Euro Leagues: UCL Semis set & Ashley Cole on coaching

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Hello and welcome to the EuroLeaks on the football daily podcast. So much to get into this week

will be dissecting Wednesday's seven-goal thriller, where Bayern knocked out Real Madrid to set up

a semi against PSG. We'll chat at Letti and Simeone too as well after they've knocked out Barcelona.

They'll take on Arsenal in their semi-final. Then we're going to hear all about Marie Louise

etter appointed this week as the interim head coach at Union Berlin, making her the first ever

woman to manage a men's side in Europe's top five leagues. We're going to hear from Ashley Cole

who's been speaking to BBC Sports about his new role as head coach of Chezena in Ceddy B. All of

that on the way in the company of Julian LaRose, Guillain Balagay and Raffa Onigstein. Hello,

guys. Thanks for having me and now I haven't got an initiation song prepared.

Well, come on. What are your karaoke songs when you go out for karaoke? What's your main song?

Let me just give you a reference. I sang if I remember correctly a bad bonus song. I think it was

an area from Raffi, Puccini area. I think Julian sang La Mola Plash by Nyagara. So, you know,

you could pick. Oh my goodness. Let me have a think, all right? Don't let me leave this podcast.

No pressure. Don't let me leave this podcast without doing something. Let's talk all things

football then. We've got to start with that incredible game last night. We'll come on to Arboloa

and Real Madrid in more depth in just a moment, but we'll start with Bayern. They look a real force

down there at the moment. Estella performance from Bayern's attacking players, particularly

Philip Lam wrote in his athletic column just before the match. Someone like Manuel Noia doesn't

come along every day. He ranks among the very greatest in football history alongside

Lionel Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo. Now, Raffa, you were there last night. That doesn't quite

ring true with the fast start, does it? I mean, it wasn't his greatest game, I think,

as fair to say. And it was so interesting to see because it really had effect on the team.

I mean, they came back quickly, but throughout the first half, even as late as I would say,

the 60s, 75 minute, they were a little bit more reluctant than usual to involve Noia in the

build-up. And that was because that bit of insecurity, that bit of sort of second guessing had

crept into the game. And that was really hard for the defenders to deal with because usually,

yes, he makes the odd mistake, but not after 33 seconds against Real Madrid in a quarter-final at

home. So it took the team a little bit to understand kind of this new reality, at least for this

particular game. And it made Bayern's build-up a little bit more difficult when Real Madrid did

press. It didn't press very often when they did. It looked really dangerous because of those issues.

But, of course, in the end, that game will not be remembered for one of Noia's mistakes.

We'll be remembered for the seven goals, for the kind of sea-saw Titanic battle that we had.

And, of course, the red card and so on, but just in terms of pure drama and excitement,

at a place that doesn't always get so excited about football because they're kind of used to winning.

It's up there with, I think, with the five biggest games in Bayern history, at least at

the early answering in the last 20 years or so since it was built. A night that would be remembered

forever because it was Real Madrid, because of the way he went, and because of that fantastic

final sentence to that story provided by Michael Elysse. I mean, to finish off a game in a tie,

what better motion, what better attacking move can you do? And there's a lovely commentary

on German television that said, Michael Elysse is picked up the ball. He doesn't want to go to the

corner flag. He wants to go for goal. And that was just amazing because usually you wouldn't really

see that kind of action in the last 10 seconds or so because the smarter play, if you will,

would be to just to wind down the clock. Let me take your step back and talk about the spectacle

because in the last week, I've been immersed in the Bayern Munich world, thanks to Raphael

Honextain, who first, after the game at the Santiago Bernabéu invited me to that amazing thing that

happens in a central hotel when Bayern play away and sponsors are invited, VIP are invited,

fans, and they mix with the players, literally the mix. The players walk around the tables and you

suppose to, what is it? Everything is on the record until the CEO makes the speech and after that,

off the record, whatever happens there stays there. So that was the first one. And then, of course,

I've been talking for different reasons with people that Raphael introduced me to. And I went to the

game yesterday as a fan and, you know, throw away the computers, the phones. And I sensed,

first of all, such an awe and I would say even admiration, certainly respect from Bayern Munich

fans towards Real Madrid. You even got Oli Honextain and that Real Madrid is bigger than Bayern Munich,

which is something big to say. But yes, the atmosphere was brilliant from minute one until the end.

