Fact checking VP JD Vance's statements on Iran war, oil crisis

0:00For me, being a part of this place has always been about the people, not about the politics. From the field to the studio, Jacob is finding the heart of the story, connect with Jacob Soberov. Weekends at 10 a.m. Eastern on MS now. America has fought a lot of wars since I've been alive, 42 years, and we have won almost none of them until Donald J. Trump became the President of the United States. Will this more be over by the time of the midterm elections? Okay, let me get it. I don't. I wouldn't call it a war. Right now, there is no active shooting. I recognize there has been places where this has flared up. Major combat operations, again, major combat operations lasted for about six weeks. President, Vice President, JD Vance, playing press secretary at the White House yesterday, praising President Trump for winning a war, then moments later claiming it's no longer a war. Good morning, welcome, good morning, Joe. It's Friday, September 4th with us, the co-host of our 8 a.m. Our staff writer at the Atlantic, Jonathan Lamir, MS now,

1:02senior natural security reporter David Road, managing editor at the Bullwark Sam Stein, and White House correspondent for Bloomberg, Jeff Mason. A lot to get to this morning. David, I want to start with you just to pick through a little bit of what we heard. There's a lot to go through with what Vice President Vance said yesterday in the White House briefing room. But let's start with the idea that we are not currently engaged in a war. The war is one that's been used many, many times by President Trump over these last seven months. But there has been active fire just in the last couple of days. Look, there are 50,000 service members serving across that region right now. Just give us the scale of this. There are 19 naval ships. There are several squadrons of airplanes. There's air battery units. There's thousands of paratroopers. And so you can get into a legalistic argument, but this is obviously a war. And then what was extraordinary was that he sort of mentioned flare-ups so that there's no active shooting. Two days earlier, the United States carried out attacks and retaliation for

2:02Iranian efforts to mine the straight-of-war moves. And the times that are very deep dive on us, we don't have this confirmed ourselves. But it does look like an American bomb hit. And I believe it was a mistake. A house where a wedding was occurring. Five people were killed. Some of them children, it's my understanding, and dozens of people were injured. So to sort of call that a flare-up, you've just had this whole, you know, the experience of the Lincoln, the longest ever deployments. The only, sorry, there's no American aircraft carrier. We had to send the one we had near Taiwan into the straight to replace the Lincoln. So to play this down, to say we're not at war is stunning to me. And then just lastly, the point about we're not at war. But by the way, the president now we're winning wars because of President Donald J. Trump. George H. W. Bush would disagree. He, in terms of no president's ever winning wars recently, at least, you know, he successfully drove Iraqi forces out of Kuwait. He invaded Panama and arrested that country's leader.

3:04I'll leave it there. But it's just extraordinary to say we don't have a war and then say every past president for the last 40 years has been a failure. As long as we're talking about wars, going back to 84, the Cold War comes to mind as well. 18 American servicemen members so far killed in this war with Iran. Hundreds more have been injured. Our Gulf neighbors have been attacked across the region and on and on and on. So as you heard there, Vice President Vance yesterday did reject the use of the word war to describe what's going on in Iran. Those comments came hours after Iran fired at US ally Kuwait in retaliation for American strikes on Iranian targets earlier this week. The Vice President also refused to provide a timeline for when the conflict may end and steered clear of predicting when rising gas prices may return to pre-war levels. Will this war be over by the time of the midterm elections? Okay, let me get in. I don't, I wouldn't call it a war. Right now there is no active shooting. I recognize there has been places where this has flared up.

4:06Major combat operations, again, major combat operations lasted for about six weeks. And since then we destroyed, of course, their nuclear facilities with midnight hammer. With epic theory, we destroyed their defense industrial base for producing weapons and also a lot of their conventional military. And then we made it harder for them to rebuild that nuclear program. But when you ask when will this end? You're asking me a question like when will the Iranians stop shooting at ships? I think the reality is I don't know the answer to that question. You would have to ask the Iranians. We're not going to set an artificial timeline because let's just say hypothetically, let's say I told you three months. Let's say I told you three days, okay? And then the Iranians start blowing up oil and gas ships and the United States is the only country with the capability to ensure that those oil and gas ships get to market. Well, what I would say is it would be irresponsible for us to write out our strategy in our timeline for an Iranian nation that simply cannot honor its commitments and cannot stop shooting at commercial ships.

