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Social Psychologist Barry Schwartz is an expert on decision making. His new book, (00:01:48) “Choose Wisely,” explores how the very tools we rely on to make “good” decisions can steer us wrong — and why endless options may be making us less satisfied, not more. In today’s episode, Maya sits down with Barry to unpack why choosing can feel so exhausting, the hidden costs of always trying to find the “best,” and what the rest of us can learn from people who are content with “good enough.”
And in case you missed it—Maya’s new book, (00:27:35) “The Other Side of Change,” is officially a bestseller! Order your copy at changewithmaya.com/book, or wherever you like to buy books.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Pushkin.
When our oldest grandchild was five-ish,
my wife went with her to Supermarket to buy a toothbrush,
and she got to the toothbrush section of the aisle,
and there were 150 or so, and she stood there my five-year-old granddaughter
and was just completely overwhelmed and paralyzed and finally said,
Grandma, would you pick?
Does this sound familiar?
Maybe for you, it wasn't toothbrushes,
but what couched to buy or what doctor to see.
Social psychologist Barry Schwartz, an emeritus professor at Swarthmore,
has spent decades challenging the idea that more choice is always better.
It makes making decisions harder.
It makes making good decisions harder,
and it ends up making you less satisfied even when you manage to make a good decision,
because you know, somewhere out there is something that is even better.
On today's show, Finding Satisfaction in a World Full of Endless Choice.
I'm Maya Shankar, and this is a slight change of plans,
a show about who we are and who we become in the face of a big change.
Barry Schwartz is an expert on decision making.
His latest book is called Choose Wisely.
In it, he challenges some of the conventional wisdom in tools people use to make decisions,
as well as what it even means to make the right choice.
We began with an overview of various models of decision making.
There are all kinds of ways that people make decisions, right?
Some people go with their gut.
Others choose a decision based on what they think will minimize regret.
Others go with their faith. They ask God,
can you just give us a quick history lesson on these different models
and how the scientific understanding of decision making has evolved over time?
I'd be delighted.
In some respects, this is the story that the book Choose Wisely is trying to tell.
You went through all of the kinds of approaches that people might have to make decisions
that would occur to me, going with your gut, relying on religious advice,
relying on what your friends have chosen, relying on what respected elders have chosen,
relying on habit, do the same thing today that you did last week.
All of these are ways to ease the burden of choosing.
In effect, when you do any of those things,
you're delegating the choice to some respected other person,
either the previous you or an elder in the community or a good friend or what have you.
What you just said reminds me of this very common refrain we have
in these tough moments of decision making.
Can you just decide for me?
How many times do we ask that?
We ask that of physicians.
We ask that of our parents.
We ask that of our friends, of our spouses, just make the choice for me.
In fact, a lot of times in my life,
I've wanted the universe to eliminate an option
just so that I don't have to make the choice
and have to deal with the psychic costs afterwards of regret
and questioning whether I actually made the right choice or not.
But here's the thing, from the perspective of the discipline of economics on the one hand
and the psychology of decision making,
any one of those alternatives you described is inferior to doing it the right way.
And to clarify, Barry, when you say, quote, the right way,
you're referring to a framework called a rational choice theory, right?
It is a model for how people ought to make decisions.
And you actually take issue with this model,
which we'll get to a bit later.
But for now, tell us what this theory reports.
Rational choice theory, mostly the product of economists,
is the view that the way to make good decisions,
rational choices is to assess how valuable each option is to you.
And how likely it is to be as valuable as you think it is.
Every decision is a prediction.
We sometimes predict that we'll love a restaurant,
and we don't, we predict we'll love a car, and we don't, and so on.
You create a little spreadsheet, you fill in for every option,
those two numbers, and then you do the math.
That's the way rational people make decisions.
And let me just say there's a cousin to this
that is much more consequential in a way,
because it affects policy decisions of whole entities,
rather than just yours and my decisions as individuals,
and it's called cost-benefit analysis.
What's the best way to reduce our carbon footprint?
Lots of people have different ideas about that,
and the idea is there probably is a best way,
and the way you figure it out is you figure out
how much it will cost to implement,
and how large the benefit will be,
and out of this analysis will come the clear answer to the question,
and you implement it, not just for your own personal use,
but for the whole society's use.
