Germany says US and Iranian negotiators plan to meet in Pakistan

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Hello and welcome to news app from the BBC World Service. We're coming to you live from London.

I'm James Menendez. And our top story today remains the war in Iran as the conflict comes to

the end of its fourth week. And in many ways it remains as intense as ever with continued American

and Israeli strikes on Iran's military and its proxy in Lebanon. And with Iran insisting that

it'll maintain its stranglehold over the street of Hormuz, that vital artery for oil and gas

exports from the region out to the rest of the world. And yet there does seem to be some movement

towards at least a form of dialogue between the warring parties. In a moment we'll hear about the

impact on people in Tehran of thousands of air strikes. But first we're going to hear from our

chief international correspondent Lee's to set. So when we spoke yesterday it was messages being

passed now the prospect of a meeting between American and Iranian officials. What more can she

tell us? Yes, I think this new speculation comes from the latest comments from Germany's foreign

minister. But I think we have to read very carefully what he said. And let me quote it. He said

that based on my information there have been indirect contacts confirming that indeed there

is a channel between Pakistan and Iran. And preparations have been made to meet directly. That

would be very soon in Pakistan, apparently, apparently. I think that's an important caveat. There

is still no confirmation that this meeting is going to take place in indeed any time soon.

What had been confirmed yesterday by the U.S. envoy Steve Whitkov, he confirmed the channel.

He said that it was Pakistan that had passed the 15 point action plan as he as he called it,

which could form the basis of a peace plan. But if it is the 15 point plan that has been leaked to

the media, it's an ultimatum. It's a surrender document. And we understand Iran has sent a reply

back. It has also sent its own five point plan to the United States and others. But that is also

maximalist demand. So the two sides remain very far apart. But it does seem that one of the main

mediators, if we can call him a mediator, but he's at least a point of contact, is the field

of Pakistan, the Army Chief Asimunir, who apparently has personal contacts with one of the

leading figures in Iran. And that is Mohamed Baghra-Kabalaf, the speaker. But he's a point of contact.

He is not the main decision maker. And yet, we've got that going on at the same time,

reports in the American media of a large build-up of American ground troops, possibly 10,000

according to the latest reports. I mean, is it possible that the past four weeks may just be the

first stage? This is the concern now that at the same time that both sides, or at least President

Trump is pointing to progress in the negotiations. And I think we have to emphasize that the fact that

he pulled back from his Friday deadline, that he has given it 10 more days for those who want to

see an end to this war. And there are many around the world who do that, at least it shows that

they are still talking. But the preparations for what would be a very dangerous escalation

also continue to pace those thousands of Marines and more warships are coming from the theater

in the Pacific. We understand that elite forces from the 82nd Airborne Division are also on

their way to the region. And if they don't come to a deal, President Trump always thinks things

can happen very quickly. Proper negotiations to try to narrow the gap would be weeks if not

months in the making. And but I think he has his clock is ticking. He's mindful of the markets

and the oil prices. And he made this side, well, I'm going to escalate, but he may not have made

up his mind yet. And that was our chief international correspondent,

Lee's, to set. Well, because we, the BBC, like most other international media organizations cannot

report from inside Iran, it is extremely difficult to get a sense of how much damage the bombing

campaign has caused. Damaged to people's lives and to buildings. Data from Israel shows it's

dropped more than three and a half thousand munitions on Tehran alone in the past four weeks,

striking 38 police stations and bases belonging to the Basage militia, the regimes and forces.

Many of these sit in residential areas. The US doesn't provide similar data, but says it's

carried out more than 9,000 attacks across the whole country in the same time period.

It's our senior investigation correspondent, Noel Almagafi.

In Resalat, East in Tehran, a mother in Agni. Her daughter has been trapped under the rubble

for three days. My daughter's scared of the dark, she cries. She calls out for her child.