5:08On July 2nd, Treasury Secretary Besent was asked when Americans could see $3 gas again. And he said maybe by the Labor Day things haven't worked out that way. But do you have a new time table for Americans on when they could expect lower gas prices and should they not expect to see $3 gas again until at least 2027? Well, in defense of Scott, he said maybe by Labor Day because we're talking about things that are inherently unpredictable. And I think it's important, you know, I'm a strong believer that the American people are fellow citizens and we should speak with them honestly about these things. And the fundamental reality is that the reason gas prices are so high right now is because the Iranians are shooting at commercial shipping. Gas, frankly, could have been much, much higher were it not for our efforts. But I'm not going to make a promise about when it's going to return to $3. What I will say is that we have to remember why are we doing this? Number one, it's so that Iran never has a nuclear weapon. And number two, what we're doing right now is protecting

6:10commercial shipping in order to ensure that we don't have a worldwide energy crisis. The Well, this morning the price of diesel fuel is at an all-time high. The average is 585 a gallon because diesel is the primary fuel for freight and delivery networks. Consumers likely will face higher prices as businesses across all sectors have to pay for those rising transportation costs. Meanwhile, the average price for a gallon of gas back up to $4.15 that's nearly a dollar more than it was at this time last year. So Jonathan Lamar, we had secretary of best in a couple days go blaming Ukraine for rising gas prices. This is the problem with the JD events and others trying to explain away the war and try to put out this cloud of misinformation about what's really going on. Americans watch it every day when they go to the gas station. They see the price of gas and they know it's because of the war in Iran. Yeah, we've been chronicling this since the war began, whether it was President Bill Clinton or top members of Joe Biden's administration. They would say

7:12almost the first thing they would check every day was the price of gas because it is so visible. It's on these billboards that dot the side of American highways, American major roads. Consumers, drivers, voters, Americans know the price of gas because they're either actually filling up their car or at the very least they're driving by it and they can chart whether it's going up or down and it is definitely up. The vice president there was a bit of a show. He certainly performative in the briefing room. Combative at times. He also took a swipe at Ted Cruz, which I found interesting considering in the wake of news that Cruz himself might be looking at a 20-28 presidential run, which we certainly assume vice president and Vance will be as well. But Jeff Mason, he had no good answers about this war because they don't have any good answers about this war. The president and his team have been trying to to wind this down for months. We had a couple of days of violence earlier this week. It slowed some but as the Vance is right and it could perk up at any time, it does seem like they're focusing the Americans on the

8:12straight of for moves. That needs to be the goal. We need to get the straight open. It's true. A little more oil is getting fuels getting through there than previously but still nowhere near where it needs to be to actually have any meaningful impacts on energy prices. In fact, as Willie just read, they're going the other direction. They're going the other direction and they're going the other direction at the wrong time. You can see the president and the vice president trying to shift a little bit into campaign mode heading into the midterm elections. We understand the president's going to do a lot more travel. The vice president is out dishing a little bit in that briefing room yesterday. As you say, John, they don't have a strong answer on Iran. Caitlin asked him about a timeline. The president laid out a timeline at the very beginning of the conflict and said four to six weeks. Now we're more than half a year in. There's a reason that people are asking promises were made at the beginning of this conflict by the administration or at least forecasts were made. The president used to say, I'm ready for a deal or we're going to get this wrapped up quickly or I think the Iranians are going to make a deal.

