Epstein Wasn’t Just About Sex—Here’s What Really Drew Smart & Successful People In

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So much has been written about the Epstein case, and appropriately so, right? It's a serious

subject and it warrants attention, but so much of it has been repetitive. I have singled out

previously a particular piece written by, I hope I do right by the pronunciation, Anand

Jared Haradas, which ran in the New York Times under the headline, how the elite behave when

no one is watching inside the Epstein emails, because I thought it really added value.

Just a paragraph, if you'll indulge me, the emails in my view together sketch a devastating

epistolary portrait of how our social order functions and for whom.

Saying that isn't extreme, the way this elite operates is, and then there's further discussion of

the so-called Epstein class. And then this graph, what his correspondence tended to share was membership

in a distinctly modern elite, a ruling class in which 40,000 foot nomadism, world citizenship,

and having just landed back from Dubai, lend the glow that deep roots once provided, in which

academic intellect is prized the way pedigree once was, in which ancient caste boundaries have

melted to allow rotation among or simultaneous pursuit of governing, profiting, thinking,

and giving back. Some members like Mr. Summers, meaning Lawrence Summers, are embedded in all aspects

of it. Others less so, really terrific insight, just when you thought you'd read and know everything.

And now there's another. Holly Peterson wrote it, it appeared in the Wall Street Journal under

the headline, how did Epstein snare so many otherwise savvy people? I mean, that's the question, right?

Why did they want to be in his orbit? And was it just about sex?

Holly Peterson is a journalist based in New York City and writes the Earn Your Luck column

for the Wall Street Journal magazine and contributes lifestyle reporting and topical essays

to the journal as well. Holly, thank you so much for being here. So this is the way that you began,

in the dribbling and desultory release of Jeffrey Epstein's emails over the past few months,

one question has risen above the filthy froth. Why did brilliant economist doctors,

chieftains of industry, seek Epstein's counsel and cow-tow to him shouldn't they have known better?

And then you say, well, part of the answer is simple. What's the simple answer?

Simple answer, Michael, is there is, you know, the whole thesis that the 99 percent has,

about the 1 percent, connecting with each other and reaching each other, helping each other

proves basically true with the Epstein story. And it's absolutely fascinating. And what I meant by

it's very simple and goes back to the black book is that people in this circle, I call it the

Accomplisher class because it's not just rich people, it's hugely accomplished people want to be

included. They want to be seen. They haven't meant Sphomo, whether it's Davos or some conference

in Aspen or whether, frankly, it's a dinner party where Ahud Burak and Sergei Brenner are going to be,

you know, they want to be invited. It's like the rich person seventh grade cafeteria. That is

the simple answer. That's why smart academics, intellects, doctors went to his house. Part of it was

curiosity because there were some journalists there. And I think a lot of it was just, I'm going to

get something out of this. It's greed and phoma. That's it. We all want to be like, we all want to be,

you know, picked for the team, right? So even among the power elite, it's the same lesson we learned

in grade school. Well, I'd say it's nuclearized in the power elite because most people who are

successful in America these days, and I'm talking astounding stratosphere, not the ball way out of

the park's success are self-made. You know, the the was Protestant Eastern establishment isn't really

alive anymore. That money drained out, right? And so it's self-made people. All these guys on

Wall Street, all these guys in the tech world, they didn't, you know, they're not science working

with daddy's money, right? And to have that kind of success, you have to have a deep neurosis

about succeeding. You cannot give up. You have to have the Olympic athlete mentality from, you know,

age 14 to the end of your life. You want relevance. You want to be important. You want to be included.

You want to matter. And everything about this Epstein story in terms of the circle operating together

works on that principle. I think a lot of the conspiracy theories are predicated on a different

belief, which you belie quote, sure Epstein was a serial child offender who orchestrated a vast

multi-state network to groom and exploit minors. But most of his hangars on were not in it for the

sex. Expand on that. Okay, this is my thesis. And this is what I want any journalist out there

to start working on. We understand the sex, right? These are just horn dogs who want sex like we

understand why they were there. But there is a huge amount of people who were hanging out with

Epstein who were not into it for the sex. Why were they there? What were they getting? And for those

that seemingly were just looking for financing for the university and then you dig a little bit,

you find out they wanted to hire a model or something, you know, it gets nefarious pretty fast.