It was noisy. People stood up. So this is the most comfortable business area where they put you

so far. They don't put you like chairs. The food was incredible. It's a comfortable stadium to go

to. You can walk through the corridors, but unlike, say, the NBA, nobody's in the corridors while

the game is on. Everybody's focused on what's happening. And the emotions are very, very high on

my right and left and front and back. And of course, you could, you could follow the, the goal

and the, and they're, they're amazing. T for with somebody holding a ball. And what was the,

what was the saying? It's in our hands. It's in our hands. It was just, as I'm

expected, an incredible place to do it with. Surrounded by people that didn't hate the rivals,

didn't insult them. Just worry no. And of course, when that first goal comes in, it's like a big,

you know, taking a big breath. And after that, everybody won on a, on a, on a roll of emotions.

It was just fantastic. The game had absolutely everything. But you have to give the fans

the ability to just make the whole thing even better. Jules, what did you make of it? Because you

would have known that the opponents of PSG were coming from that particular match. And I bet you

couldn't believe how ding-dong it was. You know, backwards and forwards that particular match last night.

Yeah, especially the first half. I mean, we saw in the first leg and there was no reason why

this second leg would have been different anyway, because it was still very much in the balance

even if Bayern were, were favourite. I think the red card obviously changes it all. I think

Robert really did a lot of really good things in there. I think maybe Bayern were not as intense and

not as spectacular maybe as what they did, especially in the first half of the Bernabéu last week.

But overall, it was, yeah, it was, it was two great teams with slightly different styles,

just going each other all the time. The second half was a bit more control and it had to be

anyway. But that front three of Bayern is just so, so good, right? Even when Luis Diaz doesn't have

the best of his games, even though Leicester's an external fellow and Mendy defended quite well on him

to be fair, but then still your front three score a goal each and then there are a level this season

in terms of goals and the season. Performance is overall, but also in pressing and

counter-pressing where they don't have the ball to such an exceptional level. I don't mean to ask you

to put a negative spin on things here, Raffa, because when they have a performance like that last

night and they've made it into the last four of the Champions League, it seems a strange question

for me to ask here, but do they have any weaknesses? Well, first of all, I think just to pick on

something that Julian said, José Quimich agreed he said it wasn't our best game. We had to

kind of go through our struggles and then the company talked to him and half-time and said,

stay calm, just keep the ball, switch it around a bit better and the chances were calmed.

That's exactly what happened. I mean, Real Madrid defended the last 20 minutes. There was so deep

and Bayern just needed a bit of patience and of course having the extra man helped as well,

but you felt that the longer the game was on going on, Bayern had more and more control.

They have weaknesses, of course, because the system is very high risk. They try to press high,

then they try to win back the ball in counter-pressing and if you play through them and if you have

players like Real Madrid have, with not many teams have up front, they are to a point you cannot

defend them in those spaces. You might defend them if you play six in the back in a role

and condense the space, but if you leave spaces for these players, it's almost inevitable that

they will create chances, but that is the price you pay for the dominance. The dominance cannot

exist without you being very far away from your own goal, otherwise you cannot dominate in your

position half. So you take that risk and so far I would say if you compared to last season when

Inter knocked them out at the same stage, I think Bayern has, it didn't look always like last night,

but I think on the whole in the whole season they have more control and they've been able to

have a bit more balance and it's not as open as it used to be last year when they've played

men, we've been marking the whole time. Now I think there's more balance, but of course if you have

players like in Bappé or Vini Junior and PSG have similar profile players up front, they're going

to create problems, but I think what saves Bayern and what makes them superior to many sides is

the structure. They can rely on the structure, they don't have them Bappé, I don't think anyone

has them Bappé, I think he is the best player in the world right now and it doesn't matter to me if he

wins the World Cup or not, if he doesn't win the Champions League, I think in terms of pure talent

as a footballer, I don't see anyone else in the world right now that reaches him. PSG are very

similar though in their qualities, but Bayern is more about the collective, of course they have

released, say of course Louis Dias is a great player, Kane is a great player, but they don't rely on

these players to be individualists, they try to build a platform for chances to almost kind of

be created methodically and logically and that's how they suffocate most teams.