9:14All of that is proven not to be true. That has had an impact on the markets. It's had an impact on energy prices and it's going to have an impact at the voting booth. Sam Stein, I'm sure you've been hearing what Politico has been hearing, speaking with Republican campaigns, operatives. Reporting many of them have come to grudgingly accept the Iran war will in fact last well past the November election and that gas prices will remain stubbornly high. We're seeing a lot of this. We're hearing White House staff talking about lawyers that they're going to hide higher to get ready for the Democratic takeover at least to the House of Representative, all the investigations that may follow. But in terms of voting, this Iran war and these high gas prices now Republicans are saying out loud unlikely to go away by the midterms. Yeah, but you see, Will, if you don't call it a war, it goes away. That's what you got to do. Okay, yeah, just wish it away. Actually, this is a pretty remarkable press briefing by Vance. When he says things like this was inherently unpredictable in the US, is the only country that can

10:18have the capacity to open the straits and we are doing this to protect from our shipping. He is alliding the fact that he was the one who negotiated or tried to negotiate the memorandum of understanding to bring an end to the war. When he's talking about that, we can't have a time frame on this. There was a time frame. It was a 60 day time frame under the memorandum of understanding to end the war and it failed. It was his diplomatic failure, which is why we are in this place. And at one point in the press conference, he said something akin to, you know, it's a response with the Europeans for not helping us reopen the strait because their energy prices depend on what's happening in the strait too. And it's almost as if he's just trying to evade out of responsibility for being in administration that launched this war. This is a war of choice. And it's because it's a war of choice. It's because it's got no end in sight. It's because it is inherently unpredictable. And it's because there is no defined purpose to it. That it's becoming

11:19a political liability in November. It'd be one thing if we could say, yeah, this is the objective, this is the time frame. We recognize their sacrifices to make, but here's why we're doing it. But he can't do that now. He can't even call it a war now. And that becomes impossible to sell politically. And John, the president has come all the way back around to talking about regime change again and the people of Iran needing to rise up against now these more extreme leaders that have taken over the country after the United States and Israel took out the leadership all those months back. Also, the president has harped on the idea that Iran must never get a nuclear weapon. Well, yesterday in that news briefing, JD Van said, we took out their nuclear capabilities with operation midnight hammer a year and a half ago. Right. So if that is true, why do we go into this conflict in the first place? And this is, I mean, as you just said, Willie, and again, this is from day one, the administration has not been able to offer the American people coherent reasoning as to why they went to war with Iran. And it is indeed a war. The goals have

12:23shifted. David Road has asked you to sec David Road has been chronicling since day one how the checklist had we've achieved none of it. None of the goals and they changed by the day it seemed has actually been accomplished by the administration, which is partially why a it hasn't gone well because there hasn't been a real clear sense of direct information. But b why the American people don't like it. The poll and poll suggests it has been unpopular since the beginning and continues to grow more so because voters across this country and it seems like those in red and blue states simply don't know why we're doing this. And they're only seeing bad consequences rising prices, a more hardline regime in Iran, rather than anything good coming out of it, David. And it also points to right now real spotlight on the Pentagon, like this comes this week as the Army Secretary Driscoll resides. And while doing so says to the president, he's concerned about the readiness in the military. We have seen general after general either being fired or passed over

13:24for deserving promotions. We have seen Hegseth consolidating power. We've seen a lack of munitions. You know, and that's the part of this is as much as I think Trump politically doesn't want to escalate hostilities. He kind of can't, even if he wanted to, because we may not be able to defend our allies and assets assets in the region from the inevitable Iran counter attack. We that's the problem is that they're able to attack all these allies of ours across the region. And the broader theme here and, you know, advances the front runner for the next presidential race is to essentially try to lie your way out of the problem. I mean, he did that repeatedly. I was surprised on many different levels. One other fact check was he sort of said, well, in last night, we, you know, 15 million barrels of oils, you know, were coming out of the strait. And it sounded like that was happening every day. The estimate before the war was 20 million barrels a day, 15 was a high. And the average, you know, in the last few weeks has been according to companies attract this has been about 8 million barrels of oil. So there was just tons of false statements yesterday from the vice president. And that's what was so surprising. And again, the most basic one is it's all the