But I think it's really interesting, which is the subject of my piece, which I don't think had

been done before. Why were people there who weren't into it for sex? And it's what we're talking about

because they were greedy because when you hang around rich people, powerful people, successful

people, and that can be the head of a museum, right? It can be the head of a foundation,

it can be a best-selling author, and it can be a hedge fund, dude. It can be anybody, right? It's

not money only. It's accomplishment. When you hang out with those people and you interact with

someone, you often get something back, right? And often, if you know who's going to be there,

you're like super-targeted to go. It's quite simple, you know? I'm going to this party in LA

that I've no desire to go to because I write these saucy novels and I want one to turn into a show,

and I'm going to go suck up to all these TV producers that are going to be at the party. Now a sex,

you know, criminal offender is not hosting the party. It's a big agent out there, but that's why I'm

going. So people do this all the time. I mean, and I will say the human nature aspect of it

is across classes, right? There's communities in churches and nursery schools and synagogues and,

you know, community pools and community tennis courts where people want to be included. They want

to be invited. Some of these things are membership only or some of these things. There's only 12

spots in the nursery schools. So you're going to be nice to the pastor. I mean, there's all kinds of

things that everyone does in life where you kind of have to suck up to someone or you just feel

like you want to be invited, right? So I think this is the reason why I was drawn to your analysis.

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channel 124 and anytime on the series xm. So I think this is the reason why I was drawn to your

analysis because I'm a big proponent of mingling and a huge fan of Robert Putnam and bowling alone

and trying to explain to people that what we all need to do in our corners of the country is to

have common experience and socialize with one another the way that our parents did and become

joiners. So then I read Holly Peterson's analysis and I say to myself, this is social capital

on this uber level like they're they're doing something. I'm not defending it but I'm saying

they're they're doing what I'm kind of advocating people to do in their local communities by by

running you know the little league squad or being in the pta. I couldn't agree with you more.

I mean I I can't I mean just let's try to stop it here right like you should go on this rant too

this whole black white cancel culture just you know it's destroying everything. I believe the gray

in the middle call it 80% 70% 60% whatever I think we all agree we all want the same things right in

terms of education and healthcare and spending and all of these important things that are affecting

our lives and our children's lives and it's a matter of not communicating with each other and I

chastised journalists who were saying oh no it's not okay you know Brad Carp the head of this law

firm caved to Trump and he helped Leon Black with some connection with some Russian lady you know

bribing him well if he's working for Leon Black right and Leon Black has paid this woman 18

million dollars what is he supposed to do we supposed to go over the options of how he could

help him now some of those options if you read the New York Times today this is a major lawyer for

Leon Black who used to run Apollo aren't entirely legal but he was discussing them right is does that

mean Brad Carp should lose his job and should be you know seen as hanging out with sex offenders

and pedophiles no you know people do things to help each other that sometimes aren't quite right

sometimes they talk about it and sometimes they don't do it but they talk about it and that's

just how we all function we all we all function like this right so you're making you have to start

speaking more sophisticated Lee that's not a word about issues that affect all of us and stop

blaming everybody you know and and and start forgiving some people and understanding the great

Holly's reference is to page one above the fold today in the New York Times under the headline

Epstein acted as the fixer for a billionaire friend and I read the story and you can probably see

all my notations in the in the margin I'll tell you something interesting on relative to what you

just said senator governor metal of honor recipient today happens to be metal of honor day bob carry

was a guest on this program within the last two weeks because his name shows up in the context

of him being the president of the new school and making a fundraising call on Epstein 20 years ago

I guess and low and behold you know now he's trying to help an energy startup in his native

Nebraska and his business partners were clutching their pearls because they heard that his name

is in the Epstein files and he told them I don't know if you read the story his words were

audio MFers carried in want to be associated with them if they were going to be so nervous

relative to the fact that his name was in the file because he tried to raise funds from Epstein

for the new school thoughts yeah I'm in well a ridiculous insanity right I am not exonerating

these people we really have to learn we have to look at each case and as journalists we have to

dig more into this but no you can't you can't this is why we don't have good politicians because

you smoke powder you did coke once when you were 23 and you can't be a politician all of us make

mistakes all of us are stupid at some point all of us compromise morals at some point right and

we have to give each other a break now I'm not again I'm not exonerating these people but I

