From the oldest Hagaddahs to a Hasidic sedar that ends 4am | David Akerman, Yiddishkeit

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Hello, everyone.

My name is Frida Vizel,

and I'm a New York City Brooklyn-based Jewish YouTuber

with an interest in all things,

Jewish subcultures, religion, New York City,

and human interest stories.

Passover is an intense, rich Jewish holiday

that I haven't even begun scratching the surface on

in my work.

One of the most famous, biggest pieces of Passover

is the Seder.

The long endless meal where Jews celebrate the story

of being freed from slavery in Egypt.

We do it by reading from a book called a Haggada.

This is a book with a series of rituals and readings.

The word Seder means order,

and it's rituals and reading of eating,

doing things and telling stories.

And today I wanna go through it.

I wanna go through the Haggada

with a particular nerdy twist.

My fellow Jewish YouTuber, David Akerman

from the Channel Yiddish Guide,

has been knee deep into exploring the story

of the Haggada for his channel.

David is now a return guest to my program.

I've talked to him before about Jewish movies.

That was a really enjoyable conversation.

For this Passover, he is completing a three-year movie

project documenting various Haggadas

and their rich illustrations.

We're going to go through the Seder in order,

the Seder in the Haggada,

also in abbreviation,

because we're trying to keep this to an hour.

So we're not gonna be here all night.

We're gonna be looking at different Haggada pages

with different illustrations and their stories.

Along the way, we can focus on how these

tell different stories and similar stories.

I have been grown up ascetic.

I'm eager to see how different Jews

have told these stories.

Just a little note, there's a tradition on Passover

to ask for an afficomment, a small gift.

I wanna ask you the viewers for a small afficomment.

If you're able to support my work

by being a channel member, that would mean so much,

trying to build up a channel membership

because it's very hard to support this work

without sponsors.

And members are becoming the primary way

I cover costs of production.

So thank you for the afficomment.

I'd give you a piece of handmade Chmuramatsu

as thanks if I could, but in the interim,

a happy Passover.

Hi David, how are you?

Hey Frida, it's good to be here.

Are you very busy Passover?

I'm really just crunching, trying to finish this film.

This is gonna be the third Passover

I'm attempting to release this before.

Handsome.

It's like a pre-pass over craziness for you.

I've gotten the sense in our pre-production conversations

that it's like cleaning your house

from Passover the way you're cleaning up this edit.

In a way like a lot of people tend to obsess

about cleaning the house perfectly, et cetera.

For me, the obsession is very much about the edit.

Yeah, I love how passionate you are about the stories

of the Haggadahs.

The first video I watched of yours about the Haggadah

actually was the emoji Haggadah,

which on first glance is like, oh, it's just a book of emojis.

But it's actually the way you break it down

and you've used visual aids in a very helpful way.

It shows how we can communicate instead of through language

through images, and that is so interesting.

Well, the emoji Haggadah is definitely a very unique

version of the Haggadah,

because it's written only with emojis.

And there's a lot of different ways,

the author, Martin Bodeck,

actually translated from English into emoji.

And we could get into that more if you want,

but yeah, like you said, the Haggadah is a very unique book

because there's a lot of Jewish writing,

Jews are often called the people of the book

because of the Torah and the Talmud and prayer books,

and there's basically no end to the amount

of Jewish books out there.

But the Haggadah is the only one that's not only illustrated

but consistently throughout hundreds of years,

and that's very rare.

Like sometimes you'll find, you know,

like a prayer book from 13th century Germany

that has a picture in it or something,

or like an illustrated McGillis scroll

from the Enlightenment era, whatever.

But they're very rare, they're very unique.

They're kind of one of a kind.

But Haggadah's on the other hand,

there's almost like a tradition that goes from century

to century from place to place.

And the Haggadahs that we have today,

like the illustrated Haggadahs I grew up with,

are also part of that tradition,

of not just having the book,

but having it illustrated in beautiful colors.

Yeah, to the point that they're Haggadahs in museums

that yeah, I really love your passion around that.

And I actually didn't realize that the Haggadah is the book

that like has exemplified illustrations

as a mode of preserving story and transmitting story.

In fact, the first Jewish illustrated manuscript

to ever be studied was a Haggadah in the 1890s.

And yeah, there's a whole fascinating story behind that.

But to your point, the Haggadah is kind of the icon

of historic Jewish illustration.

The book that you use to follow the Seder

to do the whole long Seder is Haggadah, obviously.

Until when did your family usually do the Seder?

It's a competition.

Oh my goodness, that was the one question I was not anticipating.

Every year we say, we're gonna eat that

for coming before it says, but that has yet to happen.

I don't know, usually around like 230 is the norm.

Yeah, I mean, it doesn't take that long

to actually read the Haggadah through,

but it never takes an hour.

It always takes the whole night.

Yeah, I don't know why it takes so long.

Well, you're eating.

Okay, let's do it.

Let's start our Seder, our bookish version of the Seder.

Where do we begin?

I guess we would take a step back before we even jump

into like the Seder itself and just explain briefly

what all of this is all about.

So in the Bible, we have the story of the Exodus,

you get the Ismets Reim, and this holiday commemorates

that event, which is the Israelites leaving Egypt

and going into the desert or seeing the Torah

and eventually into the Promised Land.

And so the meal is very symbolic.

It has symbolic foods.

There's a lot of singing.

There's prayers.

And of course, there's the actual retelling

of this story in great detail.

Haggadah opens, usually with a ritual of searching the house

for chummets, which is leaven product

where you're supposed to get rid of that.

And then it jumps into the steps of the meal.

The steps include Qadash, which is a blessing on wine,

which sanctifies the holiday.

It's kind of like the opening.

It sets the tone for what everything that comes next.

Then you have a couple of important symbolic rituals.

So they're called Orchats, which is the washing of the hands,

which is for ritual purity, not like with soap,

but like with a cup.

There's the dipping of vegetables.

There's like a bunch of different versions of this,

potatoes, parsley, and so on.

I'm curious, what is your family?