14:28Iranians fall that keep shooting at these ships. We chose Donald Trump chose and Donald Trump ignored JD Vance's advice. That's the other part of this is defend the president. Don't defend the president, you know, and also don't attack feet, heads, that's apparently. But the president chose to kill the Iranian leadership, launch a war alongside Israel. And that's why Iran has seized control of the straight hormones. And JD Vance joined the president of the United States yesterday, that briefing and saying, no, we control the straight of hormones, something that's objectively untrue. MS now senior national security reporter David Road, David thanks is always still ahead on morning Joe president Trump again is asking the Supreme Court to allow his restrictions on voting by mail, what the latest in that legal effort ahead of the midterms plus the administration is moving forward with plans for that 250 foot triumphal arc as they're calling it there in Washington. That's despite a federal lawsuit. They are ready to break ground on this thing. What we're learning about the construction. And as we go to break a look at the travelers forecast

15:31this morning and for the Labor Day weekend from Acuethers, Bernie Rayno, Bernie, how's it looking out there? Willie, one more steamy day before relief from the heat and humidity arrives this weekend some grinching heavy thunderstorms, Washington DC Richmond into the Carolinas, spotty shower, a thunderstorm filled up, New York City fog will give way to sunshine in Boston, hot in Chicago with a spotty thunderstorm as well. Southeast not much change, drenching thunderstorms across Florida this afternoon, just spotty thunderstorms in East Texas, not many delays to talk about Boston this morning, fill it out for you Miami this afternoon. To help you make the best decisions and be more in the know, download Acuethers App today.

16:34Ever since I was young I've watched people working hard chasing opportunity making sacrifices, doing everything they can to build a better life. And now we're shining a light on what matters most. Our economy, our national identity, our democracy, our future. The stakes have never been higher. It's all on the line. On the line with Ombicia Menendez weekdays at 12 p.m. Eastern on MS now. Beautiful live picture of Washington at 620 on this Friday morning of Labor Day weekend, construction on President Trump's controversial triumphant arch in Washington is set to begin within days in Terry secretary Doug Berger made the announcement yesterday on social media,

17:35writing preparations are currently underway to begin excavation work over the next two weeks. President Trump first unveiled plans last October to build the 250 foot arch near Arlington National Cemetery and the Lincoln Memorial saying it would be taller than the arc to triumphant Paris administration has said the monument is intended to commemorate the nation's 250th anniversary. Projects facing a federal lawsuit though brought by three veterans and an architectural historian. They argue the administration lacks the required congressional authorization. The project was never approved by the capital planning commission. The Justice Department is seeking to have the case dismissed. So Jonathan Lamir this is kind of a whiff of the ballroom which is just keep going try to outrun the courts break ground start building and by the time they catch up to you it's halfway done and there's no turning back but this is kind of the arch that no one asked for except for President Trump. How do you suspect this is going to end and how's it going over in Washington?

18:37I mean this arch is an obscenity that's a sacred place between Lincoln Memorial and Arlington National Cemetery. The monument to President Lincoln and then across the river you know where he's almost in conversation with some of the soldiers there who served him in his candid chief and then subsequent commanders in chief. This is that is one of the cemetery will as you will know is arguably the most hollow ground in these United States and this arch will completely obscure views of it. It's not just taller than the arc to triumphant it will be twice the size of the arc to triumphant. It is an arch that no one wants except for President Trump. It is something it is legally dubious whether he even has the authority to build this thing. I would argue it's far worse than the ballroom. The ballroom is really bad that's the people's house and he has raised it down and I think you're right the strategy here is just build it and then claim it's too far along to stop but Jeff Mason there I think this is something people are very angry about the White House people will be very

