Eva Nash & Kate Rogan - Rogan Nash | Growing a creative partnership that lasts

0:00Hi everyone, I'm Katie Dawson and welcome to Super Creative, a podcast that delivers candid conversations with inspiring women who are thriving in business. Today on the podcast I speak with Eva Nash and Kate Rogan, founders and directors of Rogan Nash Architects, an award-winning residential architecture and interiors practice based in Tamaki, Makoto, Auckland. Eva and Kate met while studying architecture at the University of Auckland, went on to work in practices in New Zealand and overseas and in 2012 decided to start their own practice together. 14 years later they have built a business designing new homes, renovations, extensions and interiors throughout New Zealand. What I was really interested in with this conversation was the partnership behind the practice. In this episode, Eva and Kate talk about the shared values that have helped them work side by side for the last 14 years, deliberately keeping the practice small and hands on and

1:03what they have learned about listening to clients and working collaboratively. We talk about their approach to bringing architecture and interiors together, their creative process, how they reset the value of long-term client relationships and the importance of staying connected to the wider design community. This was a fun and easy conversation with two clever women who are very passionate about both design and the business they have built together. There are so many good insights here for anyone running a creative business, particularly around collaboration, relationships and building a business that supports the life you actually want to live. I know you all love my Corudo with Eva and Kate. After you have listened to the episode, please visit RoganNash.com to look at their beautiful award-winning projects and connect with them on Instagram at RoganNash Architects. I'd like to take a moment to say thank you so much for listening to this episode of Super Creative. If you could hit follow on whatever platform you're listening to this on or leave a review on Apple Podcasts or rate the podcast on Spotify, all of those things

2:09helped me keep making these episodes and sharing these stories. Please tell your friends about the podcast and if you particularly resonate with an episode and you feel like sharing on Instagram, you will really make my day. Right, let's get on with the show. Hi, Eva and Kate, welcome to my podcast. Hi, thanks for having us. I'm going to ask you to start by describing who you are and what you do. I'm Kate Rogan and I'm Eva Nash and together we're RoganNash Architects. Our company is an Architects and Interiors company focused primarily on residential. We do new builds and renovations, alterations, all over New Zealand. Yeah, we really like to do design. We really like to listen to people and we like to create spaces that improve their lives. Now, both of you have listened to this podcast before, so you know that I am a huge interiors fan enthusiast, sort of sit alongside on a work

3:15level, but I am just so full of admiration for women like you that have built a career in the creative design architecture, interiors space. I love that you are a duo. I love that you have been in business for a long time. A big fan of your work have been aware of it. You are award-winning. Everything you do is amazing. And as we talked about before, we have mutual friends with the material creative girls, who are friends of mine. And when I said to them that I was going to interview you, they were like, oh, they're so great. They're wonderful women. Oh, you've got to talk to them. It's so good. So I'm really looking forward to talking to you about your business and your creative journey and everything you do. Great. We think they're great too. Yeah, that is so kind of you. What an introduction. Well, isn't it cool? I love the fact that, and I mean, I wonder if it's a New Zealand thing or if it's a broader thing, but or just a design community thing, but how other businesses

4:16champion each other. And I've actually spoken it about on the podcast before. Like you working in the same space and you all love and respect each other on a creative level. And it's not that fierce kind of rivalry, but actually a real, what's the word I'm looking for? Come rattery. Yeah, we always think there's room for everyone. Absolutely. One's got a slightly different take on on what their style is or what the kind of work that they do. So there's definitely room for everyone. And the more voices that there are in our community, the better. And the more beautiful design. This is the thing, right? But the world becomes a more beautiful place. Okay. So let's go back. As you know, I like to go back, get a bit of background and I'd love to get a better background on you both, see you from how you met all of that kind of thing. If you could give us a little bit of an overview, that'd be wonderful. Well we both grew up in Auckland and we met while we were studying architecture at the University of Auckland. I was the year below Kate and we had a mutual friend that introduced

5:22us. She was in, well, she's one of Kate's oldest friends actually, but she got Glen Druffler at high school and then ended up in my year at university because she started architecture with us as well. So a mutual friend was kind of spanning across both years if you like, but that then meant that we had a great connection already. Architecture school, are you probably know, but architecture schools are a lot like high school and that you really know a lot of the different people and different year groups and because there's so many papers that you're all taking together, I guess you're all in it together. And so you tend to know people who might be a couple of years below you or in the same way a couple of years above. And the funny thing is how you just really do forge such strong bonds in that time. And I think even I would really lucky to meet each other then. Exactly. And after uni we both went off and worked at different practices, boutique, architectural practices in Auckland and we both travelled and worked overseas. Yeah, I used to work in London and Evis worked in New York.

6:24So we both have some great overseas experience. And then we came together after we had some great experience and after we became registered architects, we then made our company in 2012. So we've been in business almost 14 years. Yes, a while. It's a long time. Yeah, notivity is a big thing and particularly in a partnership. It's not easy sometimes and partnerships. It's like any kind of partnership that has the ups and downs. So 14 years is to be absolutely celebrated, isn't it? It's amazing. We agree. Yes, we definitely agree. It's a lot of ways it's like a marriage because you've got to understand and respect the other person and be there within their highs and lows and love them no matter what. You've really got to accept the other person for who they are for it to be successful. And also, I guess your business decisions affect your personal, you know, it's not just

7:25business, you know, like your decisions affect each other's lives. So you have to be thinking about that. Yes, and I think that's actually one of the reasons Kate and I have worked so well together and have lasted for such a long time is because we actually have shared values. And that's something that's been probably wasn't quite so evident when we were talking about going into business together. That wasn't the thing that we sort of discussed, but actually as we went along, we realised that we do have the same core values and that's meant that we've been able to go in the same direction and on the same path. That's cool. So tell me about those early days. It's 2012 and you go right, we're going to start a business. I'm excited. I'm excited. Wouldn't that be fabulous? Whatever our architectural practice. And I think in the beginning, it is really exciting and because even I have such a bond like she was saying, not only in our values, but also in the way we see design, we sort

8:25of see architecture and design everywhere. So for us, that kind of, it was so fun and had so much, I guess, collaboration and communication between the two of us and we could see such possibilities and so that was such a draw card between the two of us. So in the beginning, that fun and that communication and shared idea structure, I guess, really helped us to set up something wonderful. And I think in the beginning, Kate and I both knew that we always wanted to work for ourselves. That was something that we had always, like being an architect, we'd always thought that we wanted to be an architect. That was something that we both shared and then we both shared the idea that we both wanted to have our own business growing up. And so then we were a natural fit together and the timing just worked because the timing doesn't always work with two people coming together, but it actually did in our case, the timing worked perfectly, just aligned what was happening in our own personal lives, happened to align at the right time for us to go into business together.

9:26But you don't, it is scary at the start and you don't know what's going to happen, but you've just got to have a belief that you're going to make it and you're going to be able to do it. Did you come into the business with projects or did you sit there on day one blanks like right, we got to find some business that had it there. I would say over the entire time that we've been in practice, I've never seen Eva just think we were going to sit there and do nothing. So we had to do it together. Both of us are quite tenacious and both of us wouldn't think that that was okay to me. We would always be trying to strive further. And so at the beginning it was the first clients where really friends and family and we both got a good network of those people and probably who were very supportive of us. And I think probably our strong work ethic as well. We did have quite a lot of experience with Auckland companies already and so I think that that lent to our reputation too. So pretty much as soon as you started putting the word out that you were going out to get that kind of sort of type of action.

