Fuel panic, the manosphere and the truth about Banksy

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Jesse sometimes feel you wake up in the morning and it's like,

what should I be like most worried about today?

You know, I woke up this morning actually at 3am.

And I remember that I had to be worried about something

because I couldn't remember what it was.

I know I'm worried.

I saw this thing on Instagram with this guy goes,

whoo, really great time to have like an anxiety disorder.

A love of history and a compulsive need to stay informed.

I know they're all very much related.

What's giving me today?

So to add to this general concern, Jesse,

or maybe detract from it,

we're going to talk about,

do we need to be worried about fuel?

Do we need to be worried or how worried about the manosphere?

Exactly.

And what does a straight-of-him-moo's have to do with toxic men

and the slice of bread?

Turns out quite a lot.

Stay tuned to find out.

I'm Julia Baird.

And I'm Jerry Fernandez.

And Sydney on Gadigal Land,

and this is not stupid,

where we discuss the news and your feeds

and the stuff that's grabbing our attention.

Jesse, all right.

We're going to talk about Louis Thoreau's manosphere,

which I've seen at television correspondent,

he had a report back,

although I honestly feel a bit bad talking about

married at first sight last week.

Really?

You have no regrets.

I actually am.

It's been an absolutely unwatchable list.

It's so bad and so mean and so stupid.

If anyone turned on because of me,

you have my heartfelt apologies.

We'll get to the manosphere, okay?

Okay.

But first, we want to talk about the other manosphere,

which is what's happening in global politics right now.

It's kind of, you know, Putin, Trump,

the leaders of Iran.

Also a sphere of men.

We are actually talking about a sphere of men.

Yeah, literally.

But it's something that affects us really quickly.

It's the price of fuel.

And the fact that there's been panic

by going on around Australia.

Yeah.

Because of what's taking place in Australia

from moves, the supply issues.

And I've had this sense that, you know,

the government on one hand is telling us not to panic.

And yet, we're seeing fuel stations,

particularly in regional Australia,

running out of fuel.

Yeah.

That is a pretty good reason to panic,

I would have thought.

Well, I love how they say it's not Australian.

And yet, it kind of is pretty Australian.

That's what we do with today.

Yes, exactly.

Right.

Right.

So I thought we'd be worth discussing

how much should we be worried?

Yes.

Now, we know that our fuel supplies are affected

by what's happening in the Gulf.

Australia has a stockpile of about a month's worth of fuel.

Of us leaves 36 days of petrol, 32 days of diesel,

29 days of aviation fuel.

Now, there was this really excellent interview this week

on ABC News Daily.

David Leone speaking with the ABC Samantha Hawley,

about the international supply chain.

And what we should and shouldn't be worried about,

I found it so informative,

it was one of those interviews where I kept rewinding

so I could digest what he just said.

He's a terrific communicator.

But he says,

and this makes perfect sense once you think about it.

He says,

yes, there are fuel shortages in parts of Australia.

It doesn't mean all of Australia is running out of fuel.

It just means that we've got transport issues.

And you know what he said?

The biggest fuel supply issue we've got at the moment

is not caused by the war in Iran.

It's caused by the floods.

And the inability of trucks to move fuel

from say Darwin to the east coast of Australia to Melbourne

and then to Daniloquen or wherever in regional Australia.

And that's why you've got fuel stations

in regional parts of the country running out of fuel.

And so he says,

what this points to is that everything's fine

if it flows smoothly.

And so this is a supply chain issue

like a literal transport issue

rather than immediately right now

being an unavailability of fuel issue.

But the question is also about fuel standards, isn't it?

Yeah.

So energy minister Chris Bond saying

the government's going to relax those quality standards

for 60 days,

which allows higher sulfur petrol?

Yeah.

So we produce this sort of less clean fuel

that our own laws don't allow for.

So we export that fuel

and we import the cleaner stuff.

So what the government's doing is to basically relax some standards

that basically means certain emissions will go up

as a result,

but it secures our fuel for domestic use.

And it's quite a lot.

It's an extra 100 million litres of fuel a month in Australia.

So that should cause less panic.

Yes.

