Etruscan Evil Plans

0:00Welcome to the Partial Historians. We explore all the details of ancient Rome. Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles wage, and when citizens turn against each other, I'm Dr. Rad. And I'm Dr. G, we consider Rome as the Roman sort, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of this city. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad, and I am Dr. G, and we are somewhere, potentially,

1:05inside the year of 386 BC. I'm sorry you weren't Dr. G, we're in a, just about the most exciting time of Roman history because the legend that is Camilleus is front and center of my narrative yet again. Yeah, look, I mean, the way that Livia is fanboying all over Camilleus is shocking, I have to say. So just to give you a bit of a recap, dear listeners, we are allegedly in 386 BC, circa. I think it's fairly safe to say we're somewhere in the beginning of the 4th century BCE, but I won't nail it down any further, just to be on the safe side. And so far, my account of the beginning of 386 BCE has just been full of action. It has been full of weirdos on behalf of Camilleus. He's commanding the Roman forces as they deal with their many, many enemies.

2:06Look, I mean, from where I'm sitting, it feels a little bit unbelievable because I don't have Livia as a source. I have everything else conceivable as a source. And it's really painstaking, like needle in a haystack kind of stuff to be like, I wonder if this is a story somehow. I wonder where this fits in. I know, it is very tricky, but I think it's safe to say we're going with the Livia narrative. Rome is definitely going through a difficult time, even though he's painting it in quite a heroic light. I would say that given that Rome had some sort of disastrous encounter with the goals before these events, when exactly we can't be certain, Rome's enemies, I think, are probably closing in, sensing blood in the water, and even their former allies. I mean, the Romans are having troubles with the Etruscans and the Volskians, but that's not exactly news, is it? That's always been the case. However, they also seem to be going through a very tense period with former allies, people

3:12who stood by their side for a long time now, but the tables seem to be turning, Dr. G. And even if they're not doing anything too official, because I guess they don't want to get in trouble with Rome, unofficially, there's definitely something going on. These guys seem to be getting involved with the warfare against Rome in some sort of capacity, and I'm talking about the Latins and what I have discovered might be the Hurnikans, which I really hate saying, actually, because it sounds like a Honia. It sounds like some sort of medical procedure, but these are their allies. And look, maybe that's how the Romans end up feeling about them, frankly. They're going to behave like this. Exactly. Yes. It's suitable for this moment. They come and they go. So Rome has had a lot of success under Camilla so far in 386 BCE. There's been some wobbly moments.

4:13Some tears were shed when the Romans saw their former allies taking the field against them. But we're not going to hold that against them. We like sensitive men on this podcast. So I'm not going to judge the Romans for feeling betrayed. Didn't stop them from trying to kick some serious butt on the battlefield. And the Valskians, unfortunately, instead of putting up a very good effort, were defeated by some treachery and some bad weather. And a propensity to not attempt to hold out for a siege at all. Yes, this became clear to Camilla when he attempted a siege and then thought, wait, why am I bothering? It doesn't really seem like they're going to put up much of a show here, so I'm just going to use ladders. And that was sufficient. Why, hello. Welcome to Valskiddy. Exactly. Yes. So he's had some success against the Valskians around Satricum and then in Satricum.

5:16And he was about to then go for gold against Antium, which is a very important city for the Valskians. I think the Romans have probably had their beady little eyes on it for quite some time. But he was interrupted, Dr. G, in our last account. The envoys had showed up in Rome while Camilla was negotiating with the Senate about any further military ventures from Nepete and Sutrium, which is modern day, Nephi and Sutri. And the Romans decided that it seemed somewhat urgent to help these people instead. And they are more to the north and they were facing problems with the Etruscans who the Romans also have historically had some problems with. So everywhere they turn, if Rome turns in a 360 degree direction from the top of the capital, it looks out, you know what they see in every direction?

6:19Some neighbor who doesn't like them or some neighbor that they don't like. And so looking north and seeing that there are Etruscans hassling other people, not every person who lives north of Rome is an Etruscan as it turns out. Some of them need Rome's help against the Etruscans. And what would Rome say to that? Why yes, we're here to help. Now I'm going to you flag something here for you, Dr. G. I know you've been wondering why is Livy giving us yet another episode in Camilissa's glory? I'm going to foreshadow something here. And I think this is where you're heading as well. There is going to be something not so nice on the Roman horizon in 385 and 384 BCE. It's going to be very tough for us to hear. There's going to be some internal problems.

7:21And it's possible that the way Livy is constructing this particular section of his work that he is setting up Camilissa as a bit of a virtuous counterpoint to what is to come. And that's why everyone's just getting along at this moment and it seems to be overly harmonious between Camilissa and the military tribunes with consular power that he's serving alongside because I forgot to mention Dr. G. The important thing about 386 is that even though Camilissa is very much in the spotlight, he is not officially a dictator anything. He's just a regular military tribune with consular power. Look, I think listeners, what we've just heard from Dr. Radd is tantamount to a confession. No, Livy. Livy, why? Because constructing some kind of narrative to suit some purposes.