10:29Yeah, you make it sound easy but it doesn't feel like that at the time. I mean that's in a highly high level. And yeah, there was because Kate had decided to make the move earlier than I had but we'd been talking about it for some time before we did it. And so because we didn't kind of jump into it and decide tomorrow we're going to make this. We actually talked about it for about six months or even more before that. So we were in catering. Yeah, probably should have had some more foundational experience and research before, like before we joined in together. So it wasn't an overnight idea and also in it but it did grow and we also had one of the person that I previously worked for recommended us to a client which was one of our early clients and actually that person has we've just done a second project for the amazing a beach house and so we do have a lot of those sorts of clients where there are peak clients they come back to us which we really love because we form a great relationship

11:33with that client. And so probably early on the difference was that we took on some projects which was slightly smaller than what we were doing now. But I think we've looked at things with the design rigor and kind of at least we hope we have. So we're always thinking of things the same way trying to layer up different ideas, trying to bring something new to each project and trying to make each project sort of really about the client that we're working with. Tell me about those sort of early years or this journey obviously you've and they're all on the wall behind you as well. You've had some really significant projects. What were those first projects that you sort of started to get recognised for and sort of put your name on the map as it were? Well first of all we actually started working from home so that was one of the things that we did early on to. It really helped us financially set up our business just we worked remotely and came together each week to work and work from home and we had some really good processes that we set

12:35up from the very very beginning which meant that remote working became a natural part of what we did. So then actually I mean in recent times remote working has been so important but we had always had that as part of our business structure so it became it wasn't a major disruptor. That is quite early to set up like that isn't it because actually like you say it's very normal now but if you think back 14 years ago remote working wasn't as easy or as well now and even internet connections were different and sharing tools and things like that. I don't even know if Google Docs was around then might have been I don't know but you know like yeah but you could still do I think so much of that initial work because obviously when you're working with one other person it doesn't so reliant I guess on time and so we're still we would still come together and do design sessions and things like that and we were able to go away and do the work ourselves and I guess one of the differences from maybe

13:38I guess other directors or things like that is we always were really competent on computers and were really happy to do drafting and things like that and design so for our point of you you catch just get in and make it happen and do all the different facets of the job whether it's bookkeeping and those kind of things to how we're going to do the file sharing to who's going to do the drafting. So stuff like that it wasn't you can just make it work if you try hard enough you can make those processes work and that was what some of them was really important to us. And I guess that's actually continued all the way through because we are intentionally a small practice because we love to be hands on okay no I designed everything together and we like it that way because it's enjoyable and we also feel like it gets to be used to outcome for the client because it's both of our minds looking at the project not just one. There is something about collaboration isn't it and having someone to bounce ideas off and there'll always be a fresh eye looking at the work that the other has done or it's so such an important part of a creative process or it can be when you work in collaboration.

14:45And it's the design process but also taking a step back it's actually listening to the clients you've got two people listening to the client because people can say different things with their what they're saying by what their body languages or what the other if they've got a partner what they might be trying to say. And so having the both of us listening to those conversations is really we're found over the years to be really interesting and super valuable because we both see and hear different things as everybody does. So you've got two people analyzing or thinking about really how what the best solution is not just in coming to it from slightly different angles although obviously the same kind of lens. It's just a different brain right so you always going to take it's interesting you say that as I have been going through my own experience with an architect and you so I feel like that would be really valuable. I mean I've had a great experience with our architect but you know you go to these meetings they're so quick and you're firing questions they're firing questions at you and how you

15:46want to live or whatever and and all happens so quickly in the next minute you've designed a house you're living in for the next 20 years and you're actually the idea of having two people actively listening and thinking about that and actually I don't know maybe they did mean this or I don't know I actually think that would be really valuable. I think the funny part about it is it's just like you've highlighted it is there's no kind of right amount of time and there's no right way to do these kind of things but there's so much to be said for and you'll find it even when you listen to the podcast even when you listen to people talking the first time you listen to it you think oh they were saying this this was what this was the point they were trying to get across this was the thing they were saying to me and then you listen to it back and you say wow I really misunderstood what they were saying yeah that was quite different and so that's actually quite good is that even in those meetings when we're both listening even might say something or I can see she's because we obviously hang out together a lot I think oh she's clearly interpreting it this way I'm thinking it's this and we can ask a question

16:49immediately of them so you have that first moment just we're having those initial conversations which I think become quite sort of investigatory and that communications really important and then when we go away we're able to go oh it was really interesting when they said that what do you think that meant or how are we going to interpret that and that we're going to interpret that and so you have so much communication layered into the project and I think that really has quite a payoff when it comes to doing the designing. Yeah so going back tell me about those first projects tell me about some of those key projects and the really exciting ones that kind of set you up in those early days. Well one was the kind of we mentioned earlier where we've come back and done a second project for them and actually quite a few of our early clients we've now done second projects for like I'll be very early clients I mean not just the other ones that are on which also happens to us as well but they've become great champions of our work actually. We had a couple of significant renovations I would say and I think sometimes probably

17:53when you have those early conversations with people and it's beginning of your career you probably don't realise it's going to be that significant project that you're thinking of and you don't and so you do really treat them all like this the significant ones but the ones that stand out to me I guess were we've done one renovation to a bungalow which was really important to us which sort of had a pool house which was part of it you know it's kind of like a banner and a pool house and it was a reaction to this quite grand bungalow and then we've had another really important project which was a villa which we completely reworked. Yeah we've done a villa project that was really significant in terms of it did one actually both of these projects that it's describing have one awards but the villa and Ponson be that we've renovated in mid century style kind of ideas out the back that's been super significant and that was again one of the clients that have come back and we've just won another award for their beach house so which has been a great process and they're also a great champion of our work when I think when you get those clients that you develop

18:59a relationship with and then they begin to really trust you those are the projects that really mean a lot to you and feel very successful. Yeah they were probably significant in that we had a good opportunity to discover together our communication style how we were prepared to listen to people how we were prepared to bring our own design ethos to it and also how for us architecture wasn't just about the shell of the building it was about the other pieces inside and possibly everyone seems to have a different interpretation on what that could be but in a weird way we see designed through all the things whether it's the clock on the wall or the rubbish bin or whatever or the how the roofing is made or how the building looks from the street and so it gave us the opportunity to really I guess some people say flex those muscles but I would say set up those creative principles for ourselves of which part we thought was important and whether or not it should be part of the conversation so early on when we were presenting ideas we were showing with furniture with certain of room we were indicating we're lighting might be those kind of

20:00things so we were really even then starting to blend some of those interior principles back into the what people would call those traditional architecture moments which again is so important referring back to my own experience it's been an absolute eye-opener working in around this world but now experiencing it I've been lucky that the Arctic and the interior Arctic have talked quite a lot through everyone's been on everyone's seen you but think right from the beginning but from what I understand that that's not always the case right that often an architect the architect would do a bunch of work and then the interior designer or the interior architect would get it so the the ability that you guys have to do both and think about it all and one is again such a massive scale and I guess bonus and benefit to your clients yeah and probably the work that we did early on helped to shape that because in the early days when we were doing some smaller projects often it was

