All of us reach a point in time where we are depleted, and need to somehow find a way

to reignite the fire within, but how do we spark that flame?

Welcome to Reignite Resilience, where we will venture into the heart of the human spirit.

We'll discuss the art of reigniting our passion and strategies to stoke our enthusiasm.

And now, here are your hosts, Natalie Davis and Pamela Cass.

Welcome back to another episode of Reignite Resilience.

I am your co-host, Natalie Davis, and I'm so excited to be back with all of you today.

And of course, joining me is at your co-host Pam Cass.

Hello, Pam.

How are you?

Just a little giggly, because before we even got on with our guest, you were telling

a story about getting the emissions test done on your car, and I was laughing so incredibly.

It made my entire day.

And I think you need to give a really high level of that story, because everyone has been

in that space where they're like, oh, no, tell me this isn't so, and I have to get out

of my car.

I would be happy to.

And, you know, here's the thing, it's one of those moments where you just go through

your day.

I looked at my agenda.

I knew what I had to do for the day, right, like my schedule for the day, and I had an afternoon

workout that actually would wrap up right before the emissions testing center closed for

the day.

And so, I got the little notification that my car registration was due, and I needed to

get an emissions test this time.

And I don't remember the last time I had an emissions test.

And so don't come after me, Colorado emissions people.

I don't know how frequently you're supposed to do it, but I don't recall getting out of

my car the last time I went through.

So I actually do hot sauna exercises.

So I am typically drenched in sweat whenever I am done with my workouts.

And when I say drenched, I mean literally.

And so I get out of my workout.

I head on over to the emissions testing place, and there are three or four cars in front

of me, and I'm sitting there and I'm on the phone with my daughter.

And I see a gentleman get out of his car, three or four cars up.

And I said to my daughter, oh my gosh, why did that man get out of his car?

What is he doing?

Maybe he left something in his trunk.

And I just dismiss it.

And we are the line of cars start to go up, and the next person gets out of their car.

And the stress and overwhelm that I have, and let me just let you know, the only exit

is through the emissions testing port.

You have to go through the garage.

And so I am now freaking out because I am drenched in sweat, barely dressed.

I am only dressed for a sauna workout.

And I pull up, and the gentleman comes up to the car, and I open my door because I'm

already freaking out, and I open my door, and he looks at me, he said, does your window

go down?

And I said, it does.

And so I put the window down, and he goes, I just need to know your mileage.

I said, okay, sure.

And I give him the mileage.

And I said, and anything else, he goes, just leave the car, the keys in the car.

And I sweat my head around, and I said, I had to get out of the car, and he goes, yes,

man, you do.

I said, okay, and then he said, you can just go and have a seat in this waiting room.

I said, I'm not sitting on anyone's furniture anywhere.

I cannot.

Oh my gosh.

Yes, it's one of those moments where I thought, you just drive, it's drive through.

So I thought you would drive, no, no, no, no, and I was trying to explain to you.

I was like, no, remember how they have it like set up on the on wraps and you, that's

the only time that I'm doing it in a mission tent.

Well, that was the only thing I was prepared for that day.

Yeah.

So that was my embarrassing moment.

I, I got so excited, I looked from all of the technicians, and you know what?

I passed.

I'm good.

It's fine.

It's always good.

And the next time you have to have it, you'll probably forget again.

I will forget again.

Oh, forget again.

Anyways, all I am embarrassing moments to the side.

We have an amazing guest that's joining us today.

So I want to dive right in so that we don't miss a moment.

Pam, why don't you let her listen to you?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

So today we have joining us, James McKenna.

He is an artist who's had challenges with bipolar disorder and borderline personality

disorder for most of his life.

Relationships have failed.

Careers didn't pan out and reoccurrent depression is just awful.

Over time, he's recognized patterns in building a new after each.

Sometimes his art comes out of his rough times.

Welcome, James.

We are absolutely honored to have you with us today and yeah, share with us kind of your

journey.

I mean, you've had quite a journey to deal with multiple disorders.

Yeah, it has.

It has been.

I didn't used to go back into the past because you know, there's a lot of pain in the past.

But I just learned about this borderline personality disorder thing like a few weeks ago, not

long, like moments before I sent to you, I'm sure.

And then I started reading about it and it's like, all of a sudden, you know, yeah, this

is me.

This is me.

This is me.

It's not a pretty sight.

You know, it's not a borderline is a tough one.

So that is part of my life now and that's part of what I want to talk about.

I guess I'll start kind of at the beginning with my childhood.