We actually didn't use potatoes.

We only used radishes.

Have you heard of that?

Yeah.

So for Passover, my family was extra stringent.

So we only used unwashed vegetables.

They were in the soil.

If you go to Williamsburg, you'll see they are selfies.

They're in the soil.

So imagine peeling radishes that are like still in the soil.

It was actually a job.

And so we didn't have so many.

I think I'm telling it correctly.

If my memory is off, I'm just humiliating myself.

And that's fine.

But we would dip the radish in salt water

and there weren't so many.

So it was really delicious.

And we were starving.

You know, the satyr starts after a full day

where you're scrunching to finish everything.

And then you nap and you put on your new clothing.

Did you put on new clothing Passover night?

You dressed up in new clothing.

Yes, I put on this shirt because I felt like it's

appropriate for the vibe.

The lure would be in the winter.

But this is the vibe of the clothing.

And you're so hungry after all the prayers.

And finally, you have this little bit of grape juice

and that little bit of radish.

But we never had potatoes.

I would have loved potatoes.

And it's always like, you're not supposed to eat a lot of it.

But everyone ends up eating a ton of potatoes.

And it's like, no, you can't eat it.

My family actually has an interesting ritual

that you put walnuts on the table.

And you can crack them and eat them before.

Because there are so many rituals in the Hagada

until you get to the eating part that the children

need to be distracted.

So there's a tradition of keeping uncracked walnuts.

And you can crack it.

And walnuts, I don't know.

Have you ever cracked a walnut, eaten an uncracked walnut?

OK, they actually are a little difficult to eat.

Because they're wrapped up in little pieces.

So you kind of have to think of a pomegranate, similar thing.

So we'd spend our time after carpas,

the matcha ones would crack the walnut in their palm.

The rest of us would do it in the mislokrache,

then nutcracker away.

But then we would get to eat a little bit of that.

But you're not supposed to fill up at all, just little nibbles.

Yeah, that's very interesting.

I heard about that ritual of having that to the satyr.

But no, we personally don't have that.

There's like the classic, I don't know what to call it.

It's like the classic joke that everyone is kind of obligated

to make, which is, oh, the satyr is so long.

Like, OK, we get it.

It's like mother-in-law jokes.

Like, we get it.

But it's kind of an obligation.

But that's where it comes from, the fact that the meal

is strategically placed towards the end

of this entire ceremony in order to basically make sure

that you're there for everything beforehand

to build up to the meal.

Because once you eat everybody's kind of passing out.

But leading up to that, we have the big stretch,

which is the retelling of the story of the Exodus,

which is the main portion of the Haggara

together with all these different rituals.

And even like side rituals, like you said,

with having nuts and keeping the children engaged.

A big part of the Haggara is a list of this satyr.

Kadesh, Urghats, Karpas, Yakhats.

Yakhats is when you break the matze.

And the maggot is the telling of the story.

So there is Kadesh, Urghats, Karpas, Yakhats,

which are minor rituals.

And then the meat of it is maggot, which I'm sure

we're going to talk about in a minute.

And then afterwards later comes the actual meal.

But like every child knows to sing Kha'adai,

Yakhats, Karpas, it knows the order of it.

But the Haggada, I believe, also documents the order, right?

Of the night.

I remember there'd be like a first page

with all of it in summary.

Can you talk about how these are documented?

Maybe show it to me?

Yeah, sure.

What's very interesting is that the list has always been there,

often just written in a couple of lines,

like not even as a column, but just one word after the other.

And these are pretty common, a lot of Haggadas

that we have today have kind of a grid of steps

and show us different pictures.

One example would be from the art school children's Haggada,

which looks something like this.

You could see the different steps that we've been talking about.

But what's interesting about this is that the first

Haggada to ever have this was the Venice Haggada from 1609.

This is just one of the steps from this Haggada

from 400 years ago.

You could see the step of eating the matza

and you could see the father on the left holding it up

and the other members of the satire sitting there

waiting anxiously to eat a little bit of that cracker.

Also, what's notable is that they're all wearing the clothing

of Italy in the 1600s.

So I guess take a step back.

There's really three ages that the Haggadas were created in.

The first is manuscripts, which means made by hand.

And those are all unique.

There's only one of each of those Haggadas.

Then there's the printing age where they would have

metal letters and often woodcut illustrations.

So this is an example of that.

The letters here are all made out of metal,

but the pictures were carved into wood.

And then stamped.

They were formatted as part of the page

and then ink rolled over the whole thing

and then exactly stamped onto the paper

and then eventually bound into a book.

But what this means is that you're able to have

many editions of the same Haggada

and that way it can spread much more around the world.

So once we get into the printing age,

you really have, I don't know about the word viral,

but I guess influential Haggadas.

So the Venice is one of them.

That's very influential into 1600s

and then comes another one, the Amsterdam Haggada,

which is from 1695, the first edition.

And that becomes super influential in the 17 and 1800s,

even all the way to like early Maxwell House Haggadas.

The Amsterdam Haggada also preserved the grid

of showing us all the different steps of the Seder.

And many Haggadas today will have a similar grid

that shows us all the different steps,

except in the Venice, they're dressed like people

in Italy in the 1600s in Amsterdam.

They look very distinctly like they're from the Netherlands

in the late 1600s, 1700s.

And then you get to, let's say the art school children,

they look like people from the 20th century.

So again, we could see how each generation also preserves

the way they look.

And again, they're like you mentioned before,

they're all dressed up in honor of this big meal.

So what else do we have of Karaj Erhats, Karpa Sandiakhats?

Is there any interesting illustrations

before we get to the telling of the story of the Haggada?

Those are really the symbols, the icons of the Seder.

And that you'll see in a lot of Haggadas preserved.

So the wine, the matzah, and the horse radish,

and kind of as a side character is also the vegetables

as dipped into salt water called karpas.

But the first three are really the icons

because of what they represent.

So the matzah represents this duality, I guess,

of oppression and redemption.

The oppression is that the matzah was eaten by the sleeves.

