Expert Reveals Reality TV Secrets

0:00Welcome to Saboies, a podcast about feelings and other things also. I'm Jarvis Jordan and we're joined by a very special guest today. She's a writer I first found you writing bachelor recaps that's me baby. You're you're most notably a new author you've got a book that's just come out just come out yes. And it's about one of our favorite things which is reality television. It's Ali Barthwell. Hey, what's up nerds? Must be something mistake. He said no. Oh yeah, weird. No, I was part of that. Yeah, I'm actually. Yeah, because when you looked at me while you said it just a general to the room. You didn't notice the denim jacket. He did. He did where the denim jacket is. Cool. Cool. There we go. Probably own a motorcycle. Okay. He's like insa Kia. I'll have you know. 2033. Kia's. I'm good to you. Yeah, wow. The one that's really easy to remotely unlock. No. Only if you have like a sim card in the will.

1:03It's the one that there's like a YouTube short. It's so easy like on how to break into your car. Yeah, it's a five second ad before a YouTube video. We'll break down how to. Oh yeah. And that's like do you want to break into a Kia? Go ahead. Do you want to steal his catalytic convert? Yeah, I know. There was. I think we told this a long time ago. They're on my like doorbell camera. My neighbor was like, hey, do you have like any security camera footage of outs like just like the street right outside because my catalytic converter was stolen. And we were like, oh, and then I looked at the doorbell cam from like the middle of the night. And like a car crawls up the hill. Someone like slithered. They don't open the door. Yeah, like slithered down and out of the car. You hear. And then they slithered back up the door and drive away. It was like very efficient. It's like nature photography. Yeah. I would watch a.

2:04This is how David Addenbroe like documentary. Yeah, the native catalytic converter. As they remove the uncoupling from the undercarriage. Study show this has a 50% chance of being sold back to its owner via the eBay secondary market for catalytic converters. The natural scalper has returned from purchasing Pokemon cards in bulk and now seeks its real prey. Fresh of his ship from wrestling a child to the ground to steal his Pokemon cards. Allie, how are you doing? I'm so great. Happy to be here. What a treat. Yeah, no, it's a treat for us as well. You're a multi-hyphenate. We've been saying that. You're a multi-hyphenate. A jeopardy contestant. Absolutely. That should be one of the hyphenates. Yeah. Yeah. A jeopardy hyphen contestant. Getting extra-rated though. So you're on a bit of a book tour right now. Yes, I am.

3:05How is it being on tour? It kind of rules being on a book tour. I think it just sounds cool to say I'm on tour and I've never done it. So that could be really good for us. It could be good to say that. You guys should get into it. I think we should go on tour. Just start calling vacations book tours. I tell you, okay, for this. Wow. So I mean, I'm on tour. I want to work tour. I want to work. It's been really great because it allows me to talk about my favorite thing, which is reality TV. My book is called Reality TV for snobs. Available now. I also did the audiobook. Whoa. Please get the book and the audiobook. That can be a little bit annoying. It was ridiculous. How it took. I also wrote myself in some character voices. Oh, I'm told. Now you're being called on your own. Yeah, you're like, boom. The improv and sketch skills, like in the booth. And the one thing was they were like, the only note they were like, yeah, you're just a little loud. So I'm going to turn you down a little bit. And they're like, you don't do anything different. Just going to turn you down.

4:05Okay, didn't need to know that. Yeah. I'm a little self-conscious now about my volume. Yeah, if you're going to do it, I don't need to know about it. But it was really great. And so it's just been really fun to like, I've done Chicago, Boston. I'm here in LA. I have New York coming up soon. And so just like hanging out with one of my friends. Well, they asked me questions about my work. And then the audience asked me questions about reality TV. And I just get to like, give a hot take. And the whole audience is like, yes, that's the life hack. Yeah, that's the life hack. It's like, you know, talk about something you love. And you'll never talk a day in your life. Is that the phrase? Yeah, you'll shut up forever. So close. Do you have an improv and sketch background? I was going to ask because I know you're writing primarily. Yes, I started doing improv and sketch in Chicago at the second city. So I got a scholarship when I graduated college to the second city for performers of color. And I went through all the training at second city. I was a touring actor or like, all those two years.

5:05Another two. Oh, always on tour. I know how to like get into a hotel room. Yeah, exactly how I want it. Oh, yeah. And then I became a teacher and a director at the second city. And then the pandemic hit. And we taught on Zoom for a little bit, which I don't recommend. Oh my god. Teaching improv on Zoom. Ah, don't recommend. I don't know if I've ever. Yeah, I don't know if I've ever said it here, but I was taking, I just started a character class here with John Meele-Hizer, who is like formerly of SNL. And I was so excited to get out in the world, touch grass, get back to performing. I'd done improv and sketch in San Francisco. That's where Anastasia and I met. And I stopped to that. I was like, hey, improv team, I'm going to try this YouTube thing. And I only have so much time. And I can't do these like three hour Sunday practices. And then COVID hit and it went to Zoom. And I was like, my job is so much of me sitting at my desk being on Zoom. Yeah.

6:05That I just can't like, this is now everything that I like has turned into a Zoom meeting. Yes. And I just had to let it go. You live long enough to see yourself become the villain. I have so much rather do nothing. I think by the end I like finally cracked it. But it's just like, if anything you do on Zoom, like we did, I did a Zoom sketch show with my students. Oh wow. And it was just like, you can't have a scene over two minutes. Like everything has to be really short. But we found some fun ways to like play with like, people coming on and off camera and so like that. So yeah, like my background is teaching, writing, performing, sketching, improv. Are you from Chicago originally? I grew up in the closest suburb of Chicago. Oh, okay. So I went away for college and then came back and came back to do sketching and improv. Wendy City. Wendy City. Wendy City. The Wendy City. The Wendy City. Do you know that? My family is from Springfield, but I've never been there. I went to Chicago for the first time for Pokemon Go Fest this year. Oh, hell yeah. But it was also the time that right before the World Cup,

7:08Germany and the US were having a show match at Soldiers, Soldiers Field. And it coincided with it raining. B-52 bombers flying overhead. The Field Museum had a Pokemon thing going on as well. Yes, there's a Pokemon. It's like the fossils of Pokemon. It's awesome. My boyfriend, I went and it is true. It, the, like the audience was like children. And then people my age. But there's a moment like right when you walk in because like the conceit of the exhibit is like, this is a world that we found. These fossils, like it pretends like, and all the games are like artifacts from the world. But like right when you walk in, there's like an old school Game Boy and the red and blue. Oh, yeah. And it's like these are artifacts from the late 19th century. Want to feel old? Yeah. And we were just like, oh no, we just walked in. Fossilizing in real time. Yeah. I keep this Game Boy around so that I remember that I'm actually young and started on the Game Boy color.

8:09And this was what the old people had. How's your, how's your back by the way? Not good. Right. Okay. Oh god, I love um, 67. Oh, dude, honestly, I was just thinking about tongue, tongue so horror the other day. Five nights at Freddy's. My dad watched the South Park episode with 67. And so he did it for like weeks. And so in my mind, 67 is not for the youth. It is. It is. It's gone. It's gone. I think I've started hearing the wave of teachers having students tell them we don't do. We don't do that. Yeah, yeah. And there also was a, a jeopardy category that we didn't have in our game, but it was all things that rhymed with 67. Wow. Every answer is 67. So it was like one, it was like the band that things come sail away. And the last name of the character in naked gun. Oh, they doubled up. So it was six. Six driven. Wow.

9:10And I will talk about it. I love a brain teaser category. And I was like backstage locked in like I've never been locked in before. You were connecting like neurons firing at an unprecedented degree. I was seeing past the answer. Yeah, yeah. I think trivia does require a certain type of a approach to learning. Well, like I'm a real, I'm a New York Times crossword. Yeah, I was gonna say that's where you you come in. You know, they're weird, like little. The little readixes that they do. It's only meta. It's only deciding like, oh, who wrote this one? Oh, okay. So we're just going to do a theme that doesn't make any sense. There was like a daily paper in Chicago. And you could tell they needed a bunch of holes because they would go civil war general and you're like, Ely. You've always tell it's earlier in the week on the easy ones when it has to include reggae inspired style of music. Scar. Got. Yeah. Yes. Kind of edgy. Goth comma say. Emo. The comma say is take a piss. Yeah. Part a big part of any kind of trivia doing crossword puzzles is like

10:12learning how the brain of the person making it. Right. So like preparing for jeopardy, part of it is like learning how to read the question and looking. So there's something people talk about when they start studying jeopardy questions. The answer is whenever they go this actor, like that's what they're asking for. So you look for the word this. Like if you can scan the quest. So if you're a speaker, if you scan the question really fast, and look for the word this, it's like that's what they're looking for. Right. Because a lot of times, especially like pop culture jeopardy, people would just answer the wrong thing. Like they would answer the album and not the song, right? And the movie and not the actor. I say, right. So you want to look for like, you know, this actor, this, whatever. Yeah. Well, let's talk about that because you were on pop culture jeopardy hosted by Colin Joe's and I wasn't expecting you to pop up while I was listening in the background. While doing something else important, I'm sure. You're not on the TV. Hello, Jevvus. Yeah. Jarvis, pay attention. I looked over. I looked over and you were knowing all the answers to things

11:12and I was upset with my own lack of knowledge. What was your journey like into that? How long have you been a trivia head? Oh, man. Yeah, maybe just walk us through that experience. I'm like a board game person across our puzzle person. I love a little logic puzzle. I love all that shit. I mean, writing in many ways, writing in many ways can be that. There's one to no one, bro. It's like that creative problem solving, you know, like, yeah. And so I've been like going to do bar trivia and stuff for years. I have like a friend group that we go like every week, you know. And so my younger brother also did trivia in college. He was like a national trivia champion. The dynasty. The dynasty. He was a HBCU champion. I was like, all right, I got a call out and I was it. And so my boyfriend and I watched the first season. And we were like, we know every answer. We should be. And we tried, I tried out for the first season. They had teams of three. So I was going to do me and my two brothers. And my older brother didn't fill out his form. So we like got passed over. So then we applied again.