8:21It doesn't mean that this didn't all really happen. No, even within the context of things that are plausible, the idea that six military tribunes from six very distinguished families are all just happily getting along and letting Camilissa run the show is stretching credibility somewhat. I can see nothing, Dr. G. Your theories were mean, Spurious. Spurious, furious, I see. That's right, exactly. And that's appropriate given the family that's been lost this wrong. And unfortunately, I don't have any strong, evidential basis for my claims because I've only got fragments. So Livy gets a win. I know, you're just dying to bring in this inscription you hinted about last episode. And it still hasn't go to that point. I know. I'm still waiting to bring in my inscription and it's a good one. Yeah, keep your eyes peeled. Listen, maybe, just maybe I might be able to finally get through enough of my narrative

9:25for Dr. G to bring in some of the source material that she's had to really fight to find. We'll see how we go. Yeah. All right, so let's talk a little bit about these people that have come to room for help. Now obviously, again, related to Camilissa in his glory, they is now officially under Roman control. It actually has been for a few years now. Well done, Rome. These places are further on than even they, but now that they is under Roman control, we're now talking obviously about the border between Rome and Atrean settlements being moved further north as well. So it would make sense that the Romans would be concerned about these particular locations now, particularly as these sites were seemingly in positions of interest to Rome in terms of their roots of presumably trade and communication with other places in that area.

10:33Yeah, for instance, if we're talking about Sutrium, it's about 50 kilometers north of Rome and 30 kilometers south of Ferturbo. So it's sitting in this sort of area which is well established as Fertravel. And it's an outpost area at this point in time, but obviously quite strategic. It's considered a bit of a gateway location into broader atturior. Exactly. Yes. And that is why the Truscans want to make sure that they have control of these areas because Dr. G would allow them to further their evil plans. And at the moment, they're under Roman control and Rome obviously wants to continue to hang onto them so that there can be no Truscan evil plans enacted against them. Well, fair enough. All right. Yes. So the Senate say, look, Camille, you've done a bang up job against the Volskins. I mean, the way they just trust aside their weapons and just handed themselves over to

11:35you, I mean, five stars. However, we do need you to focus on this conflict with the Etruscans. It is of interest to us all that these places remain under our control. So they give him the city forces which had been allocated to one of the other military tribunes with consular power, Quintias, had Dr. G. I don't know if you recall. Oh, I believe I do. Are we talking about the old men and those unfit to fight? Yes, it would seem so. We're going to send you north on this very important mission with the best men that Rome has to offer. Exactly. Agent experience. Exactly. So good luck with that, Camille. But, you know, if anybody can pull this off, Dr. G, I believe that Camille is that guy. Look, I have no doubt that Libby believes so. Now, Camille is momentarily a little bit disappointed in this allocation of forces.

12:36He would rather not be fighting with those who are not good enough to do anything else. However, he says, all right, well, I have to acknowledge the reality of this situation, which is that the disciplined, awesome men that are used to serving with me by now are unfortunately far far away. And I cannot wait for them because this is an urgent situation. They're off with the volskins. Therefore, I shall undertake this command because that's just the kind of beautiful chap that I am. His only condition is, however, that he wants for Larius, his unofficial sidekick, to come along with him and command by his side. So Quinktius and Horatius, who were the original guys who were in charge of the city forces and also in charge of supplies, are sent off to Volskian territory to go and chat to the forces that he's left behind and presumably tell them what is going on.

13:37Meanwhile, Camille is in Valerius. They're off to Sutrium. The Tuscans had already made some headway in this town and managed to capture some of it. As for the remainder of the town that the Truscans did not have control over, they kind of managed to barricade themselves because they're trying desperately to protect themselves against these invading forces. It's not going well, Dr. G, these are citizens that are trying to resist the Truscans here. They know that there are forces probably coming from Rome and they are hoping obviously that they're going to send Camille's because you wouldn't want to catch them. You want them to send their best, exactly, yes. Yeah, I want to catch a glimpse of that guy. So they're really just trying to buy time because they're hoping very much that the Romans are going to intervene and stop a complete disaster from unraveling him. Just as I said, he's going to split his forces between himself and Valerius. So they're going to send one of these forces around to try and launch an assault on the

14:43actual walls on the side of the town that is actually held by the Truscans. So what you might expect, perhaps. Now this is not because he thinks, well, this is going to be successful and that Valerius and this force are going to be able to capture it. It is, in fact, Dr. G, but a clever diversion. Foursing the Truscans to focus their attention on the attack that is coming from the Romans on that particular side and ease the pressure on the part of the town that is being held by the citizens who are obviously completely exhausted, totally strung out and have just barricaded themselves off. And therefore, if they manage to get control of that part, they then might be able to recapture the town kind of through a back door kind of entrance, I suppose. So under Camillus' strategy, the Truscans find themselves attacked an all-size Dr. G,

15:44the Romans managed to get inside the city. They're outside the city. They're everywhere. The Truscans are completely freaked out. They decide the only thing they can do is escape. So they decide they're going to stampede out the only gate that there were no Romans anywhere near. But unfortunately, it wasn't going to be that easy. There's a lot of slaughter. Camillus' forces that have managed to infiltrate through the citizen barricade, they managed to kill most of the Truscans that they found in the city. Valerius is meant on the other hand. They're not quite as heavily armed. So they decide they're just going to chase them. Chase them until their little legs give out as they flee the city. And they keep it up until it gets dark and murder just becomes more difficult. Ah, yes. Well, you can wave your sword around as much as you like, but in the dark, you really just don't know if you're stepping in or not. So with apparent ease, Sutrium is now under Roman control once more.