It's a very basic form of sustenance,

just flour and water baked into a cracker.

And then you also have mara, which is bitter herbs.

Our family uses horse radish.

People also use other types of bitter herbs.

You could use wasabi or something

to give you that sense of something

that's spicier, bitter.

And it represents the bitterness of enslavement.

And then the wine represents the idea of redemption,

being freed, and it's supposed to symbolize royalty

and how we've come from the lowest of lows

to the highest of heights.

And so that's why they're very symbolic.

And you could see that represented throughout history.

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One of my favorites is the Washington, Haggata,

with a man pouring wine into a goblet.

And this is next to the area you could see

on the side, it says Manishtana, halalahazeh.

And the reason why it's next to Manishtana

is because at this point,

you finished drinking the first cup of wine,

which is kiddish, the opening sanctification.

And now you're getting to the second cup,

which is therefore the entire duration of the story

of the Exodus.

We do a little rituals with it.

You pour a little bit of it out at certain moments

and you raise it at certain moments and things like that.

So this picture, the artist drew a man pouring up

a cup at the point where you're supposed to fill up your cup.

Out of the four cups, we should say.

There are a total of four cups for the night.

Yeah, there's four cups.

Again, it also symbolizes the idea of redemption

because there's four lishinus of gula.

There's four expressions of redemption

that are mentioned in the passage in Exodus.

And so again, it becomes highly symbolized

that there's a lot of four in the Haggata,

there's four cups, there's four sons, four questions.

And so on.

I didn't realize.

So let's talk about Magid.

By the way, to digress for a second.

In the city community, the rituals

are performed with a children reciting for each semen in Yiddish

like a couple of lines of instruction.

So for instance, Kadaish, which is the first one,

the blessing of the wine, sanctifying the night.

He said, Kadaish, when the tattakim,

tahaim, pinshiel, tataish, the choon, de vas,

the kittel, and a machch na al-kiddish,

kadaid, kadaid, kidd, a rsonch, anstofen.

And it means, Kadaish, when dad comes home from shooly,

puts on the white kittel, he blesses the wine quickly.

So the small children.

So the young children don't fall asleep.

I mean, does anyone actually do that?

Do they really think of the young children

not falling asleep and rushed through the night?

No.

It's dragged out and everyone's sleeping by the air

or the children are sleeping by the end.

But the lines we all knew how to say from a young gauge

by heart, did you have anything comparable to that?

It's like the instructions are recited like a chant.

It's not really.

We sang the song of the steps, like Kadaish, Orchats,

Carvas, yaha, and pretty much jumped right into it.

But what I will say is interesting

is that many Hagadas, especially the middle section,

the printed Hagadas from, let's say, the 1400s to the 1900s,

they started to have explanations

about what should happen during the satire

in the local languages.

And so one of those languages, obviously Yiddish,

would also have those type of instructions.

My Yiddish is not great.

I don't really speak Yiddish or can read it.

But other Hagadas, like I'm thinking right now,

of the Prague Hagada, I believe, or other such Hagadas,

they have this instruction as kind of part of the Hagadas.

So it opens, and it shows a man with a candle

searching his home for chhmets, for 11 product,

and it says next to it, that on the 14th of Nissan,

you have to check your home.

And then underneath it, it says,

you know, Kishemachnissen basic neses,

like when you come home from synagogue,

you should, along the lines of what you're saying,

that exactly like start the meal process

by making Kiddish the blessing of wine.

And it's in Hebrew.

I remember it because it's in Hebrew

because I can actually read and understand.

I see, I see, wow.

Yeah, that's interesting.

Because now that we're talking about Hagadas,

I believe that Hagadas of my childhood

were very heavy on instruction in Yiddish.

And what's interesting is I didn't learn Hebrew

unlike you, we didn't learn Hebrew.

And so almost always when we're davening,

when we're looking at books, I wouldn't understand them.

Like Rosh Hashanah, Yim Kippur,

we would be sitting hours and hours over books

and I wouldn't understand them.

The Hagada is an absolute exception in that regard

because it was very Yiddish heavy.

We could read it.

And there's a lot of instructions,

including the things I recited the chance.

That is very interesting.

And you could definitely see that throughout history.

There's a Hagada from Venice in the mid 1600s.

I forget exactly what eras from.

And it has the steps of the satyr written in three columns.

So on the top line, it's just all the steps,

cut the shortcuts till the end, till near it's up.

And then there's three columns written

in three different languages explained to the reader.

And it was made for the Venice ghetto.

And what's really interesting about that is the ghetto

was an area in Venice,

was actually the first one of its kind in Europe.

And Jews were only allowed to live in this area.

And you have refugees from across Europe,

from Spain, from Germany, from Eastern Europe,

and then native Italian Jews.

And they're all living together,

but they don't speak the same language.

Don't even language they have in common

is classical biblical Hebrew.

And so the Hagada has these three columns.

The first one is called Lush and Laws,

which just means the local language, which is Italian.

And the second one is called Lush and Svard,

which is Spanish or Ladino.

And then the third column is Lush and Ashkenaz,

which means German, also known as Yiddish.

And the thing is that they're all written in Hebrew characters.

So it appears as if it's Hebrew,

but they're all different languages.

So I can only read the Hebrew part of it,

like the part that says Kadesh.

But what it actually says after it, I don't know.

I guess you'd have to take a look at it.

Yeah, that's so interesting.

You can actually read it.

Let's dive into Mugged.

What happens at Mugged?

Mugged comes from the same word as Hagada,

which means to tell.

And this is really where we dive into the story of the Exodus.

The key part of the story is about how Jacob descends

into Egypt with his family.

They get enslaved there for hundreds of years.

Their lives are embittered as they're enslaved.

And then God redeems them, brings the 10 plagues.

There's the moment where they leave the Exodus

and then the retzius split, they go through it.

And then that's kind of where the story ends in the Hagada.

And then loosely, we have, they arrive to the Promised Land

at some point in the future.

And they live happily ever after.

