FBI Expert and Tony Brueski Read Jim Bob's Letter to Joseph Live

This is Hidden Killers Live with Tony Brusky and Robin Dree.

More Duggers today, everyone.

And we're going to go through all different facets of the Duggers story where it's at.

The communication specifically is what we're going to be examining.

A letter from Jim Bob, Joseph, which believe it or not, seems to be the most grounded

insane communication of all of the communications we're about to go through today.

And also, as you probably have heard, some of the phone calls between Kendra and Joseph

Dugger.

We're going to be playing some of them.

And we're going to be breaking them down.

Robin Drake, retired FBI Special Agency for the Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis

Program.

Of course, our co-hosts always with us.

We're going to be going through all of this.

My goodness, Robin, there's a lot to get through here today.

I read the Jim Bob letter.

I've listened to a lot of portions of the calls I haven't gone through them completely

because I wanted to have a bit of an element of surprise as we go through it today.

But I listen to him twice.

And there's more.

They keep coming.

There's more and more, I mean, delusional.

I mean, seems to be the word.

I don't know.

Before we jump in, we're going to start with the letter here.

But when you, over the weekend, had a chance to kind of take some of it in, how would

you describe what this is all about?

Boy, Tony, this has been a really challenging one because this isn't, hasn't been like

an interesting word, delusional.

But when you have a collective delusion, is it delusional or is it just a collective insanity?

Yeah.

Because it really is, you know, like Lori Debel Valo.

Now that's delusional nutter, right?

And same cult like mentality.

They had their own little version of their own religion going on.

But the duggers are something wholly different because yes, it's, it's, it's fits the definition

of cult-ish because there's elements that don't quite make it, but it's this collective

delusion.

And I'll tell you, we were talking about this on the pre show a few minutes ago.

I'm really struck by how common this is to him, how non-surprising these things are

that keep popping up.

And as people have followed us for a while, no such a lover of history.

And I was like, where am I recognizing this from?

Because I've seen this before in history.

And you know what?

You got to go back to what years was it, like 800 to 400 BCE, ancient Greeks.

They had a culture.

They had this, this ideology that, you know, we called it mentorship, but what they did

to young boys really screams, very similar, horrendous things that they did doing really

bad things to boys, and they called it mentorship.

And yeah, it was a collective societal norm.

It was gross.

It was horrendous.

And that's what I'm seeing with the duggers and just the IBLP.

It is just this collective normalcy of stupid, it's disgusting.

Yeah, I mean, if you make that you're normal and you give it a word that otherwise means

something good, but there's something negative truly behind it.

But nobody's thinking that when you're saying it aloud until you look at what they're actually

defining that as, you're like, wait a second here, this isn't mentorship.

But it's amazing what you can convince the collective, the definition of a word is,

even if that's not the true definition of it.

Yeah, because what was, you know, and so here's the, you know, so that's what the ancient

Greeks did for this normal, normalization of crazy, right?

And here's what the duggers are doing.

They're not saying, hey, doing abusing children is right.

What they're doing is what's more right is forgiveness.

Yeah.

They have, I did a lot of, I did a lot of deeper research on trying to understand their

hierarchy of sins and what they phrase their sins as, and that's what really struck me.

So to understand how it is, they're able to keep perpetuating this and not seemingly

having this moral outrage at the rest of us having, because I wrote so a few of these

things down.

So, thing, so the number one sin you can do, they kind of have two categories as I've

broken down.

Again, I'm paraphrasing from my limit experience, so I'm sure there's better experts

on this.

But the number one sin is rebellion against authority.

That is the number one sin.

That is the whole umbrella you put up for this.

That is the number one sin is rebellion against authority.

The meek voice you hear, the women go through a news that's been trained into them because

that's what you're supposed to do.

You're supposed to be always happy, happy, happy, happy, no matter what, happy voice, right?

That's part of it.

The number two sin is sexual sins by, by people in authority.

So what they don't call it sexual sins, they call it moral failings.

And so any time you have a group that rationalizes behavior by reframing words so they have a

lesser impact, that's a problem.

So they call moral failings, but I really think it's, I don't want to say, because it's

put words into another's mouths, that they do these things intentionally, but what they

really, really, really covet is forgiveness.

Because when you forgive someone, they're restored.

And so the whole premise of this entire cult is restoration, restoration by vocalizing

your moral shortcomings and as soon as you vocalize them, you have to forgive because

forgiveness is a whole point of their whole nutter organization.