21:07really interiors focused and then that idea just developed and evolved and grew and for us there's an equal balance between the interior architecture and the exterior architecture because both are so important to how one experiences the building with your work because I know being in Auckland which is something I do miss massively living down in a regional coastal town you have all this character and heritage so a lot of what's the balance of your work in terms of renovation of villas and and beautiful homes as opposed to new builds what's the percentage that you would do new builds and Auckland yeah so it changes all the time so first I would say that now we actually do work all over the countries yeah it's slightly different but and so we have a broad sort of range of houses that we've done and we've actually a quite a large number of projects we were looking at the other day which so that was quite a surprise wasn't it yeah but so I guess it depends

22:13on the area or part of town that you're in but predominantly like I say it's villas bungalows but it's also sort of earlier things like little cottages and stuff like that and then when you get out west or over to Waihiki if we're talking about Auckland you do get into those 70s and 80s kind of things yeah yeah and lots of the renovations that we've done over in like St Halle isn't anything now a co-e kind of area there they're not bungalow and villa renovations they have renovations to homes that were originally built in maybe the 60s or 70s and so we do do a lot of those style of renovation as well it could just completely transform the home and so potentially unrecognizable from what it was to start with oh just gonna say I think it's when you look at it like that you can see how it doesn't become just traditional architecture of the outside of a building because you've got this like the the original building so of course it's not going to just be adding a box on the back of course you're going to think about the interior as well it makes sense of course

23:18and we also do lots of lifestyle properties lots of beach houses yeah rural kind of retreats and those often either secondary residents or actually a lot of people end up having that as their main house that they then decide to go in the back that starts as the secondary residents in the yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly and those are definitely outside of Auckland and there's lots but done lots of those all over the country and so I think in terms of the proportion it could go from doing two thirds renovation one third new build to like half half so it just depends on which projects are in the office but from our point of view it's all very enjoyable and it's much more to do with those relationships with the clients and what thereafter if it feels to them like we're the right people for the job and and we're offering that aesthetically into thereafter then that's what attracts us to the different projects it would probably be quite fun as well if you're working on

24:22renovations or that kind of work and then a complete blank canvas new build like you can deflect all your muscles it's quite nice yeah yeah yeah and a great position and normally working on a range of things at the very same time so exactly like what you're describing where we've got new houses being designed and underway in our office at the same time as as a few renovations as well so where it's really a mix a mix of work all at the same time we do take on quite a few because the thing with architecture is that there's a lot of stop starting with the council and with the design process given people room to breathe in and consider and ruminate projects it means that we have capacity to be able to do lots of projects at the same time yeah really isn't the work you do isn't and you start on the state and it will take this x amount of time as there's so many variables that come into play and I'm imagining particularly in the renovation side as well because

25:25these things would pop up all the time mid project I'm imagining with particularly older humans and people in general if you've gone to wait for a holiday that they never thought about Christmas comes or someone gets engaged or the big birthday party or there's all those other life things yes so true probably one of the things we do differently with renovations which is actually similar to the thinking behind doing a new build is we tried to really bring a lot of the decision making ahead of time for the clients because part of the difference with the two of us is that we've both done our own new houses we've both done renovations before and some of our you know learning from those experiences is that you really need to have the actual construction process can hold quite a lot of stress it can hold quite a lot of decisions already so it's important that you bring as much of your decision making forward as possible so when we're looking at a renovation we're still thinking about months before we start on site we'll be looking at what the kitchen is going to be like

26:25what's what are those materials going to be just in the same way that we're thinking how's the downpipes going to be working how we're keeping the water out of the building that sort of thing and so it's still a very considered process and there still has a good length to it and it means when you get on site you're then not having those conversations with a contractor where they're saying hey you know that tap that we were mentioning the other day I need it tomorrow you've already done it it's already been ordered you already had all those things in play so it reduces some of that on site stress you briefly mentioned earlier about the fact that when you came together you had similar values could you talk a little bit about the values and ethos that drive your business so I mean in terms of our shared values that have met that our business has been so successful is that Kate and I both value relationships and our family and understanding that that plays an important role in one's life and making sure that the business can work in a way that that facilitates that and not only that is our friendship because we've got a deep friendship

27:31from over many many years now and making what we sort of set out to do and have done is that for us work is so fun it's enjoyable I love coming to work it's not a job it's actually a life it's you know because we really resonate so well with each other that we have developed a way of working that means that it's enjoyable and we really think about that very carefully in the decisions that we make to make sure that we're creating a business and work environment in life that then becomes something that we still enjoy so we we don't want to take away the joy of what we do by putting restrictions on that's why we work together on each project and design together so part of those personal values which might just be sort of respect communication loyalty treating people well the way that we consider that you should treat each other be considerate

28:34not only of the way you're working together but the rest of your life is a lot of the values that you can see merit in our company where we do believe that people should be respectful to each other whether it's a career coming to drop off a parcel at the office you're saying hello to that person you're you've that someone that you have a relationship with whether it's a contractor who's on site or a new electrician or a younger apprentice whether it is a client or their children or their mother the person is renting the house from them all these people deserve your respect as well as our staff members we we all expect we believe that you should be respectful and kind to all those different members of the team one of our other values is making that to learn I don't think you can ever learn too much and the more you learn the more you realize you've got more to learn so that is just that's definitely one of our of company values that we that we really strive to do and we bring that learning back to the office and so if someone's gone and seen a talk that they find

29:34interesting they'll come back and we'll discuss that together but it could also be something which tiny so they've seen something on Instagram that they like or they they saw a show on Netflix that they thought it had a great lighting angle or whatever anything where they felt like it had something to communicate back to the office we can have those little moments where we can share it and educate together and another value because we're obviously thought about this yeah yeah yeah is giving back because we do believe in giving back to our community and giving back to society so we can't not do a lot of volunteer work we volunteer at the Auckland branch of the New Zealand Institute of Architects and we also have volunteered in the past for women in architecture as well we routinely speak at architecture school we crit their every semester we'll go back and so we sort of believe that it's not only that kind of giving back but also being part of that broader community is so much a part of being an architect so that's really important to us it's

30:35interesting as you say that as well because I mean obviously that sounds cool on the outside you're like cool you go and speak at those things but actually when you work you those are huge time that's a big amount of time to take out of your working week and you know sometimes those things can feel like a chore a challenge because it takes away from your day to day so actually making time for that is a huge kind of sacrifice to the business but I don't mean sacrifice in a negative way it's important I mean we all remember when we were studying people coming in to talk to you don't you and what impact they had and the fact that you can do that for others is incredible but it is a conscious effort as you say to do that I am going back to what you said at the beginning about people in relationships being a core foundation and I was just thinking about that as you spoke about it that if you get the relationship right especially in a partnership it actually

31:38flows on to the work and the creativity because if you are happy and if your lives are working well your output will be better whereas if you put flip it round work is first then that can change that quite dramatically so I think particularly in a partnership in a collaboration putting that relationship as a kind of key and it's the first value you see it is actually so important and I can see the value in that that's absolutely true and I think in you see people in a really broad tense talking about work life balance and that's just such a comment which is used so fluidly but often people don't consider what it actually means and to us it really means that foundation that you have in your home life is just as important as the foundation that you have in your work life and they really do completely relate to one another and they not only relate to one another and for the two of us for our practice but also for all those other people they all have their own work life balance they all have their own thing that they're trying to work through