16:49Camillus' tactics, successful again. All right. So this inscription obviously does not give me any of the narrative detail that would make this a fun battle to think about. OK. But it does bond with together a couple of things. The first is, and this is just the translation. He did not allow the people to migrate to Vey. So we're going back in time already. After the city had been captured, he celebrated a third triumph after defeating the Truscans at Sutrium and subduing the AQI and the Volsky. Interesting. OK. And I don't want to read the next couple of lines of the inscription because I feel like that's jumping ahead in time at that point. OK. Well, now that the Romans have secured the situation at Sutrium, of course they now have to turn their attention to the other town that has come for their help, which is Nipete, which has already surrendered to the Truscans. Unfortunately, the Romans' quick help was not quick enough.

17:51So this seems like a much more difficult situation than Sutrium, which had managed to hold on until Rome got there. However, it's not just because the Truscans have managed to take control of it completely before Camillus arrives. It's also because there are traitors in the town, Dr. G. The Romans can't trust anyone these days, honestly. So there's a small group within this town that had organized a surrender to the Truscans. And I think if you look beyond the narrative that Livy's giving us here, it seems probably likely that there's a difference of opinion within this town about who they want to be allied with rather than a situation of traitors and faithful. That sort of thing. The Romans decide that they're going to see if they can try and use a similar ploy in

18:55order to regain control of this area. And that is by smuggling wood into some of the leaders in the town. And this is trying to obviously get the people within the town to be convinced that they want to cut themselves off from the Truscans and they want to help try and turn the town back over to the Romans. Can we do the old switcher-ru on them? Yeah, exactly. The leaders send backwards saying, hey, nice idea. However, I don't know if you've noticed, we're completely occupied by the Truscans right now. And they are totally in control of the city walls and the city gates. So this is going to be a difficult prospect that you've put before us. So the Romans therefore say, okay, okay, I see you, which you're coming from here. Perhaps what we'll do is we'll destroy the fields around the town first.

19:56You know, try and scare people a lot. That tactic might work, but there is no reaction. So the Romans decide they're going to try a different strategy. They basically start gathering up some tree branches and that sort of thing in the nearby area from the fields around there and they kind of bundle them together. And this I think is decided, I think this is basically trying to get them across to the walls of the city because I think I gather that there are kind of like moats perhaps that need to be navigated here. And so by having these sort of branches in bundles that kind of allows them to have like a bit of a pathway, I suppose, in order to get them close to the city walls at this point of time. And this is never been complicated, guys. Very complicated. Then, once they're close to the city walls, they're going to use a strategy that has worked

20:57for them just recently, Dr. G. Ladders. Ah, yes. Well, really tall ladders. I mean, I shouldn't just say ladders like it's nothing. These are scaling ladders. These are designed for Sieges. I think they actually probably would have been maybe a little scary if you were walking out to the top of them because I imagine them to be very tall. Yeah, definitely. If we look at what are some of the ancient walls that we have, particularly for towns in Italy because many of them are positioned on hills already. So the natural incline of whatever hill that you're on plus the wall itself, it's actually quite a tough ask to be like, how long a ladder am I going to need to get over that angle. Yeah. Yeah. And so by the time you're at the top of it, it's going to feel really quite unsafe, I would imagine. So I mean, perhaps this makes it even more surprising what happened earlier with the wall skins. Well, they were like, and we just went over with some ladders.

22:01Well, I think the thing with the wall skins and the pre in the previous episode is that Camilla was gearing up for a more serious Siege. It was just the fact that when he started to construct the various Siege works and whatever that he needed. And there was no reaction from the wall skins. He was like, hmm, I wonder if I should bother going through with this. It just seems like they don't care at all. And that's when he thought, you know what, just ladders. Ladders coming at them from every direction. And that seems to be what did the trick. And it works again here, don't you? No. Yeah. Ladders is all it takes. They manage to recapture the town immediately. Uh, Louvie. I have just a few questions. Once the Romans get inside, they order everyone in there. The nepacini included put down your weapons. The whole situation is going to be, and I think we've talked about this before.