12:14And we applied to the team of three. But then they cut one of the people because it moved to Netflix. So it was me and my boyfriend. And they cut my younger brother. And they chose who got cut. They chose who got cut. Interesting. And so then we were like, OK, you're our coach. And so he was like, the thing that you need is buzzer training and reaction time tests. So he started telling us about how they would do reaction. They would sit with his trivia team. And they would sit in front of each other. Like one person would go up. And they would do 15 reaction time tests in front of each other. And like the average reaction time is like 0.25 seconds or something. So you had to be under 0.25 seconds for the majority. So he was like, that's what y'all need to do. Wow. He also found. I should also probably get the answers, right? But I don't think I got that. That's the kind of beyond. Right. I can hit the button. I'll provide a little bit of nerd context since we love fun facts here. So I do think there is something to like 200 milliseconds in reaction time because in the, it probably

13:16is less of an issue now. But in the internet, like I used to do, like work on websites and stuff, it's very important that your website loads to the user in under 200 milliseconds. Yeah. Because it's like, otherwise you start to feel it. You start to feel. And so it's like, it's in like one like reaction moment. I hit, I hit go and then it happens. It should go. And so D&D to end happens in six seconds. Kind of thing. Yeah. So on pop culture, jeopardy and on jeopardy, there's lights on the side of the stage. So they read the clue. Like a stoplight. They're like a tropical thing. They're like, they flash. But it's like two columns of light on the side of the screen. And they read the question. And when the last, at the end of the last syllable, the lights flash. And that's when you can buzz in. So we bought a system, a $300 system from like buzzers.com or whatever. It's a place for it. And it got like a website books that gets from the 90s. Yeah. Yeah. And it has like a little light system.

14:16And someone can, so my younger brother built us, probably like 10 practice boards of jeopardy questions. We found online. And we would, you would turn the light on. And we would buzz in. And we had a day where like our friends came and like played against us. So we could, we did games like back to back so we could feel like what that was like. You were really like creating. It was like, it was like the, SEAL Team 6 getting, oh, some of them live. And you recreated. I didn't know. That's how it's simulation. You're like cut out of Colin Joe. We were on our practice day. We wore like matching outfits to be like, OK, what shoes do we need to wear? You hire a local improviser. It's like riff with you about like, so what's your deal? You guys brothers, or what? A great place to not prepare. Yeah. Great place to complete, nail everything and completely whiff on basic socialization. Really whiff on the interview question. I don't know, Carlston. Oh, no. This episode of Sad Boys is sponsored by Zogdok. There are certain times in life, right? We're finding the perfect fit really matters.

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16:21You can see their actual appointment availability to use a time that works for you, and click to instantly book a visit. Zogdok appointments happen fast, typically within just 24 to 72 hours of booking. You can even score the same day, this mythical, same day appointment. So stop putting off those doctors appointments, and go to zogdok.com slash sadboys to find an instantly book, a top rated doctor today. That's zocdoc.com slash sadboyssad.ed. B-O-Y-Z, zogdok.com slash sadboys. Thanks again to Zogdok for sponsoring this episode. On the interview questions, it was like the weekend before our 10th anniversary. And so when we were like getting ready, they come and they're like, okay, what's interesting about you? Please tell us something. And we were like, oh, it's our interview. It's our anniversary next week. And they were like, just say it's today. They were like, just say it's today. Like, we don't know when people are gonna watch. Like, just say it.

17:22So like, we got- Maybe they want you to go into your own first birthday. Yeah. So we got like, that got like a pop of people being like, oh, it's their anniversary. So like, we did all of that buzzer training. And then my boyfriend did not study. He was like, I don't need any new information. Was he one of those people in school who's like, I'm good. I just got it all up here. Yeah. But there's people exist. Yeah. And well, because so he worked at a record store for like 12 years. Oh wow. So there is not, there's hardly a piece of music trivia he doesn't know. That's so cool. And so just anything music, I was like, I'll wait and he'll get it right. Yeah. Like, we, you know, and so I was like, okay, what are our gaps in knowledge? Right. So there was stuff where I watched the first season and wrote down like every category and marked off like what we knew and looked for patterns. So they always asked where things are filmed. Like what? Where things are filmed or what the name of like, like what's the coffee shop and

18:23Buffy, like stuff like that. Right, right. So I just, Buffy's the vampires. A lot of vampires latte, Sanders, speak up. That was when I was like, I know, I knew it, but like it has exited my brain. Right. I went and like did a day where I looked up like where stuff is filmed, what the name of towns and different movies and stuff is called. Do you use a special? So when I was like studying Japanese in college, I used this app on key because it does space repetition for memory. Because you know, like there's basically like the decay rate of your memory. If you remat, if you refresh those things at a certain interval, you can kind of lock it in your brain. Locking in better. Like did you have, I'm sure people do stuff like that. But did you have any special techniques? The two sort of things that I did is when I had like a topic, I would be like, oh, so I didn't want to write, I was like, okay, I'm going to get a fact about like every movie

19:26that won best picture. And I would think of five, I would go research five facts and I would write them by hand because you have a better, like retention for stuff that you wrote by hand. So I would do that. So I was like, I didn't know anything about K-pop and I didn't think Philip knew a ton about K-pop either. So I was like, okay, we have to at least know the names of the top 10 K-pop groups. Yeah, that makes so much sense. Like there's stuff like that where it was like, okay, I'm going to look at like what's on it. We were like, it's on Netflix. What's on Netflix? Like let's look that up. It was a little, yeah, opportunity for free promo. Right. Yeah. Like there was a whole category on Wednesday that like there was stuff or there was one there, but it was a thing where like nobody on the none of us watched Wednesday. Right. So we kept getting triple stumpers and Colin just literally like great promo for Wednesday. And then they're like cut that from the end. Other thing that we that I had, so my, my younger brother was getting us a reaction time and buzzer training. My older brother is a tech web developer on and on and I was like, I wish I could have

20:31every jeopardy question in like a flashcard on my phone. And so he vibe coded me an app that had literally every jeopardy question. We found like a website. I was going to say there's a website that has it's, it's the full like data archive. Yes. And it's every like in the episode it existed. And then I think you can like sort and go like categories and stuff. So I gave him a list of categories to start. I was like movies, music, Oscar winners, country music. I knew I didn't know country music. That was another one of my like apps. And it was like instead of scrolling on TikTok or something for like a half hour for it. I would just do flashcards of every jeopardy question. That sounds fun. Am I a nerd? It sounds fun to me. We. Yes. Okay. So, oh my gosh. It was so, I was like, this is so fun. Everyone there was a trivia nerd too. Right. So we were like, we just want to sit around and talk about how we train and everything. And but we got, we did, we sent in our application like in the fall of last year. We got the, is there a video portion of that where you're like, we had to do this is

21:35us like, we had to do a zoom interview where they were like, they're say like get like a clicky pen. Did it do a sketch? Something. Yeah. 5, 6, 7, and they did like, you know, why do you like jeopardy? What, you know, what's your history with trivia? How did you guys meet like that? Stuff like that. But we do a twins day. Yeah. Please say what's your favorite day? The we. And so we got the notice that we were going to go at Thanksgiving and it taped beginning of January. Oh, wow. Okay. And I think we're going to overdrive the preparation or is there, we were just like, I was like, okay, I have to do something for it every day. Yeah. We found that there's like YouTube compilations of like every, you know, rock and roll question on jeopardy or like every final jeopardy about movies or something. That's so the people uploading that. Listen, listen, shout out to the people with that editing software.

22:36The politics. The politics. The politics. Yeah, very special interest. Yeah. And so we would sit and like every night we were like, okay, let's watch an episode of pop culture jeopardy of the first season, one of those YouTube videos. And then the night before our games, we were like in the hotel. And I also got these buzzers that you can plug into your computer. And there's a website that someone made who was like a former contestant that reads you fake questions or like reads you just random questions and you can buzz in. Right. And I did like 20 of those like before I went to bed. And then we found, I'm imagining a rocky montage. Oh, yeah. And then we found out we were in the semifinals. I was like, I'm doing 50 before bed. Because in, if you watch our episode, we were up against a team that had won like four games in a row. Yeah, yeah, yeah. As we were talking to people, we realized like we had put in the most like buzzer training out of a lot of the other teams. So it was like, all right, somebody's got to beat these fucks. So we were like, gave them a run on the buzzer and like, you know, and so.