Dominance can be confusing when you're just looking at it as a neutral and don't go into detail

on the game and I think most people would agree that Bayern Munich is able to go through,

but I can tell you that having been at both games, there were not that much difference with both

sides and you can put a very clear argument that Real Madrid could have gone through, from the

moment that you think that Noja was MVP on the first leg for instance and looking just at the

second, the fact that Real Madrid defended deep and even deeper, especially after Camarminga got

sent off, doesn't mean that they didn't create chances, they had one bigger chance, more bigger

chance than Bayern two and three, he was, the expected goals were Real Madrid were ahead as well

and he could have just gone if he wasn't for Noja that saved to Mbappe, he could have been

that Real Madrid goes through and then at some point we can talk about the Camarminga sending off,

which doesn't define the tie and certainly is not the reason for Real Madrid to be knocked out,

but two of the goals that big goals came after he got sent off and I would just say one thing,

referee didn't know Camarminga had one yellow, if he did he wouldn't have given him a second yellow,

you have had unlike players being sent off just for that thing of carrying the ball away for

few meters when he wasn't really stopping a counterattack or anything just slowing things down a

little bit and in fact when he gives him the yellow the second yellow he tends around and he's just

buying the players that remind him that he had one already so that's okay, that's a red,

spoil of things a little bit, but I felt and Michael Alicia said that after the game that Bayern

already were on the app and perhaps would have taken the game maybe at extra time, he would have

given us half an hour more, but there the referee I think he made a big mistake.

Let's talk Real then, that's looking at potentially finishing trophilist this season on the game,

something that they've not done much at all just the fifth time this century if that is the case

out the Champions League and the domestic cups and now nine points behind Barcelona and the

Liga. Is it hard to imagine Arbeloa actually surviving this because I can't think of many

Real Madrid managers who would get that pass? Let's start with the president of Real Madrid going

to the changing rooms after the game's insane to where the shared of Real Madrid is a privilege

but it's also responsibility and many of you have not given us that responsibility, you haven't

been at the level that you should be. This is a story that has just come out by Fermín de La Calle

who is very well respected journalist based in Madrid and close to Real Madrid, which tells you

everything you need to know. If the president thinks that way, it doesn't matter that actually

some fans would keep Arbeloa on. Big decisions have to be taken. Who replaces Arbeloa we will see

he's got another year left in his contract. I took a picture of him in the bus on his own looking

into the horizon just thinking like that was the chance that was the moment I go into the semi-finals

perhaps as they maybe that's what he had in his head but certainly it's hard to think of him to

continue and what's one name that has been put into the equation in the last few weeks that

that's where Jules has to give us more. We heard about club we heard and it is somebody that

certainly Florentino Pérez would like to have at Real Madrid. We heard about Pochettino but the

shams is one that has been mentioned recently so what do we say Jules? Yeah we said that he's

obviously right now focusing on the World Cup it's last competition with France but then after

that he's eager to go straight into club management again I mean he's not ruling out another

national team although it's a bit difficult you know for the language barrier if it's the language

that he doesn't speak but it speaks English not so much but Italian and Spanish because obviously

he played in those two countries he played in England as well but before short time. So I think

you know I think obviously for Armageddon come knocking it'd be super interested I'm sure I think

he's a great manager for sure is he a bit too conservative for for Armageddon maybe but in a way

I think he can also be very pragmatic and that might suit this squad maybe so I think this is a

very very interesting one the only thing he... Not sure what Biddy would think of that though? Yeah I know

I know I mean Killian would be very happy obviously so we'll be sure many fellow Mendi maybe not so

much as well the only thing is if France let's say good really fine the World Cup semi-final final

in whatever he won't be available before late July really which maybe in terms of preseason and

everything I'm sure they can find a way but it's maybe not ideal that he would not report on the first

day of preseason back. That's what I was going to ask you actually because we talk about these

managers who are getting a good reputation during the World Cup or or your rows or any major tournament

during the summer but they are instantly a disadvantage aren't they and that is that's going to

be the case for Diddy Edition. Yeah I think that's the thing but then again he could have one of his

trusted guys coming over and and getting the team to start the preseason the fitness work

you know the running things like that there might be a way to do it and also France might be

early earlier than I'm hoping or they're hoping and then this might be slightly different dynamic

