Finding Light in Chaotic Times: A Conversation with Dr. Judi Neal

Hey, everyone. Amy here. Today's episode is a really special conversation with my mentor, Dr. Judy Neal founder of edge walkers international and a pioneer in spirituality in the workplace.

Judy is the author of several influential books, including edge walkers, people and organizations that take risks, build bridges and break new ground.

And she has spent decades researching how leaders bridge the spiritual and practical worlds of business.

In this conversation, we explore intuition, synchronicity, symbolic imagery.

And we also explore why the guidance we receive feels sometimes surprisingly sometimes magically aligned with exactly what we need.

We also share the story behind the creation of the newly formed edge walker card deck and how leaders, coaches, facilitators, people are using it as a tool for reflection and site and for navigating uncertain times.

At the end of this episode, Judy pulls a card as a message for all of us and it's super inspiring. So please stay with us till the end so you can get those chills with us.

If you're feeling a little overwhelmed, if you're feeling like you're living in a bit of chaos, or if you're just looking for a light and a spark and some magic in your day, I think you're really going to enjoy this magical conversation.

Hey, it's Amy. Welcome to Create Magic at Work, where we cast visions for a future of work where business decisions ripple outward to our teams, our communities, the planet and humanity as a whole.

If you're ready to edge walk instead of sleepwalk through your leadership, you're in the right place. So let's start making magic at work.

Hey, everyone, welcome to a special edition episode of Create Magic at Work, because today I have one of my cherished mentors here, Dr. Judy Neil.

And we are super excited. This is long overdue, by the way, getting ahead of myself, but we are so excited because today we are going to share the edge walker hard deck with all of you.

Dr. Judy Neil is the creator of the edge walker's framework and the edge walker profile and the archetypes of change and these are tools instruments that we use here at create magic at work in our executive coaching firm.

So if you are a former client, you and you're listening, you're familiar with the five skills and the five qualities of an edge walker.

And if you're a long time listener, you are definitely familiar with edge walkers because we talk about it all the time, the bridge builders and the change makers of the world, who look to the future with hope

and creative positive visualization. So Judy and I were talking and we created this edge walker card deck.

And we haven't really exposed it to anybody. I did that just like the time has flown by so it is long overdue to have a conversation about this and what this means and the magic that it can bring to a lot of people and it already is.

So Judy, welcome to create magic at work and thanks for being here in this unveiling of the edge walker card deck for everyone.

This is such an exciting time, Amy, and more than anything, thank you because this wouldn't have manifested without you and you're just such a wonderful partner and play friend, you know, it's like we played to make this happen and playfulness is one of the edge walker qualities and that's what it really felt like as we co created this.

So thank you so much for being in this project with me.

Yeah, I mean, it's my pleasure. It was such a magical journey and just to give everybody listening some context around it, it started like over two years ago, I want to say, where I think we were in an edge walker cafe, which by the way, edge walker cafes are open to anyone to attend.

So check those out if you haven't been to one yet.

And I think I left a cafe or a facilitator meeting and I thought, oh my gosh, we need an edge walker card deck for inspiration and for magic and I kind of mentioned it to you and you said, oh, well, I've been thinking about that for a long time and I already have the affirmations authored for the five skills and the five qualities.

I was like, okay, so we sort of started this journey together of the creation process really any thoughts on that on how that came about.

Yeah, that was so wonderful and magical because it had been something I've been dreaming of since probably 2012 and I had designed the content, but I'm not artistic and I have no idea how to bring that.

So to bring that to life and we were talking about other decks that other edge walkers and part of the create magic at work community have created, but there was nothing like edge walkers.

And so when I mentioned it to you and you were talking about, well, you said, yeah, let, you know, we need a deck and I said, well, I've got the content and you said, let's do it.

I just jumped right in and we had a plan and we talked on a regular basis.

You drafted a couple of cards and I went, oh, my God, these are beautiful.

They have such an energy about them that made them feel really magical like they could make a difference to people.

The reason I first came up with the idea, I think about 2012 was I forget what I've created.

It's like I'm not a very good student of my own teachings and I need constant binders of how to use the edge walker qualities and skills.