So we live with that kind of analysis all the time,
and we're encouraged to do that kind of analysis
when it's our own personal decisions.
That's what rational choice theory is.
It critically depends on being able to quantify things.
Is that why you think people are drawn to this model,
because it gives them a feeling of both ease and a feeling of confidence
that they have done the work, if you will,
and they have arrived at the right answer?
I think maybe so.
And let me say, it isn't incidental
that this theory is called rational choice theory.
Rational is not a descriptor.
Rational is an evaluative term.
What that means is rational choice theory
is the right way to make a choice theory.
Who wants to be irrational?
Yeah, of course.
It's in a front to our intelligence to be told
that we're being irrational.
Exactly. So there's an horrific attach to it.
And if they see weed articles and newspapers
where policy decisions are being made using a framework
very much like this, what more evidence do you need
that this is what the smart and powerful people do?
But to me, the critical notion is that
the 50 years of research by psychologists
on the errors we make
and two Nobel Prizes in economics
to psychologists who studied this.
And never, not for a second,
was there questioning of whether the standard
for what counts as a rational decision
is the right standard?
It was all just presupposed.
This is the right way to do it
and let's study the ways in which people fall short.
And the point of this book is to suggest
that the normative standard of rationality
is catastrophically bad.
You can't really use rational choice theory
unless you can quantify
how good the various outcomes will be for you
and how likely they are to be that good.
In other words, you need a value
and a probability for everything you're thinking about
and they need to be on the same scale
so that you can compare one option against another
with respect to all the things that matter to you
so you can actually do the math.
Putting discursive descriptions
in that Excel spreadsheet
isn't going to help you get to the answer
and the problem is
we give quantification more respect than it deserves.
We are often driven by the dimensions
that are most easily quantified
rather than by the dimensions
that are actually most important to us.
And that will lead to decisions
that distort what we actually care about.
There's also two other issues
that I see. One is
per the end of history illusion
where we forget that we will keep changing.
We assume we are a fixed entity
and that all of our preferences will stay stable
into the future
and that we will be excellent cognitive forecasters
and be able to anticipate how we'll feel.
We know from decades of research
that's simply not true.
We're very bad at predicting
how future events will make us feel.
And then the second thing is that
when it comes to large decisions
you have to differentiate
when it comes to how much value
you think you'll get from it
between what common
and what call experiential happiness
versus reflective happiness.
So there are lots of choices we make
where in the short term
things are really hard.
Think about having a newborn baby, right?
That's a really hard experience.
You're not sleeping.
You're barely eating.
You're not allowing your needs to be met.
But there's a massive payoff
when you take moments to evaluate,
hey, how's my life going?
Do I feel fulfilled?
Do I feel satisfied?
And having that kid
might give you a massive boost
or maybe 30 years down the line
it gives you that massive boost
and then how do you differentiate
between those and the Excel spreadsheet?
But here too,
the seduction of quantification
screws you up
because the long-term
satisfaction that you're talking about
can't be quantified
in the way that the number of hours
of sleep you get in night
and the number of hours
you can spend working on your latest project.
You know, those are quantifiable.
So what is salient
and pointable at
and measurable
in this case is all the bad stuff.
You know, and the things you're talking about
play second fiddle
because we don't know how to quantify them.
But you're absolutely right.
And let me say,
since this is your wheelhouse,
that one of the problems
that rational choice theory has
is that it takes a snapshot
of life in a given moment
and freezes it
and does not allow
for you to change
or the world to change.
You know, it tricks us into thinking
that decision-making should be easy
and it's not.
When I think about
my subjective assessment
of whether I made the best decision.
So let's say I'm trying to choose
the right car for me, okay?
I
we should not only integrate
how well the car services my needs
and meets my various
preferences and expectations.
We should also consider
these other more meta components,
namely
how I feel about the decision that I made,
whether it induces a feeling of regret in me,
whether I have psychic stress
because I'm constantly reevaluating
if it was the right choice or not.
Does rational choice theory
account for
the psychic factors,
the, well, again, when I'm calling
meta factors of how
we are in real time
evaluating the decision that we made.
Because if I'm really
upset with the decision
or it's causing me a lot of consternation,
that will eat away
at my positive utility.
You ask very good questions.
Oh, thanks very.
Every question has a more complicated answer.
I'm afraid.