What we can't control is what's happening in the state of Hamuz.

That's right.

So Donald Trump is at the moment like...

Very cranky.

There are some messages about

whether American allies

should be helping in the state of Hamuz.

He wants allied countries to help to send military forces

to help secure that straight.

So what's happening at the moment is that Iran controls

the state of Hamuz.

It's this tiny strip of water

where about 20 to 30% of the world's fuel flows through.

Iran is allowing certain ships to get through

to supply oil to countries like India and to China.

So some of the world's biggest economies.

It is targeting other ships,

particularly those with American allied nations,

which is what makes them so unsafe.

And there's reports that there are some thousands of minds

that are laid underwater

to blow up any ships that Iran regards as unfriendly.

And that's why it's so dangerous to move this fuel back and forth.

And so we've got this pressure point

with 20% of the world's fuel.

It's huge.

But it does mean that the vast majority of the world's fuel,

over 80% is secure.

So when we talk about how much we should worry,

yeah, we should worry.

But not about the entire supply chain.

It's just that 20%.

Now we've said just 20%.

It has caused the price of fuel to surge

from like 60 something dollars to 100 plus dollars a barrel.

We're all feeling it.

We're all feeling it.

We're all feeling it.

We don't have a car just.

I don't drive.

But when I talk about, you know,

what does this have to do with the slice of bread?

Everything because this comes down to the movement of food.

Or supply chain.

Yeah.

Exactly.

All the supply chain issues,

which we saw during COVID, you know,

when supply chains shut down.

We're all being hit by it.

Yeah.

Which goes to the fact that I do believe that Donald Trump

should have tried to engage in a case of not just domestic

but global persuasion as to the, you know,

the outcome he was hoping to achieve in Iran.

Because we are all suffering for it.

And now he's very cranky because he wants all these nations

to suddenly come in and help him in the straight of her moves.

Yeah.

But now you've got to concern this is a whole separate discussion.

But you've got to consider what the Israelis,

whether Israeli government considers to be the most important thing.

Is it the price of bread?

Is it the price of fuel?

Or is it about eliminating Iran as a threat and an influence

in places like Palestine and southern Lebanon?

Yeah.

But the thing is like, yes, it's of some assurance

that there's 80% of the world's stock that's secure.

But Australia does have a bit of a particular problem, doesn't it?

Yeah.

But we've been warned of for more than a decade.

A hundred percent, right?

And there's been this kind of war against clean energy,

which this is where it comes back to bite, right?

Because we are ultimately so dependent on foreign fuel.

So under the international energy agency agreement,

32 member countries are required to maintain emergency oil stocks

that are equivalent to about 90 days.

And many countries have more than that in their kind of domestic stockpile.

Australia has not met this obligation since March of 2012.

Now, some of our listeners will have seen Barnaby Joyce make some remarks

where he said that when he was in government in the coalition,

as deputy prime minister,

the coalition should have done more to secure Australian oil stock.

It's like he's admitting it on one hand that the government failed.

The coalition government failed on one hand.

And successive governments, Labor and Coalition,

have failed to secure oil stocks.

However, the time has passed.

The emergency is now.

The shortage is taking place now.

But there was a 2020 federal government review of liquid fuel security

and it was released under freedom of information in 2024.

And one of the lines in it says this,

fuel supplies in Australia are unlikely to be physically affected

as long as the disruption in something like the Strait of Hormuz

is resolved within six months.

And the international energy agency countries release emergency stocks

to maintain global supplies.

So what that basically says is that there is a lag between what we're seeing

in the Strait of Hormuz, what we're seeing in the war and run right now,

and how it materializes for us at the petrol pump.

And then you say, well, yeah, but prices are better.

Much of a lag?

No.

So you're going, do you know what that is?

It's not because of what's going on around.

That is purely supply and demand.

More people panic by, so the price goes up.

Right.

That's it.

Which is why we're getting so much pressure on the question of gouging right now.

That's right.

So the ACCC is investigating the government's threatening.

Most meetings.

Exactly.

The government's threatening to bring in tougher penalties for, you know,

kind of the price, price gouging.

Yeah.

People coming along with their Jerry cans from Bunnings.