And I thought, if I had a deck and I pulled a card each day, then it could remind me or if I say I wanted to take on the skill, I wanted to enhance the skill of focusing because that's a hard one for a lot of us, particularly in this tumultuous world.

If I wanted to do that, I could go through a deck and just find a focusing card and go, that's my affirmation for today and maybe for several days.

But it was like some an anchor to remind me of how I wanted to live as an edge walker and you helped me bring that into being and to manifesting it and I'm just so thrilled.

Yeah, it was, it was an honor to sort of bring it into our reality or help, you know, steward that along.

I think what's really cool about the experiences we started creating these, I swear, it's been over two years.

And when we first started creating them, they had a really educational feel to them and they didn't really have this magic in them and the technology.

They will come up with us. Yeah, the technology, I feel like caught up with us or we caught up, whatever it is, but we co-created the artwork in the in the card deck with AI.

And, you know, people comment to me, oh my gosh, I want your prompts.

How did you, what were the prompts that you put into AI to create the beautiful imagery in the cards?

And I'm like, I don't have them because I feel like I wanted it to almost be like the universe sort of channeling through what that, what that graphic should look like.

And the magic that came through from that in the graphics with the affirmations, I think is, is next level.

I was actually impressed with how that came about and I feel like it wasn't even you or I, it was, it was something greater than ourselves that sort of came through with that.

So really, really exciting and I'm actually in awe when people are using the deck.

Like you said, to hone in on a skill or a quality of an edge walker, the magic that comes through from that, the chills people get and all those things because there are so many card decks out right now.

And it's like, well, who needs another card deck is kind of, you know, what, what I hear some people might say, but I really truly feel like this one's different because it has all of these elements, like it's educational because it helps you deep dive into the five skills and the five qualities.

But then it's magical because it has that like divine sort of intention in it.

And then it's inspirational on top of it all. So I completely agree.

I couldn't have envisioned how these turned out. And in fact, just sharing when I was thinking of starting magic thread media, the podcast network.

I was like, what am I going, am I really doing this? This was right before right around October when it was being born.

And I said, okay, let me look to the edge walker deck. It's new. It's fresh. We had a prototype out.

And so I closed my eyes and I went through and I said, just just give me, you know, a symbol or a message and the passion card came up.

I can't remember exactly which affirmation it was, but immediately just the passion card came up and I was like, okay, like this is a clear direction that I need to follow my passion.

And then the affirmation on the other side sort of reaffirmed what was bubbling up within me to follow and create this podcast network that now is sitting with five shows on it so far on our way to 20 to 40.

So I digress, but that is one way I've used the deck. So I just, I do want to open up to you.

Why do you think, aside from the example I've given, what are some other examples why edge walkers or people in general need a tool like this and what are some other ways they can use something like this?

Well, I'd love to use the example of our friend Brian. I won't give his last name because I didn't ask permission to share.

And Brian is going through a challenging time where it's difficult to generate business and there's other family challenges that are going on for him.

And he keeps pulling playfulness cards, the edge walker quality playfulness and it's actually kind of challenging for him because he's going, you know, I'm fighting depression.

I'm having such a struggle. Playfulness is the hardest thing in the world for me.

And then he goes, but I think this is what I need more than anything else. And we talked about playfulness doesn't mean, oh, let's just be silly and happy.

It means holding things lightly and being creative and being open to synchronicities.

And it's so funny because he draws those playfulness cards much more frequently than probability would have.

We should say that there's five qualities. There's five skills and there's five cards for each quality and skill.

And so there's a one and 50 chance that you would pull something. One of the really creative things you did, Amy, was you added in some pictures that were the foundation of certain cards and those pictures were of people who are in our edge walker community.

And the car I pull once a week, I pull the card with my picture on it. And the pictures of me is the one where I'm playing guitar.

And usually I'll be asking a question about balance and how much time I should spend on work.

And I'm feeling like I don't have enough time for music. And I keep pulling the card with the guitar every week.

And it's like, again, watch more than you would predict through probability theory. It's like the message comes through.