32:40and so it's not only understanding that but really coming back to whatever said so much of those it's kind of you to say that we're giving up our time and things like that when we're talking but for us it's such an important thing to be part of those other groups that it really doesn't feel like you're making a sacrifice those feel like important things that are really just part of it they're just things that make up what you should do in your company so it doesn't seem like we're saying or today oh Drat we've got to go and do that other thing it's more like okay cool we're going to go and see those other cool people that we enjoy seeing for example with university it's really invigorating to hear those new ideas and really be challenged by different types of thinking and be involved in different generations of thought and when you're and practice by yourself you want to be careful that you don't fall into the trap of just being on your own island and and only having your own way of looking at the world and we really do a lot of those values really rotate around the idea of as believing that it isn't just us on our island against the world it's all of us working together and so it's really forming an understanding of people's ideas and thoughts

33:47and that's part of that part of those selection of ideas. I'm imagine it would actually be really inspiring you know you remember when you're studying I studied graphic design and I still look back at my time of study you know just the ideas were just constantly flowing weren't they because you got all the time in the space to have these wild ideas and which often when you're working you're restrained around whatever the client or the projector would even so actually it's probably really inspiring for you both as well going back and talking to students all the time and seeing ideas and seeing their creativity come through it would be a real win-win. Yeah often think it's when we go back into university it's like using it a different part of your brain because all of a sudden you've got to really be free in your thinking and really think quite quickly and quite intuitively about what's been presented to you because you give feedback every student that's presenting to you so it just it uses it to challenge you, challenges you in different ways that you don't get from a normal working day but of course there's

34:52often other challenges in a normal working day but we do think it's great to challenge oneself and that goes back to the learning constantly learning about ourselves and about the world and then also giving back as well. Now next I want to talk about your creative process. I always think about this from thinking about the people listening to this to this podcast who are often creatives but in a different area to you or like they work in a different or they might just be enthusiasts or whatever so I always like to sort of talk about creative process and just share a little bit about like where your best ideas come from what does creativity look like in a day to day life obviously you are in a creative world so you're always creating but what we're just talking about then I guess where do your ideas come from and how do you know when an idea is worth pursuing particularly I guess with a client how far do you push it yeah just tell me about creativity and your creative process. One thing I'd say start with is that Kate and I have this strategy because

35:53what we do on a daily basis it can swap and flip flip between really technical thinking and really design thinking and then it might be accounting thinking but there's those are completely different parts of your brain that you might be using and having to flip between those different thoughts it can be quite challenging so what strategy that we use is we go for short mini walks so we go outside rain sun shine whatever it is and we go for a quick 10 minute walk in between those different tasks so that we can recalibrate and while we're talking while we're walking we're talking and sometimes then ideas fly about the next thing that you've got to do so it's a really important strategy that we use every day it's a really it's a real practical strategy isn't it I know it is quite funny a lot of people see us walking around there you two are always walking you're like we are working we are working yeah well it's funny because you do get your biggest idea like

36:55I get huge ideas when I'm out walking yeah we're in the shower when he verinets but I love building that into your work rather than I will all think about that tonight when I'm out on my shower walk sub punctuated we're getting a coffee yeah yeah we're still part of it yeah so but I think to come back to part of your question Aver and I design everything together so whether it's coming up with the concept design initially looking at developed design and how elevations are coming together and how materials are coming together through to cabinetry how to fit out or finish the selection whatever and so the fact is if I've got an idea and I tell it to Aver and she thinks it's no good well then it's no good you know I mean we debate quite heavily on things and so she's saying I don't really get that that didn't sound quite right and I'll sort of say well I think it might be this way that's part of collaboration is that have you had to have a really a great to disagree okay you will go with yours or of deep will one of you always come round and go okay I get it well they were quite good at trying to listen to each other okay it always

37:59reminds me to trust your gut instinct trust the first thought that you had and because often we're would have designed something and we're going so might go round a circle and be and I might have thrown out the idea five times and Kate says to me what was the first idea that that we had what was the first idea and so we return to that quite often because you might have tried all these different scenarios out and then actually the idea that keeps coming back to you ends up being that strongest one and it's about sitting and listening to yourself and sitting and listening to the idea because I think sometimes and over time this is something that we've had to teach ourselves because you might decide that that idea is not good enough or that I does not big enough or that idea might not work but actually when you nut it all out and when you return to that initial gut instinct often that is the right idea and you might have gone down

38:59many hours and paths to walk away from it but actually it's often the one that is the strongest and there is always this process that we go through of research of an idea and and flesh it out and and talking about the idea but really it's the strongest ones that come back to us. I love that because often you get an idea like you say that gut feeling idea and then all the outside thoughts or influences come in and then oh but what about what about you and sometimes it is just it's a great that's a great concept of returnback what was that gut feeling you've got experience you know what you're talking about what was that first thought that you thought and that often that that can be the one I love that oh there's some great thoughts in there I love it okay let's move on to marketing you've listened to this podcast that that is what's what I do but it's also an interest of mine obviously we've already sort of talked about word of mouth

40:01repeat clients is is a big part of how you get business do you do sort of outside of I guess I mean we all do our website and our Instagram and things like that but outside of that or alongside of that do you market your business in any particular way or or is have we sort of already covered it well I think the classic way is for architecture is magazines of all yes and word of mouth and we definitely do all of those things and then also Instagram is really important social media but outside of that is ties back to our values because actually giving talks and connecting with our community is a big part of creating that network I think some of those some of those relationships that we've really worked at over nearly 15 years I guess has meant that it's taken us to Singapore to the world architecture festival where we have judged and also presented to our own design and then I guess speaking at New Zealand design week those kind of

41:07things which are a natural progression of our desire to give back to that community and to be part of that community has obviously got a positive impact on marketing of getting your name out there and helping with your brand profile but I think for us that is a natural hand in hand with running a business is that you do have to constantly be trained to be the good New Zealander who isn't too much for tall pop air for a friend like but at the other hand you do have to get out there and talk about yourself and you do have to get out there and be prepared to share your work and share your designs and so it really is trying to find a good way of doing that and and it's different for everyone probably even I have an advantage in that we don't mind doing things like this we enjoy talking and sharing and we're quite happy to give a lecture or discuss things publicly so we have an advantage where we we're really happy to put our faces out there and stand up for our work if you like and that's an advantage that we use and actually listening to you talk would it be right

42:13to say that you are both naturally happy to network and connect and I don't mean networking often has a I don't mean that in that connotation of networking yeah but like you're a part of things you go to things you talk to people you share things and actually that's a really hard thing for a lot of people or you get busy and you go I can't be bothered going to the Chamber of Commerce talk because I'm tired or whatever but actually the more you do that stuff just from a genuine desire to connect they actually think things naturally flow on from there right the more you meet people talk to people share with people just naturally connect then things happen I think obviously I'm biased I would say it was a wonderful person to talk to and anything would be anyone would be very lucky to have the chance to meet her and but the big advantage we have is that we really like talking about design and we're really interested in the community and the