That's kind of the framing of the story.

But there's more to it than Mugged.

That's kind of like the heart of Mugged.

That's the center.

But leading up to it, you also have other rituals

in order to engage the young ones, the children.

And particularly, you have the four questions,

which is basically noticing, it's very formulaic,

because you're supposed to say it a certain way.

But it's noticing how there's a lot of things

that are strange about this meal that we just went through

explaining how we're dipping vegetables into salt water,

how we're eating flatbread.

And we had to spend weeks and weeks cleaning our house

and getting rid of bread and some people for beans

and covering everything in foil.

Like what's going on with that?

And just noticing all of these strange things.

And this is built into the Hagada as a way to get,

to build intrigue with our audience, the family,

particularly the young ones.

And exactly.

And a lot of this has to do with the intergenerational aspect

of the Hagada, which is also a big theme.

And the simple meaning is that the father,

or the head of the household, tells the children

about the story, the way that his father told him,

and so on all the way back to the original event.

But also, there's the element that the oppression of Egypt

also repeats itself in every generation.

But the redemption of Egypt also happens in every generation.

So even though we might be facing problems,

and we kind of arrive at the satire with all the problems

of our day, the message is that nonetheless,

there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

There's something beyond the horizon that will be better.

And this is comedy and the phrase of,

this year we're here, next year we'll be in Jerusalem.

Or this year, we're slaves, next year we'll be free.

This idea, not just applying to the story of the Exodus

itself, but also to every generation us included.

And that's also the message of Margaret as well.

So how is that told?

Like can you show us different interesting images?

I would love to.

Or Hagada.

Yeah, okay, please.

There's two Hagadas that I grew up with that kind of represent

what modern Hagadas mean to me personally.

And they really capture a lot of this.

So first one is the Kat's Hagada.

It has these beautiful illustrations

and the first one I'm showing is of the enslavement in Egypt.

This is a visual that often comes up of enslavement

of crying out to God.

And the image that's paired with that

is the Exodus from Egypt, the moment where they leave.

And this Hagada is beautiful made by Gotti Pollock,

the illustrations and yeah, just it really brings it to life.

I remember as a kid like feeling like I'm falling

into these images, it's there at it for hours.

And this one I used when I was a little bit younger

called the Art School of Children's Hagada.

Illustrated by two of the cats.

And again, you could see the images

from the Exodus story itself.

You're showing the Egyptians drowning in the Red Sea

while the Israelites are crossing.

You also see the rituals of the Seder as well.

So here is them searching and burning the left and bread.

But you also see people sitting at the Seder doing

all the rituals you spoke about.

Oh, here are the Samanim.

Exactly.

It has the icons of the goblet of wine,

the icons of the moths on the bitter herbs and so on.

So these really capture the elements of the Seder.

But they come up in a lot of other Hagadas.

So this Hagada is called the Sarajevo Hagada,

named after the city where it's located today

and it's belonged to Sarajevo for the past 130 years or so.

So it was made in Spain in the 1300s.

And what's unique about it is that the text

of the Hagada is illuminated.

It has some interesting pictures next to it,

but not really illustrated inside the Hagada.

It has something called a biblical cycle,

which is a section in front of the Hagada

that is just illustration.

It's kind of like a medieval comic strip in a sense

where it's just frames on each page

that show us illustrations of biblical stories.

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So the Hagada focuses very narrowly on the Exodus proper,

but the Sarajevo Hagada shows us the entire narrative,

starting all the way from creation,

which you can see over here, all the way on the right.

We have the spirit of God floating on the water.

We have day and night and so on.

All the way till we have trees, animals and so on.

And then you could see an image all the way on the left

of a man resting on Sabbath, on Shabbos.

And again, he's dressed in the style of Jews

in the 1300s in Spain.

So again, it's capturing that moment in time.

Looks like a woman to me.

Because of the head covering, yeah.

Similarly in this image of Moses and Aaron on the right here

and Pharaoh on the left, Moses and Aaron also have their heads

covered in a similar fashion.

Yeah.

I see what you mean.

And maybe that was the clothing of the time

that the men covered their heads.

Exactly.

Yeah.

This was how Jewish men in Spain would dress

and cover their heads.

You could see Pharaoh on the left does not look like

what we think of as Pharaoh.

He looks very much like a Spanish king in the 1300s.

Because the idea of illustrating the Exodus story

like it would have looked based on archaeology

is a very recent innovation.

Basically, once archaeology became a very mainstream

in the early 1900s, like with the finding of King Tut

and things like that.

But before then, it was always illustrated based

on how it looked then.

But this illustration of Moses and Aaron with Pharaohs,

again, the Exodus story where they come to confront him,

tell him, let my people go.

And then this image also is of the Exodus

again, you could see the head coverings.

And they're leaving Egypt, which looks like a castle

with swords.

Ah, yes.

The person in the green token in the back is what?

I'm not sure exactly what character it is.

It's probably just like a generic Egyptian saying,

you know, good riddance, get out of here.

We had a couple of plagues.

I see.

Be off with you.

I see.

But you pointed out the sword.

And I'll point out a few other details.

So, um, Spanish, how God is in particular,

really liked to do a very literal take on the words of

the story of the Exodus.

So there's a few details.

You mentioned the swords.

There's also dough on the shoulders that they're holding,

little round pieces of dough.

And also you'll notice that their hands are raised in the air.

And this has to do with a few elements of the Exodus story.

So the first is that the reason why we,

not so we mentioned is two reasons,

the redemptive element is that they had to leave so fast

that they didn't have a chance for the dough to rise.

And so we eat flat bread instead.

So that's what that element represents.

The swords represents the word in the plastic that says that

they left chameuxim, which could be translated as armed.

And then the hands in the air is because the verse says,

we've been as well.

Yates in Biyad Rama, which means they left with an upper hand.

Now usually that means that they left on a high.

They were triumphant.

You know, they were the winners in this story.

But the artist takes it literally and says,

no, no, they went out with an upper hand.

Like their hand was raised in the air.