I don't want to just like, you know, yeah, I am born, it's not like this is the significant

parts of your child.

But do you remember?

I was apparently very sensitive child and I was kind of put through a ringer by my dad.

He was emotionally abusive and he drank a lot and it was just very rough on me.

And I'll be really clear.

I do not blame him because he had his dad and his dad had his dad and no blame.

And I cared for my dad the last 10 years of his life, not a problem, not a problem.

But this is the fact of my life.

This is what happened to me.

So he wanted me to be something special.

He wanted me to be actually to be in the Olympics at 16.

Wow.

So I was a figure skater and I was getting pretty good.

And he was sending me to a competition and I wasn't doing real great.

I was pretty good, but I wasn't, you know, real good.

So that was a big disappointment.

So I went through this kind of round after round of, oh, you know, you're going to make

it.

You're going to be in the Olympics.

Oh, you know, you dumb asses and no, this is not going to work.

He can't be this way.

And so I'm just constantly built up and torn down, built, built up and torn down.

And I began to be afraid of him.

So, you know, because I was like the focus of his anger.

That just made my life kind of a living hell.

Well, my own life was not good.

So that's kind of how I got formed as an adult living as a bipolar and borderline personality

disorder.

I find that I am highly sensitive to people's moods and feelings.

I can, I'm a very good, I was an average.

I was just advertising.

And I used to do all the presentations of the creative to people and I would come in.

I could read a room and I could tell when somebody was getting bored.

I could tell when somebody was, you know, getting amped up, you know, I could read it well.

So I can do that.

But then I become insensitive to people's moods and feelings when they interfere with what

I want.

It's like, interesting.

Oh.

What do I do with this?

So learning that about this BPD has been a very valuable thing.

I wish I had known about it before because it's like, now I know what I'm up against.

You know, and once you know what you're up against, you can begin to take action.

And I am doing that, though I'm noticing every day.

I noticed, oh, wow, I was pretty irritable there for no reason.

And that's one of the things too.

I know there's one of the things being selfish and one of my things is that I'm generous.

And you know, I give things away.

I don't have a problem with that.

But in the moment, I'm like, I'll take the last brownie, you know, I'm like, I'm like

that kind of guy who's like, oh, I'll take that, that's my, you know, that's whatever.

And yet, you know, it's just a back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.

So that is difficulty I have with BPD.

So the resilience has come with facing the down times after a marriage years ago.

I had a very bad down time.

I behaved badly and I spent a year when I would get home from work.

I was working in the agency.

I would work at work at the agency had fine, good day, did everything with everybody,

did the presentations, whatever needed to be done.

I would come home, put my stuff down, sit down and cry.

This was a year I did this.

And it was just all the regret, all the wishing I had done it differently.

And I just couldn't, you know, I couldn't deal.

And so that's kind of what I had to deal with that time.

And I learned from that.

I learned what it's like to be at the bottom again.

I had a previous marriage that I'd failed and I was at the bottom there too.

And I could observe myself and I want to go in later to not a system exactly,

but a way I've come up with to use being at the bottom.

So that's kind of the positive thing we're going to get out of this.

So James, would you share so the personality disorder you just learned about,

kind of before you had reached out to us, but the bipolar,

was that something you were diagnosed with as a child?

Or was it something that showed up later?

And it shows up pretty much when you're a young adult.

And that's when you showed up in me.

And what I was dealt was bipolar depression.

So I'll be down for a lot and then I'll be super up.

And then I'll be down for a while.

And I say, I had the time of my life when I was super up for months at a time.

And it was just bad news for everybody.

Just bad news all around.

So yeah, but that's this typically a teenage early adulthood thing.

It doesn't seem to be in children so much.

OK, interesting.

And so you would have these absolute highs.

Were there certain things that triggered you to create the lows that you noticed?

I think being criticized a lot, that hurts.

That hurts me.

But when I'm super up on a super high, it just rolls off my back.

You know, it's no big deal.

But if I'm at all vulnerable moment,

that can start to really bring me down.

So yeah, it can be triggered.

Mostly, though, it's, you know, the down times can be long and everything.

But generally, it's a cycle.

I'm on like about a nine day cycle.

I'll be up for about seven or eight days.

And then I'll be just like, it's all falling apart.

It's all falling apart.

And then a couple of days later, I'm up, you know, and things are fine.

So I'm being treated, you know, if I've kind of got stuff that will help me

through the troughs.

So yeah, I mean, my life is not bad.

I said a day and write a book and have a big success story.

But I laugh easily.

I enjoy spending time with friends.

