EVOLVING: How the Jaylen Brown & Jayson Tatum DYNAMICALLY Thrive Together

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Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum seemed to be giving along just fine, but the relationship is evolving.

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Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum is an evolving thing that is going well, we think, but it's changing.

With me today, Tom Westerholm, everybody.

What up?

Quick, I got to get right to the content, Tom.

I got no time for chat, we're going to get right to it.

Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum, what are your thoughts?

Both pretty good.

Both different players.

Both Celtics.

Drafted here.

By the Celtics.

Both drafted.

What's third pick?

Both of them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's why everybody applauded for my come on.

That's exactly.

Okay.

All right.

No time for chat.

No time for applause.

Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum.

The Phoenix game was actually a very interesting kind of look at how this thing is evolving because

the end of the game was Jalen just doing his thing.

Jason kind of observing a little bit, but it was the evolution of this relationship between

the two.

I think it's going to be really, really fascinating.

So I think number one, all of the questions, like I think it was fair to raise the question

of how are these guys going to work together?

If not anything like that, just how, right, how I think is a big part of all of this.

And I think so far, so good.

It's been, I don't think we're seeing the final product, Tom, because there's some element

here of Jason is recovering and Jason is trying to, you know, build back, you know,

build himself back to the kind of player that he used to be and everybody has to understand

that.

But at the same time, you're trying to win games.

Jalen is trying to, you know, do what he does.

I like what I've seen so far, obviously, because they've won a bunch of games, but I like

that Jalen is not, he's not trying to do too much.

This isn't, this isn't anybody trying to do too much.

I think we're seeing everybody really making a strong effort to, to make it work.

Yeah, I think, to your point, right, I think not only was it fair to wonder how, how

it was all going to work, it was necessary, right, because I think what, what the Celtics

had was two diverging goals here, not diverging, actually merging goals.

They had to figure out how to merge these goals of, you know, Tatum, obviously he wants

the Celtics to win.

Obviously, he wants to be a part of a winning team.

But for Tatum, you know, the big story for Jason Tatum as a person was his comeback story.

And that's fair.

That's what, you know, that's the biggest event that's happened to him, you know, short

of maybe winning a title, deuces, birth, like this is like one of the biggest moments

of his life was getting injured and having to rehab and come back to basketball.

That's been a huge moment for him for Jalen and the rest of the Celtics.

This whole thing was like, you know, this whole season was not just about Jason Tatum.

In fact, it wasn't about Jason Tatum.

It was about, you know, trying to win basketball games as a basketball team.

So then when all of that comes together, there is this kind of, okay, you know, like you

said, how is this all going to mash?

How is it going to work?

And I think that what we're seeing is, we're seeing Jason take a really like mature approach

to, okay, I want to be part of a winning team.

This team has been winning without me.

So I'm coming in, I'm going to ease myself back in.

And like, you know, like you said, like Jalen and the rest of the Celtics accepting, you

know, fully like, hey, this is a, this is an unbelievably crucial part of our team.

And we need to integrate him into what we've already been doing.

So I just think, yeah, kind of a long way of saying, I agree with you.

I think that these guys are really like, you can, you can just kind of see them working

together to, to make everybody's goals come together, which is usually easier to do in

a season where everybody's been playing the whole time.

When everybody's been playing together the whole time, you know, everybody's goals kind

of naturally go the same direction.

But this year, there's just been, it's all kind of coming from different angles and

different directions.

And you can kind of in real time see them putting the pieces together and making them

kind of fit like a Lego set.

Yeah.

And look, this is, this is a group of champions, this is a group of smart people led by a

very smart group of coaches and the smartest for an office arguably in the NBA.

So I think everybody could kind of see how this was, you know, all the potential pitfalls.

I think everybody could see the how this could be challenging.

I think Joe Mozilla, kind of making sure that everybody embraces the look, this is what

you have.

It's going to be tough.

I'm sure he and Jalen talk all the time and, you know, he may not understand, they may

not understand each other because they mumble so much, but they talk all the time.

I'm sure the conversation goes something along lines of this is, this is exactly what

you want.

This is what you want.

I think this is one of the strengths of Joe Mozilla.

I go back to the, one of the documentaries where, you know, that clip is, is viral at

this point where the director was like, you, you know, Jason has to deal with a lot of

criticism.

Maybe unfair criticism.