There was a guy with like, there was, we had some pictures of this driving off.

He's got this, I don't know what you call it.

It's not a Jerry can.

It's his massive tank.

It's like a hundred liters.

Like a water tank, basically.

On the back of a yacht.

And he's filled it up with fuel right to the top and then drives off.

Wow.

I mean, apart from the safety concerns that I have.

Yeah.

Incredible.

It kind of just go, maybe leave some for other people, you know.

Yeah.

We have, okay, it's got to be six months though before we're seriously affected.

And then what happens at seven months?

Exactly.

Right.

And so this is where the pressure comes onto world leaders.

Yeah.

People like Donald Trump, who needs to get approval from Congress to continue this war.

But also we'll start to see this landing at home because, you know, when prices go up,

it's basically the oil company passing on the cost to the consumer.

So they maintain their profits for their shareholders, right?

But you can see Trump immediately going because he was writing on truth social.

Well, when this happens, America makes a lot of money because we produce so much of the world.

Your companies do make a lot of money.

But it's like, okay, mate, but what about the consumer?

Exactly.

Are you going to be talking about the boardroom profits or the people at the pump?

Exactly.

Right.

And people are going, I mean, people have already in the US started to kind of see a dissonance

between, like, hang on.

The price of bread and the price of oranges hasn't gone down.

Yeah.

Why is he telling me that inflation is very much under control?

Yes.

Because it doesn't feel like it.

And it was only as recent as 2023 that the Albanese government implemented the minimum stock

holding obligation.

So there's a mandatory, onshore fuel reserves to enhance energy security.

It's about a month of fuel.

So we now do have that month.

Yeah.

So what else do we do as a question, cheers?

So David Leaney from ANU, whom I mentioned earlier, he's got a few ideas about how we can deal with this.

He says one way to deal with it is to ration petrol.

Another way is to kind of, you know, I've parts of Australia where you could water your garden.

You could turn on your education, but only on even an odd days.

And he was like saying something similar with your number plate, odd number.

You can fill your tank on Monday, Wednesday, Friday, whatever.

Even number on every alternative day.

That's a way to kind of manage it.

He also says that maybe we should think about prioritizing fuel supply to things like emergency services

and food producers, farmers to allow those things to keep running.

So there are lots of ways in which to kind of deal with this.

But the problem isn't as immediate as it might feel at the Bowser,

although we are seeing petrol prices going up.

I check this morning, I think in most capital cities, they're sitting somewhere between, say, 225 to 240.

But in parts of regional Australia, so in regional WA, Cape York, they're kind of sitting around 28290.

And in finals, Queensland yesterday, price of diesel above $3 a liter.

I mean, that's got to hit home.

That is really wild.

And then there's a question about solar wind batteries.

It kind of feels like, you know, when you're dealing with all this immediately now,

it's like it's a bit too late to just, you know, get all your spare cash

that you've got lying around to go and buy an electric car, right?

Like it's the thing that we should have been preparing for a long time ago

because the funny thing is, people generally don't fight this many wars over sun and wind.

Exactly.

Jess, there's been so much talk about Louis Theroux's latest docker on the manners.

Hey, I have to admit, I haven't seen it, but I've seen a lot of chat about her.

Yes.

And I know this is something that's close to you.

You've got two young kids yourself.

Yeah.

Teenagers.

Our kids go to school with, you know, young men.

Yep.

And we kind of think about what their future looks like.

Yep.

What are your impressions?

Look, I actually really liked it.

I really like his style.

I like that he kind of goes into situations and just says, who are you?

And what is this about?

He's just got quite a bit of criticism.

Okay, let's talk about the manosphere because it's like it's a very broad,

dangerous concept in many senses, because it's Andrew Tate, a one-end,

which is the end that he's occupying.

By the way, there's the Jim Brose.

There's the influencers.

There's the wellness people.

There is anything with kind of bro attached to it and so on.

But I think when we talk about the manosphere, we're really talking about people gaining influence

by addressing young men and their kind of anxiety.

Anxiety is an uncertainties in life by telling them how to get success,

how to have a cheat code, how to win at life.

And what the cause of many of their problems is and that tends to land on women.