23:36I just feel like the perfect formula, maybe, like maybe I'm out of the loop, perfect formula for an anime where it is because you have the opportunity for like scenes while they're doing the trivia where it's like a long moment, like a death note slow. Like he doesn't even know this one. But I'm and hands going towards the buzzer and they see the other side. The action speed is incredible. Every each person they face has like a bucky style specific skill. Yeah, everyone like has the certain that yeah, like they walk into one guy has a giant hand. There's a, there's a guy with photographic memory. He remembers every frame of everything. We have to distract him. You're like trying to flash. Like it is. It is a little bit like we kept telling ourselves everyone knows the answers. Like every other team knows the answers because they got here. So what is the thing that can differentiate us and it was physical strength. Okay. The karate. The karate. It was love. At the end, it was love.

24:37Yeah. And it was love. Did you have fun? It was honestly like one of the most thrilling things I've ever done. We did one game on the first day and I was like I immediately could do like four more games because it takes like half hour. Like you film the whole episode in like less than half hour. So it goes by so fast like a whirlwind and like the feeling of that music, the thinking, the jeopardy thinking theme. If you know the answer, it is the most like gratifying satisfying thing or here it is like yes. It's like this is my theme song. And then if you don't, it is like a psychological terror. It lasts for five minutes. Yeah. You're also like I know the parts of this song to know like we're approaching the end and that was also like in our. There's a key change. And our semi final game. I was like, oh no, we've hit the key change and we don't have the answer yet. Crunchyroll, no one likes your originals. Make this one. It was like it was so fun.

25:38Like everyone except for like a couple people were like super chill. Shout out to you. Shout out to the people that were in Super ever. All of my PCJ heads will know I'm talking about. But it was like we have a group chat where we all talk and like we've gone and visited each other and for the finals we had a meet up in Chicago of all the teams in the Midwest and we like had a big party and like did trivia together. Did you have to destroy you if you walk into a barter? Yeah, it was it was wild walking in with your Olympic medal. Did you feel extra conch inches of just the mechanics of it being a reality show maybe in a way that other people went not of bad game show. I think like there there was like a moment in the zoom interview where they were like, oh, reacts to getting the answer and like say if you know it or something. So then we went into the taping. So like we were the last game on the first day and we got there at like 11 a.m. We didn't start our game until like eight o'clock at night.

26:41So and it was a thing where like there had been a team that had been dominating and we eventually my friend said it. She was like they're wrestling heels at this point. Like they're winning, winning, winning. And the audience is like watching their friends go up against these people and then lose. So I was like we got to come out with the most energy, like the best attitude and like get the audience like on our side. And at a certain point like the I don't know if you felt this way, but like when there is a team that's dominating like that, it's I don't even know if the expectations are I felt the expectations are lower because I mean everybody's like falling to this behemoth or whatever. Yeah, it was just sort of like well, it wasn't even like oh my god, this behemoth. It was like we want to see our friends like play more than one game like like we like him to see our friends play a game. There's not that much fun in watching an underdog lose. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's in the first place. Yeah, yeah. And you're like, it's like, it's a 100 to zero. Yeah.

27:41That makes sense. He's really big. He's really big. And he knows tons about opera. And so it was like basically I was like if we come out there and have a really great attitude, we have a lot of energy. And my boyfriend's strategy was like, I'm going to be really nice to everyone on the crew. I'm going to remember everyone's name. And there were moments too where like the person was doing it putting our mics on the second day. And he was like, oh my gosh, thank you so much, Donna. That's a good strategy. And you could literally see her be like, you remember my name? No, like no one. That's the power of the protagonist in the show. Yeah. Basic social decor. No, literally. At the hotel we were staying at. I feel like I gave the most basic compliment to the door man. Yeah. And he was like, I'm going to help you figure out how your two cases fit your tribe. We were all headed to the airport and there were like four of us trying to fit in. Yeah. Because we took a friend to the airport and then we drove. And I it was like we.

28:42It was almost like when you get a double bounce on a trampoline like his energy and my energy were like multiplying each other. It was amazing. I had to text to get my car out of like the the the the Valley pocketed in a nearby car park. I guess it's just private to them. Parking laps for Americans. You know, oh yeah. And the zone. We're stamping out every last British part of you. It shouldn't be the old car parkie walkie. Is that Bay Locker cheese? Oh yeah. So it's Tuesday. What we got? It's also a battle we're fighting at work. Oh yeah. It's like there's some where he's like, I'm not giving that up. Sorry. Okay. Well, maybe give a little respect. We built all this. And look at our buildings here roughly 75 to 100 years old. The water fell down. As best as anybody heard of it. But yeah, there's a there. Yeah, there are those little yeah and and I think like even like the the Colin Joseph at all. Like by the end of the day, he was like, I want a competitive game. Like I want a really like good game. So when we came on and we had a lot of energy, we were able to like riff with him a little

29:45bit. Like he was like, all right. Like we got and so he was he was also he took it really seriously. I had like no opinion of him going in and like coming out. I'm like, what a nice guy. I this all so frustrating handsome good stuff. I'm like better looking in person. Yeah. I get it. Great job, Scarborough. I was like a fan of like because he was like a writer. It doesn't know for a long time. Yeah. And I had no opinion of his like on camera personality. But he because he's like Harvard guy is like look of his cut of his jib. It's very easy to dislike him. But I tried to charming in both in you know, weakened update and then also his his hosting job here. I thought it was like he did a really good job. You could tell he when something when a team was doing really well, he was really pumped. If he was like rooted, you could tell like someone got something wrong at like he was like, oh not like it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like someone like had like a big you know, I feel like he had good, uh, there was no like

30:46punching down or demean it like because everybody's there for everybody's a nerd about something. Yes. And he, I think did a good job of, um, letting everyone know when he was doing a bit. You know what I mean? Like it wasn't like putting laying someone out to draw. And there was even like a thing that my boyfriend, I were commenting on on the first season of like, there's a little bit of like, I'm Colin Joseph and I have to say like a rap lyric now. I think even that like kind of went away in the second season of like, this is all just equally trivia. Yes. And if something was, there were a few categories like we had one that was like, it was the internet's boyfriend. So it was like cute guys and like one of the answers like slutty little glasses. So he was even more like, that's a fun thing that you got to say. Yeah. He was having fun with that, but it wasn't like, he was like, I respect everyone here for knowing exactly what they're doing. Yeah. I feel like thin line that has at least started to be breached where, sorry, white people. Yeah. People getting out of the, don't just range knocked out of the night.

31:49Crossing off their bingo store. I think have like what they think, they think it is affectionate to do a ukulele version of a rap song. Yeah. To be like, look how silly it would be if I was doing this. As a thought, just a position here because it's obviously so there's no reason I would know this. And then to just being like, I like this song. Yeah. There's a, there's an earnestness in not kind of othering the material. It's like the rap song isn't from space. It's like we're all like humans. It's assuming that like black people will freak out if you just like it normally. Right. I thought with that too, it's like there's like no other genres where we do that. Right. We're not like if there's like a country song you're never like, well, I'm from a city. So I don't know. Yeah. In every food and boogie game of the world. I don't even know about that. I don't know about that. There's nothing else we like do that with. And in the specific country example, you have like the low nasex and Beyonce's of it

32:52all where it does seem like there's like an earnest play in that genre. And then people are still like, mm, doesn't look right. It doesn't look right. So like, I don't know why I hate this. Something something's wrong here. Not enough talk about beer. It can't be that no, because one of those works at my office. Yeah. I can't hate them. It was the only category that we all were like, no one knows what this is. What is happening is they had like an AI slop category in one of the earlier games, but it was like knowing the names of the. It was like Tom Tom Sejor. It was like the other one. It was like ballerina capuchina. Oh, yes. I know the ball. This episode of Sad Boys is sponsored by GLD. Okay. Think about this for a second. Turn your noggin on and get thinking. Everybody has those go to pieces, right? We're talking the shoes that go with everything. We're talking the shirt that goes with everything. We're talking the skirt that goes with everything. We're talking the jeans that go with everything. We're talking the t-shirt that goes with everything. I already said that one. You don't overthink these pieces.

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35:56Now back to the job. We were on our, wait, were you there? Or maybe it was just me. It was me and, oh, it was me and Drew and so on show. But we were doing, I'm actually the dropout show and there was one on memes. It was like describing memes or something. I don't know. I got all of them and no one else got into them. And I was like, oh, I'm sorry. I don't know. I guess I'm too online. I'm very salvagged through this. I was just like, I'm a computer like Googling like best memes, 2025. It's like, 20th memes, 25th. You're getting results for like a ARP subscription. Yeah, like my algorithm is messed up. We know your knees hurt girl. Yeah, we got it. What's a funny meme. Would you like a comfortable chair? So you best memes just forwards you to Facebook and says this one's for you. This is right. You should be here. But then they asked about slutty little glasses. Right. And we were just like, yeah, you can't study that.