So that's how this thing keeps perpetuating.

They lessen the impact by choosing softer words like moral failings instead of sexual

abuse or S abuse, you know, because we're on YouTube.

And restoration is what they are looking for.

We want to be restored.

So that's kind of as I understood it.

So what I'm listening to these tapes, what I'm listening to these transcripts, I'm keeping

that in mind.

And they are spot on with that belief system when they're doing it.

It's so disturbing.

I mean, it's not the blocks down and picking back up and then they made their own world.

Yeah.

You're the hero for doing it.

And if you're going to criticize someone for picking up the blocks after they knock

them all down, then you're the wrong one.

Great analogy.

It frame it in certain ways and, yeah, I mean, it's how they survive and it's how people

within those circles don't, when the ones that do get out, get out, they're out.

You can't be half in with this group or any sort of group that thinks this sort of

way.

It makes it impossible to be like, oh, yeah, we see them on the holidays.

They're so fundamentally different than the rest of society that either you're all in

or you're not, because you can't be kind of half in, because if you're just half

in, you're like, what the hell is going on over here?

Either have to drink all the Kool-Aid or not at all.

We're going to start with one of the letters.

This is the letter that Jim Bob has written to Joseph in jail.

He is out now, by the way.

Here's Jim Bob's initial response to what is the shortcomings, the moral failings of

his son.

Do we have, I want to get some appropriate music here.

Here we go.

He was harsh, listening.

Joseph, I'm sorry for what you're going through.

Mom and I love you very much.

Looks like you have a long road ahead of you, but God will get you through.

You've made some terrible decisions, but God has already forgiven you if you have asked

him.

This is the first thing we're seeing of any of the doggers holding anybody somewhat accountable

of saying, you made a bad choice.

Kendra is doing well overall.

That's his wife.

She is trusting in the Lord.

She loves you very much.

Your kids are going to be okay.

Let's talk to them when they're 30.

Our family has built together to help.

Several of the sisters and sisters in law have taken Kendra out and spent a lot of time

with her.

It is ridiculous that they charge Kendra and arrested her.

We have hired an attorney to help Kendra.

We are praying that we get her charges dropped.

You will be so proud of your brothers and grateful for them, for how they've all stepped

up and are helping with the details of your business and helping Kendra, meaning he

had an Airbnb property or two.

You are going to have to accept the situation at this point, and it's also fine to pray

that God would have mercy on you, but you're probably going to face a major consequence

for several years to come.

I pray that God will bring other Christians into your life to encourage you, and that

you can also point people to Christ even through the time you're in jail.

God will be with you.

He will get you and your family through.

David and the Bible royally messed up, but he repented and became a man after God's

own heart.

You also like Joseph, who was in prison, can make lemonade out of lemons.

I love you, and we'll keep praying for you.

Don't give up.

God is not finished with your life.

Love you, dad.

Trust in the Lord.

Lean down on your own understanding.

That's our dad's dealin' with...

Yeah, there's a lot there.

Oh, God.

Yeah.

So, the...

I mean, what part do you want to go through first?

So...

I don't even know.

So, one of the things that really struck me with both the letter and then all the jailhouse

calls between Joseph and Kendra was the family.

The family, the family, the family.

We know the family's big part of this, and so remember, you can't rebel against authority.

Family is authority.

And so, what they did is they swooped in to control the narrative.

So, that's the first thing they're doing.

The family is controlling the narrative.

You're not going to go against the narrative.

And so, they swooped in to young Kendra who is completely overwhelmed and I know we'll

get this later on on other segments, but her incongruence between her words and her

body falling apart because of the stress is quite remarkable and incredibly sad to

listen to as she's getting no sympathy whatsoever every time someone brings a problem.

Oh, just keep praying, man.

Just read this.

I found really striking.

And you've got to keep listening to all these things and reading to kind of see some

chinks in this armor.

And this was really interesting to me.

The other thing that struck me, Tony, during this entire thing was I had a presumption

that because this is such a religious Christian right wing cult or cult like mentality that

if they all accept all, exceptionally well versed in the Bible, but what I really found

interesting, they're well versed selectively in the Bible.

They have their own confirmation bias according to what they want to suck out, use for their

own benefit and manipulate because what's happened is, again, for my conjecture, for my observations

and analysis is that, remember, who's the nutter that created this IBLP?