19:38angry about this. I think people are missing the first of all the the arch there will completely change the look of Washington. It will be one of the tallest structures in a low rise city. It will change the view of the mall. It will change the view of these important sacred places and I would suspect that a lot of Democratic presidential candidates will say yeah when I take the oath of office on January 20th, 2029 where I to win one of the sounds you hear in the background or the jack cameras knocking that thing down. I'll be real curious to see how Democratic candidates respond to that because surely they'll be asked what do you do about all the things that the president has changed. One of the reasons I think the strategy that the president has employed has been just go forward with the ballroom with the arch with the Kennedy Center is he hasn't faced challenges and in many ways construction is different from domestic policy or foreign policy that a new administration can come in and just chart their own course and do their own thing. When he's building something like this ballroom it's pretty hard unless you know a candidate comes

20:40and really wants to tear it down with a grain and with a wrecking ball it's hard to undo. So that has I mean in some ways that was part of I think the administration's argument when I went to the Supreme Court about the ballroom is we've already got 65% of it built. You can't tell us to turn around and now they're going to do the same thing with the arch they're not waiting for congressional approval they're just going to go ahead and start. Sam Stein just to give people some perspective the Lincoln Memorial is about a hundred feet tall. We're talking 250 feet tall for this arch to Triumph or whatever they're calling it here in Washington but again it raises the question I guess it's now a rhetorical one or a fuel question where is Congress in this where is Congress when we start wars where is Congress when tariffs are levy where is Congress when President Trump unilaterally decides to kind of deface the nation's capital. And it's not a rhetorical question it's also a legal one because with the Supreme Court case in the ballroom one of the reasons the Supreme Court basically said yeah you can go on and continue

21:44to the construction of the ballroom is that the people who were suing for its stoppage they didn't have standing they didn't produce evidence they had suffered material harm from it but Congress could have because Congress is the one by law that has to authorize the construction of the ballroom and in this case I imagine that would be the same with the arch you know look is Jonathan right yes it is grotesque it's imperial it is a manifestation of ego all the above I would maybe dispute whether it's worse than bulldozing the east wing but it's close you know it's it's right up there um doesn't matter materially to voters and I actually think it does not because voters are going to look at this and say oh my god what's he doing this is so ridiculous he's ruining the DC skyline it's a hollow ground he's he's messing up but because precisely the the contrast that exists where their lives are are not getting better they're paying more for gas they are suffering

22:45they want affordability to be tackled and he seems utterly distracted by all these vanity projects and there was a story and it might have been in the Atlantic and Jonathan would know this better but dangerous school who was resigning his army secretary apparently went into the oval office to talk about all the things that he was witnessing at the pentagon and the problems that he was seeing there in the low morale and and and all the issues arising from pete hexat fire and all these people and he got in there he started talking to Trump apparently Trump ball just want just want to focus on the ballroom and if you see that the president is distracted by renovation projects while you are struggling to make ends meet that's the political problem not not so much the building or the demolition it's the contrast no I think that's right I mean obviously these these projects in the ballroom the arch are things that are offensive to many people and indeed the competition with secretary of school and others there have been other reports of meetings with president trump about certain policy topics and he keeps diverting the tension back to whatever his latest construction

23:50problem is our friend Maggie Haberman was with us the other day and said that you know she's been told by people around him that path or more of his conversation seemingly his mental energy right now is based is focused on these on these projects and and the Sam's point that to the voters indicates that he's distracted that he does not have their priorities in mind and remember he was elected over anything else to bring the costs down to bring prices down and voters can see that's not happening and it seems like it's one thing to try and fail Trump was trying and failing to bring these policies down to them it seems like he's not even trying he doesn't even care because this is the easy stuff to sit at your desk and order sick offense to build things in your honor ending wars and bringing prices down that's the hard part about being a president the Trump administration meanwhile is again asking the Supreme Court to allow new restrictions on mail-in voting a move that potentially could affect millions of voters in the upcoming November midterms the emergency appeal filed yesterday comes after a federal judge in Boston recently blocked