36:57That's tough. You had to have seen slutty little glasses in real time. You had to be there. Real time. Would you? And it like went by on the day of the boy or time line. Like 6-7, I don't know how long. Like 6-7 had such a brief window in the spotlight. I think 6-7 went from, I think 6-7 is, in my opinion, actually a pretty, successful in its longevity in the same way that like 6-7 full. Because it went from 10 in the presence to four in the culture and has written for the entire way. It's like an actor that's in like three very successful movies or a musician that makes like two very successful albums, disappears and people are like, they are such a failure. They're millions of dollars. They're just like, no. Whatever happened to this guy, oh, they're resting on their billions of dollars. The 6-7 is going to keep being numbers as the issue. Yeah, there will always be 6-7. There will always be. And they'll often appear near each other, not together.

37:58It's a success. If my, like, you have to greet someone and you say, dog, dog, so hell, that's just a word for hello. Yeah. Well, that one's sticking around for a while. That happened. Oh, lost my track of thought. Something about 6-7. Oh, I was like, it was, thank you. Well, I was watching the NFL, I was watching the NFL last season. And as soon as Tony Romo said, a 6-7 joke, I was like, it's over. Like, pack it up. We could have done better. Um, the, uh, before we get on to some of our things, I can tell Anastasia wants to move us along. I could feel it. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I was talking about trivia for 45 million. I actually am really enjoying hearing about your experience because it's a dream. I wanted, I had one follow-up question, which is, would you apply for other game slash reality shows? Uh, I think I would, I would you call it. Would you enter the world? I would you call it? I would love to be on other game shows and like, it was a dream to like be on jeopardy. So to do pop culture jeopardy, like, oh my God, we narrowed in really on my like area

39:00expertise. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, uh, and like afterward, my boyfriend was like, you really, he's like, he could, he could tell he's like, you were thriving. Like, you were loving it. You should try for regular jeopardy. So like, I really want to, I, there's a lot more I have to study to be able to do that. And then I think for like reality shows, it's like, I would be so bad at a physical challenge. Like, I really like to sit comfortably. So, so was sorry. That's true. You know what I mean? And then, and then a, a long career of success. Right. And so I think like, maybe the right show eventually will like, there's a show on Netflix. It's from Korea. It's called the devil's plan. Does anyone watch? Wait, I've seen the poster. And it's a series of incredibly difficult puzzles and games. Whoa. And like, there's games where you have to like, do math and like do like grammar puzzles and like, and I'm like, if there was a game like that, we're just like playing increasingly difficult board games. Right. Like role playing experiences. Like, that would be super fun. But like, one thing that might prevent my success is my admittedly kind of weak ability

40:02to speak Korean. Yeah. There is one guy who's like, he's, I think he's from Canada, but he's like ethnically Korean. And he like knows Korean, but not a lot. That's cool. Like at least once in episode, he's like, what are they talking about? Yeah. And you see someone have to be like, okay, this is what's going on. Or he's like, can you explain the rules? And then they have like monkey buzz to swing on. He's like, yeah, great. Yeah. We have this. I guess technically a reality show. And but it's not like game oriented for say, but has anyone besides Jordan and I seen battle of the fates? Oh, I mean, I've just heard you talk. I do not know. So it's another Korean reality show where they take what is like 49 shamans and have them very short. He has to who can like read. I'm people. I'm so in. It's amazing. It's amazing. I like, I was the kid that like had a tarot deck is a kid and like learned palm reading. So I'm like, I'll brush up on those.

41:03But one of the best parts is that it is like so many. One person is a foot reader. One person has a TV for a head. One person. It's a tarot, but some of them have like trendy new tarot. Yeah, man. Listen, they know what they're doing over in Korea. That's really crack the code on some of the shows. It's very fun like follow along and try to like see if you can predict it. Because there were a couple of runs where like I was getting a bunch right and then Jordan was getting a bunch right. We were both kind of freaked out by really. I appreciate the, the, the, the, you're for the sake of my brand, gesturing some success my way. You were a child, oh, and freak. The first like three episodes your eyes were rolling back and you were getting them all right. There's another show where it's like I forget the name of it, but it was on Netflix where it's like they go and they get into like a fake crime scene and they have to like solve a crime. And I'm like, what honestly would love to do that? Is it professionally? Or a feature? Yeah. Yeah. I would love to do that. Like, set me up with like someone's like, Clipedia Brown shit like, so various riddles.

42:03There was one show. I got, I got something inbound once from a reality show, but it was like their first go of it. And so because it wasn't like an established show, I think we, we passed, but it was like, hey, you're a nerd. This is a game about puzzles. And I was like, okay. It's good. It's good. No puzzle. My brother, my older brother got approached to be on like one of those TLC dating shows of like get married after like three weeks. And he was like, he was like, he wasn't dating anyone and he was like in a like a transition period in his life, he was like, maybe I could do it. What was the catalyst for that? Is he just essentially on an email list? No, they, they look at you and they go, you must be single. They, some, some of these producers, they will make dating profiles. Oh, yeah. And they like go in the city where they're casting. Yeah. And like, he had like really great dating picture because he had a friend like to do a photo shoot. So he, like, he looked really like photogenic and so they were like, oh, this would work.

43:04And so we like sat and was like, okay, what would be your sad backstory? Right. And we had a family member that had like a health scare. So he was like, okay, my sad backstory is like after we found that like we all had to get scanned for like this, some disease, but none of us ended up having it. And he was like, that was like reaffirming. Like you have to live for today. Like so we were like, let's make your like fake backstory. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It would be great if someone in your family actually had the disease. I don't know how much of a regional barrier we had on this. You've made you with Darren Brown. No. Yes. The mentalist. Yes. He had he had a brief run of a show in America, but I want to say on HBO or something or show time, but he didn't become super big here. The thing about Darren Brown is like he's very much like he's very indexed on like this is not magic. This is not a spell. Yeah. I am not reading your mind. This is a trick in a very traditional sense.

44:06He did a like big reveal where he flipped heads on a coin 10 times in a row and then elaborately talked about it for a while and then revealed he just flipped a coin for two days. Yeah. Until it happened. Sure. And then it was like, oh, right. But he had a show. It's called like Darren Brown's doing something crazy, isn't it? Yeah. But he specifically, I was going to mention this to you because it is like very unethical by a period, but it is also a kind of like specific kind of. I think it was man control. A man control. A man control. A man control. A man control. A man control. A man control. A man. That first look at the mind is what I'm thinking. Yeah. I think the man control thing is what I saw because I remember the promo for it was like him taking someone's watch off of them. So the thing is a big part of the whole like the conceit of I think it was trick of the mind. It's also possible to think of a completely different man trick of the tree. But the whole pitch is that like he would have a show where a person would submit to be

45:07on the show because they wanted to work through a personal issue. And sometimes it would be like, I my wife cheated on me and I've never found it hard to trust people ever since. I lost my job and I'm struggling financially, but I'm too intimidated to reach out for another one that you know, actual personal stuff that like, you know, maybe would benefit more from a therapy. A therapy. A group therapy session. Yeah. I need matches. A therapist. A therapist. Sorcerer. Necro-Matsum. Let me talk to the spirit. But there's one particular episode where someone is I don't even really remember they're like, primary concern, but their friend had written in for them. And the people in question never find out if they've been accepted on the show. Okay. And they're friendly written in for them and said something in the vein of like they have, I think they're afraid of driving, I think it was of getting in a car crash, which fair. But it was like a devastating fear they had and it was prohibiting them, you know, from

46:10driving, from living blah, blah, blah. And they lived in like a semi remote area so the train was not here. The friend rides in, I mean, they're up with this. So Darren Brown's genius wizard plan is to stage a car crash crime scene. Oh, no. Remembering correctly, where none of the actors on set will acknowledge this person. They can talk to them. They can touch like the person can shake them and they will not look or talk to them at all. Then the cadaver is wearing an elaborate prosthetic that looks like the person. Oh, my God, who give them? They're reminded. This is to make them not want to explode in the car. They instead create a phobia of elaborate crime scene. They go to fear of becoming a ghost. On today's episode, we go kill this mother. I found it really helpful when Darren killed me. So then I realized he didn't. Seeing myself dead really opened my eyes to being alive.

47:13Like, we're going to make you go to your funeral. We're going to tell your kids. Oh, my God. Darren helped me by killing my kids in advance. And now I don't worry about them at all. Oh, yes. That is horrifying. Oh, my God. What the hell was that guy? Like, this is, it's like I've walked an hour and I'm a ghost. Like you would think that you were a ghost. Yeah, exactly. But color grading on this too is like scary. Yeah. It's a ghost. Great shot, by the way. Yeah. Bush confirmed. The woman is like looking at her hands. Like, am I real? Is that right? Which is, and she's not in the wrong here. Yeah. Like, that's what I would also be wondering. This is not, this is so far from helpful. Yeah. It's absolutely bad. Because like, what you would do is like, why don't we take you to like a test car track? So you can see like the car is saved. You can see about works. And he was in a set. He was like, what if you looked in your own corpse? Or die? Yeah. I'm scared of just like physical conversation and they're just, yeah.

48:14I don't know why the solution is ever like an extended Truman show. Like, this is so far from what would actually help me in any. It should be called Darren Brown, got you. So the situation is that her friend wrote in saying that her friend, she was not a safe driver. And so made her believe that she was experiencing her death as a ghost. Yeah. You know what? Finding out that she's not a safe driver. I'm back in. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Oh my god. Oh my god. Yeah. Good. Good. Get her ass. I hope she got the other person, too. I need to talk. Okay. So I want to talk about your book and kind of what. Yes, of course. What sorts of reality we cover. But this did remind me of one of the darkest shows on television, moment of truth. Yes. Are you familiar with Moment of truth? No, I'm not. 2006, dark time for television. Yep. 2006?