Bill gothard.

He created his own version of all this in his booklets and pamphlets in the homeschooling

program.

So they selectively have taken passages out of the Bible without studying the Bible because

Kendra seemed amazed at all these things that Joseph is telling her to read, she doesn't

do it.

She's a hard time doing it.

He's Joseph behind bars.

Oh, it's the first time I've read Psalms.

Oh, Psalms is pretty good.

Oh, this version of Bible is like everyone seemed pretty, I was shocked that they're lack

of education in an area, I thought they're going to be really well versed in.

They're well versed in the doctrine that they were indoctrinated into, not what they are

claiming as their source material.

So their source material and the doctrine are way off.

So you know what really reminded me of, I remember after 9-11 in New York when I'm working

and I'm working with Middle Eastern countries and Middle Eastern recruitments and everything

like this.

And I remember one of my people that I had recruited and became a great source of intelligence

for us and he's from Middle Eastern country and I remember asking him, you know, what's

the biggest problem that's creating fundamentalists that are very anti-world, anti-West and

he goes, so that's easy.

He goes, he said, money is one thing because if they have the fear of they're going to lose

something, then you want to hold on to what you have fear, remember fear is the greatest

motivator.

So losing something is part of it, so they have to have some way to provide income.

But also education, I said, what do you mean by education?

I've heard this a lot.

He goes, when you can't read the Quran for yourself and you're relying on the mullahs

to teach you and tell you what's in that document, you're now only going to be resonating

with what you were taught by a mullah which not necessarily in the Quran.

And what do we have here?

Exactly the same thing.

You were taught something by the founder of IBLP and it's not actually what's in, so

then I read it for themselves, they're actually reading the crap that were spewed out in

the homeschooling, in all their pamphlets of learning and all their clubs that they

send you, their work camps during the summer to rehabilitate you from doing your S crimes

against other children.

So they created their own whole universe that is separate because I want to make sure

that what we're saying, we're not, this is not a religious bashing, this is like they

created their own religion completely.

This is a come to Jesus for those who are in the, literally, literally, literally,

literally.

That's what brainwashing is.

Or as they're going to look at us as the enemy, what I'm finding interesting here and

I'm seeing some of the dynamic at play and I'm investigating this off the air and there'll

be some pieces about it soon.

It's the dynamics about the Duggers and Kendra because Kendra, I mean, she was brought

up in a very religious family, it was an IBLP, it was another, it was a Baptist one, it wasn't

quite IBLP but pretty extreme.

Their family had a fallout with the Duggers, Jim Bob allegedly and her dad had allegedly

this fallout several years ago.

Around 2020, we're interesting timing, around the time of a certain family vacation, we're

a certain thing allegedly having, very interesting, very interesting.

Now we can't confirm anything but it's very interesting.

What I'm interested in watching here right now and I think everybody should be paying

really close attention to is the wagons being circled around Kendra because Kendra is

a, I would say a loose end for them because Kendra, Kendra could very quickly go, you know

what?

I'm out.

Because the way it looks right now and again, I could be very off on this but from what

I've read on the internet and I'm not saying that just like some random stuff, I mean,

a lot of, it's a lot of information that's out there on this.

It looks like there's a level of a strangement that is going on between Kendra and her

own family.

Whether I don't know exactly if that's with them and their daughter or if it's more

so the doggers is a hole and it's just kind of rough patches between, but there's some

roughness.

I would venture to say in my opinion, if I were to look at these two families, Kendra's

family, not such big fans of the doggers.

I think they might see them for what they are in my opinion.

And the way that the doggers are circling the wagons around Kendra, we're going to

provide you with an attorney, we're going to take care of your children, we're going

to take care of all of your earthly needs.

So basically you can't get rid of us because we are engrossing ourselves into every, we're

tentically ourselves into every little aspect of your life to prevent you from breaking

out of this.

She's out staying with one of the brothers right now and stupid enough to say it on a recording.

So she is being, I mean, and look, families, you know, this is nothing crazy.

Families do circle their wagons and they go and they support each other.

But there's, there's what I would say would be like noble for the right reason, moral

ethical support.

And then there's, let's make sure she doesn't say anything too nasty or too much of the

truth doesn't come out.