24:54parts of the president's executive order from going into effect the Supreme Court will remember previously allowed the president's plan to move ahead but has not decided whether it was legal it was a question of standing in that case the Trump administration is urging the high court to intervene now due to the fast approaching midterms under the controversial order Trump signed in March the U.S. Postal Service would set standards for ballot mail envelopes and states must submit lists of verified voters the postal service then can refuse to deliver ballots that do not meet the new rules or bear the name of a voter who is not on one of their lists again Sam just to bottom line this this administration comes up with a list of voters who they believe should be allowed to vote they use the U.S. Postal Service stack with a board of governors that's their appointees many of them election deniers and prohibit certain people based on their standards from voting in an American election it's it's crazy I mean it's crazy that we would turn over

25:58this much election infrastructure to the postmaster general I mean what are we talking about is this it's blatantly seems to me blatantly unconstitutional but beyond that operationally it's insane and there's a recent whistleblower report that was uncovered by Democrats in Congress that said it gets even worse than that they're doing these batch of mail-in ballots and something like if there's you know 10,000 ballots a batch and if one of them is erroneous or filled out wrong or the barcourt code doesn't quite scan because I don't know the ink was blotted then all 10,000 of those ballots would be invalidated in that batch this is chaos waiting to happen but that's the point right Trump has this entire vendetta against mail-in voting he doesn't want people to trust the elections he doesn't want people to vote in the election and so what do you do you create chaos you create confusion you throw up roadblocks and then when things don't go particularly well you say

26:58well I tried to bring order but you know Supreme Court didn't uphold this directive I had for the postmaster general or Congress didn't pass the save act to ensure that only U.S. citizens are voting and then you say that's why I lost and maybe we shouldn't see these people because we can't trust this election look the court the Supreme Court didn't did indeed allow this to go forward on standing grounds because the rules had not been implemented and they said someone no one had been actually harmed the rules are now posted I'll be eager to see what the court does here this is a real tinder box and if they were to allow this go forward it could have incredible ramifications on our elections and our trust in democracy I mean Jeff I think everything Sam just said there was right and I'll note he did so with a snazzy new beard Jeff I mean this is you know this is the point here the point is to disenfranchise voters it's just so distrust and it is as Sam said that he can even claim these results are invalid if they don't go the way he wants and certainly

28:02Republicans right now feel like well they're in some trouble this fall the House you know seems lost privately GOP if AIDS and officials will admit that and the Senate is a true toss up so this is the point it's a continuation of the of the big lie it's a continuation of what Trump did in 2020 when he claims that elections can't be trusted there he's saying well they're stolen from me I won he didn't and here they're preemptively trying to get American voters to feel like well we can't believe in the process so maybe I shouldn't vote at all or I shouldn't trust who wins you know there's a through line that goes even further back the president raised concerns or false concerns about whether Barack Obama was a legitimate president it's a it's a constant theme for him he throws out questions about the legitimacy of elections and and now that he has the power that he does is as Sam said is trying to create chaos with some of these policies I would also add with regard to the executive order and the USPS it's September the and the Supreme

29:03Court hasn't give hasn't weighed in on the legality of this mean talk about chaos there's just not time to implement what would be a massive new electoral system really with by by handing that kind of power over to the US Postal Service and that is also clearly part of the strategy just throw it out there now create this confusion and by the way there are some states including my home state of Colorado that use mail in voting writ large for the whole state for the whole election so what does that mean for them and I think it also raises the question and I would we'd need a legal scholar to talk about this about constitutionality when it states that are supposed to run their own elections so how do you justify in any way handing over this kind of authority to a federal agency and willie we of course had the attorney general of Colorado on our air earlier this week who stressed yes as Jeff said that so many voters there use it but also stressed that for cycle after cycle it is safe and fraud free it is a reliable way to vote Colorado many other states too

30:06yeah we've seen that in study after study after study to Jeff's point about the urgency of this mail-in ballots went out in North Carolina yesterday the process has already begun White House porous bonnet for Bloomberg Jeff Mason Jeff thanks so much we always appreciate it coming up our next guest is profiling someone he calls a scheming con man who could always escape the consequences and help to shape the modern political era pull its surprise winning co-author of American scoundrel Roy Cohn's dark journey from Joe McCarthy to Donald Trump joins us straight ahead on morning Joe home to the Rachel Maddo show morning Joe the briefing with Jen Socky and more voices you know and trust MS now is your source for news opinion and the world learn more at ms.now