49:15It's going to be Iron Age. It's hosting. It's hosting. It's hosting. It's hosting. I'm going to the Broadway to laugh. Yeah. Is there people who came and filmed Moment of truth? Yeah. There was a truth being made actually. Yeah. It was hosted by Mark L. Walberg, who, it hosts Temptation Island. Yes. It is a beloved figure these days. And Mewch, a moot of mine if you don't, it was his birthday recently. So happy Birthday Mark L. Walberg. no relation. But then the, uh, but moment of truth, he was just a host and the show is essentially contestants. Uh, they answer a series of 21 questions, increasingly personal embarrassing, uh, where they are rigged up to a lie detector test. Mm-hmm. And if you, which is not admissible in court in this a fraught system, yeah, the polygraph. But the, the, the way they do it isn't the like, rig you up with a polygraph ahead of time. And so you don't know what the polygraph said. So you're incentivized to say exactly the same thing. You said a polygraph. You said match. Yeah. And this got so dark, so quickly. Um, and a lot of the show like

50:24this a fox order 13 episodes, um, it was supposed to be in fox's fall lineup, uh, was pushed off. There's a lot of episodes that didn't air. There's some episodes that aired in other countries. There's some things that were revealed that are like, oh, completely, you know, like just crimes. And, um, but one of the, one of the most absurd ones that aired, the famous one is a woman saying that she was still in love with her ex. And when she was like married or something, yeah, uh, ex comes out. And, uh, that's a whole like they thank you. And then she was like, uh, it was, it was at a time when you, uh, everyone would be like, so we hate this lady. And then they get her on all the morning shows. And it's like, we, you're, what bad? Um, welcome to electric test. Yeah. Uh, it was real easy to tell everyone to hate a lady at that time. Um, you could do polygraph on love island. Yeah. And I think there was, I don't remember exactly what happened, but

51:24they had like a series where it did like ruin someone's life for like horrible. And they are like, yeah, we can't do these anymore. So that's like the one thing they like will not do on the pilot. The one. Yeah. We will make you like sit on a cake and do fetish content. We will not hook you up to a polygraph. Yeah. That would be weird. We will, we will shoot a extreme close up of you kissing someone to the point that it's grotesque somehow. Yeah. Okay. But the worst one that I've seen that did air in the regular run of the show was a family. It was like a woman in the, the hot seat. She had her kids like in the panel, your families of the panel, whatever, your revealing these things. It comes out at the top that, uh, one of her kids was hit by a drunk driver when he was like five years old. And he survived. But it was like a near death experience or whatever. I write. And so really like appropriate for a game show. Yeah. And so then they halfway through when

52:26the question started heating up. They're, uh, they're, they're asking some questions. Do you forgive this person, blah, blah, blah? And then they're like, we have a special guest. It's the drunk driver who hit your son. And we're just like, what the fuck? You can choose to win a new car. Yeah. No, it's like, get literally though. It reminded me of the, the Darren Brown thing because it was literally that. And he's like, I've been trying to contact you for 21 years. Like, to apologize. I get like, whatever. Like why? Like we don't, we don't have to do this. We don't have to see like we don't have to see these things. Like in the early days of reality TV, like there is an era where they're like, what is this thing going to be? Like what is this thing going to be? And there's like a, a, a nice slice where it was just like, what if we just put the worst moment in people's lives on television? Like what if we just like embarrass someone? What if we like have them be like rejected publicly? What if we just, okay, so we got this call

53:28to see him. What about like a guy from cottage and a bunch of lions? Yeah. And like, I think it's like as a culture, we were like less of that. Yeah. Some of it fine, but not all. I think it's an underestimating of like, especially at that time, I think there's such a antagonistic relationship between media and the public. It's like these pigs, they'll take whatever slot they need. Kind of like, it did disrespect for like audiences, just as though you need like professional media literacy to empathize or care about people. Right. And like that can be, that's certainly a pretty significant degree of that. I think escalated by, or media, yeah, basically we're in, but like, people do feel bad seeing people suffer. They will feel that they feel bad, but it's fictional. And I think like, if you look at like where there were regular people on TV, it was like a game show or honestly, like cops. Like there was not like a mid, like for a long time, there kind of wasn't like a middle ground where we were just like seeing and interacting with like normal people that

54:32weren't famous or celebrity or something like on TV. And like if you were choosing to do that, that was like, okay, you're either on a game show or something's like really wrong with you. So I wonder if that also impacts of like, who, how we want to empathize with people that like choose to do these things. So like if you think about shows like Joe Millionaire, where it was like, we're going to tell these women on a dating show that this guy's a millionaire. Yeah. And then we're going to reveal that he's just like a guy with no money. And it's like the vibe is sort of like, well, that's what you get for going on TV. Yeah. Yeah. If you choose to go on TV, if you go on TV, he's on the wrong with you. Yeah. You're telling me the material circumstances of the person you're dating met, are you? Yeah. Oh, who is this? Or like things like this one where it's like, we're going to do like extreme plastic surgery on people. But it wasn't sort of like, well, this is what it's like to be a woman. Like, this is the toll that like living in a society with a beauty center in Axe Pond, you know, it's like, yeah, I don't know, plastic surgery. Like, look

55:33at these freaks. They they they feel this way because of the world. Yeah. Or it's more like it's a moral failure failure on their part and not a representation of that. Yeah, like that there's like, there was an era where reality view was the freak show. Yeah. And I think like we've definitely gotten away from that. And I think like where we see it now is stuff where it's like, here's a weird subculture that we're not a part of where like, you know, they would have stuff where they'd be like, it's Roma people like on TV. Like, I saw that one. It's strange that they like wear this outfit or have these big family gatherings or like, there was a like where it was like, Amish people or something. And so I think like a little bit of that like I listen, I love I love that breaking Amish show where they were. Oh, yeah, Jordan's big. We've been. We've been. Yeah. I might call this connoisseurs. Yeah, but like that like that freak show sort of doesn't exist. And then I think it's like, it's it's coded now. Yeah. Or if yeah, like if you have something like

56:35scandal, where you have these people doing this big moral breach. Yeah. The feeling of like punish the freak is like they did this moral transgression. You cheated on your girlfriend. And like, we're going to morally punish you. Yeah, they even went that direction with the new the new show in the Amish series. Suddenly Amish. Very. That sounds like a joke. Very funny. They just still you. We don't know. I watched all of breaking and return to Amish. Yeah, we had returned to Amish. After your room spring. I And it's the son of Luke Skywalker. So was that season four of lost when Jack is like, we have to return. It honestly is kind of a nonsense name. It's just a continuation of breaking Amish except as much as there is in the original series. Sometimes they're like, you know, we're kind of miss having a big hat. But go wear for a while and then leave it. And I,

57:37oh, yeah, but everything else sucks. Yeah. I talk about in the book of like Jersey Shore was like one of the first like mainstream ones where it was like, here's a subculture that you are not like privy to unless you're from this part of the country. And it really was like these people are freaks. I never saw the show. They're so. And I grew up with like, I was like told to like think of Snookie like a Voldemort. Yeah, but it's like this vague like, yeah, we all hate her. Don't know what she's from what she looks like. Exactly. Right. But it's like for me, it's like, I Jersey Shore is like one of my favorites because it's just like, it's stupid physical comedy. Yeah. They're all like getting drunk and falling down. It's also like a great reminder. Like I talked about in the book too of like, it was a much more like casual attitude towards sex and drinking and farting. So like as I was in like, get a date myself. But like, I was in like my senior year of college like when that show came out and I was like, oh, these people

58:38are partying as much as I or like, or I'm like, I'm not this bad. I'm like, the drunk and falling down is a genre. And I if you haven't written that down, bottle that that's such a funny concept. This is a getting drunk and falling down. Because I was I watched the real world. That was my like intro to reality TV. It was real world, road, real challenge like that like MTV universe of stuff. And it was just like, okay, so everybody's like ripped and they're drinking and partying a lot. But and that's kind of it that they're like, was it more to get drunk? But now they're in Austin and they're going to South by South. Yes. And like one of the things that like for the chapter on the real world, one of the things I talk about is like MTV and like the real world specifically was like the world promised to the millennial of like you will get to live in a cool loft in a cold city. You'll have like a job at a radio station. The free of your friends will be black and one will be gay. Oh, but not too black or gay.