I don't know but I think certainly in terms of tactics but again he's in his own style I'm not saying

this is Ramadrid's that would suit Ramadrid style and expectation from the fans and from the club

etc but he's a he's a wonderful coach there's just no doubt he's just his football is not

really a cup of tea here we discussed it a lot especially during big tournament especially at

the last euros but he's still very very good and highly rated for sure. I would love to see Diddy

Edition at Ramadrid and one month into the 10 year both the fans and Flontino Paris saying

this is not this is not Ramadrid but it was it was a question for you would be a better version

of what we saw yesterday maybe the champs can do that I don't know I'm not sure I'm not sure

but I want to pick you up something that you said game could it be that Flontino Paris's words

could be interpreted not so much about the quality but about the behaviour of this Ramadrid

team because that was the reaction in Germany as much as there is a respect and admiration and

expectation of this team to be superb there was a real sense of disappointment and maybe even

shardon for it about the reactions after the game and how petulant they were and I think there

was a suggestion that I saw that Flontino Paris was unhappy about that sort of behaviour rather

than the footballing performance he creates that behaviour you heard Judevellingham and Rudiga

others throwing lines like this is amazed this is this is this was a shame embarrassing against

the referee this game should not produce that reaction unless you've been told four years now

and that comes from the top that comes from Flontino Paris that referees are not helping us

they are not not not just that they are against us and so with that atmosphere is relatively easy

for players to especially after the game to look for people to blame and not looking at themselves

and looking at the referee so no I think I think he was actually talking about the fact as James

said earlier that for 16 years it's the first time in 16 years that they don't have any chance

at the league they won't win the league the Cup of the Champions League in two consecutive years

that hadn't happened for 16 years so that's big one one year is crisis two years is a disaster

so I think he was he was trying to say this you haven't been at the level that we expect of you

because they picked and choose the games you know they draw against Jirona lose against

Jose Suna and Jettafe and then they go on and beat Manchester City what's that about?

Paul is a culture that is not the right one and Arvelo did enough time to change it

Chabielon so tried but was they capitated from the top either so it's not an easy solution unless

you have a personality like a sed user like Pochettino or a strong man like the Shams

what about the wider footballing applications I mean you said they could have won they could have

gone through I guess that's true but I think if you leave yourself to be dominated through

180 minutes and possession it's more tiring and you cannot always rely on him puppet and Vinnie

and to an extent belling him to to save you don't they need to go back to a slightly more controlled

dominant style with a midfield also with fullbacks I thought the fullbacks are very poor throughout

this you know throughout throughout the tie I think you need fullbacks that go forward that create

at this level Ramanjuddon have that at the moment doesn't just need a bigger a bigger rethink

rather than just changing the manager in this structure you were talking about whatever

whatever kind of a structure one that that helps the players when the players are not at the best

but six champions league in 12 years so they yeah but it's still the same team it's still the same team

that won those champions leagues and can you see this team winning six champions six in the next 12

years but it's the same essence isn't it the best players around both together but I don't think

I don't see the smithfield I don't see the smithfield and see that these are the best midfielders in

the world there's no cross there's no cards in the mirror there's no more dredge in this team

that that's my issue I think that imbalance is really huge you have three players up front

who are absolutely sensational and then I would say the rest is is good but I think in that middle

there's there's quality missing you're not convinced here are you you're really not convinced

Ramanjud have such have set such absurd high standards that I think a lesser version of

Madrid in comparison is a bit underwhelming and I felt I feel that they haven't been

as impressive over the last couple of years and that's why they've been knocked out early

so if not if not did the ad Sean who is is is going to be my next obvious question

as I said they're trying to come and convince us not the word but they put out their

club will be interesting but of course he doesn't speak Spanish Pocetino's the one that is

he's waiting for as well he is waiting the Pocetino himself but but as per usual what is the

profile so having lost the battle if you like for Antino Pere to choose the previous manager and

Chavielonso that was José Angel Sanchez the number two at the club who every now and again

and comes out and says the same words as Rafis you said how about a structure how about doing it

together how about a collective answers blah blah blah and then refabinite it comes or Julen

Lopategi comes or Chavielonso comes now is lost his credibility after the disaster of Chavielonso

so I'm not sure that Florentino Pere will go for that profile but there are so many things to

correct as as Rafis says and Jules as well I'll add one more before we move on the link between

on the pitch between Vinny and Embape that's never worked that's never is what water and oil

they just cannot work together not sure how you saw that

every race live on BBC sounds on five live sports

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let's turn our attention to the other side of the draw then if you like so Arsenal beat sporting

one nil across two legs to progress to a second semi-final in two years they'll take on Diego