Maria, she wails. But help has come too late. It's been three days since this neighborhood was

attacked by Israeli forces. They told us they were targeting a military compound of the Iranian

Basage, part of the Revolutionary Guard. We confirmed the building they targeted was used by the

Basage militia. The bomb hit so suddenly, it flew me. Then there was another strike.

But that day, three other residential buildings were also struck in quick succession.

I hit the wall and then fell. I tried to stand up three times, but I was knocked into the wall.

This man, who we're calling Ali, has lived in the neighborhood for 50 years. His building was

badly damaged in the attack. I stood up again and I don't know what happened. Rubble fell on my head.

My hands, my back, my legs and my ears were bleeding. I don't have anything now.

We gathered as much evidence as we could on the ground and examined satellite imagery from

after the strike. Our investigations showed that four buildings were completely obliterated

and the blast damaged homes and businesses in a 65 meters radius.

Hours after the attack, the local mayor spoke to the media.

Unfortunately, they destroyed 30 residences. This was no pinpoint attack. They have caused a lot

of damage. Rescuers worked through the night to try and find survivors. Local authorities and

residents said at least 40 people were killed, but they said the Basage building had been evacuated.

Military experts told us that the scale and spread of the damage in this attack

is consistent with the use of one of the largest bombs, the mark 80, which weighs 2,000 pounds.

Ras Alat is one of the 38 police stations and besiege bases we've identified as being

hit in Tehran alone. Most of them, in densely populated areas.

Finally to the great proud people of Iran, I say tonight that the hour of your freedom is at hand.

The US and Israel say by targeting police and besiege installations, they're preparing the ground

for the Iranian people to overthrow the government. Stay sheltered. Don't leave your home.

It's very dangerous outside. Bombs will be dropping everywhere. When we are finished, take over

your government. It will be yours to take. This will be probably your only chance for generations.

But it's the Iranian people that are getting caught in the crossfire.

I don't know who's okay or not. I just know my friends at the end of the alley are all dead.

That was Noel Almagafi reporting there. Well, if as President Trump says peace talks with

Iran are going very well, what might that mean for its ally in this war?

Israel. Ashtal Feffer is Israel correspondent for the economist and author of a biography of

the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. I asked him whether Mr. Netanyahu was ready

to wind down the war. Well, Netanyahu doesn't really have much choice if Donald Trump decides

that a ceasefire is about to happen, and if there's Iranian agreement, Israel won't have much

of a choice. It's very much a joint operation of America and Israel. I don't see

Israel continuing to get this point on its own. And I think also any deal that Trump will reach

with the Iranians will mean an end to the bombing. So that means that Israel has to end it.

Well, let me put the other question I pose to you. Do the two countries share the same

goals? Well, to only to a degree, they both have aimed the Iranian nuclear program in the

Iranian ballistic missile program and other Iranian military capabilities, the Navy, the ILGC.

They both want to weaken those elements. But the end goal, which for Israel would be

to lead to the toppling of the regime and something new happening in Iran, which is less

threatening to Israel, is not necessarily the same end goal of Trump, who's much more interested

in having a regime which will work under him or accept his directions when it comes to

the energy flow out of the region. And for that, Trump needs a strong regime and probably

would work with the current regime under perhaps a different management. But still,

it would essentially be more the same regime as we see now. So that's where I see

is on America diverging towards towards the end of this war whenever that will be.

Because as you've written for Benjamin Netanyahu, I mean, this is essentially the culmination

of his political career, isn't it? Well, he's suddenly been talking about the Iranian threat

longer than anyone else now on the political stage. He's been talking about it for decades,

and he's been trying to get American presidents to join him in this campaign. And on the one hand,

he is now at the peak of his cooperation with the American nobody imagined this kind of a war

in which both American and Israel are fighting together. We all the scenarios we talked about

in the past were Israel would attack Iran, and maybe America would agree, maybe they would

support in some way, but literally a joint war is something which was unimaginable. I think

just a few just a few months ago. And that said, this is also a moment where he's also risking

in his relationship, because if this war doesn't work out as planned, if the results are a global

energy crisis, if America doesn't, if America is, if America the economy is hurt by this,

I think in the old very quickly become the fall life of the Americans.