That's okay, so except for the last part, all that sounds good.

Like how to be better, how to be more successful, or how to kind of be happier in your own skin.

We do see some of that.

I mean, I think...

I'll talk about some of the characters that he mentions in a moment.

But I think one of the successes of this documentary is that it allows you to see

that and everywhere these, because he's in Miami, he hangs around with a lot of these different influencers

and as you walk around the streets with them, young men are coming up.

Oh my God, bro, bro, bro, I'll get a photo and I'll wow.

But also deeper conversations.

You've really taught me how to go on.

You've really given me a chance to believe in a different kind of life for myself.

There's also a lot of talk of the matrix.

And the matrix being there is a system in place

from which you are excluded.

And it's a system that's just trying to keep you down.

And you just have to understand the way it operates by taking a red pill,

which opens you up to the way things are going on.

To see that men are being put down, no, no, women are being put ahead,

and then there's people who are making a lot of money,

whose sole interest in this structure is in keeping you down.

So that's, they're trying to crack through the matrix, right?

I find this interesting because as a journalist,

I see this matrix applied to lots of narratives.

Yeah.

I am the victim of a system, and so therefore,

and sometimes this is right, right?

So what I'm interested in is how do we kind of fact check that for ourselves?

Well, I am interested in bringing facts to this.

I'm also interested in understanding the emotions of this as well.

This is people in, and it's going to get worse in a society,

which is patriarchal, which is capitalistic,

which is seen increasingly divide between rich and poor,

where in America you don't even have basic protections for your health.

You get, you know, someone in your family gets a disease, a serious illness,

you will be bankrupt.

I mean, trying to get ahead in that kind of system,

and we know what's happened to a lot of men who are from the working class

or what you might call the lower middle class, how difficult it is to get ahead.

We know what happens in the systems where if with basic standards

of being a bloke are providing and getting a house in this kind of housing market,

so they're legitimate frustrations and concerns.

The problem is you then turn around and say,

and it's women.

And if I could just get women to do what I want and to submit to me,

and if I can somehow by going to the gym and by following some of this,

sometimes good, more often than not, completely bogus financial advice,

then I will get ahead and it also gives me a community.

And it gives me a code and a thought structure

around what the problem is and how we can fix it.

So to kind of hope, does that make sense?

Yeah, it makes perfect sense.

So what is the premise of this show?

It's looking at what is going on in the manosphere

by taking a look at some of the most prominent men

who have the biggest platforms, the loudest voices,

who are stopped in the streets by fans.

And that includes HS Tiki Tokki.

He's a British influencer.

His real name is Harrison Sullivan.

He says things like, I coach boys how to be F and boys,

how to make money, how to be outside the system,

how to not have a boss telling you what to do.

I teach guys how to be proper guys,

not these soy boy gims who walk around in the modern day.

Then we have American manosphere superstar, Sneco.

He's very pro Trump and attended his most recent inauguration.

He's anti-trans, he's anti-vax, he's anti a whole bunch of things.

Myron Gaines, who's host of the Fresh and Fit podcast.

Well, you'll see like incredibly derogatory things

said towards women, like incredibly.

Like women will be in there.

Kind of young women often scantily clad

and he'll be like, you're just an if and b,

you're just, you're fat, you're this, you're that.

You discuss me get out.

It's that kind of stuff.

Like it's really quite vile.

I just would feel like it's quite exhausting to be in their heads.

Yes.

Like there's just a lot of hate applied.

I mean, you have to actually rouse quite a bit of emotion to apply.

I would find that exhausting.

I would too.

Yeah, I'd be like, mate, no, you're fine.

It's up a cup of tea.

Justin Waller is also another one of Miami-based influencer

who loves getting around in his fancy cars.

He's got a wife who says she's apparently fine with him

having Leo's on with other women.

How does this enable a close relationship

with women in your life?

If you're saying to them two of the guys in here,

one way monogamy.

And you know which way that's going to go, Jess.

So the wife who doesn't want to, we get to explain to.

Like she won't want to, she's in love with a man.

And therefore she won't want to sleep with anyone else.

But he will want to.

