Freedom of Thought by Humanists International

Hi everyone, my name is Harry. I am the fundraising and communications officer here at Humanist International.

I just wanted to let you know that we have now opened a mailbag for the podcast,

so you can send any queries or questions you have to FOT at humanise.live.

In other exciting news for the final episode of this season of the podcast,

Gary and Leon will be doing an Ask Me Anything episode.

Please submit your questions to FOT at humanise.live to be featured on the podcast.

They can be serious, they can be silly, we would just love to hear from you.

Thank you.

Welcome to Freedom of Thought, a podcast by Humanist International.

I'm Leon Langdon, Senior Advocacy Officer at Humanist International.

And I'm Gadda McLelland, Chief Executive of Humanist International.

It's a real pleasure to be speaking with you today, and we're delighted to be launching this new podcast series,

which shares its name with Humanist International's flagship annual publication, The Freedom of Thought Report.

Each week we'll be discussing news, research, policy developments and campaigns related to Freedom of Thought around the world.

But first, we wanted to take a little time to introduce ourselves, explain the history and work of Humanist International,

and why now felt like the right moment to launch this podcast.

It's very exciting that we're doing this, since we've been talking about it for so long.

I don't know, Gary, if you want to go ahead and give us a bit of an introduction into, let's just say, yourself to begin.

Sure.

Yes, so I've been the Chief Executive of Humanists International for almost exactly nine years, it'll be nine years next week.

Before that, I worked at the Humanist Society Scotland, and before that, I had a sort of short career working in social services in Scotland.

Before I joined Humanist International, I was doing a Masters in Human Rights Law, and my research was into Blass Emelos,

which is obviously a very interesting topic when I came to work here at Humanist International.

What about you, Leon? What's your background?

I'm a baby compared to you in that I've been at Humanist International only two and a half years.

I've been Senior Advocacy Officer just since September last year, and I lead our Advocacy of International Institutions,

my background is in and around those institutions, mostly at the UN, now working at the UN Human Rights Council, UNESCO,

and also regional organizations working to capacity-build our members, lifting up our members' forces.

Great. And before you worked at Humanist International, you were also doing work at the UN Systems, don't you?

Yeah, I had a brief enough stint in working for counterterrorism at the UN, which is a very interesting field, not one that I spend too much time in,

and then I was working on humanitarian affairs at the UN Security Council for a government there.

So my background is very much in human rights, so I studied law and then a Masters in International Relations all very focused on human rights,

but yeah, kind of have a broader experience within the UN system.

Gary, I think it's worth us explaining what Humanist International is, who we are, for those of us who are hopefully hearing about this for the first time, might be curious to know more.

Humanist International is a fascinating organization, a very old and prestigious organization.

We were founded in 1952 in Amsterdam. The organization, though, does have roots way back to the middle of the 19th century,

but certainly, at least in Europe, the two world wars in the 20th century, decimated any chances of that organization continuing.

So it was reborn again in 1952, really at the height of the postwar, optimistic internationalist movement of human rights building, UN building, institution building.

So that's kind of where the roots and the ethos of the organization lie.

In fact, many of the people who were at the founding Congress of Humanist International went on to play a leading role in the United Nations and its associated bodies.

So, for example, our founding chairman, Julian Huxley went on to found UNESCO.

And I think of around about five of the first UN agencies, three of them were humanists who were involved in the creation of Humanist International.

It came from a very important time in history and certainly in European history of optimism and obviously coming on from the horrors of the Second World War and what we'd seen in the genocide,

a real need for international collaboration and promotion of human rights.

So that was kind of the genesis of the organization. Initially, when it was set up, one of its primary missions was to build, represent, and grow the humanist movement by linking humanist organizations together,

including congresses and being that international body to help form policy and do organizational development.

But one of the key tasks that we were given was advocacy was to make sure that humanists have a voice at the United Nations, which was then flourishing new organization,

and to make sure that international policy, law and the human rights system can be shaped according to humanist values.

One of the things when I started at this job almost a decade ago, I was most proud to do was to look through our policy resources.

So if you go onto the Humanist International website, you can see way, way back to the 1950s.

And indeed, some of the policies predate the organization, the policies that we set out back then.

And it's really a very proud history that I think that we can look back on.

I think that's something that when you and I are working together, we try to talk about is kind of our ability to influence international policy can be limited at times when geopolitics come into play, when great powers are at work.

But I think it's always important to remember that lineage and to really make sure that we're not just putting a statement for now, but also in sort of honor of those who have worked for 70,

and like you say, even before 70 years time ago, but also for those who will hopefully be still working for this organization and for the humanist movement in another 70 years, ideally.

Yeah, exactly.

Do you want to tell us about our members a little bit and talk about our current membership structure and the great work they're doing around the world?

So humanist international when it was founded back in 1952 was founded by five organizations at the moment right now in 2026, we have around 130 member organizations in about 65 countries around the world.

And the members are really the heart of the entire organization.

It's the entire purpose of humanist international existing.

So our members are very much at the heart of everything that we do.

We're a member led organization.

So members attend our general assembly, which is the ultimate decision making body of humanists international.