And again, it's symbolizing the redemption,

but it's very literal and how it does it.

These are not woodcuts, right?

Are they?

No.

This is a manuscript, which means hand drawn.

So it's made on parchment.

Woodcuts are always going to be one color.

Woodcuts, which come later during the printing age,

would be one color because of they'll be printed in black.

But then a lot of times they would be given to an artist

who would then hand paint the details back in.

And that was still very popular up until we get color printing

in the modern era.

So you'll have many additions of the illustration,

but variations on how they were colored.

Oh, interesting.

So this is a manuscript.

Yeah, this is a manuscript from Spain, which means it's a one of one.

This one's called the Golden Haggara.

So I was just showing you images from the Sarajevo.

This is golden.

It's called golden because of the gold leaf on the background

of all these illustrations.

Here's another one.

You see all the gold on the background.

But again, you see how they're going out.

They're all holding little pieces of dough.

And they all have their hands raised in the air.

And this time you could see Farah with his crown in the background.

Like, you know, get out of here or come back.

No initially tells them to get out of here.

But then he starts to chase them.

He chases after them.

Exactly.

This Haggara is also from the same time period, 1300s from Germany.

And you could see Moses all the way on the left leading them out.

And you could see them holding little pieces of dough,

which are then on their shoulders.

Why are they birds?

Very good question.

I was waiting for you to ask that.

So this is called the birds head Haggara.

Very obviously why.

So we don't know why they have birds heads.

We have hypotheses about why there's two basic explanations.

The first one is that there were certain communities in Germany

that were very stringent at the time,

not to depict human forms in order to avoid what's called a graven image,

which is the second of the Ten Commandments.

You can't basically create a sculpted image

or any representation of nature or humans and things like that.

The thing is that we don't know if that's for sure the reason why

the artist drew it this way.

This is just our best guess.

And the problem is also that in this very illustration,

I'm showing you now on the other side of it,

you have Pharaoh chasing after them with his army.

Pharaoh is drawn without a bird's head.

So if the reason is scared to represent human forms,

it's not very consistent because there are human forms.

There's also other Ashkenazi manuscripts from the same time

that have human forms.

The Sephardic manuscripts I just showed you from Spain have human forms

from the same time.

So he the artist may have been trying to avoid this prohibition,

but we don't know and it's not 100% certain.

The other explanation which I personally resonates with me a lot better

is that the artist is trying to basically

use engagement strategy.

So we mentioned before about intrigue about doing all these strange rituals,

getting the kids to ask, giving out nuts at the satire,

the four questions.

What we're really trying to do is get people interested into the story.

And so this is why we have illustrations to begin with.

And the artist takes it a step further and draws them in a surrealist,

fantastical style that you don't normally see humans with bird's heads.

And that's like, wait, what's going on here?

And it keeps you looking at it.

It keeps people engaged while looking at the satire.

And that you can see in a lot of Hagadas where they draw very fantastical creatures,

like this one.

This one is also Spanish from the 1300s.

There's like a random bird here.

There's like a dog coming out of a bird's leg.

Oh wow.

There's a human with a bird body.

This Hagada in particular has birds with human heads,

the Prado Hagada from Spain.

And it's using these bright colors, the gold, the very beautiful illumination.

All of it is there to attract your attention and keep it on the Hagada.

Because as we said, it's a very long stretch from this point until we actually eat and can relax.

What else happened during Magadude?

You asked the four questions, which traditionally the children ask in various languages.

And you tell the story of leaving Egypt, which we have seen illustrated in various ways.

You want to show us other illustrations of this story or you want to talk about different parts of Magadude?

I'll just show you a little bit more about the birds had Hagada.

You could also see how they're baking Mata, but it's not in Egypt.

This is in Germany at the time.

And you could see how the women have the head coverings.

The men have their own hats and they're preparing Mata.

I'll just show you this other Hagada that I started with, which is the Washington Hagada.

So this is from the Renaissance in the late 1400s.

It's called the Washington Hagada because it's in the Library of Congress is who owns the original.

So it's named after the city.

And this is on the opening page.

And you can see, if you look over on the right, you see the list.

And those are the steps that we were talking about here.

They're just written as a few lines.

But on the left, you see a man searching his house for 11 product for hummets.

And on the other side of this page, there's also a man burning it in a fire.

And he's using these bellows in order to keep the fire going.

And throughout it, we also see like I showed you the man pouring wine when it's time for the wine.

This Hagada loves to do that like when it's time to drink the wine.

It shows a man in Italy in the late 1400s with a big goblet about to drink it.

A few pages before it's time for the meal.

It shows a few women roasting meat over a fire showing how like the preparations for the food are underway.

And we're about to get into the food part.

But another really interesting element that appears.

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I don't know if it's for the first time but one of the earliest examples are...

Let's call them images of redemption or messianic images.

And that's because as we mentioned, the Haggata isn't just about the story of Exodus itself,

but it kind of takes a story of the Exodus and it stretches it to every generation,

including our own generation for each one, no matter what time we're in.

And so this Haggata made in 1478.

You can see there's this verse that says,

Which means from the constraint I've called to God and He answered me with expansion.

But what's unique is that the word Maitsar shares the same root with the word Egypt in Hebrew, Maitsrayim.

Which means that Egypt is not just a place, it's a concept.

And that, like we're saying, the same way they were redeemed in Egypt,

there also we can also be redeemed.

And again, it's showing a very literal depiction of what Maitsar is.

It's not Egypt, but it's a Germanic castle with a man trapped in it.

So he's constrained to the castle.

And possibly this is referring to King David or whoever wrote the Psalm.

On another page, we see the image of Messiah coming into a very similar Germanic city,

riding on the donkey, which again, despite what you may believe religiously,

meaning of it, the symbolism behind this visual is of redemption in our times,

not just Egypt, but extending that to today.

It's interesting.

I have a couple of thoughts.

First of all, one of the interesting things, one thing I want to point out,

and I might say, Garcia, call, I guess you're supposed to say,

is a very beautiful song.