We talk about all kinds of stuff.

It's not, you know, I'm not a Debbie Downer.

I have challenges, but I don't, I don't feel the need to talk about them.

I mean, I'd rather people ask me, how are you doing?

I was like, well, not so great, but how are you doing?

You know, we take off on that because, you know,

what's everybody's favorite topic?

Well, themselves.

So that's not hard at all to get the camera off of me.

People love to talk about themselves.

You're absolutely right.

You ask them about themselves.

They're happy to do.

They do.

And now they tell me about yourself.

Exactly.

And I feel that I'm sure enough for everyone to out there for that.

Oh, you asked us a little bit about your art and how that has played kind of a role

in getting through what you've been going through.

That's my art.

I didn't prep for that as much as I should have.

I'd make the things I'd make.

I make them out of kind of a blankness.

I mean, I just, oh, that's kind of cool.

You know, what I'm seeing in my head and I'll draw.

I was like, yeah, I like that.

And then I'll make that.

And then I'll discover, you know, not even what I'm making it,

but months or years later, oh my God, I put that out for people to see.

That's like showing my inner self.

And that's really scary.

Like at one, it's a piece of steel with several rocks set in the steel.

And they're just in different positions and different relations to each other.

And I never thought about it.

It was just kind of a design exercise.

But it's a circle that tells my life with my first wife.

This is like, you know, our early times, our marriage together, our first child, our second

child.

And then we got divorced and eventually she died.

So that was, that was rough for my kids.

But then there's the three stones at the bottom, which is kind of my life now with my sons.

The three of us have something really special together.

They're my kids anymore.

They're 40 and 39.

So anyway, more about the art.

People seem to relate to it in, it comes out of pain.

I mean, when I make these things, it comes out of pain.

I mean, it's like, oh, this is really cool.

But even as I'm making it, I can feel like, you know, this kind of hurts to make this.

I don't know what it's, what it's going to be, but it kind of hurts to make it.

So people respond to what I do as, wow, you know, that's where I was and I am so glad

I'm not there anymore.

So that is, that's kind of the big, the good thing that I can bring to the world.

The pain is all kind of leached out of it and people can use it for whatever they wanted

to use it for.

Wow.

So it's resonating with people when they're seeing it, they're seeing themselves in your artwork.

Let's take a quick break.

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If it really does, I had an incident, something that happened when I had a friend of my sons.

We read a celebration.

And he was looking at this art all around on the walls and it's like, okay, this is my

cue.

I'm an artist and he said, every artist is like they want to whip out their phone.

And so he asked the right question, so I whipped out my phone and I showed him one of the

pieces and he just got really quiet.

He said, I really want that.

It spoke to him.

And it was kind of a happy celebratory moment, so we didn't really talk about what was going

on.

But the look on his face wasn't aesthetic.

You know, it was, it was looked like this and I, we know each other.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

How long had you been practicing or creating in that space before sharing it with your

son?

I guess I started on the work that I'm doing right now.

I started about eight years ago and that kind of developed some years before that when

I was doing things for a gallery, a woman that I knew she is gallery and she said something

about metal.

And I was at that time learning how to weld and I thought, you know, I could do metal.

And so I said, you're, I can do metal.

And she asked for the particular things and I was doing little small things that, you

know, they were kind of like frames that went around pictures and just some kind of cool

stuff.

And then I just kind of grew it like I started making bigger things and bigger things and

bigger things.

And she was still like, okay, I like this a lot.

This is, but by the time I got to three feet by three feet, she was like, yeah, I like

this.

I like this.

We can take one.

Yeah.

Oh.

Yeah.

We can't have four five with this hanging in the gallery.

We can take one.

Okay.

Okay.

Note it.

But that didn't slow me down.

I kept making them and they kept sitting there staring me down.

So that's, that's where I am now.

I got to get rid of my current inventory, you know, I'm going to get rid of current inventory.

And are you still, do you still have that relationship with the art gallery?

Not the same as it was before.

I, I entered a program to learn how to sell my art.

And so I raised my prices and she said, well, we really can't sell it at that price.

It wasn't selling at any price.

So that was okay.

So I took, took my work out of her gallery and I have it here.

But yeah, we're fine.

I mean, that's, that's not a problem.

That's not a problem.

So I'm curious, James, because you, you mentioned that at an earlier age, like criticism

was something that kind of, you know, sparked response within you and, and being an artist,

then like you said, I mean, putting your work out there for the world to see, right?

And basically, they get to see a little piece of your soul because you are pouring yourself

into this.