31:15I want to be prepared to the teeth if I have a witness on a stand for an adversary I want to know everything about that witness from the year one every application he filed for a driver's license to show inconsistencies to show tendencies which demonstrate lack of credibility I don't go for this theory that my magnetic personality or my puffness is going to win over a jury or a judge there isn't anything I would not do because I believe there's only one answer in an adversary profession like law and that is winning that is a clip from a 1979 interview with Roy Cohn described in a new book as a street fighter a self-promoting hustler and a scheming con man the new biography American scoundrel Roy Cohn's dark journey from Joe McCarthy to Donald Trump details the life of the notorious political fixer and attorney and sheds new light on a key figure who has been called the mastermind behind the current arc of American political life because

32:15that includes the rise of Donald Trump Cohn's impact still being felt today joining us now the author of American scoundrel Pulitzer Prize winning historian biographer Kai Bird Kai I'm so glad to have you on the show this morning boy when you read through your book and you look at the way Roy Cohn did business we see it playing out every day including this morning and many of the stories we're talking about under the Trump administration so Roy Cohn's life obviously we know about the red scare the lavender scare he was kind of at the center of all these moments in American history but he meets Donald Trump in 1973 what did he see in a young Donald Trump that made him think he could shake this person well that's a good question they met in October of 73 at LeClub a private dining establishment here in midtown Manhattan and uh Trump went over the young 27-year-old Trump went over to Roy Cohn and introduced himself he recognized Roy as the mob lawyer and uh Trump was involved in in a lawsuit at that point

33:23he was being sued by the feds for racial discrimination in the Trump organization's apartments and queens and Roy told them uh well you know you should fight it you should sue the feds sue them for a hundred million dollars defamation and of course Trump loved that that advice and they bonded and he you know Roy Roy saw in Trump ambition he saw the same sort of narcissistic ruthlessness that he's he shared himself and um he became his lawyer for the next 13 years and shaped his you know helped him to get his tax abatements for Trump tower but also you know uh at one point he he was the guy who went to his old friend and classmate from Horace Mann's side new house and he persuaded side to uh get a book contract side owned random house at that point and so he

34:23said you know you should give a book contract to Donald Trump to write a memoir uh and this of course became the art of the deal and the art of the deal launched Trump's career uh he made him into a national figure and then that led to the apprentice and then that led to his political career so it's an extraordinary story and Roy Cohn of course even prior to linking up with Trump wielded remarkable influence whether it was and was close to Joe McCarthy Richard Nixon the Reagan's as you chronicle here in the book but it does seem for a man who died in 1986 that his that his legacy is is is only growing as we see he was sort of the master of sort of the dark arts the politics of division and he's taught those lessons that Trump seems to have learned really really well yeah extremely well uh Roy was a fixer and you know he loved he he was a transactional dealmaker he loved doing favors for people he would host his own birthday party every year at studio 54 or the New

35:26York armory and he would invite two or three hundred of of New York's richest most influential judges and politicians and journalists and and they all knew who Roy Cohn was and what he had done but Roy would have Joey Adams the comedian come and emcee the these events and uh Joey would quip if you're indicted you're invited so it was brazen everybody knew that indeed Roy had been indicted three times in the 1960s by Robert Morgan Thou the DA here in New York and three times he New York juries had had acquitted for bribery and corruption and fraud and the evidence was pretty overwhelming that he had committed these acts hey guys Sam Stein here I don't know if you're a psychologist you are a biographer but I'm curious um the degree to which Roy Cohn's personal life