Simioni's atletico Madrid after they knocked out Barcelona on Tuesday Barça had a player sent off

in both legs at Raffinia called the match a robbery that it refereeing was really bad that was

post-match and how surprising then is Barça's exit but also I'm a bit torn here Gents because

it's great to see Diego Simioni putting himself back in that business end of the Champions League

will come on to Atletico in a second but I can't help feeling Giem that actually it's a big

opportunity miss for Barça because they've been playing so well under Hansi Flick haven't they?

Yes with the same problems that they showed last season and not really shorted I've seen somewhere

that Barcelona in the last ten years is the team that has got more players and tough in the

Champions League in the knockout stages of the Champions League it was easy to see that that

could happen and it happened in both in both legs of course I think out of the what would

be 190 minutes played 70 where we are with 10 men only it's the decision that Hansi Flick has

this you know as I had to manage a club he wants risk first of all he thinks the rewards are

huge and I don't blame either the sending off the bad defending or the high line for Barcelona

missing that opportunity yet that you're talking about by the way is the youngest side ever in the

quarterfinals of the Champions League 24.4 yes so that will be there for a few years I think still

especially if I mean continuous like this I blame the club every year they take in value out of

that squad every year I've got the bench which is worse a couple of injuries didn't help the young

Gabi's recovering Rafini especially after what he done last last season but having done so well

in the first half where they run the socks off and they scared Aledicomadir in their own ground

in the second half the collapsed they just didn't have the energy they didn't have solutions

and this is perhaps the biggest mistake of the whole tie to bring on the Vandoskin and Rashford

okay Fermin had to come off of the his injury but Ferrantor's was doing really well and then

to just didn't add anything at all it's the squad I think which hasn't held Barcelona to go any

further and it's a shame because you know Raju Hans who enjoys watching Barcelona

that's three of us Rafi has it is only three out of four okay I'm going to ask a question to

one person who did put their hand up and one person who didn't what about watching Aledicomadir

because there's that conception isn't there or perhaps even a misconception now that watching

Aledicomadir can be quite difficult because they expect of a Diego Simeone team to be quite

attritional quite stodgy at the back quite you know robust but this seems and tell me what you

think Jorzen Raffer this seems to be a bit of a different athletic out Madrid side doesn't it?

Yeah I think they've evolved a bit but they still had 29% of the ball in the Barca game and to be

honest Barca had enough chances to go and qualify and win the tie so yeah I think it's not

the kind of backing of the burst that we saw ten years ago let's say I think Simeone himself has

evolved I think his players are more suited to playing a bit more than the team that other squad

they had maybe ten years ago I mean I'm I'm very happy I don't mind so much about Simeone even the

rest of the squad I think Luke Mann has had an incredible impact since he arrived in January and by

the way he only cost 35 million at a time where we look at those high prices for those big stars

etc look at what that move is done for this team but I'm super happy for Antoine Griezmann who's

coming near the end now of his time not just Aledicomadir but also in Europe before going to MLS

but when you see still the kind of performance they can put in a quarter final second leg of the

Champions League like on Tuesday night with everything they could do and it was not perfect but

from the second assist on the go obviously but every time that he could ease the pressure on

Athlete beat the press from Barcelona to see somebody like him at 35 with such an incredible

flair and touch I think it's beautiful the problem is we don't really make them anymore like

Griezmann anywhere not just in France but also in Spain and places like that are not

enough certainly so it was still beautiful to see him at that level and now to know that he's

got at least two more games in the Champions League and maybe a third one obviously before he leaves

to go to different cultures and countries but I thought to see Griezmann in that kind of form

was wonderful I mean ironically the only clean sheet they've kept in Europe all season came at

the first leg in Barcelona so this is not a defensive team anymore the identity is a thing

is a bit of watered down it makes him much more exciting and interesting to watch but it makes

him also easier to beat and I am not sure they have what they have got what it takes to go all the

way but I think that can cause an arson that's looking as if they run out of steam a little bit

and create and have problems creating chances themselves I think they're going to make it difficult

for them and make it really really tough game but Atlético because they are not the Atlético

ten years ago where they just made it almost impossible for you to score and are a lot more fun to

watch and I think for a lot of neutrals and maybe the sort of side with the romance of Simeone and