So there are a couple of ways to treat this view.
You have to consider
what you might call transaction costs.
There is a price that you pay
for complexifying your decision.
And maybe it's not worth paying the price.
Like mental transaction costs to be clear.
Yes, and not just mental,
you know, like it takes time
and that's time
that you could be spending doing something else
like doing your job better.
So that's one problem.
If you factor in the transaction costs,
you might adopt a different decision strategy.
Yes.
The second thing is that from the economist point of view,
adding options and thus making the decision
more complicated can't be bad.
And they can't be bad because if you're happy,
alternating between two breakfast cereals,
and I add a third one to the grocery shelf,
you can ignore it.
So adding an option doesn't make you worse off
and it may make somebody better off.
And if it's true of a third option,
it's the same thing as true of a fourth
and a fifth and a fifth and a hundredth.
So that approach essentially doesn't acknowledge
that the kind of costs you're worrying about exist.
What I suggest in the book is that more is better than less,
but a point is reached where still more starts to become worse.
And it can become sufficiently worse
that instead of being liberated
by all these options you're paralyzed.
After the break, Barry gives us a path
out of decision paralysis.
We'll be back in a moment with a slight change of plans.
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Hey everybody, it's Nate.
All right, two truths to the lie.
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Professor Barry Schwartz and I have been talking
about the sneaky mental costs of decision making.
One reason you might find choosing between options
particularly stressful is because you're a maximizer.
Psychologists contrast this with another type of decision maker,
a satisfacer.
I ask Barry to explain the difference.
A maximizer is someone who's out for the best.
Whatever that means, the best can be subjective.
In fact, it is almost always subjective.
But if you're buying a new appliance,
you want the best appliance.
And if you're buying a new car,
you want the best car.
And if you're buying a house,
you want the best house,
yada yada yada.
A satisfacer is someone who wants good enough.
If you're lucky, you'll look at one thing.
It meets your standards and you're done.
And in some areas, that can mean very low standards.
And in others, it can mean very high standards.
But once you find good enough, you stop looking.
And the reason this is important is that in the world,
we currently live in, if you want the best,
you have to look at every option.
And as everybody knows,
when you start looking at every option,
you'll be dead before you get to the end of the list.
So it's become an unachievable goal to find the best.
I love that you articulate that a satisfacer
can have very high standards.
It's just that it's good enough
against the backdrop of those high standards.
It does not mean that you are okay
with bottom of the barrel outcomes.
It's really important at this point,
because most people, when they hear
satisfying, which is a technical term
invented by a Nobel Prize-winning
psychologist slash economist 70 years ago,
they don't hear it as a neutral description.
Yes.
You know, when you say satisfies,
what people hear is settling.
Yes, exactly.
And nobody thinks that settling is neutral.
I mean, it's used disparagingly
in the context of relationships, for example,
don't settle.
Absolutely, you know?
And so there's a word in parentheses that isn't stated.
And that word is just.
He's just settling,
which is an implicit criticism.
And so I think everybody is pushing us
and we push ourselves not to accept good enough
because we should have higher expectations of ourselves.
We should make more demands of ourselves and so on.
What we've found, and other people have found,
is that it makes making decisions harder.
In some cases, close to impossible,
it makes making good decisions harder.
And it ends up making you less satisfied
even when you manage to make a good decision.
Totally.
Because you know, somewhere out there
is something that is even better.
Absolutely.
You know, if you get into, you know, 10 colleges,
you can torture yourself to oblivion,
trying to decide which of these colleges to go to,
when people a little older than you know,
it doesn't make a damn bit of difference.
Totally.
There's a New Yorker cartoon that I show sometimes
when I give talks on this
of a young woman who's got a sweatshirt
that says brown parentheses,
but my first choice was Yale.
Now, it's funny,
but imagine spending four years at Brown,
a wonderful institution.
And every day you wake up with that sentence in your head.
Yeah.
Are you going to get as much out of being at Brown
as you possibly can?
Not on your life.
You'll spend every day you're at Brown
thinking how much better life would be
if only you'd gotten into Yale.
So it's not, it's not a frivolous problem.
It's a very serious problem.
It's debilitating.
It makes people feel like they are consistently
making bad decisions
and it undermines confidence
and sap's energy.
So it's very, I think, very consequential.