understand perfectly why someone like Bob Carrey would call on Jeffrey Epstein even if he was

convicted I don't know it was before after 2008 but even if he was convicted you might say well I

just need 30 million dollars for the scholarship fund and if he's given all this money to MIT

and horror why don't you just take 10 mil from him and then I'll talk to my board about if we can do

it but I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna check out I'm gonna check out this guy and see how bad it is

see if it's worth it I mean that's that's that's normal behavior in my mind for university president

to look it up you you bring something to the table in this conversation and I wouldn't bring it up

except it runs in and out of the essay that brings us together quote from my own vantage inside

this world well what is your vantage inside this world what's your connection that you can offer

these opinions I grew up inside this world I went to these private schools I grew up on the

upper side and because you're Michael I'm gonna tell you a little more that I often often don't

offer my dad was Peterson who was was a self-made grew up in a Greek coffee shop and in my mind was

a great moral figure for all of us and a great patriot he's one of the original signers of the

giving pledge he ran Lehman Brothers in Blackstone and all this stuff and he grew up in a coffee shop

and you know he he was a great man but that's why I know this stuff because I grew up amongst

this world now I happen to have a full-time career as a journalist at ABC Newsweek in the Wall Street

Journal and not many journalists see the world as I see it because they weren't afforded

growing up as proximity to this world and also a lot of people with proximity to this world don't

work as hard as a lot I like to work right that's that's another topic entirely but um that's

why I see what I see and my dad said to me always this is the one thing professionally speaking I

I say to everyone and quote him on is use your comparative advantage figure out what you're

really good at and do it whether it's a hobby your job whatever figure that out and go for it

my comparative advantage is I'm uh you know thoroughbred trained journalist along with my peers

all these wonderful places we've been able to work and I can use those skills digging and reporting

but I can report on things that no one else sees because I'm invited into these circles so that's

why I cover this world your dad was uh correct me if I'm wrong secretary the treasury under

president Nixon and the part I know for sure is commerce commerce commerce oh okay that part I

blew but this part I know for sure he's passionate about the size of our debt and the Peterson

foundation is you know a family related entity where he just left behind a lot of money because

he thought somebody needed to be reminding the public of concerns over the type of astronomical

death that that we have today I want to read something else from from your your essay with Epstein

their societal ambitions were so urgent they failed to be discerning in their sweaty striving

to be hosted and toasted at the right dinners book parties panels benefits or openings the paleo

protein of New York upper crust evening schmorkers work I love this many lost their bearings

call it a fancy form of FOMO I've been privy to someone's absurd envy over arrivals bigger

and heard people running huge enterprises speak of wanting to start another one at 70 expand on that

well that's what I'm saying you don't become a huge CEO or a huge creator or a huge leader

without a drive that is a nuclearized right you have to want it so bad like an Olympic athlete

and the people around Epstein's table and in his circles again people have to stop saying it's

only rich people it's not only rich people it's doctors and creators and and museum heads and all

of this you know they want more they want to do better and they want more there's insatiability for

goods for people who have a lot of money and there's insatiability for recognition relevance for

people who are just obsessed with their success and we all know these type of people and they're

really really impressive but when they get together they're so intent on what they're going to get

from meeting more people that I think they just weren't entirely thinking like is this email coming

out one day you know and that's what I mean they're sweaty desire to get whatever they were

going to get at that table or to be included as I said greed or FOMO is a simple answer here

you know made them lose their bearings you know that's my thesis one one final aspect of this

which I found intriguing I'll phrase it this way don't you people I'm going to put you in this

category now only because you grew up in the service time don't you people ever entertain don't

you people ever entertain at your own homes well this is something else I explain a lot of people

are scared to have people over for dinner and that's just across the world of America why I don't

know because they don't know how to cook and they don't want to do the dishes and they get

how much seven and they have three jobs and they're exhausted answer one but in this circle where

they could certainly afford hiring a chef or waitress having people over is a competitive sport

okay you got to have serious candlesticks you got to have flowers you got a beautiful

table escapes and this and that you've got to have great food and servers and wine it's a huge

pain in the ass and it's a huge enterprise and you cannot have Clinton over or some CEO or some

major academic and invite equally important people and again not rich people but important people

and not have a nice table and not do it right and that's just a Martha Stewart skill that a lot of