You need to be bringing more creativity, more music, because music for me is very spiritual. So I need more of that spirituality at my life.

So a couple of things that I would recommend for people to do. I think that's what you're asking me is like, how can they be used?

And one is just to pull a card each day that gives you an affirmation for that day about what quality or skill you might want to really emphasize that day.

Another that a couple of us are doing is when we pull the daily card, we enter that into chat GPT and get into a little conversation about what am I up to today?

What's my intention for the day? What do I have to accomplish today? And then share what the card is and what the affirmation says.

And then chat GPT or plot or one of the AIs comes back and says, well, here's the pattern we see underneath that that would guide you for today.

And because these AIs get to know us, they can bring in something about for me, it'll bring in more of the edge walker model or what I'm doing with the edge walker business.

And so it gets personalized. I find that really stunning, the kinds of advice it gives me when I share here's a challenge I have today.

I'm going to be meeting with someone. I might be a little nervous about that. And it'll give me a way to hold that both in a practical manner and a spiritual manner, which edge walkers, that's the space we hold between what's practical and a higher spiritual guidance.

Another thing I've done occasionally and that I think is kind of fun is to just lay out three cards and say the first one describes the past.

Then and what's a foundation that I'm really building on. And so I can affirm this quality or skill that is really solid and I can build on that.

Then the present here's the present situation and what I should be doing right now and then one for the future. So that's kind of fun. And then, as I mentioned,

you know, it was like at the other day, I really was feeling unfocused. And so I went through the deck and I said, whatever the first focus card is that I call, I'm going to use that as a way of affirming what what I how I can be more focused.

And the magic that happens in that it's like the synchronicities. I know this has a lot to do with you and your magic Amy, but I think it's also you alluded to it. It's like you plus me plus this intention of making a difference and source God, the universe, whatever people want to call it has really played with us in this as is a co creator in what we've done.

And the art, they art really amplifies that magic. I think some people when they see the cards, even if they don't read them, they like, I just want the art.

Yeah, so inspired. Yeah. So what about you? What are some examples that you do.

And example of how I use it, I use it with private clients all the time, what we'll get an inspirational message at the end of a session to sort of close things out kind of close the container.

I text them a picture afterwards and they can like hold that throughout their week or the next couple of weeks that's been extremely powerful.

I had a particular client that was going through an extremely difficult time in their life. And the card came up where the graphic is of the person's standing serene with the storm swirling around them.

And it was all about accepting change and being calm through change an incredible message that came up for that individual that I know they're going to carry with them for the rest of their life really in how they operate in change and the view of change and questioning.

And it's label I'm putting on on this good whether it's good or bad is that really true.

And is there a gift underneath this that was really powerful.

The other ways that leaders can use it is meetings, you know, what you can have somebody pull a card or pick a card.

What do you think our organization represents right now? Maybe in a meeting, what do you think we need? You know, the three card pull.

What do we represent now? What what do you think we need? What's emerging for us? That can be a three card pull.

But since you are since since you are considered one of the wise elders of spirituality at work and spirituality in the workplace.

I wanted to ask you, you know, we're talking about really when someone pulls a card and it feels strangely accurate.

Why I would love to hear from you. Why is that?

That's that is such a powerful question. And for me, the answer is when we ask a question of the universe of God of something higher than ourselves.

We can be open to oracles to getting advice in lots of different ways.

And cards are a time tested way that now tarot cards are centuries old that that people have used as an oracle to get spiritual guidance.

And so why is that there could be quantum physics that explains that as an example of having an intention.

Our minds are not just our brains that there's a lot of research that shows the power of our mind goes way beyond our bodies and that we can not only send out messages that we can receive messages.

We can be, oh, I forget what the word is entanglement entanglement that there's an entanglement with energy.

And that I believe the universe is all energy. That's again, that's what quantum physics tells us everything is energy. Everything is interconnected.

And that when our minds are clear with a question, we can then be open to specific guidance that is in alignment with our higher path with what we're here to do and with who we're here to be.

And so there's this resonance that is you could call it quantum physics, you could call it spirituality.

In my mind, those are the same things they have intersected as having been separate through Descartes centuries ago.