Yeah, my friends who are on dating apps
feel this acutely, you know?
It used to be that you,
well, back in the good old days, right?
You had a few options.
Maybe it's who you went to school with
or to church with
or saw it your local community, whatever.
And now what's so interesting
about the dating app thing is
it's not even like you had the 10 options laid out
in front of you.
It's that you know
that if you keep swiping,
you will keep getting more and more people.
So there is this counterfactual world
of infinite options
that lives in your head at all times
which can really eat away
at your ability to
satisfy.
A lot of the point
of the paradox of choice is to show
that even when people make good decisions
by their own standards,
they feel less good about them.
Yeah, for a variety of reasons.
You know, if it's not perfect,
you regret having chosen it.
If you haven't been able to look
at all the options,
you're sure that some option out there
that you didn't get to
would be better than the one
that you ended up choosing.
And all of that makes the quality,
the subjective quality,
the decision feel less good.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I have so many reflections here.
One is, I mean,
you strike me as someone who's
more of a satisfactory
than a maximizer.
Very much so.
I'm curious to know for people listening
who are,
well, one, I'm imagining
someone's listening,
they might think,
well, I'm not across the board,
a satisfactory maximizer.
There are certain areas of life,
certain domains of life,
where I doesn't really matter
to me what microwave I get.
I'm a satisfactory in that domain.
But when it comes to my long-term partner,
I'm going to be a maximizer.
So they might have that response.
What I want to know from you is,
is a satisfying mindset,
something people can cultivate.
Let's say that they're being driven
crazy by their maximizing tendencies.
Can they do something about it very
or are we sort of destined
just to be the way we are?
So I have two things to say.
First, you're absolutely right
that nobody's a maximizer
about everything.
Which means, of course,
that we all know how to be
satisfieders,
because there are some decisions
where that's what we are.
And people have,
that most people's intuitions are,
well, you know,
with unimportant stuff,
it's foolish to maximize.
But when it gets to be important,
why would you not look for the best?
And it relationships is often
where people, you know,
can't imagine what it would mean
to look for a good enough life partner.
So there's one or two studies
where they try to induce people
to take up maximizing
or a satisfying orientation
and suggest that you can create
a satisfying orientation
in people who on the questionnaires
that we develop look like they're maximizers.
How interesting.
What's unsatisfying about that
is you don't know how long this lasts.
You're in the lab,
you get something to read
or to hear and
it makes you a
satisfacer for the next 30 minutes.
And then what?
I'm imagining someone reading this
right before they get proposed too.
That's an issue of proposal.
I just need to last for 30 minutes, Barry.
Yes, the unsolved confident
proposer would probably
ship that treatment condition to the
partner so that, you know,
this is the golden 30-minute window
when you're going to say yes.
Yeah.
But the other piece of evidence I have
is that when the book,
The Paradox of Choice, came out
which was 20 years ago,
I've got hundreds, maybe thousands of emails
from people who said,
I thought I was the only one who had this problem.
I thank you so much for making it clear
that the world has given me
and a lot of other people this problem.
You mean, when they said I didn't know
I was the only one to suffer from this,
it was the maximizing mindset, right?
Correct.
And it succeeded in changing the way they
made decisions.
So this is personal testimony.
I obviously don't have any data
about what A, whether they actually
did change the way they make decisions
and B, whether that lasts.
I do think it's a meaningful
that if a short intervention
where you're reading about someone
who's a satisfy surface as a maximizer
can give you that little nudge
to think slightly differently,
that's meaningful because at least shows
this is malleable enough.
And I also think that the mere recognition
of these two concepts is powerful in its own right.
I feel like when I was studying
judgment and decision-making during my postdoc
and was learning about these concepts,
I'm just thinking through my daily decisions
and when I find that I've been
in the Google search rabbit hole
for four hours trying to figure out
what couch I want,
I can at least use labels.
To identify what's happening.
And you can ask yourself this primary question.
Is this decision worthy
of the maximizing mindset given the cost
I will incur to my psychological well-being?
I absolutely agree.
Giving a name to things often
in many ways defuses the impact
that these things will have
and finding out that you're just one
among many will make you stop
feeling like that you have some pathology
that needs to be corrected.
So I think that's right, naming things helps a lot
and it can lead to very different strategies
and very different approaches to making decisions.