people don't have and they're not interested in having so he was so he was willing he Epstein was

willing to entertain at that level and therefore I can't accept the invitation absolutely very

and there's also something I call real estate porn like that's why book talk you want to see the house

party and you want to see the house when okay okay one last thing one last thing just so you know who

you're dealing with so I'm in the Epstein file do you know why I'm in the Epstein file because when

they executed a you're not going to believe this this is so insane when they executed a search warrant

on on that you know Tony Eastside House of his they used a crowbar to go in those enormous

wooden doors and I saw a photograph in I think the New York Post and I said my God did they have

to do that to the door only because I'm a fan of the architecture okay I didn't I know nothing

about Epstein never nothing so I said this on radio just because it was an extemporaneous thought

of mine and now the post came back and they wrote up this asinine comment that some talk radio host

made about having concern for the doors and lo and behold within the southern district of New York

one person shared that New York post with another person among the prosecutors and said

something like your sister-in-law is not the only one expressing sympathy for the doors so I guess

somebody else must have raised that that concern and consequently consequently if you put my name

in the search engine at DOJ you come up with that hit how do you appear in the Epstein files and

did you know him I was at a party with him once I saw him across the room I am in the black book

and I am in the DOJ files both of them having never met him except witnessing him once I was in

the black book because I knew G. Lynn Maxwell and women of a certain age call it late 50s early

60s who were out and about at all everyone knew G. Lynn Maxwell I mean she's just had enormous

reach so many people met her knew her I knew her well okay um in the DOJ thing I was at a party that

Peggy Siegel was writing about for Jeffrey Epstein I was at a New Year's Eve party and she saw

me across the room and she said you know these 20 people were there and my name is on a list at a

party he wasn't even at so um it's absurd it's insane you know this whole thing have you

maintained your relationship did you maintain a relationship with Maxwell I am really pissed at

myself journalistically speaking for not writing her in prison every other week and saying look

you know me because I want to interview her oh okay you know not to defend her yes to me no no

no no I want to interview her okay but make clear your current feelings about her beyond wanting

to interviewer you you recognize the wrong of what she did I'm sure you weren't aware of it at the time

I was not aware of it at the time thank you for protecting me Michael and it's so evil it's

insane I just watched a um Virginia Jeffrey interview because I've been deep into this on you know

Australian 60 minutes I mean what she did to that girl alone grooming her telling her to come over

giving Epstein a foot massage and then making her have sex with him and the girl was abused

before so she did it so so she knew what pray was she knew who would say yes and I'll tell you

one very brief thing I worked for Harvey Weinstein at Talk Magazine which was part of Miramax

and Harvey used to joke around with me but I wasn't prey to him right he was never after me right

and why do you why do you think why do you think

because I I grew up the way I grew up and I had an important father I'm not praying

you think he'd have been he'd have been afraid to he'd have been afraid to pray on on Holly Peterson

he wouldn't have been afraid too it just wouldn't have worked right I mean sometimes he would say

to me you know you're a good-looking broad I said Harvey in your friggin dreams honey you know I

mean I just was sassy back with I wasn't scared of him and he predators for date which is a verb

I looked it up on pray right and and Ghilin Maxwell found pray she didn't find rich girls at Spence

you know she didn't find captains of volleyball teams she found the girls who looked miserable

and abused and she brought them to Epstein and she acted all nice in her fancy British accent

and she taught them how to give foot massage and then he said then she said take your pants off

I mean it's it's absolute evil it's shocking but I think she was going to give an interview she you

know she she might feel that I would be straight with her treat her fairly thinking and you know

I don't know whatever that means treat her fairly but I feel like I can get her to talk possibly

when you come back don't hold back bring the personality next time okay

I don't want you to feel it I don't want you to feel inhibited

can't help myself I've got five brothers I gotta speak up when I speak I get it

really fascinating thank you so much for what you wrote and for your willingness to drop by and

discuss it I appreciate it well have me back I got a lot of other things I'm working on