Now they are coming together in science, including brain science and neurological studies and so on are saying that it again we're all interconnected.

There is wisdom available to us and that we can tap into it. So any affirmation cards or oracle cards have the capability to do that.

I studied with a shaman where I learned rock reading and asking a question of a large crystal and being able to understand and receive a message usually in the service of someone else.

Sending people into nature nature quest and looking at nature for a message, but the combination is always a clear question that's in alignment with purpose and an openness to receiving and trusting that you'll be guided by something higher.

Then in these cards in particular, they seem more magical Amy than any other dead maybe on bias, but there's something about what you have created and them.

I think the intention that you went into this with it was very heart centered. It was very spirit centered, highly conscious about creating something that would be meaningful to others.

You put a lot of love into that artwork and we had so much fun talking to each other about the images and what they meant for us and how some of them might be modified.

Oh, and we should talk about the spider card.

Yeah, yeah. Well, there's a lot of symbolic imagery and the cards and they're there for a reason. So when someone pulls a card or cards, they can look to symbols and work with that symbol.

Like imagery to get a message, you know, that that's meant for them. So we did that intentionally and and to really understand or at a new level, like what that image might mean for them, even if it's like this tiniest little animal in the picture compared to a bigger, you know, human that's in the picture.

But the spider, it's in the connecting piece, the ability to value others to see their uniqueness and to draw out the best in them.

That's that's what that's the connecting skill in edge walkers and the affirmation is I cultivate sustain and value my connections and relationships, but there's a deep story behind the spider, right, Judy?

Yeah, right. And so just the short version of that is that I had a dream that felt like a nightmare that actually here in this office, I was dreaming that I saw a white spider rather large one and it was a mother spider and it gave birth to thousands of little white spiders and I'm afraid of spiders not as much as I used to be, but they scare me.

And I didn't want to kill it because I don't like killing anything, but I didn't know how to get rid of all these spiders crawling around my office.

And I woke up and put that dream into chat GPT, which I'd never done before, and I got back the most beautiful interpretation of mothering, meaning creating something, all these babies,

spreading the message and the sense of edge walkers being spread throughout the world in a way of being and thinking, and it just shifted everything for me.

And I had mentioned that to you when we were talking about designs and you said, oh, I can put that on a card.

And so the idea of connecting that we're connected to people all over the world who are really deeply committed to living their spirituality and not retreating from the world, but being in it and being able to have positive impact.

And so the spider card really represents that for me, and it's just such a transformation from my fear to embracing that there's something greater here happening that we can't always see.

Mm hmm.

Yeah.

And there and there is a lot of symbolic imagery in the cards for people to look to.

So can you just comment or share some spiritual insights on tapping into intuition through symbolic imagery.

I think again, it's like any oracle that when we have this question.

That we can we can use anything for guidance and information, but that over centuries, why is people have learned that there are shared symbolic images throughout different cultures.

Any image of a woman tends to be not any image, but images of the feminine, the divine feminine have a certain meaning.

Images of trees will have that sense of both being grounded through roots and connected to something greater through the leaves.

And water, especially oceans will help us to remember the sense of oneness and interconnectedness.

Joseph Campbell was, you know, the master at describing symbols and how cross cultures, they are their guidance for us of something deeper and shared in humanity.

The cultures have unique images, but there are many images that go across cultures.

But even within cultures, there are images, you know, in the United States, the American flag is an image that is a shared image that we might give different meanings to, but it stirs something in our hearts.

It's neutral, it has a power to it.

And so that might actually be, and I think you were alluding to it too when you were talking about designing and putting even small images in here, that that's part of the magic is that the symbols there.

Even if you don't notice them in your conscious mind, your unconscious mind can pick that up and go, well, I resonate with that that lifts me, that inspires me and guides me.

Before we continue, if you'd like to explore the edge walker card deck for yourself, you can find it at the link in the show notes.

Because you are working so much with images share why that was important to you to include in the cards.

Yeah, I love art and I love symbolism.

And so my hope was, you know, if somebody pulled a card and, for example, like this one here, this is a passion, and they see the little ladybug, maybe that's all they needed to see was the ladybug there.