23:02Actually, I think under Camilla's as well. The Romans are not going to kill anyone who is unarmed. They're going to leave that person untouched because I guess they presume that if they've put down the weapons, they're not going to be a threat and they're on the Roman side. The Etruscans, however, different story. They're going to be killed either way. Mmm. Mmm. Yeah. Now the Romans have to also find the traitors within the town who convinced people to surrender to the Etruscans in the first place. And these people were executed. Oh. Okay. So they found them. They did. Oh, okay. Yeah. The innocent people, as in the people that were pro-Roman, are allowed to obviously reclaim their possessions, resume life as normal. And just to be sure, the Romans decided to leave behind a little garrison.

24:04Mmm. Yes. Well, okay. Fair enough. Yeah. So the Romans have been wholly successful in their journey north. Yeah. These two places of ask for help. Romans helped both and have also reestablished or strengthened their foothold in these sort of outlying places that border on a true real. Okay. I mean, thanks to Camillus. Two cities retaken. I don't know more evidence. I really need to keep piling up here about Camillus. This is glory here. He said, he's able to march his army back to Rome in total glory. And he never mind you, Dr. G. This is the useless army. I was going to say these were the old guys. Well, I take that back for a moment because you've already established that you've mentioned that Camillus is quite old at this point as well. So he's basically just hanging out with his old buddies. So I feel like this is like the wily crowd where it's like, I think about this in terms

25:08of a sports analogy really because as I've gotten older, I have to play more clever because I don't just have the same burst of energy. I can't just waste my energy the way that I could when I was younger. And it's like, I've got to be canny. I've got to be strategic all the time. So I feel like Camillus is out here and he's out here with the old guys and he's like, all right, you reckon ladders? All right. Ladders it is. Very clever. Very strategic. Well, and I presume as well that some of these people would have had experience. It just might be that they've aged out, if you will. And they're just not the guys that Camillus would have chosen initially, but they've done very well, Dr. G. It's again remarkably easy to reestablish themselves in this area. Wow. Now at this moment, back in Rome. The Romans decide that they are still deeply hurt by the behaviour of their former allies,

26:14the Latins and the Honeechi. They decide they're going to ask, why have you not been sending us soldiers when we've been fighting so much recently? I mean, isn't that meant to be the deal between us? I thought we had something of an understanding here. Wow. They're really just going to poke the bear, are they? I mean, these are the guys that they've already seen wander off, fight on the other side, and then disappear. They're like, now we had an alliance. Well, see, this is the problem. And this is something that will continue to come up in Rome's history. It can be tricky to figure out exactly under what circumstances you are at war. Is this an official declaration of war or is this something else that someone is privately doing? What's the scenario and how is Rome going to respond?

27:15Because as you know, the Romans like things to be very formal and click at. And so they don't appreciate this uncertainty. And the Latins and the Honeichi, they don't make the situation too much clearer in that they decide to play the innocent card. They say, Rome, Rome, Rome. Hang on a second here. You can't hold us as a people, you know, as official states responsible, just because some silly teenagers decided to go and volunteer alongside the Vulskiens. That's a private decision on their part. And BT Dubs, we have 100% made sure that those people have been punished because I mean, they all died in the war with you, which you know, you might not have realized, but none of them actually returned home. So really the troublemakers, they no longer exist.

28:20So you've done your job on that front. And in terms of us not sending soldiers right now, well, it's really just because of our geographic location, we find the Vulskiens terrifying. And that's why we didn't help you in that situation. Now the Roman senators processed this for about 30 seconds and then say, I think it's time to start war with the Latins and the Nietzsche. They're clearly liars. Faithless liars. However, it certainly doesn't seem like the story's lineup doesn't because we've got first of all this account where they were hanging out with the enemy and then they disappeared. And you're like, OK, so they went home, but no, apparently not. Didn't make it. Never came home tragedy. Yeah, basically a whole generation wiped out.

29:21This is a tragedy. Yeah. So at least the Romans are savvy enough not to believe this, I suppose. And they're very much thinking, yeah, it's got to be war. These guys have stepped way out of line and we don't believe them for a second. However, unfortunately, it's really not the best timing. So the Senate are about to react to this, but then they restrain themselves for the moment. And this is where 386 BCE actually wraps up for me. Oh, interesting. All right. Well, I shan't on that case share the rest of the inscription because it's clearly too soon. Unbelievable. So the thing that this inscription does say is that Camilla says a border to triumph for these defeat of the Atroskin forces at Sutrium. And for his ability to subdue the AQII, which we haven't really heard about and the Volsky I. So he's taken at least in the his account two places, if not three.

30:27Is there any mention of a triumph? Well, he's had the triumph in my account. He's had the triple triumph before. I wonder where this inscription is from and is there any dating that we can ascribe to it, which might help to narrow things down a little bit. Look, it's definitely an inscription from from Rome itself. So it comes from volume six of the CIL. So comes from the center of town. But as for the date of it, that's harder to establish because looking at the image that I have, the image looks like it's probably more likely it's imperial just from like the look of the text and the style of the letters. But I don't know to be honest, I haven't gotten much further than that, but it doesn't look fourth century. Let's put it that way. Interesting.