59:40Black or gay. And like the black they put in medical commercials. But it's sort of like this part of like you will get to like experience people different than you. You'll get to share and learn from each other. And I think it sort of like has coded a big sector of like the millennial like outlook of like we want to meet people different than us. And we understand like living in a big city and like having a cool job is like something we all want to do. And so like you can look at all these different shows is like, okay, it's a little time capsule of like what was going on at the time. Or I thought that we're watching Survivor. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like because I went last year I went back and watched a bunch of seasons of Survivor starting from season one. And then like watching kind of like the highlight seasons that are often referred to. Yeah. Up to some of the modern seasons. And the way people talked about the world in the first season of Survivor where like Richard Hatch is like a gay guy. And it's like that gay guy is always doing weird

1:00:41things. He's making a fire. Yeah, I was like, and then to their credit, he was a weird guy. It was like, that was a specific. That was his specific weird guy thing. He loved being naked and he hated taxes. Yeah. He's like, he famously like with the jail. Okay. He didn't pay taxes on his winning. He didn't pay taxes on his winning. He's on his winning. He's a hero. Yeah. Okay. A sovereign citizen. A sovereign citizen for us all. But then you're also in season eight, which is their first all star season. Right. He essentially harasses one of the other contestants in a like sexual manner. Right. You could say, oh, he's gay. He's not like attracted to them. So it doesn't matter. He's violated someone's space in a sexual way. And that person, and I can't remember Jacob, could you Google who Richard Hatch? Who he's actually harassed in season eight? Because it's another one of his castmates from season one. Okay.

1:01:41The 2001 Wikipedia article. Yeah. This. Yeah. It's like a list of things. A Siu Hawk. Yeah. So then Siu, who is kind of painted to seem irrational. Yes. Because they're in a context where they have to pass each other on like a long plank or something. And he just like kind of like whips and waves his like junk around to her. And she's like, he's like, he's naked. I don't. There's a man like, he's in like a loincloth or something. Yeah. Like, sure. Like something. It's like enough to where the like the message is received. You know, and everyone's kind of like, why Siu making such a big deal about this? And then she, he used a modern term because her saying she crashes out, valid crash out. And everybody's just like, Siu's being so unreasonable. It's people fighting against the vice like, which one do I hate, Mo? Yeah. Okay. I really don't like this guy, but I fucking hate. And I was going to say like, there's also then, I don't know if there's more to it, but then

1:02:42I was just going to say that's in the edit. And that's how that's how the edit is presenting it, how it presents you. And it's even, um, even Jeff is like not super empathetic. Yeah. Well, I forget what season it is, but there's a season where one of the, it was like at a ceremony and the person who's trans and the other person, the person who was trying to, they were like, up like, parent, you know, set against each other. And one guy was like, as proof of this other person's untrustworthy, this outed them as trans and like, that's right. Yes. They're deceiving people. And, but that's a moment where you see the other contestants be like, that's not cool. Yeah. Like that's who this person is. That's not part of it. It's a commiserating Colton pull out. Yeah. It's a Michael Rappapole moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This guy is a little sneaky. I'm sneaky. But he's not saying is I want to eat my pizza like a weird lizard. I swallowed the spoon. But they look also like as a bachelor person watching Colton.

1:03:44Yeah. Colton has the weirdest history of any bachelor contestant because he put a low jack on his fiance's car after they'd broken up and he had to treat like a cast. He tracked a Cassie. He, he, he stalked her. He stalked her. He used a burner phone to text her all the time. But it's like you see these moments of like this messy like where you have someone like you're on the like it's surreal to look at it like you're in the survivor like at tribal council. And someone like out and you're like there's like palm trees and it has like their buffs and everything around them. But then you have but then it like switches into this moment of like hey let's not do that. Or you see these moments of like it becomes like a lesson. Right. But I think it like it forces the viewer to like hold the nuance like of all these different things at one time to be able to see Colton on the traders and be like Colton is a bad person. Independent. It like independent of this.

1:04:45But Colton has had this like second like life in reality because he came out and like found himself and got married and he can have this like pushback on Michael Rappapour. Who is another terrible person? Yeah. Yeah. Pound for pound. It's a heavyweight belt. Or even like I had friends that were watching the traders and they had no idea who Tom Sanovall was and they're like this guy so funny and I was like this man is a monster. Traderad lightly. And so it's like you have to it forces you to like hold all of this like nuance and understanding. And I think at the more that people try and like moralize around these people in reality TV. We like lose the actual like interesting thing that the genre gives us of like people are weird and contain contradictions and the more that we can like rationalize and reconcile the figures that we watch in their contradictions. I think it makes it more okay for us to hold contradictions into like be a messy person

1:05:49because like I know there's people in my life from the period they met me where they're like alley sucks. I hate that bitch. I was sick of you. Earlier today. And you change so much. But then there's people like it appears but where they're like I had alley as a teacher and she really like helped me or whatever. But it's like to hold all of that. And I think when people watch a lot of TV now it's like well Dr. Robbie has to be all good or all bad. Right. Oh my god. The hit. This course is so bad. You can't watch real housewives and be like. I think beer is actually the feeling of obsession. I'll say it. If you can't watch real housewives and be like Fadre is all good or all bad. Neenie's all good or all bad because they are just like incredibly complicated, weird, chaotic people. It's the weakness of like media being out currently. The media you consume in a spouse is you. Yes. Though the great American novel that I read that makes me a good person. Whereas like actual life experience the number one thing you get out of it is realizing how

1:06:53in a really good way, incredibly boring, most interactions are. Yes. And everyone is most of the time. The most valuable thing to see on real TV or rather the most valuable person to meet for your own biases is not a very very charming trans person. That's great. You have a friend. But to actually get perspective you have to meet a completely vanilla acquaintance that you have nothing in common with and you can say like, oh that's just most people. Yes. I see. I get it as opposed to like people being like, no, it's in fact if someone, if a marginalized community does something I don't like, they're actually not part of it. Yeah. You're actually not trans anymore. You bothered me. I would, when I would teach I would have students bring me scenes and I would watch it and it would be just like this amorphous, weird meandering something. And I was like, what was that? What are you trying to do? And they would go, well that happened that way. Like that's what happened in my DNA life.

1:07:54And I go, cool, I have to put this into a scenic structure because what we're making theater. I have to make, I have to give this scene some structure. And our lives don't have structure. Like we do not go on a five point journey. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The story circles. Yeah, we don't do that. And I think like it's also important when you're watching a TV of like they had to take all this footage and put it into 42 minutes with and commercials. And then it's like the edit, right? It's like the edit becomes, I think that that's a thing where like for like Anastasia and I worked on a lot of the reality TV videos that I've done together. And there's always this thing where it's like this is a character because we don't know the three dimensional person. No. No, the edit and getting angry at the actors from heated rivalry. Yeah. Kind of mindset. In the end, like which people do. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Oh my god. I think media discurses in the can because the pit stuff is crazy. Yeah, right. Dr. Robbie, why is he being so mean?

1:08:55So he's supposed to be a doctor and they're all good. Yeah. I do wonder, sorry. No, no, please. No, no, no, no, please. I do wonder and would love your thoughts on this, Ali. If the producers from like 2006 to now, if you feel like, has their head, was their hand heavier back in the day or I just hear so many stories of like how fake and constructed they tried to make things in that early, yeah. A reality TV landscape. Yeah. And also the edit and like trying to make someone the villain or convincing someone to give answers that made them the villain or whatever. I think like two things are probably happening of like one, a lot of reality TV, the very early seasons, they are trying to map on to something scripted.

1:09:56So like real housewives was like not like a parody, but it was drawn, it was like this is the real version of desperate housewives. And like the OC was a Laguna Beach and all those shows are a real version of the OC. Right. And like NYC prep of gossip girl and stuff like that. So they were really like, okay, we have and if sometimes you go and watch some of those early shows and it's like, oh, they're really making it hit like, there's like act breaks like sitcom like. Or they're trying to hit like a documentary film sort of structure. So if you look at something like the real world, that feels a little more like a documentary. It's a little more loose. Right. And so I think as reality TV has like come into like come of age sort of, it like has its own conventions. So you can like make what you want to have happen in a different way. Yeah. That you can rely less on the edit because you know how to make it happen in the moment.

1:11:00And like you know how to like ask the questions in the moment. For all of you. And there's people that are like that would show up to like a lot of the people in those early seasons of the real world, like they are just like a dude or just like a lady that are just like that might one of my favorites is from real world New Orleans Kelly. She like got a boyfriend that lived in town and just was never home. So she's like not in any of the scenes. That's the first point because she's just like with and her boyfriend like didn't want to be on camera. So she's like I'm just going to go stay at his house. I also want the real world. I watched real world from the first season. And San Francisco had a doctor. So she's never home and a cartoonist who was just like a normal dude. They ended up getting married. The doctor and the cartoonist. Yeah. That's a show. Wow. Or you wouldn't because they pretty much cut them out of the real world because they were so boring and normal. The that is where I'll now some dark stuff happened just because of the nature of audiences

1:12:06with reality TV. But have you ever seen Tara Souse? I've heard of it. So Tara's tears house. I feel like it does is a it's a Japanese reality show where it essentially is like six strangers pick to live in a house. They do kind of just do all the mundane stuff. And then maybe there's some light nodding. Oh, let's go to the beach. Oh, let's do this thing. But then the some of the content comes from taking mundane interactions and then having a panel of comedians on the couch like discussing it in the moment and and that's like a cultural convention, right? Like that's yeah, that's what Japanese show. And it was like a show that me and my coworker, my youco like used to love watching and talking about and it it felt like kind of like that old era of reality TV with some like levity of the like comedian stuff. But also it's like there wasn't forced romance. There weren't like seemingly forced storylines. There are like one of the guys Hanson for those who who are ball-nowers was just like

1:13:10an architect and he's like mostly giving everybody advice and doing his job. Yeah, like he's like minding his own business. And then like sadly though with that show because it was doing the thing kind of like love island does in the States where it's it's coming out as it's still happening. Right. There was someone who for their body type was being bullied and ended up, you know, doing self harm and ended up passing away. Oh, and it's the show is canceled. And it's I don't know if it'll ever come back, but like for like how it captured like the mundanity of life, I think it's a really interesting case study. I always feel as though if it were an American show, it maybe would take a hiatus. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I mean, bachelor just had that with what's your face? The Mormon wife lady. Oh, Taylor Frankie Paul. Taylor Frankie Paul. The domestic abuse charge.