So how do you prepare yourself for potential criticism or have you had to face any of

that?

Oh, yeah.

I finished my MFA in 2023.

Well, this goes back.

Go back to advertising because advertising, people don't feel shy.

You know, when you bring work in there, not shy, they will tell me, I don't like that.

And they may tell you exactly why.

And so I didn't get as much as a thick skin as I got a division as long as people don't

talk about me.

You know, you're stupid or, you know, you make bad art.

Well, that hurts.

But if we're talking about the art, that's fine.

And I came to grad school and learned very quickly that my favorite mentors were the ones

who were hard on my art.

In fact, there was too stories, I'm going to tell you.

Shortly after I got to the program, the head of the program came in.

We were talking.

And he said that.

And something.

He said, yeah, you make trinkets for walls.

I'm like, thanks a lot, you know, thanks a lot, you know, head of the program.

And yes, you know, if you're out there, you'll know this story because, you know, I've told

it a million times.

But that was sort of kind of about me.

So that kind of stung.

But I looked at my work.

And the next day I knew, you know, you're right.

And that the work that I'm showing now is selling, that is kind of trinkets for walls.

It is things that make your walls look better than they decorate.

It's all those things.

And I do have a separate body of work that came out of my MFA, that is all the things

that you would expect.

MFA, you know, student to come up with, they're like installations and performance and all

these things that they're unrelated to what art that I can actually sell.

But the other story was the mentor that I ended up staying with the most was woman, she,

I hadn't, I'd met her, but I hadn't really talked to her much because I didn't have

any classes with her.

And so I asked to have a studio visit, you know, come in and have a look at my stuff.

And so she came in, I had just finished this piece, I had it on the wall, I was actually

kind of proud of it, you know, I kind of looked back to art history and worked around with

the metal and everything.

And so I said, so, so, man, what do you think of that?

And she said, yeah, that looks like something that was made to look like a piece of art.

I mean, that was her first shot.

That was her first shot.

And I, you know, I don't know what I looked like, but I looked at her, I know, I looked at

it.

And I said, yeah, you know, you're right.

So let's go.

And she never said a positive thing about my work for six months, not one positive

work.

But I tell you what, I was growing so fast, people would come in and they would see

what I was doing and they would come in two weeks later and it's like, where did this

come from?

Yeah, yeah, I was just developing so quickly, it was a very exciting time.

Yeah.

Yeah, I really liked that.

But I learned there, even as an advertising, and at this point, you can say anything

you want about my art.

But in fact, keep going, you know, explain to me what is wrong.

Or if you like it, explain to me what's right.

But what I don't want to hear is what most artists will tell you.

I love your work.

I mean, just telling you all you out there, just know that artists, it kind of hurts because

you know, I want to know why you like my work, what moves you?

Or if you don't like my work or if you do like it, but there's something wrong, tell

me that.

Engage.

You know, you go to the art fairs and people, they don't have time.

You know, they either like it or they don't.

And they're looking for the $25 ear rings and the $50, you know, $50 or something else.

And they're not looking for the multi-thousand dollar kind of stuff that I have.

So I don't go to those.

But when they go around and then I've done this myself, you go around the stalls and you

look and it's not saying, not your thing, you turn, you look to the artist and say, you

have beautiful work.

Now, as an artist, having gone through that, I will never, ever do that.

I will, I will, I will point to something and I will say, you know, this is what I like

about that.

And I'll say, you know, but I wish something, something, something.

And I feel certain they will say, wow, thank you so much.

Oh, I love that.

I think that's great advice.

I mean, we have a lot of sculpture shows that come to this part of the world, we're

in Colorado.

So that's a great thing to keep in mind as we're visiting with artists and just as our

listeners are out there, right?

It's not, I love your work.

It's great.

And carry on.

Yeah.

It lands back.

If you want to say something, look around and pick out the thing that made you like their

work the most and say, I like this the most.

I like it because, and even if you can just give them a sentence or two, they'll like their

ears will pop up and it's like, thank you.

And I'll say, Paul, say, thank you very much because, you know, they sit there all day

waiting to hear that one thing.

I love what that teacher did for you because by her, what she said to you, that's where

the growth happened because what do you say, six months.

So she saw something bigger for you.

And she just kept doing that to push you to be better and better and what a cool opportunity

to have somebody like that that challenged you to get to that next level.

Yeah.

Very much.

I mean, I just, just love her to bits.

And you have an opportunity to choose, right?

That's what it always comes down to is you have the choice because in that moment you

could have said, really?