31:28It would seem to me that this inscription is probably referring to his earlier triumphs because according to Livy's account, right after everything happened with the goals, he has that triple victory where within a very, very short space of time, he triumphs against the Volskins, the Aqueans and the Etruscans at Sutrium. And so this is a later encounter in Sutrium with the Etruscans. So it's obviously a city that is under contention at this point in time. It's obviously been an area that both Rome and the Etruscans want control of. Or as we know, this is a really tricky period of Roman history to figure out. I guess I wonder if maybe there's been a bit of padding of the material. I don't know. They are different stories in a sense, but in both situations, the people of Sutrium

32:33need help from Camilleus against the Etruscans. Yes. And the thing with this inscription is again, it is fragmentary. So we don't have the whole thing. But it seems to be suggesting that there is a layered approach. Like there's potentially triumphs for X, Y and Z. And here's a triumph for this thing. And here's another triumph for that thing. So it's just trying to sort of locate them within the broader narrative. And the thing is that because the narrative source material from Livy has been so favorable to Camilleus. And so emphatic about how much he was able to achieve and how quickly he was able to achieve it, there is the potential for these triumphs to get all mixed up as well, because there's just so much going on. And we clearly he was exceptional within a very short space of time.

33:36And the Romans really valued that. And those stories over time have become really important to Roman identity and the idea of Camilleus as this sort of refounding figure. So where this inscription fits into all of that, I'm not sure. Where does that sync up or deviate from what Livy is doing? I'm not sure. But it's interesting that there is something that is in a different type of evidence that's giving us a little bit of information about this period as well. Yeah, definitely. I think it is interesting that Camilleus is very active against the same enemies. But at the same time, as we know, that's kind of how Rome has been doing it for quite some time. They just keep fighting the same people. So it's not to say that there weren't multiple conflicts in a short space of time in this period. And how Camilleus was involved is obviously it is open to a certain extent.

34:40But yeah, it is interesting that we are dealing with yet again conflict with the volskins. And yet again, more trouble with the Allies. What are they doing? Are they allies? Are they not? It's the same kind of stuff that keeps coming up in this time period. And we know that this particular part of the 380s, I think, is some of the most uncertain in terms of what is happening because we are heading towards a major internal conflict, which whilst there are going to be aspects of that, that we also question again, has to be based on something that actually happened. There's some basis in fact for what we're about to talk about in 385. So yeah, it is interesting. But according to the Livies account anyway, I would put that triple triumph back in 389. Interesting. As in the victories, that's when I was in taking place because that was when he had that very sad little tree of refugees with their little teddy bears dragging along behind them. And he was like, put your teddy bears down, guys, don't you worry, I'll get you down back.

35:44Ah, yes, the taking, the retaking of the town in a single day. Exactly. And so, and this is the other thing is that we know the chronology is a bit all over the shop as well. So, a diadorous circula is our main counterbalance to this idea that we've got this easy flow of years because we're definitely missing years or we don't know when stuff happened. At this point in time, it seems like there is a 10 year gap between the dating systems that historians like diadorous are using versus where livy things were up to. And this is all built on the back of the fact that they and the siege of they had to be 10 years long. Yes, for very specific meaningful purposes, which has put out the whole dating chronology ever since then. So, we're some time in the 380s or the 370s. Yeah, and we also can't be 100% certain when this encounter with the Gauls happen.

36:48We know obviously it's somewhere in this time period. And it's probably only a few years off if we're off at all. But it's possible that in reality in 387, this is when the Gauls start going down. So, it is really hard to know what is going on. I mean, even Camilla's himself, as you might recall in the previous episode when he's giving that inspirational battle speech, he himself says, guys, it's the same people. We just beat them. We literally. Yeah, I mean, so they have some teenagers from our former allies. So, what? These are the same people. And this is where it gets confusing, of course, with this whole unconditional surrender thing as well that happened in the previous year with the Volskians, at least the forces, Satricum. And I must admit, I find myself getting really confused between Satricum, Sutraum. What's going on here? But we did also have a moment previously where Livy makes this comment about how Camilla's

37:52wraps up things with the Volskians in a previous battle and he makes it sound really formal and over. And it's clearly not. So, it's just very confusing to try and figure out how all of this works. And that's the thing. No matter how many times the account that Livy gives us seems to indicate something very formal about the way that the Volskians are surrendering, it's obviously not a forever. It's not a promise that the warfare will continue. Like the famous song. Yeah, it ain't over till it's over. Yeah, it's right. So, this means that we're up to 385. It does. And this is going to be a very picky. We may never see 384.

39:09Welcome everybody to a brand new year in Roman history. So, Dr. G, who are our magistrates for 385 BC? Oh, boy, I've got a whole list of them. So, we've got military tribunes with consular power first of all. Actually, I don't expect consuls anymore. What are consuls? We'll get to them eventually. Allious, manliest, capital-linus. He's been in this role before. And we have Publius Cornelius. We don't know the rest of his name. Possibly military tribune previously in 389. Titus Quintius Cincinnati's capital-linus. You may remember this guy from previous years, such as... Well, maybe a couple of years ago. Lucius Quintius Cincinnati's capital-linus. Oh, and just they're just swilling about. Brodler's probably the Quintian. Yeah, Lucius Papyrius Curse.