And at some point might want to have multiple wives,

one of them says, how's that going to work

for that kind of relationship?

And in fact, one of them breaks up by the end of it.

Is part of forming a community, forming a common enemy?

Yes.

This is what this ultimately comes down to, right?

Yeah.

It's an easy way to form a community,

like as opposed to a common hope, a common love,

a common joy, a common, you know.

And they will list out these guys.

They'll say, one of them's being asked like,

H.S. tiki toki, who's very big.

And he'll say, oh yeah, my mom hates all this stuff.

Racist, home phobic, sexist.

And they kind of list out the things that they are

and the things that they say.

This bloke will come back to Louis and say, oh yeah,

you want to see the footage I got last night

of a woman kind of, this is not safe for work.

Pleasuring me.

And you'll just show it.

A woman had consent.

And this is just the footage that he gets.

And this is the position that women operate in that world.

He introduces his girlfriend jokingly as his cleaner.

But there's more to that kind of joke, right?

Do you see in the show these men in the Manusphere

arriving at the destination where they thought they would be happy

and do they achieve that happiness?

What we see is the most prominent ones now.

So they are purchasing on this kind of,

you do see vulnerability and uncertainty in them.

People are like, yeah, yeah, bro, bro.

And once they get a kind of an independent arbiter,

like Theroux, who that convinced we'll be doing a job

and some of them joust and aren't quite sure.

And Andrew Tate says to him, well,

in correspondence, not in the documentary,

but says, I'm the most relevant man alive now

and who are you refuses to kind of cooperate?

Wait, what was your question again?

Do they achieve happiness?

Are they happy?

They are prescribing happiness that is about wealth.

There's one video where H.S. Tiki Toki has got like a woman sitting.

She's a G-string and she's sitting on his lap but facing him.

So he's got his armor out.

So you basically just see her just her bare backside.

And he said, you could be like me.

You could be like, when a penthouse like these $2,000 a night,

blah, blah, blah.

You see their shiny cars.

And this is what happiness is depicted.

Yeah, so like I'm going, how are you happy?

Are you happy?

That's a great follow on question, does.

I think one thing that became clear in this is that there were some really good parts

of Thuru's analysis, I thought.

One was showing how many of these blokes had had trauma in their childhood.

And we're just actually projecting their response to it.

That kind of very abullian chipper I can do this and I can be the best in the world

when actually they had had kind of either had been neglected or had been really hurt

or their father hadn't been around.

And that seemed to hold a little bit.

We go back to our boys being hurt and cared for and loved.

Which is spoken about all of this actually.

But how much sympathy do we have for people who are then traumatising others?

Traumatising others, yeah.

Correct.

And that's why a lot of feminists have looked at this and gone,

where are the women in this who have like,

like it becomes their lived experience dealing with people

that come back with these various bits of advice from the manosphere,

which is actually very dehumanising, violent and destructive.

So that's exactly right.

It is that it is that people enacting trauma in some ways on others.

The second bit of inside of his that I thought was good was that they end up in a way

replicating the matrix or whatever that they are complaining about.

They themselves set up a structure where they are the most successful.

They can make money from this.

But they are not actually providing people with means to get wealth.

Like Louis put 500 pounds on some get rich scheme,

while I'm suggested.

And there was nothing left by the end of it.

Like it's just, there's a kind of smoke and mirrors there.

One thing that is deeply troubling is how quickly a lot of it gets back to anti-Semitism.

He'll say, well, who's doing all this?

Who is it?

They'll be like a little sataness or there's a lot of sense of all these shadowy figures

who are running the world on them.

They'll just say, no, it's Jews.

It's a Jewish people.

And you can see that being fermented in incredibly ignorant ways.

So I've seen people criticise this as if they're not providing solutions.

Where is the way out of this?

What's the point of just depicting and platforming these people?

I actually think it is of merit.

He walks into rooms and says in a kind of pretty awkward way, who are you?

And it leaves us to have a conversation about, okay, kind of what is next.

I do think it sheds light on what you and I have spoken about quite a bit.

And something I've thought about a lot, which is the growing political gap between young men and women.