43:16two of us love to communicate we like to hear other people's ideas and perspective on things and so going to something and having the opportunity to talk to someone else and saying where they're coming from and something could be really interesting can really feed into your own work but more importantly is just part of being a New Zealander out there in the world we are really all from our own little villages whether or not we call them cities or not those those likes those interests in design actually joins us across the country and it joins us across the world really and so to us it doesn't feel like work because you're going along and talking to people about things that are really interesting I've had to really teach myself this and I'm an extrovert like I love people I love talking I am a natural connector on many levels I love I love friends people all of that but I struggle with industry type particularly going alone or or that kind of thing and I get to

44:16busy I can't be one all the things I could just see before and I actually when I had Alice from home style on the podcast a while ago because she does a lot of that stuff on her own and I said how do you do it and she said there's always a glass of wine to be had and something to look at on the walls and and I actually channel her so often now because and I as we have talked about off Mike I've just recently been in New York working with Emma Hayes and while I was there it was design week and there is Sarah Schum and Samuel was doing a talk as part of the female design council and it just popped up and so I registered for it and I was like is it came closer I was like oh I don't want to go even though it's New York I don't want to go I'm really not going to know anyone at this thing because this is New York and yeah and I just took myself along and I was like channel Alice channel Alice got myself a little drink didn't really talk to anyone but sat down looked around and listened to this awesome talk and I was so proud of myself for doing it and I guess

45:17it sort of I always think again like for people listening that for you guys it's obviously natural and you like doing it but for well I would say actually that it doesn't come that naturally and it's a learning thing. It's I'm like I often will be super busy at work and we're like oh no we don't have time to go and do that thing to go to that event or it might be I've got 101 things to do in our minds we might be like let's not do that but actually you've just got to force yourself to do it because you or it's like going for doing exercise but if you're not in the groove you don't never feel like doing it but once you do it you you don't appreciate yeah yeah yeah and I think human connection is a lot like that you don't necessarily feel like reaching out to that person or making a a time to meet up with friends or whatever it is but once you go and do it you always feel better so it's and there are so many things that we have done over the years

46:23well we haven't thought really to do it but we've just done it anyway and I think that something that we that is we always are really conscious of you've just got to do it because time goes past so fast and if you've said no to all of these things the next minute you don't have those opportunities well they stop coming don't they and I think that's a thing yeah so yeah I love that you do then and every like talking about it just reminds me constantly like it's an important thing and it is a first time of us a practice thing and it is a like you've just got to try so I love that okay so it's no secret that running a business brings also a lot of challenges could you talk about any challenges the business is faced and how you've approached it turned it around or yeah what challenges have looked like in your business I think initially the funny thing about being an architect is on the one hand you go to university for five years and people always say well you must have learned it all and I must have must have used classes because I certainly got out of the end and thought I don't know everything and so I think the funny thing about

47:29setting up a business is yes you know exactly how to be an architect and you know exactly how to run construction contracts but when you're setting up your company you don't know necessarily about GST or NEA-YEE or you don't really understand that there might be software like zero to help you out or when do you call your accountant and oh I'm going to have to need a lawyer to help me out with that or whatever and so that the very essence of setting up the company has a few challenges to it and those carry on to running the company as well so yeah because obviously we're trained architects we're not trained in business or accounting or sales yeah so it's definitely a challenge to learn all of those new skills HR there's a great challenge yeah that's a bit honest and I think that is a common thing for creatives that is yeah and it's also often an assumption this wonderful creative business and you're like yes it is but also the business side of it is a completely different skillset and challenge and I would say the other challenge that we have also

48:32I would say overcome over time is where we have been working mums as well and so that's a challenge for any woman that has children that goes through that where they're trying to where they love what they do and they also love being a mum and that's a big challenge but we've worked that into our lives over the years so that we've been able to manage both and manage the challenge that comes with all of those things yeah and I guess that comes back to that value of relationship and people the forefront I mean obviously all these things life and general eye-off and also thank people listening to this that haven't got children or don't have children yet it's just life challenges that just get in the way and it's like but those are never going to go are they so it is just finding that way to work around all the challenges that life throws at you and and what that looks like but yeah it's probably that's an ongoing challenge isn't it okay biggest highlights so far

49:32what are you the most proud of so far in this 14 nearly 15 year junior well I would say that the 10 year mark was a pretty big milestone for us we were we were really I don't know you can link and then all of a sudden you're like oh my gosh it's been well now it's haven't been long ever I yes but it just it seemed to have I mean in on a day to day it might not seem fast but actually over the time we yeah we've now that we've almost 14 years in business it does seem like it's gone really fast and the the first 10 years when when we got to that 10 year milestone we were just so proud that we had made it because a lot of businesses don't and a lot of marriages don't and yeah but we have this close relationship and when you're with the same person day in and day out you you've really got to take that as a real success when you're still

50:33a great friend with that person when we say that's a funny thing to admit but yes that's a huge deal just that that ability to still not only have we lasted that amount of time but both us still really enjoy it this amount of time and I think one of the strengths is actually the fact that both of us are happy to keep on talking about it and say okay what are we going to do now what's going to be our next little challenge that we're going to set ourselves and our thinking is often not so much about where are we sitting in terms of where our analysis and what's everyone else doing and what should we do it's more like what have we done did we reach that thing that we wanted to do what are we going to do next and constantly looking at it and looking at it that way and so I think one of our the big successes I would say is that it's still fun and it's still good to hang out with Eva and I still want to hear what she's got to say about something and I still want to do another the next design and so that is something which is really a personal

51:35and professional success I think a lot of the time when you go into business particularly we often all do it we're a little bit younger and I'm imagining I haven't gone on to a business partnership but I'm imagining going into a business partnership I mean you're not thinking will we still be friends in 15 years you just excited about the idea of going into business together and it's not probably until a few years or whatever that you start to go heat this is a significant relationship in my life think about it like a work marriage in those first days because you're just excited and it's and it's cool so that's why it is such a testament to longevity and partnership that it has worked and it's still working and it's still fun that's enjoyable when all right okay so next question have there been any moments like pivotal moments that have changed the direction of your business or had a big impact on your business I think there's some things which are outside factors which have created pivotal moments for everyone and although

52:38we want to forget it COVID probably did a bit where we all had pivotal changes not only to do with what was going on on the construction industry and can we build things now we're going to be able to get those products and do people still want to build and all those kind of things I think it was a pivotal moment because it made me go you know what even in the even in the dark days I still have either I still have someone I can talk about things with I still have someone who I can rely on to have that discussion to come forward and to positively look at things and really create a problem solve our way out of it and we really have a way of thinking about things which is kind of make it happen attitude and so you just have to look at each day and go what are we going to do how are we going to how are we going to work this what discussions are we going to have and so that to me was a pivotal moment because it was a really a moment where we set in stone if you're like we keep going this is always going to work yeah because I guess a lot of people during that time did have to look and go can this continue yeah absolutely so what do you think is the most

53:42importantly sin that you've learnt in this business journey so far oh definitely that relationships are everything relation key theme of this chat yeah communication and honesty yeah trusting yeah yeah instincts respect trying to so whether or not it's listing someone's design idea whether or not it's listing two things which seem small to you but are important to the person it's trying to respect where they're coming from trying to make sure that you understand what it is and and bringing that in and so I think in terms of a lesson that it took us a while to understand each other fully we didn't go into it on day one finishing each other's sentence now that yeah yeah so it actually was a big lesson in terms of being respectful to somebody else listening to them making sure that you don't jump to conclusions