40:11We've also seen him before. And potentially, and he's in big brackets, nice Sirguius Fardinus Coxo. I do remember that name. He was also come up before. Now he's in a highly doubtful situation because Broughton has put him in brackets. So, there is also a dictator listed for this year. And just to warn everybody, it's not who you think it's going to be. What is no Camille S. Oh, my God. How is it possible? It's almost like he's taken a short holiday because he doesn't feature in the list at all. He's come back with all of the old guys. And be like, you know what? Taking a bit of a breather. So, our dictator is Orlius Cornelius Cossus. Previously was a console in 413. So, he must be getting on a bit. And we'll see what happens to him. And his master of the horse is Titus Quintius

41:13since the artist's capitalitis C, C above. So, one of the military tribunes gets drawn into being a master of the horse. Interesting. Yes. What this might mean in terms of a narrative is that anybody's guess. I can tell you exactly where this guy sits into the narrative. So, 385, Dr. G, is going to be a big one. I think we'll probably just set the scene a little bit here. So, a legendary year, but not for good reasons, really. Rome is going to continue to face problems with its neighbors and its former allies. So, his problems obviously have not gone away. You might recall, I just said, the Senate restrained themselves from going to war against these faithless straighters who were the allies for a really long time before this. And that is because of what ends up developing on the domestic front.

42:13And it's all going to focus on a very elite, very famous patrician that we have come across before. And that is Marcus Manlyus, capital Linus. Oh, Hazard, I have source material for this. I thought you might. Now, I'm going to give you a little bit of context for this guy because it has been a little while since we talked about him a little bit not that long. So, Manlyus is from a family we've talked about a bit up until this point. He had been consul in 392. Yes, that's right. I said consul. It's red, but it happens. Yep. He had some distinguished military accomplishments on his resume. He had been awarded an avatio for a victory against the Aquins. So, there you go. Now, most notably, he had come to the fore during the whole incident

43:14with the Gauls. This is the guy when the Gauls are trying to scale the capital line where the core of the Roman forces are holding on for dear life. He's the one that finally wakes up in the middle of the night and starts kicking the Gauls off the hill and wakes up everybody else. So, that Rome remains technically kind of unconquered in a complete sense by the Gaulish forces. So, he's had a pretty glorious moment in his not too distant past. He is very famous at this point in time because he basically saves the capital from the attack. Although, really, the geese are the ones that should get the credit. I don't think he would have worked enough if not for the geese. I was going to say, he definitely can't take all of the credit because it was the honking of the sacred geese.

44:15He was the one who woke up and realized something was going on. And he was the one who first pushed the Gauls back down off the hill. So, which is great news. And this is also the moment that leads him to gain the Cognoman of capital line-us. So, because he does this great deed and manages to protect the capital line hill, he is awarded this Cognoman. So, other families have it as well for other reasons. But the power of Cognoman are that they can just be like a kind of an additional name for somebody that is allocated. And as we go through Roman history, these become sort of branches of families as well. But he has this reputation now of being a savior of the city. And this seems to maybe have transformed his reputation to such a degree that mere few years later, he maybe has slightly larger notions for himself than he should.

45:20Yes. And this is interesting actually that you bring up his name as well. Because I think even though he does obviously have this very famous moment, it is believed that he in reality actually had his Cognoman because his family recited on the capital. And that may have been why he was one of the people who decided to stay behind and be part of the forces defending Rome, or at least defending the heart of Rome and the temples and that sort of thing from the goals. So, there's a bit of debate about that name, but I totally agree with you that by this point, just a few years later, he is incredibly arrogant. So much so that he looks down on all the other petitions. And they're pretty arrogant. I don't know if we've established that in his butt cuts, but they're pretty arrogant group. So for other people in that group to say, whoa, that guy's arrogant, that must mean something. It is a big call to be like of all of the arrogant people that we know.

46:21This guy in particular is the most arrogant. But it seems that he is a crew quite a reputation for himself. And I'm interested in how Livy might navigate this because part of the discussion about Marcus Manlius is that he is able to start paying debtors and paying people out of debt. And somewhere along the line, his petition credentials have translated into exceptional wealth. And this may be something he possessed before the moment with the sacred geese or maybe something that he's sort of developed over time. Since then, I'm not sure. But he ends up being in a position where he starts building a reputation for himself through enabling other people to get out of their debts. And this becomes a bit of a problem.