Griezmann and so on where they said actually would be quite cool if they made the final you can tell

that Jules and Rafi watched Spanish football and that many many more don't because that's absolutely

right Atlético Madrid have moved away long time ago already one they won the league in 2021

they were a different Atlético Madrid so we're talking about a interesting creative tension

that's happening at the club so Apollo the investment fund one of the biggest in the world

have come in with the idea of enjoying good football so under their guidance even though just

they're only taking over they mentioned holders now I think it's 55% of the shares but they've

been behind the scenes for a few years and under the new director of football material in mind they've

been trying to bring players like Alex Baena, Julian Alvarez of quality and Simeone has got an essence

which is very difficult to abandon so when things get really tight you know what Atlético Madrid

are gonna do but mostly he's got to project something else so the problem is God I remember when he

went to see people are the all about 10 years ago at the end of training they went for dinner and

Simeone said I love what you do I absolutely adore what you do I will never do that that's not me

and that still is in his head which means that I'm not sure he knows how to make the team attack

better organized attack is not something that he puts too much emphasis on meanwhile it gets

given in this magnificent scenario he gets given fantastic players so there's still that thing

of of not getting to the Atlético Madrid that the owners won but still Simeone giving them the

chance to win titles this year but they are 22 points away from Barcelona so he's on a little bit

under pressure but this year a little bit less because of course they end the cup final on Saturday

semi-final so the Champions League too so they take on Arsenal in that semi-final

Rafini actually was to see him telling some of the Atlético fans that they'll go out in the

next round so that was his way of kind of just I don't know satisfy himself last night

Arsenal kept sporting to just one shot on target last night but they had just one shot on target

themselves what kind of game are we expecting all three of you starting with Jules?

Well I think the contrast between the Bayern PhD and the Atlético are some type of a massive

obviously we all know that I think it could be quite interesting tactically because we say you know

even if the essence of Simeone is still more be cautious first he would have the players to

play and to probably hurt Arsenal who are probably the best team out of possession in the world although

their presence hasn't been as efficient lately like their football in general hasn't been as good

as fluid as efficient but they're still so strong so solid so physical so tough to play against

I think for any team really and if they can recover a bit of the kind of football and level that

they had previously in the season like when they beat Bayern or when they beat Atlético Madrid

for in their home in the league phase then I think they could also progress through the final so

yeah there's one game that I'll probably will excite us more before he's played but I think both

of them could be really interesting. Rafa? Yeah I mean Arsenal is huge favour it's just as Barcelona

where huge favourites against Atletti in the previous round so I've got a funny feeling that

Atlético might might surprise him. Yeah it just feels like this is an opportunity for Simeone

to be Simeone and nobody will mone give the initiative to Arsenal we know they've been struggling

lately that may change by the time they meet but and then come to attack them I think there'll be

a lot of that but Simeone as I said fighting with his head said that the way to attack the way to

defend against Barcelona is to attack them well maybe if he does a little bit that against Arsenal

it'll be quite a balanced tie and a bit less interesting than the other one but still some to

keep an eye on. Looking forward to both of those semi-final matches when they come around of course

now we're going to turn our attention to something a little bit different. On Sunday Union Berlin

made history with the appointment of their new interim head coach Marie Louise Eta who is set

to become the first ever woman to manage a men's side in Europe's top five leagues so she replaces

Stefan Baumgart after a run of just two league wins in 14 matches. This calendar year leaves Union

Berlin 11th at seven points above the relegation playoff spot there are five matches to play

in the Bundesliga. By an Munich head coach Vincent company was speaking earlier on this week

about at his appointment. I'm actually really happy you know it's easy to minimize and say yes

she's just a coach like everybody else and of course I think that's how we we have to treat her

as colleagues but in the end it's something special and it's something that behind it opens a

lot of opportunity to little girls who are now maybe playing football and thinking hey maybe I

can just I can coach anywhere I can I can I can make a real career in this game and be successful

what I'm seeing on TV and I think those stories they're really important. This is a story that's

kind of come out of nowhere out of the blue for those who've been paying attention you know she's

made history before hasn't she raffered as the Bundesliga's first female assistant coach that was

