact, even just a quick 10 minute power nap can have is, is, is quite incredible. So, listen, Gerald, it's been a pleasure speaking to you. I'm really looking forward to obviously going to get into meeting person and Denver on a few weeks time. And for anyone listening that wants to reach out, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you? Well, I'm pretty easy to find. If they want to connect to me on LinkedIn, that's an easy thing to do. On LinkedIn, you can set up a meeting, even if you want to be able to have a quick 30 minute conversation, just kick around your own circumstance, which might be useful for some of your viewers. Excellent. Okay. We'll put a link to that show notes as well. Yeah. Listen, thank you very much for your time. Really appreciate it. I hope the listeners have enjoyed some of those nuggets you've shared as well. And I look forward to sitting in on your session over at the scoop and actually then.

35:11Likewise. And I hope you get, you know, we're able to arrange something. Maybe I can help out on, you know, priority or trip so we get you out on a reasonable golf course while you're here. I'm not going to argue with that. Excellent. Thanks again, Gerald. I'll speak to you soon. Take you. Sure, Colin. Great to meet you. Take care.