And Joe says he gets to.

This is the ultimate compliment that you get to be unfairly criticized because you're

so good that this is part of the job.

People want to tell you they're just thinking of you no matter what.

And for Jalen, this falls under the same category.

Jason's had this for a while.

Jalen, you wanted all of this.

He said it after the game.

Like, I've always said, I always thought I could prove that I was one of the, you know,

the best players in the world when I got the opportunity.

Well, here's your opportunity.

You're doing it.

You're getting loud MVP chance here.

You're getting loud MVP chance.

You know, from all the drunk people at the South, the South, the, uh, St. Patrick's

Day parade and, and you're soaking it up.

You're loving it.

You got to be able to take the other stuff with you with it.

And the, the questions can, can Jalen do the right things when Jason comes back?

You're, you're both getting these questions fair or unfair.

This is what you wanted.

You got it.

Now you have to deal with it.

So embrace it, embrace the, the stupidity of the sports talk radio comments and embrace

the stupidity of the social media comments.

Take it all in, laugh at it, love it.

And then turn around and, and use that however you need to use it so you can go out there

and be the best damn basketball player you could be.

I think that's ultimately where I, I've, I've seen Jalen kind of land here and why not

only is this a season where Jalen has been, uh, deservedly in the MVP conversation.

I think this is, this is, it might be the most impressive Jalen Brown season, not just

on the court, which has been impressive mentally.

This has been maybe the most impressive Jalen Brown season because the way he's handled

being in that lead role, the way he's handling Jason coming back, all of that stuff is,

it's been a lot of fun to watch.

Here he is, his last season in his 20s and he's still evolving.

He's still growing and I'm glad I learned a long time ago to stop putting him in these boxes.

I, I think one of the coolest things about Jalen Brown and one of the things that

we're going to remember about him when he retires, which, I mean, the, the speed that his

and Tatum's careers feel like they're going at.

I mean, it feels like he's going to be, you know, 38 and retiring in like two years because

it just, it feels like he's, it does not feel like he, he should be leaving his thirties

at this juncture, but I think that like one of the, one of the biggest takeaways we're

going to have when he retires is just remembering like how much he got better every single year.

And, and how, yeah, like to your point, it wasn't just on the court.

It was, it's, it has been off the court to it.

It's just been just, you know, like how the extent to which he embraced the growth mindset

in every aspect of his game.

I think it's really going to be, yeah, I mean, you know, he's going to have the championship

and that'll be what a lot of people remember him for.

And he's, you know, wherever he ends his career, like, you know, the Boston will remember him

for a long and very successful stint here.

But I think when you just think about him as an individual and as a player,

it's going to be hard not to just think about like, man, that guy,

that guy really committed himself every single offseason, every single season,

to being a better player, a better, you know, a better member of the community.

Like, you know, that's, that's a, it says a lot about a guy when that's, when that's your big takeaway.

Yeah, it really is.

I keep using word impressive.

I can't think of another word.

For both of these guys, for honestly, for both of them,

because Jason is incredibly impressive for a number of reasons, obviously,

and this season for his comeback and playing at such a high level already.

But, you know, for both of these guys, I can't,

but this should be a season where these guys should be appreciated.

The, I think the big takeaway from this year is, oh my god,

look at what you have here in Boston.

And no matter what happens, you don't have it for much longer.

You've had it for longer than you're going to have it moving forward.

So that's something that we all need to wrap our heads around.

And I'm not saying that anybody's going to get traded or, you know,

I've gone in an expansion draft or anything like that.

Just the fact is that Jalen is 10 years into his career.

I don't know if he's got another 10.

He might, but I don't know if he does.

I don't know if he wants another 10.

Yeah.

So, but, you know, when I say impressive, like, the passing numbers,

I'll come back.

We'll come back.

The passing numbers,

even like when I looked them up today for a story that I wrote on,

on Celtics on SI,

they're even better than I expected.

We'll talk about that in just a second.

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Let's get back to this conversation here about Jalen Jalen Brown's passing and all of that.

Tom, the numbers are kind of incredible while looking at Jalen's passing all year.

He's averaging 5.1 assists per game this season.

This is career high.

It's the first time he's crossed 300 total assists for the season.

He already has 314 so it's already a career high and there's still what 14, 15 games left.

So he has the potential for another I mean 70 so it's not out of the question.