And just in the sort of 30, 40 seconds we've got left, we're talking about Iran here,

but what's happening in Lebanon? Could that go on much longer regardless of what America decides to do?

Potentially, yes, the issue of Iran, sorry, the issue of Lebanon in some way similar that there

is an enemy there, his voila, who is threatening Israel and others in the region, but even though

they've been weakened militarily, they're still much more difficult to root out, the Lebanese

government is too weak to root them out. But at the same time, a ceasefire could also include them,

and Iran wants to would like to show that they have still control over Lebanon and include them

in the ceasefire. So it's too late to say whether an end to the war in Iran would mean also an end

to the war in Lebanon. That was Angela Feffa, Israel correspondent for the economist and author of

a biography of the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. We'll be returning to the war a

little later. We're going to be hearing how the views of President Trump's base may be changing

when it comes to the war in Iran. That's in about 15 minutes. You're listening to New

also coming up later a veteran Cuba correspondent on the impact of America's oil blockade on the

island. Without fuel supply, you can't operate the pump in your house for the water. The municipal

services like rubbish collection aren't working, therefore a huge piles of rubbish can be seen

around Havana, and of course these become mosquito breeding grounds. So coming up in 30 minutes,

our main headlines at the moment from the newsroom. The UN has warned there's no safe space for

people in Lebanon, even in the capital Beirut, as Israel continues its offensive against Hezbollah.

G7 Foreign Minister is meeting to discuss the war in Iran and its global economic fallout.

One of the headline Austria has become the latest country to outline plans to ban children from

using social media. This is James Menendez. We use our life from the BBC to Spain now and the

tragic case of a troubled young woman who fought a long legal battle with her father for the right

to end her own life. Nualia Castillo was left paraplegic when she was badly injured in a suicide

attempt after she was raped. And Spain's euthanasia law of 2021, Nualia won the right to an assisted

death, but her father tried to stop her in the courts. One in the end, he failed, and on Thursday,

Nualia died in a medical facility near Barcelona. I've been speaking to the Spanish journalist Hezbollah,

who's been telling me more about Nualia's case. The euthanasia of Nualia was programmed for the

second of August, 2024. But the father, Nualia's father Heronimo, tried to stop it, and well,

he made it the day before a court decided to stop the euthanasia while looking at the case.

This was the beginning of a very, very long trip in courts. Nualia has been through several

sentences, several different courts. And finally, she got the right that she was already given

two years ago. And her father wasn't acting alone. Am I right in thinking that he had the

backing of a conservative campaign? Tell us a bit more about that. Yes, the father is the person

who took the case to the court, but he has been supported all this time by an organization called

Abogados Cristianos, like Christian lawyers in English. There are conservative associations

and they're against the euthanasia law, approved by the Spanish government five years ago.

So they tried to stop Nualia's euthanasia and they're against all kind of euthanasia here in

Spain. And in her case, though, what was their argument? Why did they say that she didn't have the

right to take her own life? They tried to argue that her mental capabilities are not right to make

that decision, but all the professionals that visited her decided the opposite that she was

ready and she was mentally prepared to take that decision. So it was also what the court said.

And this is why finally the Nualia's euthanasia was accepted and executed this past Thursday.

Yes, and her determination was on full display, wasn't it? Because she gave a television interview

which she explained why she wanted to do it. Yes. I mean, it's really heart-rending stuff.

What did she have to say in that interview? Yes. In the last days of her life,

Nualia decided to tell her story on television and then address a Spanish national television.

And she explained how hard her life had been when she was the 18 years old. She suffered

several sexual assaults as she explained. And this interview is really hard and it has

provoked a lot of reactions, you know, in the internet and also in Spain and abroad.