It's our members that elect our board which govern the organization.

And so it's really our members that are the primary way that we work.

We work in collaboration with our members to be the voice of humanists at the United Nations and other regional bodies around the world, including the European Union.

And hopefully soon, the African Commission.

And it's yet they're really the way that we work is through a collaboration with our members.

I know that's one of the greatest privileges of this job.

And I remember talking about it in my interview a couple of years ago for this job.

There's a great privilege in working for an organization with such a globally diverse network.

So when we're working like you say at the United Nations, UNESCO, African Commission, European Union, so much of the work is about going to our members asking what they want to talk about.

And literally giving them the microphone and saying, here, go give a statement at the UN.

Go work on this UN report because I think their experience, their lived experience of being humanists of being human rights defenders of standing up for LGBTQ plus rights for reproductive rights for the right to freedom of religion or belief in freedom of expression.

That is what this organization is built on, like you say, as it was then the International Humanist and Ethical Union is built on a collection of members from around the world coming together to say that this is what they want to do.

Exactly. And I think that's what makes us different from other general human rights NGOs is that we have members all around the world.

So when we make statements about issues that are happening in India or Guatemala or whatever, it's the voices of genuine humanist organizations working in those countries that we are showcasing.

It's not desk reports and research papers. It's the lived experience of humanist activists from around the world. And that's what shapes the work that we do.

And you were just in Washington, DC with one of our board members and the head of one of our members last week, right?

That's right. Yeah. I was in Washington last week attending the IRF summit, the International Religious Freedom Summit, which was an interesting experience that this IRF summit is a very well, very slick, well-produced conference sponsored by a lot of organizations like NGOs, but also meta and some big corporate sponsors held in Washington.

And it has its origin really a way back during the first Trump presidency. There was a series of international meetings called international ministerials for the advancement of international religious freedom.

And we attended those back in that would have been 2018, 19 with some reservations because as people will know, the full title of that human right is freedom of religion or belief.

Indeed, it's actually freedom of conscience, religion, belief, but the focus on religious freedom seems a particularly American thing.

And so we attended these international ministerials with some skepticism, but we wanted to be in the room to shape policy to be part of the conversations to make sure that the humanist voice was represented.

But I think having been at that summit last week, I'm now starting to reflect on some of the big differences that I noticed.

So even during the first Trump presidency back in 2018, 19, there was still quite a big discussion of the intersection of LGBTQ rights and religious freedom or for as well as women's rights and other minority human rights and how they intersect with each other, which is obviously how it should be done.

And having reflected on the summit last week, one of the things that seems obvious to me now was there was no critical engagement with the difficult intersection of human rights.

There was no even critical assessment of the US government's current policies and foreign policy. And I think that was quite a surprising shift to notice.

And it's not a surprise given prevailing trends at the moment, but nonetheless, it's something that's worth paying attention to and noticing.

So that was interesting.

I think it's important for listeners to know that when we talk about the sort of human rights world, it is fracturing to some extent. And I think that's why it's important for us as well as keeping up our presence at the United Nations.

We also have to reckon with the reality of the US has just left a lot of United Nations bodies, human rights council, they're no longer engaging with their universal periodic review, they've left UNESCO.

And I think with that in mind, unfortunately, whether countries are engaged with the UN or not, they still matter, especially a country as big and as classically powerful as the US.

And so I think it's important for us to like you say, make sure that the humanist voices is at the table that the rights in non-religious are sort of stood up for and are represented.

And also that we know what's going on, that we know what conversations are going on, that we know what our allies are talking about, but also those that we're left aligned with what they're talking about.

I'll be in Geneva in a couple of weeks for the 61st session of the Human Rights Council, and I think that's going to be a particularly interesting moment on freedom of religion or belief and character in religious hatred or hatred based on religion or belief.

That's an area that has seen fracturing at the UN in the last couple of years with instances of blasphemy and things like that.

The general feeling is it's going to be a bit better and the there are maybe bigger issues that separate from this, but I think the issue of religion or belief recognition of the non-religious freedom of expression is something we're constantly trying to deal with then against this backdrop of a difficult time, let's say.

Very much so. And it may be just interesting for our listeners to hear a bit more about what goes on at these human rights council sessions.

Obviously, our members will know that you, one of the jobs you do there is deliver statements and makes statements out the council and encourage our members and support them to make statements, but what else is going on behind the scenes and the corridors and so on?

My sort of two weeks there will be pretty chock full of meetings with either other NGO colleagues as a humanist organization.

And we said in an interesting intersection, I've obviously been talking about religion already in a lot of ways we're considered sort of a religious and life stance organization.

We're sort of put in that sort of cleavage where we're talking about, yeah, religion or belief and advocating for the nights and non-religious, but we're also very much a broader human rights organization.

Like you say, looking at the intersection of freedom of religion or belief in LGBTI plus rights or sexual orientation gender identity, reproductive rights, women's rights, children's rights.

I'm thinking about witchcraft in Africa or their harmful traditional practices, these are all things that we were found, of course, civil society space, democratic backsliding, all things which we're really trying to meet the moment with.

And so we'll be working not just with colleagues on freedom of religion belief, but also colleagues on these broader issues.