47:22You're getting aware of yourself, Dr. G. I don't know if I'm getting well. Yeah, Livy would never cut to the chase like that. There's so much more of a buildup. I'm just putting it out there. No, you're absolutely right. Those are definitely the major beats of his story. But Livy really wants to build up to this. And I think that's because of the way he wants to contrast Camilleus and Manlius. Now we get to the heart of how he's been wasting our time with Camilleus. Wasting our time with all that glory. But essentially, Manlius has this inflated idea of who he is and what he's done. Although, obviously, it's hard to overstate that you single handedly saved the capital and the citizen of Rome nonetheless. His attention, I think, is particularly focused on Camilleus. And this is the relationship. He feels that he is just the most awesome guy alive because look at what he's done.

48:25I mean, who else can say that they saved the capital and the citadel? I mean, this is so important to Rome. And he feels that he's been very successful in other aspects of his career. And yet, when he looks around, he feels there are other people that are doing better than him in terms of their reputation. And just the way that they've been established, obviously, by fellow Romans. And Camilleus is the person he's particularly fixated on. And he really dislikes the way things played out in 386 BCE. Which was that even though Camilleus was just a regular military tribute with consular power, he hated the fact that all of his colleagues just basically bowed down and acted like Camilleus was effectively a dictator by taking orders from him and letting him call the shots. This is really plaguing him. And he's like, guys, have you not noticed that Camilleus wouldn't have been able to swoop in and help kick the gals out and reestablish Rome if not for my act?

49:36My act is what set all of this in motion. Therefore, Camilleus is nothing compared to me. How dare you not be giving me more attention and be looking at Camilleus in this way that he somehow has earned this kind of deference even when he's not officially a dictator. It's really eating away at him. Oh, look, I mean, I feel for the guy, but I'm not sure that he's justified. Oh, he goes into even more detail. He points out that Camilleus only comes back onto the scene in Libbyland when the gals are about to receive their payment when a transaction is taking place and pieces being discussed. But, manly-as, manly-as was involved in the real fighting, in all the confusion, the darkness, when the gals were aiming to destroy the Rome and their blood was up.

50:36I mean, what? And then he starts to point out that, look, I know that there's been some kind of military success achieved under Camilleus of late. I don't know, whatever. However, why is Camilleus being glorified so much for having conquered all these places as if he did it single-handedly? I mean, what about the soldiers? They seem to be being overlooked and they're the ones that are really responsible. So this is the train of thought that he is trapped in in 385, isn't he? All right. Just to put this in context, listeners. Well, Dr. Rad was embodying Marcus Manly-as and his sort of tirade of jealousy. I'm just taking a quick look back through my notes just to see if he'd bothered to hold any political position since 390 BC when the sack of gals happened.

51:37And no, I mean, he doesn't seem to have tried to maintain a political profile. I think he just decided that that was it. That was the moment that he was going to dine out on that story for the rest of his life. But, you know, he's not a military tribute with Consular Power. In any of the subsequent years, he's nothing. And I like to. What's your contribution? Well, you woke up because of some geese. And we're not even sure they were geese. They were definitely sacred. They were the bird type. But you're telling me, buddy, that like five years out from that situation, you're mad that the guy who turned up late to the sack of gals has proven his worth on the battlefield multiple times since then. Now you think Camilla's proven his right about it. So that convenience for Dr. G, just as much as Livia turns out.

52:38I'm not saying I'd run an unbiased narrative. I certainly would. Look, this is all obviously really trying to establish Livia's didactic purpose, if you will. He is obviously trying to teach a lesson in the way that you conduct yourself. If you're in the position that these men are in, even though Camilla is highly successful, if we have to believe Livia's account, he doesn't get above himself. Whereas Manlius is someone who living acknowledges is a hero and is a great man. He has a huge ship on his shoulder and feels that he deserves more than he has been given. And actually, specifically, it's in leadership. Perhaps he expected people to turn to him more after everything happened with the gals. And therefore he's been overlooked and Camilla's been reelected in that time period.

53:43And he hasn't. I mean, it's all this stuff that's eating away at him. And he is, and I'm going to quote my translation directly here, impetuous and passionate nature that end up being his undoing. And this is what Livia is going to be drawing attention to. And I guess this has something to do with the way that in general, the Romans sort of conceive of human nature, which is that you are born with these characteristics and these tendencies. And they are always there. It's a question, I suppose, of how they're going to come out. And how your life is going to go and what situations arise as to how those qualities are going to reveal themselves. And so I guess Livia would probably be picturing this as being the way that Manly has always was, but the way that events have played out, it means that these flaws that he's always had are going to be his undoing.