At some point in my get, once you get past a lot of drag,

you start to sing songs.

And that gets a lot nice.

Like the time goes by more, more pleasantly, if you will.

One of the interesting things that I saw in the illustrations is the men

who is conducting the sater is not wearing a white kittel.

Is the white kittel an Ashkenazi, like contemporary visual?

I actually don't know.

Wow, I don't know anything about that.

I did feel like whatever he was wearing was a better idea if you're going to drink four cups of wine.

That's very true.

Isn't that pretty?

Red tights, red hat?

That's interesting.

I wonder if this is just the illustration,

and he didn't just want to do a white shirt or like a white coat

because it would just be prettier to do a darker color,

or if this is based on reality.

And I'm not really sure where that custom comes from.

Today, like my family, I'm sure your family,

the father who leads the sater wears like a white coat or like a robe

to symbolize the reverence that we have for the sater.

Like this is a big deal and also add to the level of intrigue,

of the symbolism, the drama of this whole dinner.

I really like the illustrations on this one.

Mashiach arriving, it looks very different from...

Like the Messianic element is how you call it.

Mashiach who's arriving on the donkey.

This is a big part of the Passover night, I think, a theme.

The idea of redemption that is brought by this mystical,

sagely man, and it's such a big part of it

because it's a night that Elioa Novi visits.

He is like, I think the incarnate of Mashiach is he?

I don't even know what the traditions around him are.

Elioa Novi, you could see in this image from the Venice Haggara,

which we talked about pioneered the steps of the sater,

it also took this image of Mashiach and ran with it.

So, all the way on the bottom left, you could see, again,

the same image of Mashiach on the donkey,

but in front of him is what you're saying,

Elioa Novi, or Elijah the Prophet,

he's supposed to announce the arrival of the Mashiach

and you could see he's blowing a horn or a chauffeur.

He's passing in front of a city which is labeled at the bottom

as your Shalaiim Jerusalem,

and you'll notice in the center of it is actually the Dome of the Rock,

which is a stand-in for the temple,

because before the modern period,

there wasn't really a lot of depictions of what the temple,

like we think of the Basin Miktajah as Herod's Temple,

what that would have looked like,

that again is also a more modern innovation,

where in Haggara's from 1900s and 2000s,

we'll have more of an image in line with what we think of traditionally,

but back then, especially after the Age of Crusaders,

where that visual made its way over to Europe,

a lot of Haggara's especially in Venice

would use the Dome of the Rock to depict the Basin Miktaj,

but to your point about Elioa Novi,

yeah, he also goes part and parcel with this Messianic image.

This one looks a lot more like what we were exposed to,

like the one that you're showing us now, the Venice Haggara,

like that's very familiar to me.

There's a similar moment in a Haggara also from the 1560s,

called the Mantua Haggara, also from Italy,

so very similar time and place to this,

and it has also an image of Man on the Dunkey, Messiah,

next to Elijah the Prophet,

blowing the horn, the chauffeur,

and on top of it, it says the word Schweich,

which is this moment where you're supposed to open the door

and let Elijah in to your home,

and you actually pour a whole goblet of wine

that nobody drinks from.

Well, he drinks from it.

I don't know about you, but we'd always like look at the top.

You're like, oh, it moved, there's a breeze.

Exactly.

Meanwhile, someone's like shoving the table.

Yeah, whatever.

Did you hear the idea that if you've been good,

then you see him?

Not really, no.

Sounds a little Santa Claus, doesn't it?

It's kind of like Santa Claus.

If you were good, you get to get, yeah.

We grew up with that.

Like, you really wanted to make Pysod Ignisely,

because then you'll see Elijah the Prophet,

and when I was a kid, I have a very distinct memory.

We'd open the door, and we'd wait.

Will I see him finally?

And nothing.

And I was always convinced my mother saw him.

So I say, mommy, did you see him?

And that was just all the proof I needed that she was seeing him.

There was a lot of intrigue,

but not the level that some people have,

like in my mother's childhood,

the neighbor came in with a white sheet over his head

when they opened the door for Elijah the Prophet.

Oh, my goodness.

Because it's that moment where you open the door

for the whole world.

Like, the door stays open for a little bit, right?

We opened our front door, like, to the street.

And we said,

welcome, welcome, Elijah the Prophet,

with the door wide open.

It's the moment of bringing the redemption into our home,

into this moment in time,

not just the moments in history,

or the moments in the Bible,

but like grounding it in our day, in our space.

Yeah, it's very powerful.

Okay, what else do we have from Mugget?

Because I'm starting to get hungry.

I'm seeing in my mind chicken soup

with like egg noodles.

I'm starting to feel like I'm going to get it.

Yeah, I was going to say Motsubal,

but I guess not, right?

Because that's Gibrax.

That's Gibrax.

Yeah.

That basically covers in terms of like the illustrations

inside the Haggata for the most part.

I would say one of the most interesting illustrations

that stuck out to me that I did not expect

was how the four sons are depicted throughout history.

So when I was growing up,

my dad had a Haggata that had an image very similar to this one.

Have you ever seen this image before?

No, I have not.

Okay.

So to me, I saw this and I instantly recognized it

because the Haggata he had,

it's actually Hebrew and Russian.

And it had like a huge hodgepodge of pictures,

like some of them were from historic manuscripts and prints

and some of them were just like from coloring books

or like random photographs.

But it had this image in it.

So the four sons are the four kinds of people

who attend the Seder.

The one on the right is the Y Sun

who asks deep meaningful questions.

The next one is the Wicked Sun

who is against the whole idea

and he must be rebutted like you have to disprove his claims.

Then there's the simple Sun who asks surface level questions

and the one who doesn't ask questions at all all the way on the left

and here he's depicted as a little child who can't ask it.

But what's interesting is that the Wicked Sun

has always been depicted as a soldier.

And you can see here how he's depicted as a Roman soldier.

This is from the Amsterdam Haggata from the end of the 1600s,

1695.

But throughout history he's been depicted that way.