I think it's amazing.

Yeah.

I'm going to take my things out of here.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I have choices.

And it's not an official thing.

Mentors.

Mentors are the people you turn to.

They're the people who are the ones who help you, who who feel you and you feel them.

And they can show up at any time.

And she just turned out in the school to be the one that most, that fed me the most.

And there were people I was, were easier people who were kind of like the official people

I should be working with, but not, you know, cast any shade.

Those relationships were wonderful too.

And I learned a great amount from them.

But I tell you, the things that were in did to my work is just night and day with the

thing that I showed her on the wall was the last trinket I ever made.

Well, until I came to what I'm doing now, because as I said, I got a grad school and I was

making instant installations.

And this is not saleable.

I can't, this is not supportable.

I don't know.

I don't know what I was thinking, you know, getting the end of grad school and thinking,

I guess I thought somebody's going to pick me up.

I'm going to be a star, you know, to like, of course, you told me I was going to be a star.

It did not happen.

It did not happen.

From a marketing standpoint, that part of my brain thinks that you should have just trademarked

that, right?

Like wall trinkets by James.

Here you go.

Not too late.

Not too late.

Not too late.

Not too late.

So I can do that.

James, do you find that you have more of that creative spark when you're having those

higher moments or is it when you realize that you're in the low and you use it more of

a way to express or is it a combination?

I think it creates the high.

I mean, different artists call it different things, but I call it being in the dream world.

It's a place where there is no time and I'm just, I'm totally engaged with what I'm doing.

And the odd thing is that with steel, you know, you can't, you can't draw a steel.

It's a weeks long, months long process to build something and it's just failure and success

and failure and success and just all those problem solving, problem solving.

But when I'm doing it, I'm in the zone.

I'm there.

I'm like 100% there and that is the high.

I honestly don't know if that makes me go into a high, like just generally, you know, I walk

out of there and I'm still high.

I think I do.

I think I do.

But then the first thing that I run into that brings me down, I'm kind of fragile and

I'll go down so that being in the dream world, that's where I want to be.

But the real world, I'll tell you a story about the dream world.

Don't tell anybody.

Okay, we want to say a word.

Just be between us.

Yes.

I was at an art show.

I got to go to an art show.

I knew a friend of mine was going to be there.

So I went, I was going to go to try to find her stuff.

But I was like dead tired at that time.

I was staying up till three and four in the morning.

I don't know why I was doing this.

But I was doing it.

So I got there and it's like middle of the day and I'm like, you know, following the

sweep, walking around.

So I walked into this coffee shop and I say, you know what, can you just give me a double

shot?

And so they gave me a double shot.

I went over a table.

I was like, took the shot and like, still like that.

I did six double shot.

I don't think it keeps in like instantly, Jim.

No.

I mean, for me, it's already palatating.

Like I did.

And I checked my pulse.

I wasn't, my heart was not going to beat out of my chest, but I got outside and everything

was different.

It was all, it was, it was like being in the dream world when I'm working.

I was just hyper focused.

And yet everything was just a slight move away.

And it wasn't like, you know, if I run into somebody, they won't notice because I'm

not there or they're not there.

That wasn't at all.

It had all the rules of the world.

But it was just like very slightly grayed out as all I can say.

Yeah.

It was wonderful.

I did kind of try it with, with four shots, as far as that one time, I'm not, I'm not

24 anymore.

And I can't do, I can't do that.

Okay.

So that's when you were younger.

Yes.

No, actually, this was last year.

Oh, wow.

But I did.

I didn't know.

It was going to happen because I don't drink a ton of coffee, you know?

Oh my god.

Six, you know, six shots of hot, wow, six, six, six, well, and here's the thing when

you're, like, you're, it becomes like the thing where you're chasing that dream world,

right?

Like, if you know what it's like to be in that space naturally and now caffeinated way

of getting there, absolutely, yeah.

Thank you for joining us today on the Reignite Resilience Podcast.

We hope you had some aha moments and learned a few new real life ideas to fuel.

And the flames of passion, please subscribe on your favorite streaming platform, like or

download your favorite episodes, and of course, share with your friends and family.

We look forward to seeing you again next time on Reignite Resilience.

That's the book, The Quiet Gift, a journey of self-worth and resilience is now available

on audio book at Amazon.

Make sure that you check the link in the show notes so that you can click on that and download

a copy of the audio book.

This is an amazing story written by Pam as a part of the red journal series and narrated

by Kristen Aiken Salada.

So we hope you enjoy.

Until next time, we'll see you soon.