54:43This might be the suspenseful note on which to wrap up this episode. Very nice, Dr. G. I might add one final little detail as a bit of a tidbit for our listeners. Is it this point that, as you've highlighted, he decides to turn against his fellow petritions? Oh, well, I can only imagine that's going to go really well. I look forward to discussing that with you in much, much more deep. Over the next several years, I imagine. Oh, boy. All right, well, sounds like fun. I'm looking forward to it too. All right, Dr. G. And that means it's time for us to do the partial pick. All right, Rome, you could win 50 gold eagles. But to do that, you'd have to score 10 eagles in each of the five categories,

55:47which we've chosen, and I'm beginning to wonder if we chose them specifically with your failure in mind. Hey, we get to have more fun that way, I guess. So the first category is military clout. Well, definitely. I mean, the ease with which Camilleus was able to establish Roman control or reestablish Roman control, I should say, over those two cities, I mean. Yes. Powerful stuff, Camilleus. Yeah, look, I don't have any qualms about any of that. It all sounded like very smooth sailing. Thanks for being. Very smooth sailing. I guess that's a 10. Lots of atreskins dead. That's not good. Yeah. So top marks. Yep. Oh, 10. You're going to give him a 10? Well, they didn't. There wasn't any quibble about anything. Was there like there was no hesitation at the walls? Well, to be fair, they weren't faced with their former allies right in front of their faces,

56:51consorting with the enemy. I mean, that's what really got to them before. I mean, I think people who hold the Romans up as the Romans, up as this epitome of masculinity, overlook how sensitive they can be. Yeah. Poor guys. There's something like seeing your allos on the wrong side of the battlefield. I'm like, what? Yeah, so I'll take the 10. I'll take the 10. Deplomacy? Well, I mean, usually I say that warfare doesn't go well with diplomacy. However, I don't know. Do you see the Romans rushing to help these places that are obviously under their control diplomatic? I mean, they literally drop everything to go and help them. They didn't even bother to get the good forces. Just like, come on. Come on, you 70-year-olds. Let's hit the tracks. Come on, Boris. We got to get back out there. It's a dead army over here. Yeah, look, I suppose.

57:51I don't want to give it a full sort of weight of diplomacy because I feel like that would involve negotiations. But in the sense that they do receive a call for help and they do step up. Obviously, they're in their own interest to do so. But they are helping other people. So maybe a five? Yeah, I feel like that has to count because I mean, look, there's a hefty dose of self-interest. I won't deny that. But I still feel like it is diplomatic to go and help these people rather than pursue the other several avenues of warfare that are open to it at that time. And this is why you have six military tribunes just in case. Yeah. All right. Expansion. Not really, I feel. I mean, these are places that they're reclaiming. They're not exactly expanding into. So it would seem.

58:52All right. So we're to us. Sadly, there's no standard bearer, Camilla's union. In this particular episode, like they was in our previous episode. Yeah, look, and not even a story of somebody going ahead with the letter and being like, I did it, guys. I took it myself. That's right. Yeah, we don't really get a lot of specific detail just. I mean, I'll give a special shout out to the citizens that barricaded themselves into a part of their town to wait for the rumors come to the rescue. That would have been difficult. But I don't think I would describe it as weird to us. And it's also not technically the Romans who are doing it. Correct. Yeah. All right. And finally, the citizen score. It's not great news if you're an old guy in Rome because you're like, wait a minute. I wasn't expecting to be going on a four-smart at this stage of life. But they are getting to relive those glory days. And server alongside Camilla's, is there a greater honor?

59:54Eh. I mean, the ease with which Rome seems to take this town and deal with the issues, it doesn't sound like they lost a lot of their own men according to the way that Livy is painting this story. And they get to come back in glory. Oh, that's true. Potentially a triumph, depending on your source. I don't know whether we should factor in Marcus Manlius, Capital Linus at this point in time. At the moment, he's just an arrogant douchebag, but then all the protrusions are a convict douchebag. So is that really any different to any other day? But he's also not specifically being a douchebag to the other citizens. No. In fact, it's rather the opposite. He's about to be a douchebag to the protrusions and be really nice to the plebeians. Hey! Yeah. Where? Yeah. So I don't, even though the internal conflict is not necessarily good for Rome.

1:00:58For the citizens. Yes. Well, but that sort of remains in the future a little bit. It is a little bit of a douchebag. I think it might still be a zero. But the victory. The old guys, the dead zombie. Okay. Well, what score would you give them? Well, I just feel like it's got to be reassuring for Rome to have all this victory. And for Camilla's to still be unblemished in their eyes. So I'm not going to rate it super highly because it's not really something that's happening. I suppose to the citizens in a way. I mean, the citizens soldiers sure. But I still feel like it's got to be like maybe like a tree or something like that. Yeah. I mean, at least they went out and they didn't lose. Exactly. And there's no hideous tax burden or, you know, major financial disruption by any of this stuff that's happening. And they get their lines of communication held open and their lines of travel.

1:02:02So that's good. That's good news. Maybe more. Maybe I was underselling it. I think it's a three. All right. Well, Dr. G, that means we have a grand total of 18 golden eagles. If Rome keeps this up, I'm going to have to get a calculator in here. I do not have more than 10 fingers. They're doing so well. My goodness. Oh, well, I'm looking forward to our next chat so we can delve further into the tale of a manliest and what he gets up to next. Thanks for listening. If you'd like to support the podcast, you can find us on Patreon and Ko-Fi. We've also published two books on ancient Roman history. Rex, the Seven Kings of Rome, examines the different literary accounts of the earliest rulers recorded in Roman history.

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