54:43all of those are really important lessons that one takes on board themselves and when you're younger you don't think that that's some people on myself didn't think that was important but then you become they become apparent and often you think you realize that actually other people have opinions of what they should be and when you're working with someone so closely every day you really have to you have to teach yourself to calm down to often to listen to what they're saying to make sure that you're not jumping to conclusions to make sure that you are taking on board all of the opinions of somebody else because they're equally as important as your own obviously we've all got our own opinions and Kate and I are very opinionated and but those are really important lessons I think in business but also in life and they do mirror directly into the creative process because that listening and being collaborative and trying to really take on board

55:45what's going on whether it's on a building site whether it's a client's intention whether or not it's just trying to bring different moments or aesthetics through the design it's it's really trying to work those all together another lesson that we learned just thinking about always got more lessons a couple of times we thought maybe we shouldn't design together this design separately and so we tried it out and the lesson was we prefer doing it together it's more fun that way and we get a better and richer outcome if we design together so that has been a lesson that we've learned and now we have streamlined our process so that's always something that we do yeah I love that because every business partnership all but approaches that kind of thing differently but I really love that you do that it's so I feel like just creatively on so many levels as we've already talked about it it just it works but I love that you've tried that the other way yeah let you say that's a lesson so if you had to start your business from

56:46scratch tomorrow what would you do anything differently or what would you focus on first I feel like we probably wouldn't do anything differently because I think it's I mean it's definitely evolved but I think you naturally need to evolve you need to grow and evolve you can't just jump in we for us we didn't want to jump in the deep end and in a way we did because starting a business for anybody is jumping in the deep end right sink or swim but but we really felt and it's part of our personality is that we like to evolve we like to ruminate we like to slowly build our thought processes and and systems and so it wouldn't actually do anything differently I don't think I think it was yeah I can't see something that we that I would change I think that it's that it's all of those it sounds a little bit hallmarked but it's all of those challenges and all of those things that you go through is what helps create that process is called what helps create it and so even though

57:50there are sometimes where you're like oh this this seems to not pan out quite the way I wanted or whatever I'm not sure that that's something that I would change either when did you make that decision that you would always stay smaller like you wouldn't grow grow grow to be a big conglomerate or whatever when did you make that decision we have had times we've had more staff and things like that and I think the and so we've had the advantage of being able to try having more in their people and though all of those times have been good the advantage of being at the size that we're at now is that your time is spent in the design as well as running the business and so there's or everyone always has that sweet spot which is right for them of how their day is made up but you've got to be careful because sometimes it can turn into too much or too much or too much or too much sales or too much accounting and for everyone that level of what is too much and what is just right that Goldilocks moment is there and for us it seems like it's got this level.

58:51Yeah we like the 46 person practice and we have been bigger than that but we then decided we were just doing too much HR and too much not designing because you didn't have time in your day to do that and then it became less fun and we assess our self-refection and assessment all the time to make sure that we're going in the right direction to make sure that we're still enjoying it and we had just after we'd sort of reached 10 people we had just 8 to 10 people we had just decided that actually it's getting a bit complicated. Well then what we set out to do and so then we just scaled back intentionally because we like to remain hands-on. And I mean it's similar to the conversation I had with Liv from Materie Creative as well that also things change. Sometimes you go through phases where you want growth and you think that's what I want and then your life changes or your age changes or your stage of life changes or whatever and you go

59:52or like you say you go I just want to keep that creativity in my world and I don't want to be an HR manager I want to be an architect and designer. And it's okay for us to change it's okay for our world to go like that that's completely fine. So it's all part of that exploration that you have throughout the life of the company. And it became because you see the more people that you've got it doesn't make a lot of sense to design together because you've got too many things you've got to be doing. So then that then loses the love for us. So that's why we've made the decision. Yeah I love it. Okay what you know I always have a question around advice and what advice you'd give to someone in business or someone that's early on or starting out in their own business. But in particular I'd love for your advice to some to to a partnership that is starting out. You and your friend you've got an idea you and you know and you're going to start out in business.

1:00:53What advice would you give to a duo starting out in business? Well I think it is really important to find the right person and ask yourself inherently do you get on. Yeah for quite a while. Hopefully and it is easier if you well maybe it's not but for us it's easier if the fact that we're both going in the same direction in terms of life because I think it can be difficult if someone thinks that they're going to do a lot to travel and the other person thinks that no this is they want to go rolling on the business or yeah it can be and if you've got those different values it's going to be more difficult to find the common ground. I mean it's not like it was perfect for us because initially I was a worker holic and I could only see one direction working around the clock in case like whoa whoa whoa we balance each other and we've learnt from each other how that can

1:02:02really work both sort of ideas can meet in the middle so you doesn't have to be perfect actually. But you have to find someone that you think is going to be open to your ideas is going to be flexible is going to remain likeable. Yeah so have those conversations up front. Do you really think about what does this look like in 15 years rather than outside of that first initial excitement? Yeah of course. Yeah what does it look like? Okay no I've never been afraid to ask each other the hard questions and they're not always nice questions or easy questions but we've never been afraid to ask them and never been afraid to answer them either. Yeah and I think you could be very direct with people and very open about the things that are important and know that you don't have to have your way on everything there are certain things that are going to be more non-negotiable if you like with things that are more important to you and there's also going to be things that are

1:03:02important to the business partner and they can for each question they can actually be more than one correct answer more than one right answer and it's not a case of right and wrong it's more just a case of okay what do we think is going to work well this time what's going to work well next time how is it how are we going to work well together exactly and I think importantly find someone that respects you yeah I was going to say that comes down to trust and respect doesn't it you know yeah yeah so if you have a mutual respect for each other and a mutual trust in the other person then I think you're going to be able to overcome hurdles that are throwing towards you yeah and feel like you can be heard because I think that's the thing like you say being able to talk to each other about stuff you've got to be out and you've got to know that the other person's going to receive it and not receive that badly so if you have that trust in mutual respect it means the door can be open to speak your mind and not blow everything up or whatever okay yeah right we're getting to the end of the of the bigger questions who or what would you say have been the biggest influencers on

1:04:09your work or your business a big influence and I think for both of us and because we've built our own homes like from scratch and we've actually done it twice but the first time that you build your own home is a massive deal not many people go on to do it a second time like us yeah that's a lot of Asian ways it's good that you've done it actually because it's you know yeah exactly and so that was a massive influence I think not necessarily in terms of our design or but it's just the experience of doing it and going and seeing it from the other side so when drawings leave our office off we are often involved on site but it's different when you have to pay for it and it's different when you have to make all those decisions and keep other family members happy yes well there's lots of hats to juggle and so that was a really important experience I think that has shaped a lot of the decisions and that's often that's also how we shape a lot of the

1:05:13running of our practice and then bringing those decisions forward because we've had that really personal experience in doing exactly what we preach yeah which is as huge actually because it does mean that you can put yourself in your clients shoes then you can understand when they go I'm scared about that or I don't know if I'm making the right decision there because they are big decisions and they're hard it's hard and money and it's all of those things and when you've gone through it yourself you can totally identify with those feelings for it for sure yeah and more understanding and you understand that stress in the middle of the night when you wake up and you think oh my goodness what are we doing we've gone through that and we also understand how deeply rewarding the processes and because living and I mean for us living in a house where designed is something as kind of an ex-level but living in a a house that has been designed to bespoke for you is just