Because Kendra I think could probably spill quite a bit of shit that we don't know about

yet that nobody knows about yet that she's been dealing with that maybe if somebody put

a little spotlight on it and go, oh, see, you know, it's like with the doggers.

Folks like this, you know, you take the black light and go, oh, holy shit, look how dirty

this room is.

But they don't see it that way until they get the black light shown on it.

And I think there's a lot there to be seen, which they should instantly do around that

home, Tony Town Police Department, as suggested by Jennifer Koffendaffer, go take the black

light.

Let's go look around the dugger house.

Let's look in those kids bedrooms and see what sort of fluids we find because that

may answer a lot of questions.

They're very much trying to entrench her.

It feels like in my opinion to keep her as part of the fold because I think her as a loose

cannon could be even more devastating than their own children leaving because she has a

whole other family behind her that I'm sure would would love to be behind her and have

her seeing reality on reality's terms because she is not right now and we'll get into

that in a minute with the phone calls.

Yeah.

And one of the viewers Mark Fry put in, you know, the word threatens, I don't think the

word threatened.

I don't think there's a lot of threatening going on, but remember, this cult is all about

authority.

Courage of control.

Right.

And it's going against authority.

So this Tony, this makes total sense what you're seeing again, conjecture from what we're

seeing on the on the Google machine, right, about there being a rift in families.

I know if one of my children was having their spouse or significant other accused of this,

we'd be leaving Nutterville in five seconds saying we'd, you know, and we'd be having

some very, very pragmatic objective conversations about next steps in life, about working this

problem and about resolving this and breaking away from the nutters.

And so what's happening is if that's, if that's any semblance of truism, which if it's

a healthy, normal family, it is, she's, Kendra's already been indoctrinated to a large degree.

You can tell by she's taken on the voice, like in the movie, do the voice, right?

She's got the voice going, which means she's been indoctrinated and just listening to the

phone calls and everything.

And then what's happened is remember, they are circling the wagist control.

So this family is love bombing and valedine bombing her saying, Hey, we got this.

Just sit back.

We got this.

Keep your voice going.

You will be rewarded.

God is testing.

We love a test.

This is what life is about.

Life is about a struggle.

Life is about testing.

And so the fact that you're taking on this means that you're a righteous person.

We will be rewarded.

Oh my God.

And so she has on one side a family that is love bombing, circling the wagons around

her, protecting her from their point of view, but really controlling her narrative because

you cannot speak out against the authority.

Remember those umbrellas you can't step out of the umbrella.

They don't have to say it.

They're implying what happens if you step out from that umbrella because we've seen

I think some pretty granular interactions they've had when cameras haven't been on

or they don't think they've been on and it's everything's very congruent.

That's what's really striking about this.

I don't think there's an act going on.

They all believe it's crazy.

Yes.

And they're living this crazy.

And so they are just doing what they normally do when something goes awry.

Let's see if this is interesting.

I don't think they see this as going awry.

They say, ah, thank goodness we're being tested again.

This is where it's supposed to be.

In other words, I don't think they really have like the two boys, Joseph and Josh.

Were they really, were they really taught to not do this?

I know they weren't encouraged to do these things.

I mean, that's in congruent.

I don't believe it.

They're parents.

I don't believe Jim Bob or Michelle are trying to encourage these kids to do these things.

No.

But there was there really an incentive to not.

If all you had to do to be forgiven of this moral sin was to ask forgiveness.

And now it's everyone's responsibility to give restoration.

Because restoration overcomes any sin.

You see how this cyclical thing works?

So where's the motivation to not do something abhorrent?

But it's not abhorrent to them.

It's just a moral failure.

When you can just write everything off as a moral failure and immediately forgiven,

I mean, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

it's a common consequence.

Yeah.

You don't sit with the consequence.

You don't sit with the guilt.

You don't sit with the shame.

And I guess that's, that was one of the most striking things to me about, about these

phone calls that we're about to take a listen to.

It's absent of guilt or shame, absent, complete.

And I, and I get you can only say certain things out of jailhouse phone call.

But this is, this is just completely absent.

I've heard plenty of jailhouse phone calls where the person's guilty is shit.

And they are, they're shame.

This is just like, he's like ready to order a, you know, a, an RV's, you know, roast beef

sandwich.

I know.

And there's just nothing to it.

Your thoughts in the comments section on, on this part on Jim Bob's letter and everything

can give it to us on Substack and YouTube.

The links are, are right there in the description.