It's not out of the question that he can get close to 400.

If he goes on a run, he can get to 400, which would be incredible.

Well, geez, if some of these guys would make some of these shots with all these potential assists.

Well, the potential assists are an interesting one because the potential assists are 9.3 potential

assists per game this season.

So he's third on the team and he's very close.

Pain-pertured Derek White right ahead of him.

Derek White leads with 10.

So all of these potential assists are there for him.

In March though,

6.6 assists per game.

So he's up one and a half,

11 and a half potential assists per game.

And he's also added 1.3 secondary assists per game.

So one and a half, you know, so it's like a couple here, a couple, the past to the past that's

the assist. So Jalen is not only moving the ball and setting up shots.

He's setting up shots.

Potential assists just means someone's taken a shot within one dribble of receiving a pass

from Jalen and then he's swinging the ball, the potential assists, not that I'm sorry,

the secondary assists are right there too.

So I am impressed.

I think that he's been seeing the floor incredibly well this season, especially this month.

But that to happen for him to be kind of peaking in that sense with Tatum back now,

that's such an important development for him to be

moving the ball this well when Tatum is back.

It is. And I think just stylistically, the kinds of assists that he's been getting this year

are so impressive. I can't remember which game it was a couple of games ago where he fired that

won the entire way along the base lines with 3-point shooter. He's making some of these

ridiculous passes that Tatum, quite frankly, was the one making a couple of years ago, right?

Or last year?

Lefty pass, by the way, wasn't it?

It was a lefty hook pass.

Yeah, I think Shireman in the corner.

That was right.

Yeah, yeah.

No, it was disgusting, but it was one of his better passes of the year,

but also it wasn't like outlier.

It was like, when Vince Carter was a big dunker and he had his best dunk of the year,

you were never like, oh, I can't believe Vince did that.

You were like, oh, no, I mean, that was amazing, but that's kind of what he does.

And that's kind of where we're at with Jalen now.

Where it's like, he makes good passes.

And it's like, yeah, that's kind of what he does.

When he makes a great one, it's like, oh, wow.

Yeah, that was good even by his now kind of lofty standards.

So the one question I had about the stats that I don't know if you have this up or anything.

But what does the gap between assists and potential assists usually look like?

Like was is Jalen's kind of normal distance between the two?

Or is that like, or is he's a little bit more outlier?

Because it does, there was a stretch there, especially I would say about a month ago,

maybe a month and a half ago, where it really felt like he was,

he could have had 10, 11 assists in a bunch of games.

And he just didn't because guys were missing shots.

So I was curious when I, when I saw that stat that you put out,

if the potential of, if the gap between the two was bigger for him than others.

Well, let's see here, can I'm trying to call it up?

And of course, as I try to call it up, my internet is not cooperating.

So I don't know the answer to that.

Okay, let's see.

So his assists are 5.1 and the potential assists are 9.3.

So the gap is 4.2.

Payton-Pritards, 5.3 and 9.6.

Derek Whites, 5.7 and 10.

So no, those are all pretty much exactly the same, actually.

We're pretty much, let's go to last year and see if

the gap is any different.

But that all kind of, let's see.

So last season, why is my internet,

I pay enough for this internet to be working a lot faster than it's right now.

Last season, the leader and assist was Jason Tatum,

and the potential assist was 11.6.

So you're looking about four or five.

Okay.

Jalen Collins was 4.5 assists and 8.3 potential assists.

So the gap for him has grown.

No, yeah, it's grown a little bit.

A little bit.

Yeah, a little bit.

But that's,

so that's about right.

So you're the gap between

actual and potential is about four or five.

Either way, his passing,

like the style of assists are still notably different.

And I mean, I think that's one of the reasons his numbers are up this year, right?

Because he's throwing better passes for this.

They're not just like, you know, kind of drop-offs,

which I always thought he was pretty good at,

but this year's different.

Yeah, he, I think one of the things about his passing

that has stood out to me is just the timing of,

especially on his drives.

Yeah, there, there has been some of the,

I think, I think Jalen's reputation has always been,

I'm going to drive.

I'm going to jump.

And then I'm going to be like, while I'm in the air,

ah, no, I'm covered.

Hook pass.

And it goes to, and he's definitely done that plenty this year.

I haven't seen it a lot lately.