And then, you know, if that was the first thing you honed in on, then maybe having some fun looking up like what is the spiritual meaning of a ladybug appearing for me.

And maybe getting a message in that way or utilizing AI or like you mentioned, or just journaling about it, pen, you know, pen to paper, human picking that up.

That was my desire in putting that those symbols in the deck and then really letting the person that pulls the card, determine what that means for them.

Instead of, you know, saying what it means and having the affirmation there to guide or to maybe bring up more questions for the person to ponder.

So, well, there's another singularity with that.

The card you just showed was based on an image from Janelle King, who's a member of our edge walker.

And when I, I pulled it yesterday, that card.

Oh my gosh, really? There we go.

Oh my goodness.

And sometimes when I pull a card in a meeting, someone else in that same meeting said, I pulled that card today too.

There's a synchronicities that are, they just give me energy and enthusiasm.

It's an affirmation we're on the right path.

But what I did when, as soon as I pulled that card, was I emailed Janelle because I haven't talked to her in like a year.

And it's like, that was a message for me to talk to Janelle because she's a very special person.

Yeah, and I just had a vision with the white spider with all of the other spiders spreading out.

I mean, that's how this deck can be with, if everybody has a deck and the more people that have the deck in their hands and there's all these little interconnections that are rippling out.

Like that's amazing, right?

On another note, wondering what your advice is for someone listening that might feel just sort of exhausted or just really tired from, there's a, from all the things kind of going on in the world right now.

Yeah, any words of inspiration or how, how maybe, yeah, just any words of inspiration around that.

Yeah, and we all have to keep inspiring ourselves in each other in order to carry on.

One of the things in the cards is every one of those cards has something about light in it.

And that theme throughout is a reminder that we are in dark times.

These are very difficult times and that it's tumultuous this in Chinese astrology.

This is a year of fire horse, where things are being destroyed, new things are being created, everything's happening faster than planning and logic can keep up with.

And for me, the spiritual guidance I hold on to, one of the guidance comes from Course in Miracles.

It says choose love, not fear.

And I think of the Celestean prophecy and when there's two paths and one has more light, choose the path of light.

And I think the cards remind us, choose the path of light.

We're in the darkness, but it is evolutionary.

It is a time of letting go of what doesn't work and choosing something at a higher level that does work, a higher vibration.

And I do think that the cards are edge walker community, lots of spiritual paths, that's what they're all about is choosing light, choosing love, choosing the path of moving from a focus just on me and what I need, which is usually that if it's fear, if I'm focusing on me, I'm fear centered.

But if I focus on the oneness, my interconnection, I'm part of something greater, there's a community, there's something more meaningful and merging that I'm part of, that's the path of light, that's the path of love, that's the path of interconnection, that's what I want to remind people what we're going through is temporary.

And I really feel like edge walkers, other people might call them wayfinders or there's different names for people like us who really firmly grounded in making a difference in the world and firmly connected to something greater than ourselves.

That's the edge between the spiritual and the practical or integrated, we are needed in this time because something new is going to come after this destruction, something new is going, it wants to be born.

And so these affirmations and this community are here to help people get ready to be leaders, already people are leaders,

but to lead an even more visible and meaningful way as we move into what some people call the new era of well-being or the next era of harmony, that's what we're moving towards.

And so for me, that's the spiritual advice is don't just get trapped in what you see on the news.

That's not the whole reality, there's a bigger reality and we need each other to remind ourselves of that.

Yeah, thank you for that, thank you.

Yeah.

And what would you share, you're also a mentor for me, how do you see these times and what's needed?

Yeah, I think it's the reminder for all of us to utilize tools such as the card deck or something else that might work for you to help you tap into that light.

Like you mentioned in the imagery because sometimes we we can feel so exhausted or so like, oh my gosh, am I even making a difference with like you said with the news and everything that's going on that then it feels like I'm not going to do that because it's pointless.

Like what's what's what's that going to do, you know, things can feel so big that our ripple effect.