The fact that, you know, it was a study out last week saying that

Jen said men are twice as likely as boomer men to think a woman, a wife should obey a husband.

Where is that?

Like what is going on there?

And that you can see the women in this world.

And they'll get women from only fans.

For example, let me tell you about H.S. Tiki-Toki again.

He owns companies that promote only fans or that sponsor only fans.

He makes money from it.

But he says if he had a daughter that was on only fans, he would design her.

If he had a son who was gay, he would design him.

Something which he later disembles about when his mother is actually present.

But it's really a vehicle for a lot of hate, Jess.

And I think the fact that it's entering the mainstream is something we really urgently need to talk about.

We can't just say there's a bunch of crazies in the corner of the internet.

It's not like that.

It's not the corner.

These are incredibly powerful people pushing these ideas.

And when pressed, when pressed, like, but if you know this isn't right or why would you do that or why would you support it?

Why would you have a company that promotes only fans if that's actually your view?

And he's like, well, end of day I've got to make money.

Yeah, I just want to make money.

I don't know, Jess.

What do you think when you hear that?

I worry about, you know, who gets to be platform and how we apply sympathy to people who cause harm to other people.

I do worry about that.

But I think, I think you're right, it's also important to understand the root cause of it not to kind of, you know,

not in a way to kind of fix these men or whatever, but to understand for the next generation that we're bringing up now,

what it is that needs to change about how we listen to young boys, how we bring up young boys,

and the things that we expect of them, I think it is incredibly tough to be a boy in the modern age.

I think it is tough for parents of boys because boys get lots of really mixed messages of what masculinity even is

and understand masculinity through a deficit lens and that it is something to be fixed.

Yes, that's right.

And I think I worry about the impact more on young boys today than I do about these guys.

So I think that I think part of the discussion we have about these needs to be about, okay, where young boys are

also understanding guys that move through it and come out the other side.

I think that's a really important journey to understand and to take a look out.

And I think some other people have done that, we should talk about that.

But also, what about these algorithms?

Why are the platforms never held accountable for broadcasting this kind of stuff, for the hateful stuff, but also...

Magnifies and monetizers, right?

So I know that there are young, young men who they start going to the gym around 15,

go to the gym, look up, I don't know, best protein powder for boom, you're going to get Andrew take videos.

Like are these the right kind of algorithms, like do we consent to those ever? No, of course we don't.

We're so suspicious of algorithms anyway.

I know, but to what end?

What role can teachers play, how do we teach them to actually listen to women, to respect women,

but also how do we get amplified the voices of blocs who are out there just being decent blocs in the world?

It's time for Pick of the Week, Jones.

Now, George, if I told you I could solve one of the greatest mysteries of modern day,

identifying who is the artist, Banksy, would you want to know?

No. Why?

Because I think that's part of what street art is, is allowing anonymity,

and it's temporary, it's quite powerful, it's sometimes illegal, it can be fraught in that sense.

And I think this is someone who is very carefully throughout their career,

not sought personal fame in a sense of having a public profile.

But has become very famous and pretty wealthy as well.

It's anonymity. Like I know people have sold burnethones that they used to contact Banksy,

which actually received quite a lot of money in auction.

And I know that Banksy is quite controversial amongst a lot of street artists,

for being mainstream, for you know, there's arguments about is his technique actually good enough,

and why does he get away with things that other people don't, and all that stuff?

So there might be people like, we'll screw it, he's kind of very well established now,

and you're powerful enough to do it, but I still think to what end, Jess?

Yeah, so I pretty much am on exactly the same page as you.

But, and I hate myself for reading this, but Reuters reckons they've identified,

who Banksy is. I read it too. With irritation, I have to say.

So Banksy, just by way of reminder, is this street artist who has done mostly...

He's out of England.

Yeah, spray painted work on, you know, walls, you know, from Ukraine to New York,

all over the world, famous for the girl with the red balloon,

painting the one that was shredded during a Sotheby's auction,

the flower thrower, the kissing coppers.

So this is work that's well known all over the world.

But what?

Identity is a complete mystery.

Well known for what it's about, anti-capitalism, anti-war,

anti kind of inhumane treatment of people, of animals, of all kinds of things.