I'll show you an example very early on from the Prado Haggata,

for example, has him as a soldier.

But that one's from Spain and the 1300s.

So he looks like a Spanish soldier.

Then you have one from the Washington Haggata which I showed you.

There he looks different.

He's more Germanic.

All the different Haggatas.

And then you get to something like the Maxwell House Haggata.

They did an addition called the Deluxe Edition from the early 60s.

And it kind of defined the 60s and 70s and 80s of the Maxwell House Haggata.

In there they did a lot more abstract illustration.

And again, you see the wife's son is depicted as a scroll.

And the Wicked Sun as a pair of daggers.

And he's always depicted as a mortal threat.

And even in the children's Haggata I grew up with,

the most striking feature about him is the fact that he has his tongue out.

And he's kind of like in this rebellious pose.

Like, I don't care what you have to say about me.

Like that's what he's conveying.

But in his back pocket, he has a slingshot.

And he has a leash on like a ferocious dog.

So again, the symbolism of him being a physical threat is constantly present.

That's something that I didn't expect to find.

But as I went through all these historic additions,

you just see example after example after example.

This is nothing to do with the words of the Haggata itself.

Like the goddess and say the Wicked Sun is a threat.

This is an artistic representation that has remained and been maintained over the centuries

from all different countries from all different times.

And so to me that also spoke to like the more meta elements of this entire journey I went on.

Which is like we've been discussing the practical element of the sater, the story, the rituals, the songs.

But there's also an additional level of the art itself.

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A few years ago, but this is a really good example of it.

It's really fast named because it really tracks with what we stereotypically identify with Jewish values in most cultures.

A warrior is an icon of valor and virtue.

It's a part of what gave birth to Zionism, which was Zionism was the root bellion against against denigrating the warrior right.

So it's really interesting to see in my own childhood also the evil character was one with weapons.

So like the eights or her in the old made card game had a big giant weapon also in his pocket.

So it's like the bad card. You don't want has a weapon like there are so much criticism of all the trustees that happened to Jews in Europe and that we didn't organize and now Israel people see is like being something that we won't replicate.

that helplessness that is born out of such a deep value of avoiding weaponry and violence,

which I think can be seen in the idea that illustration of the Ruchil Chochum in this picture,

for instance, that you have, he doesn't have any weapons.

For me, these illustrations reflect deep-seated cultural values, and they're not without

vices and virtues, of course, and they're not without complications.

For me, it makes me think, is this the representation of a very strong Jewish orientation of denigrating

the fighter that's captured here?

There's definitely an element of that, for sure.

Because it's funny, because you see it, I hear you seeing it differently.

You see it as a mortal threat.

The reason he is bad is not because he has weapons per se, but because he's a threat

to people.

In a lot of places, especially in medieval Europe, as you were saying, Jews were incredibly

oppressed from basically every aspect of their life.

And one of them, like we mentioned with the Venice ghetto where they had to live in a certain

area, they had to wear certain badges, identifying them as Jews, which put them as a separate

class of people.

And then part of that was also a restriction on owning weapons, which, again, was supposed

to subdue them, and make sure that, kind of like in the story of Egypt, they enslave

him.

Make sure that the Israelites don't rise up and take over.

And this kind of came from a similar motivation in order to get that right to have weapons,

one had to basically renounce their Judaism and become a convert to Christianity, become

an apostate.

And so the Haggata says that the wicked son, Kafa Bikar, he denied the core values, meaning

he is an apostate.

And so how do you represent that visually?

So in the children's Haggata that I grew up with, it's represented with an expression,

but that's a very recent thing.

Normally, it was represented with aggression.

And I like what you're saying also that it doesn't have to be for strictly historical

reasons.

It could also be to try to give you like a moral to the illustration, which is that you

see how violence or aggression or just being armed can sometimes be equated with apostasy

itself.

And I think ultimately Jews, because we weren't historically able to have weapons, came

to associate weapons with non-Jews.

And so this represents the non-Jew or not the Jew, and that also then becomes another

element in the negative connotations with weaponry, even if it's for self-defense.

So if we're good and for bad weaponry becomes something that's seen as bad.

Exactly.

That's so much story in one historical imagery.

Now you're getting why I've obsessed about this for a number of years, and I think I'll

continue to obsess about it.

And one final piece I'll add to this, very interestingly, there's a Haggata from the

late 30s called the Arthur Schick Haggata.

And he Arthur Schick himself was from Poland, but he made it out into London, and he published

a Haggata in 1940.

So while London is being bombed, he published a Haggata, and the wicked son there is depicted

initially he had a swastika arm band, and he eventually repainted that image and took

out the swastika, because he didn't want to get the book into too much controversy.

You could see how the sun, he's wearing German clothing, and he looks resembles the dictator

of Germany at the time, and again, it represents this idea that the wicked son is a threat.

So even though in that image, he's not exactly armed, but he looks very much like the ideology

at the time that was posing a mortal threat.

He looks like a fighter, an army officer, essentially someone in the military to me, or

maybe a noble person.

You can contrast him with what the wise son looks like on the other side, which is more

like a traditionalist image, maybe even chacitic to some extent, like contrast that with the

wicked son, that's not only dressed modern, but specifically aligned with a very anti-Jewish

ideology.

I'm actually curious, did you have, which, was there a particular addition on the Haggata

that you grew up with that kind of represents your childhood experience at the Seder?

Oh, I have to say, I'm super embarrassed that once I got into this interview, I was like,

I should have looked for a Hasidic Haggata first.

I do believe I might have some, because I do tend to collect stuff.

I just want to show you, because it's really interesting what you're saying about the

illustration of the Haggata like in Spain as Spanish people dressed, because this is

how I grew up.

This is a particularly interesting to me children's book on the story of Exodus.

You can see here, the Jews are enslaved, and you can see also that they look like the

people of today, and like you said, the idea of archaeologically informed illustrations

is a very modern view of history, of time.

This is how I find this really an interesting compliment to what you have shown us.

