Focus on the Family with Jim Daly - How to Answer Challenges to Your Faith (Part 1 of 2)

Hey parents, for almost 40 years adventures in Odyssey has been helping kids

like yours form relationships with Christ. Now the animated adventures in

Odyssey film Journey into the Impossible will reach a new generation of

families. But we need your help to finish the film and launch it in theaters. Your

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donate today at FocusOnTheFamily.com slash Impossible. That's FocusOnTheFamily.com

slash Impossible. If Christians want to make a bigger impact they need to get a

little bit more education about the issues themselves and about some method I

offer one. Some method that's effective to move forward and when they do that

they are going to see things change. I promise you they will see things change

and they won't feel so defeated. Especially when they realize that their

viewpoint, their view of reality is actually true. That's Greg Cocal and he's our

guest today on FocusOnTheFamily with Jim Daley. Thanks for joining us. I'm John

Fuller. John as believers we're called to share the message of Christ. That's the

great commission to go and tell people about Jesus and some people struggle

with that because maybe their temperament isn't built in such a way that

they're easily engaging people. You might say extrovert, introvert. I don't know

that that always applies but it's just some of the wiring that we have. We're

either comfortable or not comfortable in talking to people who don't know

the Lord. We call it being a witness. There's going to be, you know, non-

Christians listening so that just really means to profess our faith in Christ to

people who don't know about Christ and it's that simple. The key is being

prepared and I'm excited to talk to our guest today because I think this will

really help equip especially those that may be floundering a little bit when

it comes to sharing their faith. They don't feel equipped enough or confident

enough to do it and the best thing about our guest Greg Cocal is doing it with a

good heart and I love that emphasis that he has. He's really eager to share

faith but not in a way that is overwhelming and you'll hear more from Greg

here in just a moment. He's an apologist. He's the founder of the ministry

called Stand Reason. He hosts a radio show on podcast. He's written a number of

books and he has a new one out called Street Smarts using questions to answer

Christianity's toughest challenges. Greg, welcome back. Hey, it's good to be

with you. Gentlemen, it's always a treat for me. It's good to see you. Let's start

with that opening idea. You know, there is that hesitation or the lack of

comfortableness in doing this, talking to someone else about the faith. Why is

it important for us to do this? Well, we have the message that saves the world.

It's pretty good. That's a pretty good start, right? But I am very sympathetic to

people who are reluctant to engage and you mentioned a moment ago that some

are foundering a little bit. I think most Christians find engaging on

controversial issues a bit discomforting and I'm the same way. It's normal.

It's very normal. And in Street Smarts, I start out with this concept, you know,

even someone like myself finds it difficult to engage. And so this is why

finding ways to do so effectively, so important, even for a guy like me, because

the message that we have is so important and I have never seen a time when the

culture was so aggressively against virtually everything Christian. Every

piece of the story of reality, the Christian worldview, is being opposed in

every sector right now, which means Christians are pretty hard pressed and

they need a way to engage productively and graciously. Get off the bench and get

into pleasant conversations that matter. You know, oftentimes when I'm in

conversations with folks, they'll mention that engagement piece, the idea

that it can be uncomfortable because people are so aggressive. You know, they

really hate what we have to share. Coach that person, I think sometimes we go

into those engagements thinking this is some kind of a battle that we have to

win. And you really have to mentally prepare yourself and emotionally prepare

yourself to say this isn't a battle we need to win. We just need to put the

evidence out there. Yeah, that's a great distinction. The winning of the battle is

on God's side of the equation. It's not an ours. But think about Matthew 10 when

Jesus sent the apostles out in their short-term mission kind of enterprise.

There are three times within about seven sentences where Jesus says fear

not, fear not, fear not. Now why did he say that? Because we were fearful. Well,

not only were they were fearful, but there was something to fear. He goes on to

tell him, you know, you're going to, it's going to be rough out there. You know,

and you're going to, you're going to get persecuted for the truth. Okay, but he

told them that to prepare them. Okay, and then he said you got an ally in the

Holy Spirit. Okay, he's going to help you. But notice, he didn't say that at the

beginning of his training. Well, you got the Holy Spirit. That's all you need.