And I think where he's been going is,

to be honest, I think I saw it more in January than anything,

which might have been like a, just a January kind of,

goldrums kind of thing.

People kind of falling back on some bad habits.

But what I've seen lately is,

what you want to see, I'm, you know, a drive.

The defense steps up and he's not just challenging the defense to say,

okay, I'm just going to go do what I do and jump through you.

It's move the ball and set somebody up.

And then the ball moves a couple of times.

And that could account for some of the increase in the potential or the secondary assists.

Um, but he's, he's just reading the defense.

I think a little bit better.

He's reading, he's making the rim reads a lot quicker.

And he's, he's getting off the ball just a little bit sooner.

And that all leads to just a, a more cohesive offense.

And it's not just a bunch of players who are sitting there going,

okay, I'm waiting for him to get into trouble and pass.

It's more, I'm just going to get to a spot.

Trusting that Jalen's going to find me and he's doing it.

I think that's important.

Yeah. And I think, it's, I think it's always easy for,

and not to take anything away from it.

I do think it is easier for a player who is a primary ball handler and score to, to know,

like, okay, I'm going to get off the ball because I know it's going to come back to me.

Like, well, right, that's, that's, that's easier when you're, when you're the primary guy too.

But either way, your, your point for sure stands.

Let's flip it to the other side and Jason.

Because I think one of the things that stood out to me against Phoenix was Jason being

just patient and understanding, you know, hey, this fourth quarter is all about Jalen.

We'll talk about that when we come back.

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Tom, what Jason Tatum did in this game?

I think I can't tell obviously because I'm not in his head.

I don't know how much of what he did at the end of the game was.

I'm not ready to kind of be Jason Tatum in that in that spot to be the takeover guy.

So Jalen's got a cooking.

I'm going to I'm going to just chill out and just run the offense.

It's almost like they traded places and Jalen did all the stuff Jason usually does.

You know, I got into a lot of trouble earlier this year saying that this exact thing

thing should happen.

I into a lot of trouble online and people are like,

I can't believe you say this and Jason should sacrifice and blah, blah,

sacrifice enough.

And here we are.

First opportunity, first clutch game.

Jason steps aside for whatever reason.

He's not ready yet.

Totally, totally fair to say that he's not ready yet.

Of course, he's not.

It's not criticism.

He just came back from an Achilles injury.

But he willingly stepped aside was a supporting player.

Jalen Brown closed this game out.

He was he was like the big reason why they closed the game out.

They went on a 14 to run.

Jason had a very sizable role as well.

But I appreciate that Jason understood the moment.

Understood himself and said, hey, the best thing for the Celtics right now,

for whatever reason, whatever multiple reasons,

is for me to do this this way.

And this is just exactly what I wanted from these guys.

Now moving forward,

any team that the Celtics face in the playoffs can look at that Phoenix game and say,

you know, they closed out.

I know Phoenix was missing a couple of guys,

but they closed out the suns in a way that is not normal.

And now we have to prepare for Jalen as a primary guy.

It's just one more thing that defenses have to worry about.

The more defense has to worry about,

the more susceptible they are to making mistakes.

So that's why I really, really like how this game ended.

Yeah, not only do we have to prepare for Jalen as a primary guy,

we also have to prepare for Jason to be on the floor defensively.

Because that is also a massive challenge that you now get to try to cope with.

I mean, honestly, you watched this game,

you watched the way the Celtics have played since Tatum came back.

It's like, well, man,

what does this look like when these guys are both fully healthy?

Can they keep doing this?

Like, can they keep kind of playing off each other and letting each other cook?

And not just letting each other cook, but like, I mean,

you know, run a picking roll together, set screens together,

you know, work off each other, use each other to,

you know, because as much as the your torn my turn thing works for them,

because they're both that good, I mean, it like,

how can you get away from that, right?

How can you, how can you, instead of making it your turn, my turn?

How can it just kind of be, you know,

a little more egalitarian sometimes?

Like, I think those are those are the things that I,

like you kind of, like I kind of watch and wonder about.

Even as Jalen is absolutely cooking, right?

Like down the stretch, I mean, that fourth quarter was ridiculous.

I mean, that that last bucket he got where that probably should have been an

anand one and probably should have been free throw number 22.

Like, you know, it's like he's really just absolutely

hooping. He looked amazing.

And there's going to come a time when the Celtics are going to have both him

and Tatum also capable of doing that together on the floor at the same time.