Yeah, because I mean, she talked about not wanting that not just the physical pain,

but the mental pain. She didn't want that to continue. I was also interested because she talked

about not wanting to become a figurehead for a cause for the cause of euthanasia. Is that right?

Yes. Yes. She explained that she's no example for anyone. I mean, her life is her life and

everybody should decide whatever they want. I mean, this is the message that Nualia gave in that

interview. The she respects whatever other people thinks. For example, not only her father,

but also her mother. They opposed, but Nualia says, okay, I respect your opinion, but please

respect back my opinion as well. And my opinion is that I want to put an end on my life.

This is the right that I have, that the professionals have decided that it's okay.

And also the course. So let me do what I want to do. This is the final message I think that Nualia

wanted to give in that interview. That was Jesús Garcia Bueno, journalist with the Spanish

newspaper El Pais. Now to a frankly extraordinary encounter with a group of whales and what turned out

to be a highly unusual perhaps even unique example of animals helping a mother to give birth.

The whales are sperm whales living in the warm waters of the Caribbean off the island of Dominica.

They were spotted by a group of scientists who'd been studying them and knew them pretty well.

But on this morning back in 2023, they suddenly started behaving in a way that was unfamiliar to

the humans bobbing around in boats on the surface. Professor David Grube is founder of Project

SETI, CETI, and one of the researchers who captured the moment. He takes up the story.

The crazy thing is that we came across these whales quite early in the morning.

There was 11 members of a unit known as Unit A, which are lead biologists, nose each

individually as family members. We just saw this kind of very odd behavior where they were all

kind of facing inward and they were just going up and down and doing these shallow dives.

Two hours in, there was just tremendous amount of thrashing and the whales were thrashing about

and then there was a gush of blood and then amongst these 11 female whales, it was the small whale

mergers and we we see it. What was going through your mind? Every now and then, you know,

something just truly extraordinary happens and I think we were all just so grateful to have been

there and even more grateful that like our equipment was working. And even more than that,

we had observers on the boat that were just so intimately familiar with these whales and their

history for several decades. So all these combined allowed us to do this like really unique type of

study. So when the baby whale was born, what were the others doing then supporting the mother

supporting the baby? What we saw right after the birth is that the family members, the unit members

were working to lift the baby out of the water. So the baby was really unable to swim for the first

for the first few minutes and they were just basically, you know, working as a group to kind of

uplift the baby out of the water and almost twirling it around at some point completely out of the

water. I think you use some machine learning software to to analyze some of the recordings that

you made. What did it tell you about the way that they were working together? What we did is we

developed a computer vision software that draws little circles around each individual whale,

so you know them by their name. And then we passed this off to a complex network science team

to really show what role each whale played in this very unique whale birth. And what it was all

coordinated. One of the really interesting parts that I felt was that among Unit A, this group of

whales, there's there's both kin and non-kin. But we saw that they took turns among kinship

so two kin holding and then two non-kin. And this went on for several hours until the baby was

able to swim away. And at the end of this kind of, you know, very intensive day, we basically watched

just the mom and the baby kind of swim off into the sunset. And this is the first time this behavior

has been observed in what a species an animal other than primates. This is one of the most

cooperative empathetic examples of an entry into the world. Maybe only humans would be the one

that we can compare this event to. And do you think it's replicated across other whale species?

I would think so. We date this behavior back over 34 million years. You know, whales are these

ocean living ancestors that we had a common ancestor them over 90 million years ago. And we

stayed on land and they went into the water. But to give birth in the water, the baby is actually

negatively buoyant. So like the baby would sink like a rock. So this type of collaborative lifting

among sperm whales in order for them to do the successfully is something that goes way back.

It's truly unique for these, you know, these ocean dwelling ancestors.

Marine Biologist Professor David Gruber, whose research together with his team is published this

week in the journal Scientific Reports. You're listening to news out from the BBC World Service.

Do you stay with us? It's a lot more coming up in the second half of the program.