At the beginning of this training, he said, I will make you fishers of men. And

then after a year or so of working with them and training them. So they had

what they needed to face the challenges. Then he began sending them out,

saying, trust in the Holy Spirit. So it's the Holy Spirit doing the Holy

Spirit's work with the things that we have been able to learn as followers of

Christ about the culture, about the issues. And that combination is what's going

to make the difference. And this is why I wrote street smarts to give that

information to do the training. So to speak so people can take the message out.

Yeah. And Greg, that's what I'm excited about because the rest of this program

and next time we're going to cover that and you are going to help to begin that

equipping. And then hopefully folks will get a copy of the book and dig deeper

into the content. Let's get into it. I was struck by the fact that you say it's

a good thing that Christianity can be questioned and even considered to be

unreliable. At first, I was like, what are you saying, Greg? But I get it. Explain it.

Yeah. Well, I tell audiences that the fact is there's a lot of ways to show

the Christianity as false. No, they don't expect me to say that, obviously.

But when you think about it, our story starts in the beginning. God, if

there's no God, there's no story where Christians were followers of Jesus.

If Jesus didn't exist, and there's a big movement to trying to say that nowadays,

well, then we don't get off the ground either. Or if he's not the person that

the text, the gospel, say he is, then we're in trouble. If there is no soul,

there's nothing to survive the death of the body, no heaven or hell.

You know, Paul said that if Jesus didn't rise from the dead, people should

pity us. Right. So the point is, in principle, there are lots of ways that

Christianity is actually falsifiable. Now, this isn't a bad thing.

It's a good thing because if a view is falsifiable, it's verifiable.

In other words, it can be shown to be true if it can be shown to be false.

And of course, this is what people like, like I do,

Paul, just and you've had a number of them on recently, we give the reasons why

God exists. Jesus existed. And he was the person recorded in the gospels.

We talk about existence of the soul. We talk about the resurrection.

We give all of those rationales to give evidence that God and the world is the

way the Scriptures describe. Yeah. You know, Greg, one thing that I've encountered

is this idea that God built this on faith. He wants faith to be the demonstration

that you believe. So I think it's very purposeful that you're not going to find

this concreteness. It's not going to be like gravity because he himself wants

to see that you have faith in him. Okay, let me speak to this because it's really

important. Sometimes we can get the faith thing separated from the content or the

evidence. I want you to and the two actually scripturally go together.

So if you think about the end of the gospel of John, John tells us why he wrote

the gospel. He said, many other signs and wonders, God has performed or Jesus,

was Jesus performed that are not written in this book, seven miracles there in the

gospel of John. He said, but these have been included in order that you would know that

Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and have faith in him and get eternal life through

that. So in other words, he's connecting faith in Christ and eternal life with the evidence

that's being given. So there is not a leap of faith. The way a lot of the atheists claim

right now, there is a step of trust based on good reason. Okay. Now it can all be gains

eight. People can find all kinds of problems with it and say, no, that didn't happen.

Here's the reasons why. So there's room for doubt, but there's plenty and plenty of

evidence, you know, many convincing proofs is the way Luke put it in the beginning of

X. Well, in a court of law, the preponderance of evidence in some of the cases are what

is required to make the test. And that I would say that's what Christianity provides.