1:14:12Yeah. That video of it came out. Well, they were going to they knew she had this domestic abuse charge or domestic violence charge whenever it was legally, but it was mainly that video of it came out. And you could see you forced our hand to know. It's like you could see like how that how involved she it because I think they were sort of spinning it of like everybody was doing. Yeah. We don't even know what happened. But it's like you see her like her all of metal stool like Donkey Kong like over her child. And you're like, okay, that she's involved there. Yeah. But it's real. But you are what is published. So you can you can feel the like studio execs like, okay, but how do we make I mean, we just film this whole season. Right. And then they like, there was some sort of there was some sort of resolution in the legal sense where both parties were held culpable or something. And then I heard tell the Vera bringing back that season. Yeah. Like my conspiracy theory is they're going to like drop it on Hulu in the middle of the

1:15:13night. Yeah. And just like a random night like over like a holiday. Yeah. It's like, who knows? Who the USP in the wrong day. But it's one of those things of like they picked her. This like her history was very well known before this happened. And like she's someone who like was very messy on secret lives more than lives, very messy before that. And it's also like the bachelor at was in a slump. They didn't know what to do. Like bachelor bachelor at like that's my lane. It's like they're in a slump. They didn't know what to do. They were already on high on on a pause. And they picked someone because they had name recognition because they were messy. They wanted to deliver a messy season. But it's also like there's no other woman, especially no other woman of color that could have ever had this kind of backstory and been picked to be the bachelor at. So it's like I can't there's only so outraged. And I can be because it's like you want it. You know you're getting it. No, absolutely. Like you want her to get in fights and send people home and do all this other stuff.

1:16:14But we just can't have footage of her. Yeah. And you got domestic things out there. Yeah. It was out there. It was a year's old situation. Right. And I think like put a mouth gips in in your movie. Yeah. Like goes back to your question of like they want someone now all these shows like Real Housewives, Vanderpump Rules. If these people that are like if I don't deliver a season, I know I'm getting cut or I'm getting demoted. I'm not going to be a cast member. I'm going to be a friend of. I'm going to be whatever. So you have these people like there's all there've been accusations against Kenya, one of the greats that she like hires someone to be her boyfriend for the season. And so she can have a storyline that she is a boyfriend. And they're like on Vanderpump Rules after scandal all the producers were getting to some of the other cast members of like if you can't get Ariana and Tom to film a scene together where Tom can apologize, the show is going to get canceled. So then you have the cast. So then you have the cast being like I have to produce this season of this show.

1:17:16And like the way that sometimes people talk about it like at the reunions or in these other moments or they're like you're not bringing anything why you're not giving anything like why are you here. So now you have people like the producers don't need to push that hard because Eric Jane will she'll produce herself for the season and be like well I got to have a record come out this year so I can have a storyline this year. Who was the who was the housewives person who accused Colton of like cheating in the traders who accused him of cheating? At least there are no. No, no, no, it wasn't Lisa Rennett. It was it was the one who said let's do let's do a conga line. Oh Candace. Candace. Yeah. Candace. And like I felt Candace. I was upset by the fact that these are recap Potomix. So I like watch a lot of Candace and like she's such an intro. She like really wants to self produce but like is 5% is always a little off.

1:18:17I was like I don't like it almost and I don't know how traders works but like survivor where it's like it's a game show so there's certain like rules and stuff. Yeah, that's the same. Yeah. And so I'm like I'm like you don't I know you're trying to do like some self producing here but like what you're actually accusing is you're using a fraud. A fraud which is actually like now Colton's done a lot of stuff and you know but this particular thing kind of is this is like you evaluate the season. Exactly. You could hold and like have it. This is like very not the same thing but like on Jeopardy on Pompel to Jeopardy they really make sure you know exactly what you can do or say like they run you through it. There's all different kinds of things where they're like if you do this you will not pay you out. You will not your episode won't air like there's all like they're all. This way or even there's like okay so this is very very behind the scenes.

1:19:20There's certain things you can't wager. There's certain numbers you can't wait. But of course for example you cannot wager for 20 or have your bid like have you know what you bid equal for 20 so there's lots of there's and so you can imagine what some of those other numbers would be right that are like meme numbers but also like that would be like dog whistle. Right. Oh my gosh. I didn't even think about that. Oh no. Oh my god. So there's stuff where they're like we will like and so like there's moments where like if you've watched the season like you can probably think of like a situation to talk about but it's like they will make you like do something over or like you know or if there's a thing where it's like if you think someone is cheated they there's a mechanism for if you think someone's cheated or you saw an answer or something like there's all these different mechanisms because it's like it is the FCC is involved because it is like a game show is funny like there's all this different stuff so and they make it we had

1:20:23to sign like a you to sign a thing before you went they did it again on the day they had someone who's like I'm the person that like is a liaison with the FCC that's like I'm standards and practices right you know you can't swear so you know on and on and on and on and on and grab call it can't grab that. Yeah. Give me the answer. He's still smiling. You like. But it's like anyone that's like not clear on it is you don't live on our planet. Like your mind is like not you're not clocked in so like yeah if you have someone and it's like that would be a real housewives he think to be like they were cheated they did right. You don't know. And they're on selling sunset like that Christine got fired so if anyone wants to selling sunset she approached a client and said I'll give you $5,000 to stop working with this other broker and like work with me and like a great reality TV move that is illegal. Yeah. As a real estate agent and so they were like we have to fire you.

1:21:25It's like when those stick tons of people like so like financial life hack you just take somebody else's wallet. Yeah. And so it's like you can't you can't do that. No, TV. And but like Christine is she did interviews like after she was fire she was like I moved to LA to be an actress I took an acting class and improv class I was working as a realtor because it's like a flexible job. But when I was approached to be on selling sunset I was like oh be a villain like that seems like a more fun thing to do. Right right right. So you yeah it's like there's but it is a thing of like you can't you can't let your gig like fuck up your day job. Yeah. You can't actually hit the other wrestler with a real sled show. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just going back to the kind of way that things have changed over time when I look at the bachelor today I feel like they're in a prison of their own design where it's like this kind of a pure Americana like this storybook romance thing and it's like a 23 year old

1:22:26getting married and it's like you just like the the well has been completely poisoned the people that would go on the show and Ernest don't exist. Right. Yeah. Like or they've never heard of the show and they live like in the middle of nowhere and you don't have the way to source them. Yeah. And seeing that show is in this very weird like the way they get to Taylor Frankie Paul is like man we've really kind of cooked ourselves on this and then and because there's so much of I guess like I think about Chris Harrison getting fired and that all of these like controversies and yeah. And I think like with the bachelor and the bachelor at especially like they're kind of two audiences that watch like there is the very like traditional like heartland Americana exactly. They don't they want a white Christian bachelor bachelor at right and then there's like a group of progressive people that are like I watch this to turn my brain off but I still want it to like be a little bit of like a female fantasy or like a you know sort of like romantic fantasy.

1:23:26Yeah. And so I think like starting with like Caitlin season Caitlin Brister is a while ago of like you're seeing these audiences like interact and like sort of bump up against each other where you have a bachelor at that had sex before the fantasy sweets and it's like yeah it's like having sex with a guy on the third day it's like pretty normal. Yeah. And then it's outside of this like it's not in this world. Yeah. And then you get like I was talking at my one of the other book events of like my friend and I were watching the ultimatum like the most recent season. And like the men on that show are spouting like manosphere content. So it's like how are so to source now contestants for these shows. How do we like you know find people where it's like okay what women want to go on a show where the guys are all going to be manosphere or do we say like we're going to do like Christian influencers. Yeah. And that was the thing too.

1:24:26Like Amy's there was like a Mormon audience on ABC which is like why they also went with like Taylor Frankie Paul like secret lies more wise was huge. Where there's a data scientist somewhere who's like I've cracked. I've cracked. Yeah. And it's like you know but also like there's an aspect of the Mormon religion of like to promote and like show the values of your religion. So it's like what's the way to get to a lot of people very quickly. Yeah. Social media or reality TV. Right. And so you are like on a show like the bachelor a lot of these dating shows you're watching like this like you know these two segments of the culture like running up against each other. And even on the most recent season of love Island they were accusing one of the women of being lustful. And again it's like you all did a torque contest with Megan the stallion where you sat on cake and then some guy like licked it off your thigh. I'm so funny. Such a weird yeah love. I just want to wear it. It's like granite slate with. Um I don't know if you've checked this guy. There's 10 rules to keep in mind. Like what was her name the um she had a dash in her name that season before last love

1:25:32Island USA who like she Bella Bella Bella Bella where she was like hey I actually don't unless it's on a challenge I'm not going to like kiss and hook up because that's not my style. And the amount of conversations they had where it's like well she's old fashioned you know like this one. And in there they're like but she looks like the Instagram model. So whoa whoa. And then oh the thing I was going to say about the bachelor and being in a prison of its own design is that it also you can also see it with the way that reality TV used to be produced where there's so the bachelor more than anything else I've seen does so much audio surgery and flipping the Franken bites the Franken bites the just outright lying about what a cliffhanger will be like before it's it's so much um setting the amount of disappointment you'd get if you earnestly believed that something was going to happen on each of these commercial breaks.