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Welcome back to New Year. Native to South America and about the size of a small deer

The Cappy Barrow is one of the world's largest rodents, but that's not one of the herbivores

from going AWOL in the south of England. Nine month old Samber and her sister Tango escaped

from a zoo in Hampshire. A day after being transferred there from a wildlife park. Tango was found

nearby shortly after the great escape, but Sam has been on the run for 10 days now, sparking a

big rodent hunt. My knees are colleagues Sean Lay has been talking to Laura Reed Chief Executive

of the zoo, Marwell Zoo, about their efforts to tempt Samber back. We have got an area of

land surrounding the itch and river where we believe she might be hiding out and this area is not

only private land, but it's also not that far from Southampton Airport. So we want to get thermal

drains up and we have to wait for the airport to give us permission to do that when they're not

obviously landing planes or taking off. And it's obviously the kind of passion that

Samber has generated the enthusiasm among people in the area that you're getting

volunteers like that. We need to give up so much of their night with a thermal imaging camera

so they can see if things spot anything. Yeah, so they've got thermal imaging on the drone and then

they can hone in and see if they can see anything but obviously in the dark we are just dependent on

the thermal. So it's very difficult though because the shape and size of a capybara is very similar

to the shape and size of a munch up deer and we have a lot of those in Hampshire in the particular

area. So it's a process of elimination. It can get quite cold at night at this time of the year

and presumably she's not naturally used to the kind of condition she might find away from her

enclosure. Then it's not the Amazon, that's for sure and it has been quite cold the last couple

of nights, yes. But I mean, capybara is live in many many UK zoos and their water bodies generally

tend not to be heated so they are quite used to colder environments here. They are fairly robust

because she will have found shelter, she will have bedded into some sick brambles or hedgerow

and cold up and kept herself warm. So we are really hopeful that we will still have a positive

outcome. Now actually this was a case of two capybara's escaping, sambar and tango, but tango

didn't get very far. No, tango didn't make it further than next to her enclosure basically,

so she knew which side her bread was busted. Well, exactly, she knew where she was going to

get a warm bed and some melon. Is she a bit lonely though, because they're quite sociable creatures

up there? They are sociable animals, so yeah, I'm sure she is wondering where her sister is

going. I mean, obviously we have to be careful not to put human emotion onto an animal,

but she is probably sort of a little confused as to where her playmate has gone,

as it's sambar I expect. She probably thought she was right behind her and then the host

came around and no, no, she's on her own. And obviously you have advice as well of what

people should do if they think they see her. Yes, we're talking about sort of our three golden

rules, which is rule number one. If you see her, please try and get a photo or video on your

mobile phone, because that will help us to identify whether it is sambar. Rule number two,

please contact us as soon as you possibly can using the number that's on our social media

with a precise location. And rule number three, if you do see her, even if you are absolutely

sure it's her, please do not approach her. She's not dangerous in any way, but she will get

spooked and she will just flee and then we'll be back to square one trying to find her again.

And that was Laura Reed, a head of Marwell Zoo, talking to Sean Lay about the missing Capibara.

You're listening to news our live from the BBC in London, I'm James Melendez. Now, what do

President Trump's supporters think about the war with Iran? Overall opinion polls show that

Americans don't like what's happening. But when you ask Republican voters what they think,

well, they're still a big majority in favor of the military action and how President Trump is

handling it around 80%. But that may be changing. At the annual conservative political action conference

where Reza Palavi, the son of the late Shahra of Iran, is due to speak, there are signs that some

of Trump's supporters have doubts. The BBC's Anthony Zirka reports now from the conference in Texas.

Seapack, the conservative political action conference, is an annual gathering of right-wing

politicians, activists, engaged voters, and various hangars on. It's traditionally been held in

Washington, D.C., but this year, it's near Dallas in the Republican-dominated state of Texas.

You don't want to send D.C. a message? Let it hear from you.