We can start feeling like our ripple effect isn't going to make a difference and so that's why I think it's important now more than ever for people to no matter what your orientation to changes for people to sort of explore the qualities and skills of an edge walker.

And see we, I mean, we could definitely use more support, more reminders and more people looking to the future with creative positive visualization and with vision and then shaping the future in the way we want it to be in that positive generative way.

So yeah, just from an educational standpoint alone, being an edge walker facilitator, even the deck does so much for me when I look at a skill or equality and read the just the definition it's like okay like let's let's let's practice this today it's a practice it's a skill building let's practice this and somehow things do feel lighter.

And so for me it's just a reminder that I need it's the reminder maybe somebody listening needs for all of us yeah yeah beautifully said I think we all know this inside ourselves with that reminder is so important and so I think there's meditation there's various tools and assessments and and coaching and those these different approaches and there's community.

And so all of that when you add it together really supports being who we need to be in this new emerging world and getting through this tumultuous time yeah well Judy I think you should do us the honor of pulling a message for everyone to send us off with some light today for everyone listening yeah.

All right love so what I will do Amy is I'll shuffle the cards until you say stop so that way we're co creating the energy of what card is pulled so I'll just keep doing this to you stop.

Stop.

I'm going to fan the cards out and feel for a card that wants to be pulled but you tell me again when to stop as I'm fanning them okay stop.

This card wants to come out.

Passion oh my gosh I can't okay I love it that's what happens so the definition of passion is an intense focus on your purpose or the use of your gifts in a way that adds value to your life and to the world.

And I do want to say part of the reason in that definition of to your life and the world is some people just follow their passion and don't think about impact and that's that's okay but it's a grander more expansive way to think about your impact on the world.

And some people think about only their impact on the world but they don't feel necessarily the joy of living their passion and they deplete themselves that's actually is one of the reasons people will get drained out of energy as they give and give and give and they're not coming from their deepest passion and living there what's authentic for them.

So the card here is actually based on another facilitator is from India, Ohio, Kumar and the affirmation for all of us now I use my gifts daily in my life and work I use my gifts daily in my life and work.

Then the background are all kinds of feathers, peacock feathers so a fun thing it might be to look up what is the symbology of the peacock that's certainly the idea of spreading out enjoy your tail feathers.

I think the world see your beauty that's what comes up for me absolutely yeah I clocked that peacock right away when you held it when you held the card up and it's and it's the the what are your what are your gifts because it says I use my gifts daily in my life and work and so you know honing in on the knowledge of what are these unique gifts that I have there's that peacock right.

And and let me not be afraid to use those and like spread my my beauty out to make the world a better place so right I think that's a perfect perfect card to pull to towards the end of our conversation what sorry what were you going to say Judy.

I would say one of the things I do sometimes in coaching when someone has a symbol like peacock feathers if it really resonates has a lot of meaning and energy for them then I suggest that they get it in physical form somewhere where they'll see it daily so it might be just leaving this card out on the desk somewhere.

But it also might be getting a peacock feather and maybe putting it in a vase or pinching out a picture of peacock tail in full bloom and putting it somewhere where you're mind you to use your gifts so that the physical form is part of manifesting it's taking a spiritual idea and putting into physical form and it doesn't matter how small it is.

It is that intention that moves us from idea to action that then has a positive impact so that would be some if a client pulled this that would be a suggestion I would give them amazing yeah.

Judy, thank you so much for joining me in this special episode talking about the magic of the edge walker deck and I feel like this was way deeper than a deck as it is, but the deck is just sitting with all this imagery and magic and messages that of course it was a way deeper conversation any final words before we close out today for everyone listening.

I think my final word is there is truly magic in the world and you must look for it because it's very subtle it's usually and believe it when you see it.

Thank you so it's been such a joy Amy thank you yeah thank you for sending some magic to all of us and we feel it and we see it and we believe it.

If you want to explore the magic of the edge walker card deck and see what special messages are hidden inside for you you can find it at the link in the show notes or go to create magic at work.net and click on shop.

I want to thank each and every one of you for being here as we explore what it really means to create magic at work.

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Until next time keep edge walking keep challenging the way things have always been done and keep making magic at work.

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