I can I can tell Holly Peterson is a journalist in New York City who writes the earn your

luck column for the Wall Street Journal magazine

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there's so much in there to unpack oh my gosh but the part that i think you know is against

the grain of what the public thinks i think that the public i had holly here to disabuse people

of the idea that this was all driven by sex and that if you were in his orbit you were in on it

which i think is the large part of of the public perception of this it certainly drives the

conspiracies about jeffrey epstein it certainly drives the conspiracy thought of of how he you

know was taken out rather than offing himself because oh my god you know they needed to kill him

because they were going to reveal this sex ring i mean we've been through this angcush cardori

from politico the former prosecutor southern district of new york was here recently

and and we went through exhaustively why is no one else going to be prosecuted relative to jeffrey

epstein and largely it's because the prosecutors having looked at this over the span of several

administrations do not believe that there was some sex trafficking ring and initially i think people

this is not a defense of anybody in his orbit i'm just laying out what i think went went on here

the people in his orbit i don't know what they knew but i don't think that they were in on it and

i think initially the perception was they were in his orbit especially you know the the guys

and the well-known guys whether you're talking about clinton whether you're talking about trump

they must have been doing it too no it was all social currency it was the social capital to use

pottenham's words just being practiced at a totally different level enough from me what do you make

of it jim you're in veero beach what did you want to say thank you michael a long time

listener i've i've called in a couple times and i kept thinking as your guest was talking

those of us of a certain age that remember the early days uh you have no used to have parties

short playboy i mentioned and it was the same thing back then i'm thinking that the the guests that

were invited to these parties were consciously or subconsciously you think you know making that

comparison that's kind of like a place to be seen and i'm sure that amongst the ladies that weren't

of age there were probably a lot more that were and they saw they knew there was money being invited

and opportunities to meet people that could advance them in many different ways so i you know i'm

not trying again not justifying what obviously happened but i suspect that this was going on well

before he got the rumors uh that he was you know what his particular taste were uh and there were

people that's showing up at these parties because it was always it was i don't know i i i i jim i

i'm not sure if i accept that i think my impression of the heft parties was you wanted to be there

you did want to be there for the women and uh as you said to see and be seen you know that that

seems like a fun place i'm going to hang out and i'm going to i'm going to meet attractive women

with women who by definition will get naked but let me just read to you let me just read to you a

liner to from holly's piece talking about what was different about Epstein going to one dinner at

Epstein's was just so damn efficient by bantering with the right people even if invited by an

unsavory host the hedge fund bro or tv director might just grab the brass ring on the merry go round

a connection to an ivy league trustee for your high school or a green light for a tv series

something that would be difficult to achieve on their own most of the men i know would cut off a

limb she writes to play 18 holes at a gusta

hmm well i make sense but but i see some overlap you know i see yeah i do too no i do too

yeah yeah uh it was just a place to go and there was sexual obviously with heffner he had a

magazine that uh brought him where it was and uh i mean i mean heffner was was blatantly about

the sex of it all i don't think if you i don't think if you went to a quote unquote salon at Epstein

i don't think if you went to a salon at Epstein's whatever the hell that might be

you're even going to see a 17 year old or a 16 year old i i my impression is you know that that

that came at a different time and that these people uh not all of them and i don't i don't want this

to sound defensive i'm just it's more explanatory of of what i think went on here and what explain

because she asks she asks the right question and she answers it why would so many have wanted to

associate with him i mean it's stunning when you take a look at like a venn diagram of the overlap

of different people who are very powerful and all in his all in his orbit dug your in main you're

hearing this conversation what what sentiment did you want to offer yourself well uh i agree a lot

with what miss peterson said uh that there's a lot of guilt by association people weren't all

there for sex proper perhaps most were not the problem becomes in part uh who wasn't who wasn't

and i don't think that'll ever be proven i'll give a quick example i'm from main as you know

it in center George Mitchell to me is along with Margaret chase Smith uh terrible uh who was uh

one of our folks who was uh democrat uh republican the secretary of defense underclinical

uh well George Mitchell was just resigned for things because his name came up you could very well

been there for the political reason i've never heard anything bad about him sexual so that's that's

i mean i don't know i don't know anything about it that could be another bob carry case i

give carry credit i have no problem with carry trying to fundraise from Epstein and i love what he

said to his business partners who clutch their pearls when his name showed up i mean his his name

showed up in in almost as a ridiculous way as my own name except he actually did have contact

with Epstein and i didn't michael smirconnish for independent mind listen weekdays on Sirius XM's

potus channel 124 and anytime on the Sirius XM app when a trip to the hospital or pharmacy leads to a

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