Yes.
What I have just started doing
is using a slightly different word
to distinguish it from rational
and the word is reasonable.
And so it seems to me
that what you want
is reasonable choice theory
which acknowledges
that not everything can be quantified,
not everything can be compared to everything else.
All you can do is
you're giving it your best shot
and thinking about the
aspects of the decision that seem important
and how you'll respond to those aspects
and how the people you care about will
with the understanding
that you should not expect the level of precision
that is greater than the problem you are trying to solve.
There are certain kinds of decisions
where it seems quite reasonable
to try to be as precise as possible.
You know, if you're deciding
what bet to make in a gambling casino
you should know the odds
and you should know how much you're going to win
and how much you're going to lose.
The precision is there
and there's no excuse for you not knowing it.
But when you're trying to decide
where to go on vacation
or what job to take
or how to discipline your kid
who's just transgressed
that kind of precision doesn't exist.
And when you seek it
or impose it
you're distorting the problem
that you need to solve
rather than illuminating it.
But you know,
this is not snap your fingers
and it goes away.
You've got habits.
It's going to feel very uncomfortable
in the beginning
for you to break those habits
and you'll think,
oh, what did I,
what opportunity did I
pass up by not spending
another 10 minutes looking?
But over time you will discover
that you feel maybe even better
about your decisions
and your day has suddenly added
a couple of hours.
So how about reasonable choice theory
instead of rational choice theory?
Love it.
Barry, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you so much.
It's such a pleasure to see you again.
Hey, thanks so much for listening.
If you know someone
who's currently struggling
with the tough decision,
make sure to send them this episode.
And if you found life
making choices for you,
make sure to read my new book
The Other Side of Change,
who we become
when life makes other plans.
You can find it wherever you buy books
or at the link in show notes.
We'll be back in a week
with another episode
of a slight change of plans.
I'll see you then.
Bye.
A slight change of plans
is created written
and executive produced by Mimeo Shunker.
The slight change family
includes our showrunner,
Alexander Gerritan,
our editor, Daphne Chen,
our lead producer,
Megan Luben,
our associate producer,
Sonia Gerwitt,
and our sound engineer,
Erica Huang.
Louis Scarra wrote
our delightful theme song
and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals.
A slight change of plans
is a production of Pushkin Industries,
so big thanks to everyone there.
And of course,
a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee.
Ooh.
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All the talk of probiotics can get confusing,
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Why?
What does it do?
Let's make it easy.
Garden of Life's doctor formulated
one-staley women's probiotic
is the number one women's probiotic.
Why should you take it?
Well, Garden of Life transforms
a range of probiotic strains
to support digestive, immune, and vaginal health.
Plus, this doctor formulated non-GMO formula
is designed specifically for women.
Simply put,
this is an easy way to support your gut health.
Garden of Life, formulas for feeling alive,
available on Amazon.
Number one, based on Serkana,
52-week multi-eulate unit sales
ending November 20th, 2025.
These statements have not been evaluated
by the Food and Drug Administration.
This product is not intended to diagnose,
treat, cure, or prevent any disease.
Exema is unpredictable.
But you can flare less with ebglyce.
A once-monthly treatment for moderate to severe eczema.
After an initial four-month or longer dosing phase,
about four and ten people taking ebglyce,
achieved itch relief and glare
are almost glare skin at 16 weeks.
And most of those people maintain skin
that's still more glare at one year with monthly dosing.
Ebglyce, LibriKizumap, LBKZ,
a 250-mg per 2-mL injection
is a prescription medicine used
to treat adults and children 12 years of age
and older who weigh at least 88 pounds
or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema.
Also called atopic dermatitis
that is not well controlled
with prescription therapies used on the skin
or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies.
Ebglyce can be used with or without
topical corticosteroids.
Don't use if you're allergic to ebglyce.
A allergic reactions can occur that can be severe.
Eye problems can occur.
Tell your doctor if you have new
or worsening eye problems.
You should not receive a live vaccine
when treated with ebglyce.
Before starting ebglyce,
tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection.
Ask your doctor about ebglyce
and visit ebglyce.lili.com
or call 1-800-LiliRX
or 1-800-545-5979.
This is an iHeart podcast.
Guaranteed Human.
A Slight Change of Plans