So there's always an element of subversion to it.

Yes.

So it's entry into the mainstream.

Acceptance by the mainstream is always a slight bit uncomfortable,

because people prefer the girl with the balloon.

And subversion with a message of hope, and joy, and love, right?

Usually, except for what that recent one about the judge

with the gavel coming down on the head of a protester.

Yes.

So we know the people who've worked with Banksy have signed non-disclosure agreements.

Others have basically kept quiet.

They are fearful of falling foul of the artist,

and his influential company, it's called Pest Control Office.

Yes.

But what Reuters has done is that they've gone on this lengthy investigation

and produced this monster of a piece, which they've published.

I'm not going to say the real name here that Reuters has identified,

and I'm not even sure that they're right, because no one is actually verified

that Reuters has come up with the right name.

Okay, so tell me about Reuters' rationale for doing it,

because there's a self-consciousness all the way through their article.

Yes.

That they know they're doing something that a lot of people are going to disagree with.

Yes.

Here's how they explain it.

They say Reuters took into account Banksy's privacy claims,

and the fact that many of his fans wish for him to remain anonymous,

yet we concluded that the public has a deep interest in understanding

the identity and career of a figure with his profound and enduring influence on culture,

the art industry, and international political discourse.

In doing so, we applied the same principle that Reuters uses everywhere,

the people and institutions who seek to shape social and political discourse,

a subject to scrutiny, accountability, and sometimes unmasking.

What do you make of that?

I feel like they've just overthought it a little bit.

Like, is that really?

Am I shalameing journalism here?

That's such a good word.

I feel like they've reversed engineered an explanation of why they've done this.

I think that's right.

To say, look, we use this with everyone.

Everyone's subject to scrutiny.

Okay, but you have a very particular artist who has sought anonymity so hard,

because he has seen it as central to his work.

So by challenging that, you could potentially be challenging his work,

the future of his work.

I think that's kind of possible.

And should art?

And should art and artists.

I understand the purpose of art.

It's to make you think self-reflexively, right?

It's not to present a case that needs to be argued.

The art doesn't need to argue back to anyone.

The art is what it is.

Yeah, exactly.

And what they do is, I mean, I'm sure you'll talk about what they do is go through decades of evidence.

But the thing is, do you know that one thing that annoyed me here?

Think grumpy about this.

One thing.

This has already been uncovered.

Yes.

This exact identity in 2008.

Yeah.

I've known for a long time who he is.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

And I've looked up those photos.

Right.

And I've watched it in the last couple of days as people going,

oh, he's just a boring, oh, white dude.

You know, I was like, oh, maybe take.

Maybe want to kind of take up cudgles on behalf of boring old white dudes everywhere.

So they can still have rebellious hearts.

And things to say.

And, you know, there you are exactly like stereotyping and categorizing someone who's had such an interesting career.

No, I follow Banksy very, very closely.

I've gone to see his work around the world.

I've seen it in Barcelona and Madrid in London in New York everywhere.

I've never seen a banksy ever.

It's popped up on street corners near where I've lived.

And I just took my daughter to...

But there are Banksy museums in like Spain.

And again, when I took...

I took my daughter because I thought this will be a way for her to relate to art, right?

And she did.

She loved it.

And it's also Instagram-able.

And it's easily understood.

But then you walk out and there's even the fact that it's in a museum.

And not just on the street for something that might disappear in the flash of rain.

The fact that he appears on a west...

Where was he?

West...

But West 80's second straight up in New York and people will put perspex over it.

So it doesn't.

It's said to preserve it again is kind of anti-fetical to it,

because now it'll then...

They want it to stay on that, because it'll improve the price of their property.

And in the museum, you walk out through a little museum shop,

which is actually mocked in the very exhibition that they just have.

Although I understand that those exhibitions he had approved of.

So I worry that this takes away some of the magic.

Yeah, but as I was saying, like, you've known, if you were interested

and you wanted to type in who is Banksy, you would have got this face, this name.

Do you find this a compelling investigation?

Because I find, like, I read through it.

I found it really tedious, and I got to the end of it.

And...

We've been grumpy about this, and I think it's interesting.