1:06:13this amazing feeling and it really is life-changing yeah it's interesting because as I've said I'm going through that process at the moment and I'm like every time I get worried about a decision I'm like it's going to be three thousand times better than anything you've ever lived in you're literally does that don't stress too much and hold it lightly as well because it's amazing what an opportunity okay what is the future for your business then what what does that what is the next 10 years look like for you or where are you heading what are your plans what do you know if you tend to me in the beginning what's the next 10 years going to be like I'm not sure I would have known the answer but I think that in that stupid way that you can't see the future but I think that I would hope it was going to be as fun as it has been already I would hope that we would have challenges and successes I would hope that we would get more clients who were pushing us to think differently yeah yeah I think just never stop learning never stop being curious about the world

1:07:18about other people people are so interesting actually when you start talking to them everyone's slightly different and it's just it can be quite fast then if you just step back and look at it from that perspective so yeah just never stop learning and never get bored I mean we're pretty good at keeping ourselves busy but yeah just continually learning understanding people we already work all over the country so possibly our work I imagine it will be a bit more extended further possibly we will move to doing work in Australia or doing more work maybe in the states I think those are logical progressions for us you'd like to do that you'd like to go through that and that's the other thing we we traveled over to Melbourne Design Week again this year and I think when we set up those relationships and we I guess continue those that's not the first time they were done that it makes us realise there are so many similarities between the way our

1:08:19Australian neighbours see the world and there is so so much of the way we look at things which really resonates with I feel like how people see things there and then naturally having worked in other countries it does make us look at that differently those are they're all challenges those are things that we wouldn't turn down don't for sure and I guess it actually goes back to that concept of always learning because if you start working in new regions or countries or whatever then that's going to bring a whole other kind of perspective world challenges ideas all of it there's so much more that comes from that and I guess that kind of response to that learning and that growth in not boring and keeping that kind of those wheels turning which is exciting okay so final but question what does success look like to you personally professionally or both well success is creating a home that someone really loves I mean a lot of the time we go back to a house after

1:09:21it's finished and the clients say to us what a massive difference this is made to their everyday life we genuinely feel all think that what we do changes people's lives because I mean it can sound kind of stupid but at the same time your your environment that you live in is so important to your mental health your physical health your outlook on life really do believe that the spaces that we're creating for people is changing and enhancing their lives and that is just so it's such a privilege to work on somebody's own home they're inviting us into their life we're making a dream come true it's just it's a huge privilege it's a huge joy to work on that we don't take it lightly we think it's really important in a person's life because it's been important in our lives we understand that and if you wake up in the morning with the sun streaming in it can have a massive positive impact on you or if there's a lovely spot to sit to enjoy your coffee in the morning all of those simple

1:10:25movements and habits and things throughout the day if they are just enhanced by we often say that the laundry is a great place for example to create a bit of joy because it's such a mundane task but why not have fun with it and so we just creating joy and creating happiness in someone's life by what we do and give back is really important to us yeah success is having a happy life so success is wanting to come to work success is finding joy and interest in everything and so yeah carrying that through to the work and and being with my best friend at the same time yeah that's success I love that and it just all works in hand in hand doesn't it for you guys they sort of really cyclical I also love what you said about the laundry because I've never had a laundry in the last 10 years I've just had a washing machine and a half tap in my garage like I'd dry it two years ago and that was like change right I did all my children's young years with no dryer

1:11:27and my new house has a laundry I cannot wait so I resonate with that particular moment as well that will bring me so much joy okay hey look that's the big sort of questions I have loved this conversation I've got so much out of it in terms of that relationship kind of perspective and again I'm always thinking about the people listening to this conversation and what they might take out of it and that kind of relationships and people first approach and how that impacts everything I think is so important but I also really love that concept of continuous learning and what that looks like we talked about the networking or not networking I don't like that word I don't know why I keep saying it but you know what I mean connecting connecting with people and in that becoming something a practice and giving back and all of that kind of thing I've just absolutely loved it so thanks so much for sharing your insights and your thoughts around that I know people will get a lot out of that okay thank you well please to have the opportunity thank you

1:12:29so now the final questions you've listened to this podcast before you know that these are my nosy questions but what is inspiring you at the moment the idea of creating joy I think it's a really inspiring thought like how can you do that and what is it is it sunlight for me I'm often really focused on the setting sun like the afternoon sun for me that brings me joy and I'm really interested in what little small things bring people joy in terms of their environment so that's something that I find inspiring and really interesting I think probably one of the funny things about the joy of us is that because we really love design and so it lays into everything that you see in a strange way you know where you're strong thought and it feels like everything is about that thought and so for me all things can feel inspiring in that way and like you're just saying the sunlight streaming into a room can feel inspiring because you think okay how can I bring the same feeling I'm

1:13:31having now into a moment that we have in one of our designs or it might be I don't know a piece of product design that you've seen or it might be a moment in a film where just some I guess conversation or a thought or an emotion that it makes you feel you sort of think okay how I'm making to do that how I'm making to bring that same thing back into a design and it becomes quite interesting I personally quite inspired by those ideas where you have moments in art where if you think about cubism and stuff like that they had those in a 2D moment and then they tried to bring it into a 3D moment and then those kind of movements and I think that's really runs and parallel with those ideas of okay I've got this feeling how can we change that feeling into a moment in architecture I love that and actually putting you on the spot what did you see in Melbourne that inspired you was there anything that you really came away going that is cool or I'm loving seeing that we were very lucky to meet Bajon Wardle and so that was a very inspiring moment we had

1:14:33done it at the restaurant he designed Jagga which was an incredible night it was they it was interactive as such that they walked you through the kitchen and you they showed you it was everything yeah everything and just and talked to you about the design of the space as well so that was a really inspiring night yeah he sat and chat with us about his thinking for the design and just sort of I guess where he's coming from and yeah that was a great moment so Jagga was the restaurant did you say yeah okay cool check that out okay which app or online tool for business and all life do we need well obviously we can't live without Instagram and I'm a big music fan so I can't live without Spotify as well but also this great yoga app that shares you exactly I'm a big fan of my daily yoga app so that's really cool what's it called daily yoga yeah I just sort of I'm quite a fan of that and the sort of meditation parts of it too I think it's nice to have parts of well-being in your life

1:15:38and it's interesting how technology has helped us too I go and prove with our work life balance in that way with that we've been able to bring in well-being ideas but also just listening to podcasts listening to people talk about things people that you you wouldn't have thought you'd be able to hear their thoughts normally in that way and yeah I definitely think that pop Apple podcast app has changed my life in terms of thinking and get a lot of my life life experience life life thoughts from podcasts okay what have you watched lately that we must see I do I do love a long form high budget kind of show myself and I think people often talk about that golden age of television as though it's long gone but I feel like it's it's there for the taking one of my favorites at the moment is still succession I really love that those relationships yeah yeah talk about relationships