1:26:32Yes. You know what I mean like it's just like never they can never deliver on the promise. I'm gay and then it comes back from commercials I'm gaining great a steam. It's so fresh. Yeah. And I think that would be more confusing. This season or what it was a phrase they say it's on a the most dramatic season. The most dramatic season ever. And it's like the most dramatic finale. I'm going to kill a guy. Oh my god. There's going to be a murder. I'm also like there's only like three outcomes like that could ever happen on the finale and like they say together they get engaged they say together don't get engaged. Stay together. Get engaged or don't stay together. It's like yeah unless like aliens arise. Oh my god. It's because that 911 show. Yeah. They look like up and it's the meteor. Oh my god. Colton and Hinges just George swallowed. What did they all my god. Tracity and Mike Lowe I got it stung by bees.

1:27:34Oh and then did you see it's the it's the Netflix show where they bring a it's a second chance show. Oh what is it perfect match perfect match. Yeah where they had a Clayton and like one of the finalists from his bachelor season. Yeah. They were like hashing it out in a way that's like felt like DLC for like their their their season. I was like this is so like that is truly just someone being like okay I'm going to stoke as much drama as possible. Can we cast this person and this person who if they're in the same room together have something that the world hasn't seen them resolve. Exactly. Yeah. And like but also like there's moments where it's like oh my god. This is the brilliant version of that. We're on pilot Pete season. They brought Hannah Brown in for a challenge. Yeah. And they genuinely were like our story is not finished. And they like had to delay starting a challenge for like an hour while they were like hashing it out backstage and it kept cutting to them and they both like had their head in their

1:28:37hands being like why did you come here and she was like they wanted me to come here and he's like but don't you not like and they have this really really deep conversation that they eventually were like do you join the season and I just bring you on as a contestant. But it's like yeah like that to me is so more interesting than just like I who at whatever Clayton has been for somebody like dog and for Colton. I by the way shout out to what was her name Kate. It's either Kristen or Kate Linder. She on the bachelor on the bachelor because she became like an autism influencer. Oh, Demi. Demi. Yes. I don't have any of my friends. It sounds exactly like Demi Christmas. And Demi Christmas to you. No, because she like it's so interesting seeing how she was edited versus like her when she's in charge of her own narrative.

1:29:38And I was like oh my gosh, she was like a villain in the Colton season in like Cady and me and she's just like here's how my autism presents and I'm learning about like how to you know like like it's such an it was it's like actually very cool. But I feel like that story is not the type of story we told because what's autism that doesn't exist in my my pure world. Yes. And it's beautiful women. I like one. Burn it. It's like there's a separation right now between like bachelor style content and love on the spectrum style content. But I'm like I almost wish it isn't on it's that underestimating the audience again. Like this. It. People love seeing the veil get torn a little they don't want it broken. They do want the K-fabe but seeing like oh they're not it that room doesn't have proper lighting. Oh, they're filming this handicap style because stuff moved around. Yeah, the underloaf like video.

1:30:41It's the same thing in the romance novel of like there's only one bed. I'm going to get through the night like we want you do want to see like all right. What if we put these two in a sexy situation. Colton shopping defense. We got a runner. It's the same thing with any kind of like you were saying it's these shows kind of run maybe a little conservative. Yeah. And part of me wants it to unveil a little more of the outliers like and I know like queer dating shows are very rare. I know they're queer ultimatum happened. And also the producers of Teres house made a show called the boyfriend which is all gay men who live in a house together. Oh, interesting. And it's very cute and sweet and I enjoy it. The battle royale. And they still get a fun of which is I'm back in.

1:31:44I think part of the why they why it can be an issue to produce a show a dating show with queer contestants is you have the option to be like why don't like the bachelor. Do you want to go? Yeah. They're like no, no, no, no, no. Like focus, you know, like focus up. So they did a season of the bachelor at in New Zealand. I believe for the bachelor at was bisexual. So they had half men, half women. Oh my God, the tequila tequila. They did a tequila tequila. And then there was on it was like the bachelor Vietnam maybe at where there were two women on the season that did not come in as like queer. But they were like, I've fallen in love with this other person and they have a rose ceremony where he's like giving out the roses. And one is like stop. I have something to say to this person. And she's like leave with me. And they like you're gonna manufacture something. I love that. That's your job. It's funny how they imagine social media if that would it. It's like so obviously it's like if it was like maybe Thanos doesn't get the glove.

1:32:46And then he goes home. It's funny. And but there's also a show is are you the one come one come all where it was all queer people and they this premise of the show is they match you by a matchmaker and you have to find who the matchmaker decided is your perfect match. And if everyone finds their match by the end of the season you split like a pool of money. That's he split up the other couple. But so they did a season where it was all queer and pansexual people and bisexual people. So it was like suddenly you went from like, Oh, I can my match is one of these 10 guys to my match can be anyone in the house. So like the mathematical odds of it skyrocketed. But then you also just had a house full of like it was on MTV like queer people that were drinking. So they were like, well, we can just have an orgy before we decide to like and they and like there was one contestant who was like a recently out trans man was like, I'm going to like all these people think I'm hot. Let's go hook up. But it was they had some really interesting conversations because there was one contestant

1:33:48who was convinced that their perfect match wouldn't be a like a feminine presenting man or non binary person. And that there was a person who they had had a connection, but this there was, you know, like, and the person was like, you have to confront that you don't think them people are attractive or are the person that you should end up with. Because if you look at like how these other couples are pairing off, we have all the same like characteristics. You need to confront that you think you can't be with someone who's non binary or right. You've been to analyze something a while ago. That is like, and like you see the person be like, you know what? Yeah, I do. That is what is going on. But it's like, yeah, it's like those are way more you make me want to watch. I know this feels like the difference between the, are you going to be my first and Virgin Island, the British show? Because we watched you see Virgin. No, I was in that. It's so fancy. It's more of like a sexual education documentary style show than like a traditional reality show.

1:34:56It feels like love on the spectrum and in how gentle and sweet it is. But it's like a bunch of people go to a camp to understand their sexual. Oh my gosh, great. And I tried most episodes. Yeah. You hate it. There's also, yeah, just because I, no, but there's also the, it was like a hulu show that was like, are you going to be my first where it was like, we found an island of firt. And it's like, I think I can lose my sex, lose my sex. I think I can lose my virginity on this island. And then like, it's just like all played out. No one loses their virginity on the island. There's no, and it was like, puns on. Oh, I remember this. I was hosted by Colton, which I, okay, they in Caitlin, I knew there was a, where I was like, when Colton described his virginity, I was like, a straight man has never described why they didn't have sex for the first time in this way. He was like, I never got around to it.

1:35:57I was like, oh, you're a professional football player. You're telling me like, no, I do my taxes yearly because I just, I'm going to miss the days of that. And I was like, this something is happening. I also love it. Like Colton, like barely had, yeah. Colton, it's barely had time on like an NFL practice squad. And they describe him as this like NFL star. And the bachelor has this way of building people up where it can be like, I took algebra one in high school and it would be like math expert. King of numbers. King of numbers. There's like on Rachel Lindsey season in her final three. Two of the guys were both personal trainers. They described the black guys, the personal trainer and the white guy who is a personal trainer as an entrepreneur. Okay. All right. So that's awesome. And he went into the final two. And I remember like in the fandom when people were like, wait, he's also a personal trainer. What is going up? But he does it with his mind. But like the people that they like, they give a better like occupation.

1:37:00And you also see like for a long time, they wouldn't label anyone as like a content creator. Right. And now they'll label people as a content creator and an influencer on the bachelor like as their job. A lot of coverage. I think if you are hiring for medical device sales, there should be an interview question that's, are you planning to leave to go on a season of reality television? There's actually a, there's no dental hygienist love. They all went on reality TV. All right. Allie, this has been such a pleasure. Oh my gosh. It's been a treat. Where can people purchase your book? And can you write us of the name? Yes. The books called Reality TV for snobs. You can purchase the book and the audiobook anywhere that you purchase books or audiobooks. I get royalties just the same. This is just go buy it. Even if you just want to hear the funny voices you chose. Just the funny voices I do. Please buy it. Leave a review. You can find me on Instagram and Twitter at WT Flankstake or my website, alliebarthwholes.com. If you don't buy the book, we will simulate you.

1:38:01Oh. In a crash. In a crash. Make you think you're a ghost. I mean, Emmy winner by the way. What is it? I said, Emmy winner by the way. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much. I totally forgot that. That's right. I'm in town for a book event and then the creative arts Emmy's are on Saturday. Wow. And they said the sad boys would never talk to me in Emmy winner. I've heard that. Yeah. Yeah. They keep coming up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm going to get it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'll. Yeah. Go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1:39:02For you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's why.