36:30um obviously Jonathan reference that he died young he died young from age related uh disease age of 59 and um fairly well established that he he was gay and and obviously closet and denied it vehemently until basically he died uh I'm wondering the degree to which his uh discomfort with his own identities inability to be just be out there and open gay uh fed what you describe as scoundrel behavior well yes and no I mean yes he was a closeted gay man all his life but he became a a national figure at the age of 27 uh a powerful lawyer uh he his image was on the cover of time magazine when he was 27 as senator Joe McCarthy's chief counsel during the army McCarthy hearings and in the 1950s no closeted gay man who was a public figure felt that he could come out and talk about his sexuality in that way um and so Roy was a product of that and you could say that maybe

37:35this drove some of his nastiness uh that he had to suffer being in the closet like that but on the other hand you know there were plenty of powerful closeted gay men in the 1950s who did not become Roy Cone so I think it's uh you can't uh you can't attribute this too too much to his uh closeted gay life he taught Roy Cone Donald Trump the playbook never settled never surrender counter attack and countersuit immediately and we could add never apologize and boy do we see that playing out every single day in the White House the new book is American scoundrel Roy Cone's dark june journey from Joe McCarthy to Donald Trump it's available now author and Pulitzer Prize winning historian Kyberd hi thanks so much for being with us this morning we appreciate it thank you Willie still ahead two states of Supreme Courts hand Democrats a win

38:36in redistricting fights we'll run through those decisions one out of Missouri the other in Maryland plus we'll take a look at new reporting from the Wall Street Journal on Democratic Senator John Federman apparently dodging constituents alienating fellow Democrats and showing frankly little interest in his job on Capitol Hill that story straight ahead on Morning Joe well longtime Fox business host Maria Bartoromo has left the network Fox News media made the announcement yesterday writing we thank Maria for her work over the last 12 and a half years and wish her all the best on her next chapter Maria was the host of three programs which now will be renamed and passed on to a rotating group of anchors although the network did not provide a reason for her departure the news and media site status is reporting Bartoromo was fired for allegedly sharing with the Trump administration instruction she had received from the network's bosses to not cover

39:42the president's false claims of China election interference in its social media post president Trump wrote Bartoromo was a total professional and a true warrior saying her fans of which there are many will not be happy yesterday vice president vans laughed off speculation that Maria Bartoromo could be the next white house press secretary at the core of this John I'm thinking about your book the big lie is the fact that Maria Bartoromo was kind of the face from the fox side of it of the dominion lawsuit that cost Fox $787 million spouting openly on the air conspiracy theories about a stolen election in 2020 saying there are intel sources telling her it had been stolen it would be reversed we saw in discovery and private messages her refusing to call Joe Biden the president elect because she believed it had been stolen this was someone for many years going back to CNBC was a well liked and trusted financial reporter came over to Fox and then in the Trump years became sort of drenched in all the conspiracy theories that cost Fox a lot of money

40:44and ultimately cost her her job yeah an extraordinary change for her in her career and you're right here that this is even you know look Fox is very Trump friendly most of the time but this shows the the price of that lawsuit the dominion lawsuit and not just the $787 million they had to pay out then but also fear that they might have to again and that they are a little more careful certainly about some of these unfounded conspiracy theories which we know Trump spouts consistently it's also striking again just how Trump has hijacked so much of the conservative media atmosphere where you know Maria Bartolome her instinct here when she gets this directive from her bosses is not is to go to Trump to like provide the administration with you know obviously sort of confidential private corporate communications to say hey I can't talk about this stuff anymore because my bosses are saying no really remarkable all around she's been off the air will actually

41:44since early august you know Fox put out this news yesterday and yes I think a lot of people when the state press release came out that she was done wondered if her next job would be in the Trump administration vans denied it I have heard also there's no plans for that but of course president Trump is a real fan so maybe that wasn't in the works but maybe now that she is available that could change we'll have to see yeah I wouldn't put it past and we'll see coming up next we'll explain why former NFL players make it the chance to suit up again in college football they were on NFL rosters they might play in college games next weekend Pablo Torre will be here to explain a big ruling last night from a judge in Louisiana morning Joe's back in a moment for me being a part of this place has always been about the people not about the politics

42:44from the field to the studio Jacob is finding the heart of the story connect with Jacob sober off weekends at 10 a.m. Eastern on MS now