1:16:38maybe don't relationships the wrong way yeah exactly the piece yeah very clever speaking of relationships have you seen rivals on Disney I'm obsessed yeah I am obsessed I love it so much I was describing it to someone the other day that had it watched it and I was like think like 80s silicone that bonk cluster but then it's like heartfelt lovely thought like it's it's funny but oh so good yeah I'm on the same page with that it's absolutely okay when we are in your town where should we go to eat your drink well well we like to keep it local so I'm going to say rag which is just up the road road from where I live yeah yeah yeah yeah and then when we're in Grayland we often go down to mother which is yeah yeah yeah yeah we like as we say we're often walking around the neighborhood so you might find us at honey bones you might find us at Katrove on my family yeah always yeah but we always want to check out something new I mean I think there's

1:17:43so much cool design you see how people put the space together what kind of caps of their chosen all look at these chairs and so we're often trying to check out new designs and things too okay what are your must-have skin care products love a bit of A-Sop must have the entire range of A-Sop is always more of a life project I think trying to help everything in the A-Sop range very difficult to achieve oh yeah I'm also an A-Sop fan but I just I'm pretty low maintenance when it comes to skin care so just like it to be super basic so I just like the perfect cream and that's about it I don't I don't do much else do you like I those the experience in an A-Sop store I mean I they must be one of those the kind of the first ones to have created those immersive retail experiences because they were doing it so long ago weren't they

1:18:46and yeah maybe Australia and I went into a store recently and I was just you just want everything because of the store and how it's set absolutely then I look at prices and I can't I always think I've just one serum away it hasn't quite happened I'm sure we did we did put it on a die cream laser you may be thinking yeah it's not white that same moment but no it's still nice I also'd love a bit of Dr. Halshup a bit of the emillution yes yeah emillution fan as well yeah there's so many great options these days aren't there as well that's not so support for choice okay which podcast apart from this one would you never miss I'm actually a big fan of the Zoe Science and Nutrition podcast I never miss that oh I've never heard of that one oh well it's changelife yeah and the top one percent of listeners globally because I just I choose the believer yeah it's about it's great scientists from around the world explaining

1:19:49the the research and findings and I find it really what's it called Zoe Zoe yeah yeah so it's not a girl but it's yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah what about you okay my slightly different I like a bit of Louis Thoreau oh yeah I love his perspective on the world and I think he's sort of has this beautiful way of talking to people which is so calm even though he's in the most crazy situations and I also like a bit of thrommie Schringenathan oh I like him too yeah he's such I don't think he's he's he got a podcast he does it's quite good he has he has this great moment sorry brings on his mother and they kind of yes maybe I think I really love dish and he talked about that years okay yeah and I think when you're having a low moment just listening to him laughing could just really change your perspective on the world I definitely find and I think I've spoken about it on the podcast before but in recent years I found myself going more to the lighthearted

1:20:52podcast because when the world does feel big and he be sometimes you're like I just want to listen to the light stuff sometimes or have a laugh or you know and sometimes it is just the beast yeah and it's good to be reminded that although design and architecture is hugely important and there is a lot of things going on yeah yeah yeah yeah well sometimes I listen to I used to listen to the business of home podcast a lot I don't know if you've ever if you've listened to that one and I do love it but I kind of I'm having a bit of a break from it because I felt that I was just so like I was I was getting a it was listening to that in a couple of other kind of design sort of ones and I was like I just need a bit of a break and some other things in but I do listen to it anyway yeah anyway okay what should we read next have you read I solar by legal goodman no but I've heard it's really good it is it's inspired by this true story or yeah inspired by true story of the 16th century French woman and and she is cast out to this island in the middle of nowhere which

1:22:03is happens to be French Canada and just her story of survival and courage and survival gets all odds it was I could not put this book down just so I was crying I was wasn't really laughing but I love those books that when you pick them up you don't stop that's a mark of a good book okay great book well I'm terrible I love a good penguin classic but truth be told I think I would always choose to read a good Italian folk or maybe UKL yeah you're like I'm a magazine girl yeah I'm done you love it when you get a fresh magazine and you're a cover to cover and yet I'm a reader to of those magazines I read the articles I'm not a just a pictures person and yet I went any it's September issue or something yeah yeah when I moved back from London many years ago I bought I look back now and I think it was foolish but I shipped back my collection of British phones I love it I

1:23:08must have spent so much money on it and it just stood in a stack and one day probably about 15 years later I had to get rid of them because I was going and I was like I can't move the heat in it as the it was a glorious time okay final question what are you passionate about outside of work what brings you joy outside of work for me it's music I love listening to music I'm really into indeed rock alternative music and it just brings me hip to joy and not necessarily all in the rock I actually have a huge range of music that I listen to I love music because it just creates a real emotional response and you can just choose a song to lift you up or make you feel nostalgic or energised or confident or whatever it is there's a song for everything and music just really makes me feel whatever emotion you're you're enhanced it whatever emotion you feel like on a given day so I love music I spend a lot of time listening to music and something that's daily ritual for me

1:24:13I love that yeah Eva's also a great cook she would never ever ever want to blow her own trumpet if you like she's a fabulous cook I'm more of a baker so I like to get a lot of baking myself and I love art galleries actually I really love to do probably for a similar reason to even saying about music I find it very inspiring it just makes you look at things differently and it can just be a kind of breath of reshare in a real change of emotion or a change of script if you like if you go and see a new gallery opening adjustment you look at things entirely differently I living regionally we've got a wonderful new art gallery actually down here in Todonga which is amazing and I was actually just there not that long ago for an event and I love it but you do missly in New Zealand like we don't have a huge amount and when I was in New York recently I had one morning before I caught my flight and I went to MoMA and I just it had been a while since I'd been to one of those sort of big international galleries and I grew up studying all this stuff and

1:25:20I was like I forgot it's such an emotional experience and just such a creative inspiring like I was like I have to do this more I have to make this approach I have to make it approach you when I go to Auckland I have to make a pro even at home because how do you say that because I always think that that's part of the draw of all the other parts of New Zealand when you think about Wong and I and their kind of artistic community or you think about Nelson or so many different places where people this is real these kind of creative hubs and so for me the value of those is you get to meet the people don't you? Yes, not just be the art. I think it's probably just the phase of life that I'm in as well when I have a nine-year-old and a seven-year-old and I mean not that art galleries aren't wonderful for them as well but you know like your world is different and because at this time on my own I was just like oh this is just revitalised me and it reminded me so I can I resonate with that absolutely. Hey look that's the end that's the end of the final

1:26:21questions and the end of the podcast thank you so much like I said before I've got so much out of this conversation and I know it will be really valuable to anyone listening I love your work I love what you guys do and yeah I just wish you all the best going forward for the next ex-amount of time of joy and not boredom and fun and creativity and all other things. Well thanks so much for having us on today we've really got a lot out of it ourselves too we've really enjoyed talking to you I know we're just so flattered to be involved in such a wonderful podcast and we're really valued this opportunity thing sometimes it's so nice to reflect as well I think particularly people that I talked to were often like oh it's not often that you just actually sit back and reflect on what you've done and we've come from and so it's and these things come out and I always take something out of every so like a kind of few key things and I'm so definitely got that with you guys so it's awesome thank you thank you so much for listening I would

1:27:25love to hear what you think about the podcast and if you wanted to tell your friends about super creative I would just be ever so grateful if you'd like to keep listening please subscribe on Apple podcasts Spotify or wherever you listen and if you wanted to write and review that would be amazing for more information find us at super creative podcast on Instagram and Facebook bye