There's a preponderance of evidence that Jesus is who he said he was. And they captured

only a few of the miracles that he did. That's right. That insight. John said the books

of the world couldn't hold all that Jesus did, right? Right. Let me move to another kind

of what kind of question, which is in 30 years, you've never actually been the one to lead

someone to Christ. Yeah, that's another one that shocks the audiences, but I haven't

prayed with someone to receive Christ in at least 30 years. So you're the teller and

the water. Well, yeah, that's the reaper. That's right. And so this is to shock people

into considering another concept, because I also tell them that I've never been more

effective for the cause of Christ than I have in the last 30 years. And that's because

of a concept that I laid hold of that is thoroughly biblical. And that is that there's a difference

between harvesting and what I call gardening, you know, Jesus talks about those who so

and those who reap. It's in John chapter four. Okay. And he tells the disciples, you're

about to reap where you did not sow. This is after his conversation with the woman at

the well, right? In other words, somebody else did the heavy lifting and they get the easy

pickings. But Jesus identifies there one field, psychar, but he also identifies two seasons,

sewing and reaping, gardening and harvesting the way I put it and two kinds of workers,

and harvesters, sores and reapers. And the problem, what I discovered is, as I looked at

my life, I'm actually not a reaper. I'm not a harvester. I'm a gardener. And the things

that I do in the writing, the books and when I'm on campus, spoken to more than 80 university

campuses around the country. And what am I doing? I'm gardening, gardening, gardening. And

then I'm trusting God to bring the harvest in when it's ready. Yeah. Here's my conviction.

Not only do I think I'm a gardener, but I also think most Christians are gardeners,

because that's where the work is done for harvest to take place. But the methods that we

have for evangelism are always harvesting methods. There it is. The last page, you know, do

you want to pray to receive Christ, sign on the dotted line, that kind of thing. And

when people, Christians consider that motif in a hostile environment, they stay on the

bench. They're not going to get engaged. Okay. So what I'm trying to do is provide a means,

a toolkit, so to speak, of gardening effectively and let God worry about the harvest when the

harvest comes in. It's good to know your bent. In that regard, I think I saw a statistic

or based on research where it's 12 harvesting touches before a person accepts Christ. Now,

I don't know how they did the research, but that proves your point. But it makes perfect

sounds to one radio. Absolutely. And maybe even more than that in the culture now.

And that certainly was true of me. My Christian football coaches in high school that made an

impression on me. They, you know, I wasn't there in the immediate moment. It took time for me to

to be harvested if I could say it that way. So I totally get that. I'm sure that's true of

everybody's experience in coming to Christ. Your method of debating someone with opposing views

is to ask questions. Now again, people are saying, well, yeah, I've read the scripture. That's

what Jesus did too. Explain that methodology. Well, I took my cue from an old TV guy named

Colombo and a lot of folks remember him, Lieutenant Colombo, because the detective, the detective,

right? He would come in kind of under the radar scratch at his head, kind of feeling like you

think he doesn't know what he's doing, right? But he's stupid like a fox because he's got a plan

and his plan is to ask these questions. And the questions that he asks are inconsequential

the first. He just kind of generally gathering information. But what he's doing is he's building a

case little by little by little this information. Okay. And, and I found that this to be them

absolutely hands down most effective way to move forward in a conversation. Be effective for the

cause of Christ and still stay safe yourself. I, my comment isn't as a chapter in the book called

Questions Keep You Safe. You're in the, for a number of reasons, but you're in the shallow end

of the pool. What am I trying to do? I'm trying to get Christians off the bench and into the garden

so they can do some gardening with a very simple but powerful technique, which is all explained

in the book, of course. But that's the key there. Questions. Questions keep you safe and they are

powerful for use by God to make an impact in people's lives. How if you're a closer if I could

use that example if you're the closer mentality. Yeah. You actually could do some damage if the

fruit's not right. You're picking the fruit too early. So how do you, if that is who you are?

And again, know who you are. How do you back up a bit? And so, okay, it's not futile to ask

questions because I think that personality type is like, why would I waste time asking questions?

The only question that counts is do you know Jesus? Do you want to receive him or something like that?