So it'll be a lot of meetings, it'll be meetings with those NGO colleagues, it'll be meetings with states trying to move our priorities along to make sure that we're known to make sure that we're invited to the right rooms at the very times and sitting at the right tables.

Like we say, but also in Geneva, at the Human Rights Council sessions, because we're in accredited NGO, we also have the right to not just deliver statements publicly, but also engage in what they call informal consultations, which are facing negotiations of UN resolutions.

And so once upon a time they were able to be hybrid as well, but admits this sort of funding crisis that the UN is going through.

We don't have the luxury of that sort of hybrid for most of those anymore, so I'll be in the room and I'll be engaging in those conversations.

I'll be literally putting my hand up and asking for the right to speak and to do the same as what states do, which is go through these pieces of international online by line and asking for changes or recommendations.

And we do sometimes get listened to, which is an important thing to note, but it's very much about being in the right room and trying to catch the right people at the right time.

And I think for me, that's a really important part of why we've decided to launch this podcast now.

You've mentioned about the US withdrawal from these international treaties.

I think most of our listeners will see just from the national politics of their country and the news that there's a really big challenge to even some of the fundamental principles of human rights and international cooperation right now.

Right this morning when we're recording this, there's a news article that the UN is months away from ceasing to function because some states are not paying their fees on time.

So there's a whole lot of pressure against this international system and I think we ourselves have said when the past that there are problems with the international system of diplomacy as we have it now.

There's a lot of bureaucratic, it's too slow and so on and so forth, but it is also the best system that we have ever invented and it took a lot of time and effort to get here and the future must be about engaging and reforming rather than retreating and backing away from.

I think that's part of what I hope we can get out of this podcast is to share with our members and supporters a bit of an insight into what actually goes on behind these rooms and these meetings and hopefully try and demystify a bit of this system and the work that we do.

But what about Julian? I think just to pick up on what you said about meeting the moment and about the maybe the flaws with the international system at the moment.

One of the things I've consistently taken issue with is as much as countries pay lip service to human rights that it's that the UN can be, you know, focuses on great powers and they focus on very much state-to-state relations.

And I think one of the things we do with the UN, like I mentioned, is raising the voice of our members, but there is a flaw in the system in that individuals experiences are often relegated within that.

And so I think in launching this podcast, I think there's a great opportunity for our listeners to hear individual experiences as well as just about the kind of broad stuff.

And I mean that both in terms of hearing about our work at the UN, hearing about that work with our members and the national governments, but also the individual stories behind that.

And I think when you look at all these challenges, authoritarianism, religious nationalism of all stripes, the declining civil society space, challenges multilateralism.

I think when we talk about reform, when we talk about fixing the system like this, I think the key to that is putting people back at the center rather than states, rather than trade, rather than tech, whatever it might be.

I think all of those things need to serve people rather than the other way around.

Very good. And of course, we should mention as well, one of the best ways that people can get involved in this if they haven't already is to sign up for a ticket to the World Humanist Congress, which will take place in Ottawa this August.

At the time of recording, you've got about a few weeks left to secure an early bird discount ticket before they run out at the end of February.

So if you want to join in the resistance to this backsliding, this challenge to human rights, then one of the best ways that you can do that is to join the World Humanist Congress in Ottawa and secure your ticket as soon as possible so that you get the early bird discount.

So Leon, next week we will both be in Brussels for the launch of the Freedom of Thought report. We're also hoping to interview Mabarak Bala, who many people remember the president of the Humanist Association of Nigeria, who spent five years in prison on charges amounting to blasphemy.

So that should be a really exciting episode.

Yeah, I think over the next couple of episodes after that, I think we want to get into the history of humanist international, talking more about the international human rights priorities, talking to national members and national legislators who are pushing for human rights or other policies based on humanist values, whatever institutions they might be involved in.

That's going to be very good.

Thanks very much, Leon, for explaining to us a bit more about what you're role and what you do at the United Nations.

I think it's going to be really important for us to be able to unpack some of this important work for our members and hopefully try and explain why it's more important than ever that they lean into this international cooperation, this work at the United Nations, this diplomatic work.

I think it's, it's just an interesting thing to reflect, I think even in my career with humanist international, we've gone from a position of being generally very popular and politically acceptable to a situation where now we find ourselves almost having to defend the principle of universal human rights from first principles as somehow a kind of strange view or a radical position, which is kind of an interesting one.

So I'm very grateful that you've had the time to explain to us what your role is and I look forward to unpacking that more over the next few weeks.

I think the idea that humanism is radical is one that I'm increasingly buying into and of course I guess humanism is resistant to all the things we're talking about.

So yeah, very excited to get into this to be a partner in this and to bring our listeners some hopefully interesting conversations both with us but more importantly with the people at the centre of it like we say.

And we want this to be useful to our members and supporters so please do let us know if there's anything in particular you'd like us to cover.

You can get in touch with us and also please do download the episode, subscribe and engage with the content and we very much look forward to hearing from you.

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Links to everything are in the show notes.

Thanks so much for listening to this first episode of Freedom of Thought. We'll be really glad you're here.

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