But I also thought, like, I got to the end of it.

I found myself not quite convinced.

Oh, no, I was convinced.

Yeah, I think the twist that they have is, like, that they followed him in Ukraine.

I love the fact that the...

And there's police records from New York, from, like, you know, a couple of decades ago, right?

No, 2020 and, like, he defaced something and fine.

But again, you've got the same conclusion that everyone had years ago.

But I love the fact that he was...

He's been out doing work with the frontman from Massive Attack,

who worked here at Myers, allegedly.

I love that fact.

Yes.

He had been a graffiti artist before, so the fact that kind of, like, that punk spirit

of a young man can continue throughout your life.

Do you know what I love?

We started this conversation about, you know, wondering about which things we should be worried about,

which things we want to know answers to.

And here's something we actually don't want to know.

Do you know why?

It's like saying, I don't want to know the...

I'm having a...

Well, it's not exactly like I'd admit.

You're having a baby.

There are very few surprises in life.

Let me actually find out when this thing emerges, what it actually is.

Do you know what I said?

When I had my daughter?

It's a baby.

Like, that was the one thing that came that I'm out.

I don't know why I was so surprised.

It wasn't him, girl, boy.

I was like, it's a baby.

Yeah, that was...

It's a baby.

I said, oh my God, it's a girl.

Are you sure?

Yes.

Because I was so convinced in my head we were having a boy.

Right.

And then...

Yes.

Everyone told me I was carrying a boy, too.

Yeah.

And...

And you know why?

Because she just kicked really hard.

I don't know what kind of gender stereotypes are.

That is...

So when I had my son, people told me I was having a girl.

There's this woman who said to me, this is a new...

A man had another friend's bridal shower party.

She said, Jill's having a boy because she just looks so beautiful.

I've had it the other way around.

Yeah, and a girl's still your beauty.

That's the stupid stereotype.

And she told the man she goes, no, I think you...

I was like, rude.

And then had a boy.

But think about how many people who don't want to become unmasked.

Like, did we need to unmask Elena Fronte?

Like, did we?

Yeah.

Why?

All that effort got into that.

And she's like a recluse and doesn't want that profile.

I think it's a really interesting ethical question about

when we respect it.

I think the one most powerful argument to expose Banksy is that he's so huge now.

And it is very mainstream now.

And when you're at the point where you are getting multiple millions of pounds,

many, many millions of dollars for a single piece of artwork,

does that change things?

If you're then, you know, who decides?

If you're more open or more worthy of being exposed?

If you're mainstream?

More vulnerable to it.

What do you think?

Along to the public.

What do you think?

I think about it through the lens of how I enjoy what I look at.

And sometimes it's about the art speaking to you and all the music.

Yeah.

And that being the entire value of it, that's it.

It's an entirely internal experience.

And I want to protect that.

I want to protect the surprise in the mystery and I enjoy that.

And how much do we respect someone who wants to do that?

If that's their wish, where do we fall in line with that?

I think we both know where we fall on this one.

Stop telling me things.

Tell me everything but leave Banksy alone.

Okay, Jules.

Yeah.

Your pick of the week.

Yep.

I had a little bird tell me that this was slightly related to my pick of the week.

Well, I like to think of myself as someone that brings gravitas to this.

I can't tell you.

As the local television correspondent.

Yes, absolutely.

Now, there's a man in Manchester.

We're talking like not to, you know, distant from Old Banksy,

who for quite some time now, if there's a pot hole,

that he thinks needs to be fixed, spray paints a penis around it.

Okay.

Low and behold.

What?

Council will come along and fix the pot hole.

And you know what they call them, Jes?

What's scared to ask?

What do they call them?

Wanksy.

You're welcome.

Priceless.

Yeah.

Oh, I got to love it.

Yeah, it's kind of clever when you think about it.

I'm running through a list in my head right now.

All the things I want fixed.

Get up there with a psh.

And a few people.

Spray paint can also work.

Maybe not a toxic version.

Lovely to chat, Jes.

Very nice to catch up, Jules.

Our producers are cinnamon nip out in Madeline Jetta.

Jules, catch you again next week.

See ya.