But that is in the way Jesus approached it. Okay. And so when I look at the gospels, I see

Jesus doing something entirely different than a lot of us doing our culture right now. We jump

in with the good news and we explain the good news and we say something about sin occasionally

and then we invite people to receive Christ. But Jesus didn't get to the good news very often

at all. A lot of times he spent time with the bad news. Look at the sermon on the mount. You know,

I mean, there's a lot of bad news in that first chapter. There's the woman at the well. I'm

smiling because he was like, woman, I'm in front of you. It's me. Yes, but notice that he said

that after he had talked to her about that. And that's the question. You've had five husbands

in the one you're living with. Now, this doesn't mean we got to jump right in on top of people

and talk about sin. The point is what Jesus was doing and we saw with Paul is you'd almost never

see them trying to close the deal, inviting people to receive Christ, having an alter call. Those

aren't in the New Testament. What do you see them doing? Responding to the need of the moment and

the individual circumstance with the person. Paul said in Colossians four, conduct yourselves

with wisdom towards outsiders, making the most of the opportunity, let your words be with grace,

seasoned as it were, resolved. I mean, that's pretty cool, right? And then he says so that you know

how to respond to each person. And this is the key. With a tactical approach, using questions,

it allows you to focus right on the individual. You're not just bringing a generalized cookie cutter

thing and jumping it on them. You're listening to them talk. You're getting to know that individual.

And that's powerful in people's lives. Greg, we've talked about the theoretical here. Now,

let's get down to some practical examples that you have. One is with a waitress in Seattle. I love

that. You know, oftentimes I've been with people and I've done this a couple times. You know,

we're about to pray over our meal. Can we pray for something for you? Yeah. It's a nice way to get

that out there. But what happened with this waitress in Seattle? The advantages of asking

questions is it gets you going in a simple way. And what a lot of people don't realize is just

asking simple questions is going to also make an impact, even though you're not preaching the

gospel. So here I am in Seattle. I did a apologetics event on Friday night and all day Saturday. I

wasn't the only speaker, but I worked really hard. That Sunday morning, I had a preaching at church.

And so I'm dragging my roller bag out of the hotel into the cafe. I'm my way out. I'm just

going to get some coffee to wake up. And the subtext here is, I'm not a morning person.

All right, I quit before my first cup of coffee. I'm an atheist, right? So

I do, honest to goodness, I do not want to talk to anybody about Jesus. I can know that feeling

from time to time. Yeah. I don't want to talk about God. I don't want to talk. Okay. And this

waitress comes up to the table and she is way too energetic for that time of the day for me.

Hi, good morning and doing what are you doing here at Seattle? So I figure I get rid of her.

I'm going to preach in a church in two hours. Oh, I thought she'd be scurrying then.

Oh, that's great. I think why is that great? I said, are you a Christian? And she said, no,

I used to be a Christian, but I'm not. By the way, notice that I'm asking a question.

Yeah, right. I'm confused by her response. So I just ask a question. All right. When that's the

Columbo tactic and the first question is, what do you mean by that? That's the general question.

And in here, I'm asking, why is that great? Which is a Columbo? I'm not trying to witness.

I'm just trying to figure out what she's talking about. And she said, no, I'm no longer a Christian.

Now the universe takes care of me. And I'm thinking, huh? You know, what does that mean?

So I asked her, how could the universe take care? Is the universe a person? She goes, oh, no,

not it's not a person. Well, then how could it take care of you? And that made her think. And then

she says, well, God takes care of me. Oh, okay. That makes sense. And then she says, God is the

universe. And I'm thinking, huh? You know, kind of, but I didn't say that. I'm being polite to her.

And I'm trying to figure out what she means. Now notice, I am not trying to witness. Right.

I don't want to try to figure it out. It's my inner Columbo that's just coming out, you know,

with simple questions of clarification, try to figure out what she's talking about.

So I asked her some more questions. I didn't have the slightest impact or so it seemed on her frame

of mind. She was completely comfortable with her new age thing. And then she trots off and brings

my order. And then when she brings my check, and this is the key, she says to me, no one has ever

asked me questions about my view before. And it got me thinking, which is exactly what the

Columbo tactic is meant to do. And I said, well, if I had more time, you know, I could ask you

more questions and you could do more thinking. You know, I was kidding with her. It turned on. I

did have a copy of the story of reality in my bag, which we've talked about here on the past.