what couple of years ago now coached unions under 19's team she's only 34 as well so there is

plenty of scope for her to have a great career so what are your views on it and how's it gone

down in Germany this I mean it's hard to think to generalize because you have some of the very

unsavory very dinosaur misogynist reactions on social media that are so loud that they almost

drown out the normal reaction if you were but the normal reaction has been fine I mean

that's people have welcomed it others have said let's not make too much a deal of it just see if

she can coach she if she if she can do a good job but I think Union Berlin is a good club for

this as you said they've done it before with her as an assistant coach they've broke the mold they

have a reputation for doing things a little bit differently I think their fan base will be fairly

open-minded and I think it's also a good opportunity because in terms of the table as you said

they are in danger but I think there's enough teams behind them that have bigger problems so

it's probably going to be a pretty soft landing for them and I don't think it's going to be a long-term

solution either they are talking to other coaches they will of course look at what she can do if

they team suddenly starts performing really well then she will get an opportunity I think to make

this permanent we have a permanent coach in Bundesliga 2 a female coach so there is

the taboo has been broken but I think most people see it as a as a thing that shouldn't even be

getting that much special attention and kind of look beyond the biology and the sex and look at

what what she can do on the coaching bench but for that to happen the system has to change so

it's a step for sure but the step between that and more woman becoming head coaches or managers

is huge and if you don't mind me personalizing just briefly I'm the chairman of a football club

in the 9 division in England and my dream is to have a good female coach to run the men's first

team but every time you propose that to a female coach they say and then what is not just somebody

coming out with that idea is what is the path for me to then become professional and the reason

this is in England I don't know so much in Germany but certainly in Spain as well the other thing

I wanted to say I'm very much looking forward to have woman in key positions in football including

being managers I'm just bringing about nothing to do with football but before women were admitted

at universities universities largely reflected male priorities and viewpoints and once woman entered

they started changing you know generous studies so just like family life care work social

inequality started gaining attention research broadened and generally knowledge became less narrow

on and reflecting more society and I've got the impression that if women were more present in

football in those positions we could see a different way of playing why not but we such a long way

from that before we had Corinne Diarkin France in 2014 who obviously coached the second division

a Claremont but it was the first time we had in one of the two biggest leagues a women coaching the

men and he went really well she said three years that I think they finished 8th 10th and 11th

something like that so the job was to keep them up and she did more than that she did better than

that and everything from what she did on the pitch in the relationship with the squad all of that

it was just also positive and I thought okay this is it now she left in 2017 but from now on

not just in France but surely in those other big leagues in the big countries we will see others

doing the same and maybe I was a bit naive or maybe the world was just not ready or Europe was not

just ready or the world of football was just not ready then to have another Diark so I'm glad this

is happening is this again can we look at it and think like okay let's hope that this kickstart

this more than where we threw in 2014 2017 in France I hope so because I would love

everything that the boy just said to happen to big first game for in charge isn't it

raffer again second from bottom Wolfsburg on Saturday Wolfsburg desperate for points so that's

a really big start yeah it is I mean Wolfsburg going freefall you know the winners of 2009

look as if they're going to Bundesliga 2 lots of investors behind him and this is the kind of game

that if she wins I think on Jona are all about safe so a big opportunity for her hopefully also

a bit of patience that's something that company mentioned that you know you said it's great

that she's there but hopefully she'll also get a bit of realistic expectations of how quickly

you can do things and so on as a new coach and just to correct myself I spoke about Bundesliga 2

but I meant of course Bundesliga 3 with Sabrina Vittmann at Ingolstadt she's been there for a couple of

years and it's a great coach who is seen as a real up and coming coach for a stop and no one really

talks about her being about her being a woman that much anymore so I think it can go quite quickly

but as game has said of course the overall numbers are still very very bleak for women in

so that's one to keep your eye out on then for Saturday Union Berlin taking on Wolfsburg in

the Bundesliga Marie Louise Etters first game in charge right we're going to finish the oro leagues

with this then talking of another managerial appointment and Ashley Cole was appointed

as manager of the Serie B side Chasena his first head coach role he's been speaking to BBC sports