I mean, at this point, you know, I'm getting greedy,

getting ahead of myself a little bit because like what we're,

what we're watching right now is awesome.

Like it is really good and it's, and it's, it's, it's really cool to see

a fully realized Jalen Brown.

But I think the next task, maybe it's not this year,

maybe it's next year, whenever it is.

I think the next task is figuring out how fully realized Jalen Brown

and fully realized Jason Tatum can be fully realized together

to where it's not just kind of, you know, taking turns and letting one guy cook sort of.

Yeah, and look, I think the taking turns thing is also a function of

the old offense. This is a new kind of offense.

This is a new set of requirements for Jalen and Jason.

They don't have a lot of the help that they've had before.

So my turn, your turn is, I think sometimes a function of matchup hunting,

you know, who has the matchup, right? Who has the guy? Who's,

what are we, what are we looking to exploit pigeon hunting and all of that?

I don't think you can do that quite as much with this group.

You know, so it's not about, okay, here's the mismatch.

We're going to get Jalen on this guy or we're going to get Jason on this guy.

It's because you can pre-switch, you can leave some of these guys that, you know,

depending on the time of the game, you know, you, you Baylor Shireman,

Swirl, he's having a great season. Teams are going to leave him.

Right.

In the playoffs, they're going to leave him.

They're going to try, like, go ahead.

Hugo, they're going to definitely leave Hugo.

He's a rookie, you know, they're going to, they're going to test everybody else.

This season's Celtics has an element that other season Celtics didn't have,

which is, oh, we're just going to dare this guy to beat us.

Where previous incarnations of the Celtics, like,

we laughed when this was the Warriors said, we dared to holiday to beat us.

And it worked that one time was like, that's not going to work for four times, you know,

but they also dare Jalen Brown to beat them one time.

And that was disastrous, which was a disaster.

Right.

But you can, you can dare Baylor Shireman and is Baylor going to beat you four times in a series?

Probably not.

Probably not.

You know, so it's like the Grant Williams thing, you know, maybe he'll get the,

maybe he'll have a Grant Williams game, right?

And it's just a pouring, however many it was, seven threes in one game.

He's capable of that, but point is the Celtics are going to have to bend defenses.

And we're Jalen and Jason to be at this point now and be so, so much more unselfish.

Like, that's the only thing we're never unselfish, but there's so much more unselfish.

There's smart guys.

They see, they see who's out there.

They love your teammates.

They think highly of their teammates.

But also they see who's out there.

They know, so they have to adjust their games accordingly, not just to each other,

but to the whole team.

And that just means, okay, if I have to start off the ball,

and you got to have Baylor and Sam Houser set stagger screens.

And while Nemi is setting a screen for one, one other guy,

and you're going to have to, like, have a lot of this action.

So be it, so be it.

And if you have to catch more off the move and attack that way, so be it.

I just think that what we're seeing now with these two guys,

it says much mixing them in with the rest of the team and making sure everybody's maximized.

Not just maximizing each other and maximizing a style of play

that when the playoffs come around and you can game plan,

you got to make it so you can't really game plan

because we're just going to make it very, very difficult for you.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's, no, I think that's right.

All right, well, we did it.

That's a podcast, Tom.

Yeah, once again, we defied the odds.

People said we couldn't do it.

We defied the pods.

Some people are talking about it.

Well, I can't think of anything better.

I didn't have my sound effects there.

That's why that timing is impeccable, man.

That timing was lunch.

That's good.

And my style of humor, it takes a minute for it to really sink in with people.

Yeah, it's a real eyebrow, but you know, yeah.

All right, well, get on out of here, Tom.

Thank you.

Appreciate you, man.

I appreciate you, Tom.

I appreciate you too, listening, watching, watching me in a different setting

because behind me is a dog with a big cone on his head.

And I just wanted to make sure that he's doing okay.

So I'm in a different part of the house.

So thank you for listening.

Thank you for watching.

I do appreciate you being here every Monday through Friday.

I got bonus podcasts throughout the week.

So make sure you're checking those out.

Keep an eye on your feeds.

So those will drop whenever, definitely when they play on weekends.

So check those out for sure.

And then I would love it if you share the podcast and tell everybody

they should be listening to and watching the lockdown

down south of its podcast here in the lockdown podcast.

That works.

It's your team every day.