And so I gave her a copy. So I left something behind for her. But here's the takeaway.

I didn't want to witness. I didn't want to get involved in a conversation. I didn't want to talk

at all. But I couldn't help myself in this conversation just asking a couple of clarification

questions. And it turned out God used that in her life to get her thinking about her own view.

And of course, that's all I want to do. That's my goal. It isn't to close the deal. I'm not

swinging for the fences. I just want to put a stone in their shoe. I just want to get them

thinking. And that's all the time I had for it. No, that's really good. And now she's in God's hands.

Let me ask you this Columbo approach. I love it. And we've mentioned that before you and I,

because I fell into it, talking to people in DC, I kind of use that same approach. I'm not an

attorney. I could meet with Supreme Court justices and others and go, you know, I don't know much

about this. But where do these rights derive from? And then they are very professoral or fatherly,

even with me to say, well, Jim, this is how it happens. Which is great. Given me a little tutorial.

But you also in the book, Mitch, and how lies and deception play into all this. And I'm not talking

about DC directly, nothing. But generally, how do lies and deception play into these conversations?

Well, this is a more backstory for us as followers of Christ. Okay. And I talk about the spiritual

battle in the street. As Paul says in Ephesians six, our battle is not against flesh and blood.

I mean, those are the points of contact and confrontation. But the real battle is in the spiritual

arena of forces of wickedness in heavenly places. And when you look at the scriptures and it talks

about the devil, it says over and over again, the whole wall lies in the power of the evil one.

He's blind in the eyes of the unbelieving. You know, they can't see Christ because of the

blinding that he's done. And so what the devil does is he blinds people from the truth by telling

them lies. Okay. And Jesus said the devil is the father of lies. He lies from his nature.

So we take this insight then and we go to the culture. And it helps inform us that there are

schemes going on and lies we see everywhere. And we see them and they're obvious. A person says

there is no truth. I mean, my quick response is really is that true? I mean, it almost seems

glib to say it, but I try to weave it in with some other things. But the point I'm making is this

is obviously false. But people think this all over the place. Well, you got to slow down a minute

there because people need to hear what you said when somebody said there is no truth. And that's

the truth. Yes, they're claiming a truth claim. So last week, last weekend, I was given a talk

in a church in Denver and a woman came up to me and she said her daughter went to university and

the professor told the class that there is no truth. Okay. Now, I said she should ask her for

her money back. You know, what kind of thing? But think of this. When somebody says that to you,

I ask them, what am I supposed to take away from this? I think you want me to believe you. I think

you want me to affirm it. I think you want me to think you're right in what you say. But the minute

I try to do that, I'm being told by you that I can't do that. I can't believe what you said

is true because there isn't none of that stuff. Now, the point I'm making here is this is a

way that a lot of people talk. People should know better. And it's obviously false, but they

don't see it. Right. Why don't they see it? Because they have been blinded by the devil. All right.

You talk about the gender issue right now, the gender issue. It's hard to believe what's happening

on our country, on the gender issue. Yet why can't people see reality in this regard? Okay. And the

reason is is because there is a scheme that blinds the world to what is obviously so Christians

can see it. Okay. The world doesn't. So our job then is to go in graciously understanding the

enemy is up there or out there. He's the devil. The schemes. We see the schemes. And then we

maneuver graciously with questions. This is what I found to be the most effective. And in the book,

I have lots of examples of specific questions for specific issues. In order to help them to see

trusting that God will take the truth that we're communicating to them and open their eyes. Yeah.

And that is so good. And I think that's one of the difficulties we're in right now. And our

country particularly is that the truth divide is getting bigger. You cannot say this is a hand.