Nizar Kinsella about his decision to manage a broad it's quite interesting this all about the

expectations of the club as we approach the end of this coming season the aim is to stand to play

us the aim is to get to Serie A but we've got to understand if we got to Serie A now in my opinion

we are not ready so we're not going to give up we need to push and the players have to believe

but you know we need to just find a better way of playing a style without the fans want to believe

in so I'm trying to get a picture of like what you were like before this opportunity came

were you like itching for a head coach role and like were you applying for jobs with your CV

LinkedIn all that stuff yeah turn about LinkedIn no I was getting kind of discouraged by some

opportunities or lack of opportunities some clubs are supposed to you know they like to throw the

you don't have experience and I'm like well I get what you're saying I agree with you but I'm

going to get experience like you know you've got a trust me as a coach so there is a massive

trust element an issue with that but as we said you couldn't have had much more experience in terms

of being a number two also your England career like it speaks for itself and you're playing

career so you're like what more can I add to this yeah being able to be well this is one yeah

I'm here it's a great place to be it's a great place to start I think

I'm not saying I was one of the first players to leave England and and gone play abroad there was

many many obviously that went before me but I took a leap of faith to come and

move to Italy and play in Serie A and I've loved that the owners who have kind of lived

similar background to me hard working graft and they also needed someone to believe in them

and give them a chance and that's where they you know now they've got to a real high level of

of work ethic and a place where they should be proud of how they've succeeded and they've

gave me the opportunity so we had a lot in common in terms of that of breaking down doors and barriers

and I don't think there's too many certainly black English coaches working in Italy so again

massive leap of faith from them and you know so I'm very proud to be and what about in terms

of moving to Italy as well do you know because English coaches might be looking at you and thinking

no maybe I should give it not just Italy but anywhere in Europe ago you know yeah well I would

just go if you're not getting an opportunity in England you know why not think about a different country

you know I think it's going to make you grow as a person as a coach as a manager you learn

different cultures as a different way of living different tactical insights from you know

going up against different managers there's always going to make you a better coach or a better manager

so that's actually called the New Chazena Manager with Nizar Canceler you can hear more from that

interview on the BBC Sports website so growing trend isn't it a British manager's going abroad

for opportunities Raffa yeah and I think it's great I think especially if you're a former player who

doesn't need the money who just wants to do it to learn and to you know start your career and

get the experience to go abroad widen your horizons I think English football can really benefit

from that and I have a lot of time for Ashley Cole he was a nightmare as a journalist to deal with

as a player because he was just totally not interested talking to the press but anyone who has

met him in a professional capacity on the playing side or people work with him have have great

respect for him and I think he could be a real talent I mean we don't know he might not know how it

goes until you actually there and you know test yourself but I think the fact that he's willing to

do that is is to be commended I've got mixed feelings about Ashley Cole when he talks about

leap of faith you don't need to have a leap of faith you need to be prepared and on one hand he's

doing it the right way I mean being the assistant manager to Frank Lampard to Lee Carlsley when

Rooney at youth level as well he's been coaching fine but despite the fact of having an Italian wife

and having been at room for two years his Italian is not good and to actually go to Italy

this happens a lot with the generation of players they're Ashley Cole generation that they think

they can do absolutely anything just because they were big and I think there is a two or three steps

we're forgetting there and I hope that he doesn't get burned out it's brave that he does it but you

have to really prepare to actually succeed at it Jules is yeah it's been a bit tough for him in terms

of result and Guillem is right with the language and I read another interview with him recently

where he said the biggest problem has been the language and he was always going to be anyway

and sometimes I think even young coaches not not just Ashley maybe not him but in general I think

underestimate a little bit the power of that communication I know it sounds obvious but I promise

you when you're any when you really want to work as a coach to what Guillem just said I think

you're sometimes ready to accept anything and and that communication is so important especially

I would say at lower league level when the players are maybe not as good as the kind of player that

Ashley Cole was or the one that he played with or even probably some of them that he coached when

he was an assistant coach before in England and I think if you don't have that communication

even even through a translator or even through an assistant it's not easy trust me and I think

this is also another problem that he will have to overcome if he wants to be successful in Italy

plus the weather and the food is always better so there you go so that's that's one reason

that British coaches should be looking abroad gentlemen thank you very much indeed thanks to

Jules Guillem and Raffa and as always thanks so much to you for listening and remember if you

haven't already you can subscribe to the football daily feed for a daily dose of football in goodness

on BBC set. Hello I'm Tyler West and I'm Alfie Watts and this is the detour the official companion

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