This is the story with a hands up, see, and they're leaving, see.

That is crazy.

I just got chills.

That's amazing.

Wow.

Yeah, this really compliments the story.

What I love about what you're showing me is that it's so easy for contemporary people

to see how the Hasidic community tells stories and be dismissive, and be like, oh, they're

so backwards.

But the truth is, if you look at it with the eyes of how history has evolved and how people

have usually made sense and made meaning, it totally makes sense, and it's like a beautiful

part of the way you learned, the way I learned it, all of these visuals together make up

so many different perspectives that are captured.

I'm glad you went and found that.

That was really cool.

So wow, this is incredibly fun.

So what happens after, so essentially you're reciting these verses and looking at these

images in the sater, and you start with Manistana, the questions, and you go on to reciting

the story and the memories we were in Egypt.

Mugged ends with Halal, with praising God in beautiful songs.

Yes, we get to the end of the story, and then we get to the redemption, and then we get

to Halal, which is saying some Psalms or singing, I should say, Psalms and thanks to God

for the redemption, and then comes more symbolic foods.

So this is where we actually eat the matza first.

We wash our hands again, we eat the matza, we eat the bitter herbs.

We like to add chorosis, which is kind of like an apple and wine, jam, fruit salad type

concoction.

It's supposed to take away from the bitterness of the horse radish, but it also represents

the mortar, the Israelites were building cities for the Egyptians, and so the chorosis,

this jam represents the mortar used to build those cities.

And then finally you get to the meal, you know, like you said, chicken soup, whatever,

the main course.

And then it ends off with eating more matza, called Afikomen.

And this is where we kind of take a turn into the symbolic elements of redemption, particularly

ground to get in nowadays.

So we have the grace after meals, which is the next step in that we also have certain

passages that talk about Harachemani Zakenu, Lemais Hamashia, like we should make it to

the days of Messiah.

We then have the opening of the door for Elijah.

You have more Psalms, which include the one, like we said, about constraint and expansion.

And then you finally get to Nierza, which is the ending of the satyr itself.

And it opens with the statement that next year in Jerusalem.

So it's kind of like the culmination of the redemptive stage of the satyr.

And then that final piece includes a lot of songs and poems that come out of the

middle ages in Europe, particularly from the world of Ashkenaz.

One that everyone's familiar with is, of course, Khadgadja, which is the one little goat.

It's like this whole chain of events.

And it's like the Jewish version of the little lady of Swalda fly, and it just keeps going

and going.

So God has to come down and say, guys, cut this out.

It's enough.

Khadgadja.

Khadgadja.

And I think as a result, when you say Khadgadja, it's come to be associated with like, alright,

it's enough, right?

Yeah, we're done.

It's interesting.

What's visually important, Khadgadja, and what's emotionally important in the order of

the night, for instance, one of the most famous parts of the satyr is the Afikomen, which

you mentioned, which is you break Amata and you hide a half of it and the children steal

it.

And then you bargain with them to get it back.

And you say, what can I do to get it back?

The children will make a line like, that's how it was at my father's table.

They stand there in line and one by one, they say, we'll give it back if you give me

a new bike, if you give me a new pocketbook or backpack.

And then my father would say, I don't know, that's totally unfair.

That's like too much.

And then after a period of bargain, you said, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine.

And you'd give back the, the Mata, the Afikomen was like the highlight for children.

And really the purpose of the Afikomen, it comes after my kid is to get the children

intrigued enough to stay until the end.

But I don't think that has an important role in the visual illustrations of the Haggata.

I don't think that's really illustrated anywhere, honestly.

Yeah.

And I think you're right that it's about keeping the intrigue.

And like if you can make it to the end, you'll basically earn a price.

It's, it's really interesting the way the night has these different pieces and these

different elements.

And by the end, when you get to Khadgadja, like children are sleeping under the table,

they're sleeping in bed, everyone is tired.

And you're going through these long, but there's a lot of reciting, the whole night there's

a lot of reciting.

In our satyrs, we would end the satyr, whoever was still awake would say the last chance,

which was Nierza.

Nierza was the Tiddi al-Azakhn is bavillig by the Ibištid.

Nierza, whoever does all these things is like in God's good graces.

So yeah, it's like a nice, like, epilogue, like, final sentence.

The most, the most beautiful part of the ending of the satyr is really singing Laxana

Habba.

May we be redeemed next year because it ends on such an uplifting note.

Yes, we remember our suffering.

And yes, we remember the past and enslavement, but if you make it through a long night of

being hungry and all these rituals, then we're feeling good and looking up.

I like that.

Well, thank you so much, David.

I really enjoy talking to you about this.

Absolutely.

I'm looking forward to watching your movie.

I did get, luckily, a sneak peek.

It was very beautiful.

Yeah, thank you.

It's very beautiful.

It's very clear.

You put a lot into it, a lot of heart and time.

When's it coming out?

Hopefully it should already be out when people are seeing this.

You can go check it out on my channel, Yiddish kite or at underscore Yiddish kite.

It's up there.

You can go check it out in the film.

It's broken into six sections where I go to six different locations together with my

friend, Mayor Chamowitz.

And we film all of these moments of the Haggara up close.

So we get manuscripts from Spain, Germany, the Renaissance.

Then we go to the printing age, Gutenberg, Venice, Prague, Amsterdam.

And then we get to the modern age, we get to Maxwell House.

So we go to Hoboken, which is where Maxwell House used to have a coffee factory, which

is where the Maxwell House I got to first started.

And then we wrap everything up at the Metropolitan Museum of Art.

We actually look at some Egyptian artifacts.

And we see how like modern Haggara's are inspired by archaeology, but still maintaining

the themes of the illustrations that go back to all the Haggara's throughout history.

Wow.

Very beautiful.

We're going schluffin already, David.

So we're going to leave it for people to watch it on your channel.

Fantastic.

I really appreciate you chatting with me.

And also I want to thank all the viewers and the podcast listeners as well.

Thank you.

And good night.

It is Ryan C. Crest here.

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