Well, you may say it's a hand, but I think it's a foot. Sorry. Right. And that's going to create

great difficulty or bigger challenges for us to talk to non-believers. That's right. Because

it's going to be harder to agree on. And you can't parody this stuff. You just gave a little parody

down the line six weeks from now. Somebody's going to be doing that. They're going to have a

website all about it. That's what's so crazy and followers and followers. So in that context,

right at the end here, one of the obvious questions is as a Christian trying to equip him or

herself to be able to do these things, what if they're consistently feeling defeated?

Even when you say, remember, it's not your battle. It's God's battle. But it feels like you're on

the arena floor spiritually. And so you walk away from a confrontation feeling like the score was

21 14. And I lost the game. Sure. How do we get away from that scoreboard mentality and just

trust that God will use what you've done? Right. Your little mustard seed is sufficient.

Well, there's a couple thoughts that come quickly to mind. One of them is you read through

scripture and you find these small things that people did ended up being used for great effect

in other people's lives. Okay. And I've seen that myself. But part of the difficulty is, look,

everybody starts at the beginning. Everybody starts at the beginning. You want to start engaging

culture. Okay. We have the truth. How do we communicate that in a way that makes sense to the people

that we're talking to where there's a learning process here? This is why in street smarts, I start

out with a few chapters that kind of gets people going. And then we talk about specific topics

to give insight in the problems. And then once you have insight in the problems, having some

dialogic kind of cues, asking questions to move forward. And then you start to do that. Okay.

Now, what I tell people though, and I did this last week and at the end of a talk, I said, look,

this is a great way to engage. And it's really, really productive. But if you don't do it,

it don't work. Okay. And what I've tried to do is provide a way of allowing Christians to stay

in the shallow end of the pool and still make a difference. But the key is the way we use questions.

So if Christians want to make a bigger impact, they need to get a little bit more education

about the issues themselves. And about some method, I offer one, some method that's effective

to move forward. And when they do that, they are going to see things change. I promise you,

they will see things change. And they won't feel so defeated, especially when they realize that

their viewpoint, their view of reality is actually true. And this is one of the greatest things

about Christians, apologetics. It helps Christians to face the toughest critic,

they'll ever face. And that's themselves. Now, that's good. Greg, this has been so good. And

there's more to cover. Next time I want to come back and get real specific on the topic of

abortion and some of the big cultural topics. Maybe do a little banter with you playing the

opposition. And we can go through that discussion just to equip people again on how to answer

these questions and be engaged. But boy, for the listener, for the viewer, this is a must read.

I mean, these, I don't know, maybe it's just me. I think I'm an evangelist at heart. So I get

excited about this kind of equipping. It doesn't intimidate me. I'm hungry for it. And if you're in

that spot, or maybe you're thinking, maybe I could be in that spot, give us a call. Go to the

website, get a copy of Greg's book. If you can join us in ministry and help us monthly, we'll send

you a copy of the book as our way of saying thank you for being in and helping other families.

If you can only make a one time gift, we'll send you the book to say thank you. The bottom line is

get a copy of this book and begin that great challenge. And I like to think of it that way

being equipped to ask the questions and answering some questions that people that don't know the

Lord are going to deeply benefit with. Yeah. Donate today. Join the support team. Get a copy of

the book by Greg's street smarts and start living kind of expectantly about how God could use you

in the lives of others. Our number is 800, a letter A in the word family, or we've got all the

details in the show notes. We'll plan to be with us next time. For now on behalf of Jim

Daly and the entire team, I'm John Fuller, thanking you for being here and inviting you back as

we once again help you and your family. Thrive in Christ.

Live your truth. A lot of people say that, don't they? But truth isn't something we decide.

God has decided it for us and it's our job as believers to share his truth with a world in need.

I'll encourage you to do that through my podcast, ReFocus with Jim Daly.

I visit with fascinating guests about important topics like gender confusion,

cancel culture and more while helping you share God's love with others.

Listen at ReFocus with JimDaily.com