We may be more than 1,000 miles from the nation's capital, but the war in Iran still dominated

much of the conversation here, both on the main stage and among the throngs that filled the

convention center. Behind me, some people who filled the halls earlier today at Seapack to listen

to a panel on Iran are now Channing, King Rosalpavoli, thank you Trump, and regime change for Iran.

There's a very active group of people calling for regime change here at Seapack, and I think

that reflects some of the support that is going to show up here for Kalavi. I don't know. I just

I trust Trump to know what he's doing. That's Penny Crosby, a member of the Trump Tribe of Texas.

Seapack regulars who showed up in matching gold sequin jackets. She, along with Michael Manuel

Reaud and Blake Zumo, were unwavering in their support for the president. If there's a threat for

the United States getting bombed with a nuclear bomb, who can say no to that? He's protecting us.

He's protecting the American people. Channing, all the time, kill Big Satan and Little Satan.

They're coming after us. We are Big Satan. They're coming for us.

Do you think this force should keep going on until the leadership, the regime, and Iran is out of

power? Or do you think there's a way of wrapping it up before then? He can't just quit. He's not

going to stop until he finishes. He needs to finish the job. Some of the younger conference attendees,

like Toby Blair, a 19 year old college student from Florida, were more skeptical when it came to Iran.

I don't know that it's our job. I don't know that it should be our job, especially when you have

so many people at home that that can't afford basic things like groceries and gas.

His friend, Shashank Yalamanchi, a first-year law student, had similar concerns.

Honestly, a war with Iran is not what we need right now. The market's about to go into chaos

with AI. Do we need to go into more chaos over, you know, hormones or any oil supply or energy

disruption? I would prefer to scale back the conflict and let our Arab allies handle more of the

more of the fight. A floor down from the main stage, the exhibit hall was buzzing with games and

filled with vendors. That's where I met Samantha and Joe, who live in Dallas, and we're at their

first CPAC. They also had their doubts about the war. Trump campaigned on no new wars. And

yet here we are with a new war. So you're like, where did the campaign promises go? And I think

that'd be my biggest question. I'm very worried about the boots on the ground thing too. You got two

extraordinary units with the Marine Corps going there and the 82nd Airborne Division. I can't see

that as being good. I'll just say that. Right. He talks about finding an exit, winding things down.

That's just escalating it. King is speaking. Hear what we say. King Resor, Paul Levy.

Outside the convention center, Iranian activists were waving flags, playing music, and cheering

at passing cars. While some CPAC attendees may be unsure of how this war fits with an America

first agenda, their voices have been quiet compared to the Iranians here, who believe this is a war

worth fighting. Anthony Zirka reporting there from Texas. Well, four weeks after the bombing

campaign began, it's still not clear what the endgame looks like, at least in the eyes of some of

the Trump administration. There seems little doubt that US and Israeli estrikes, of course,

huge damage to Iran's military capabilities. And that's regularly celebrated by

Gairish White House social media videos, mixing footage of those strikes with clips and music

from Hollywood movies and video games. But what is the longer term strategy? And what does the

language some officials use to talk about the war? Tell us about that. It's something that

Phil Kly has written about. He served in the Marines during the Iraq war. He's now a novelist.

I asked him first how the language used now compares to the language being used during the Iraq war.

Well, I should say I'm no defender of the Iraq war. However,

since there was certainly a lot more talk of a certain moral purpose, we were trying to build a

democracy. All of those things that the war were sold on in addition to the weapons of mass

destruction. When I went in 2007, the mission was fairly clear, which was fighting the insurgency,

providing security, and trying to stabilize the government there. Much of my writing life

has been a lot of complaints about that. In some ways, you can see the Trump administration

as a reaction to the failures of the global war on terror, which is in some ways understandable.

But the response has been to just totally evacuate any kind of moral language. And certainly,

there's no clear purpose. Yes. So you just see no strategy. I mean, it's hard for you to discern

what the long term strategy is. Well, I mean, the problem is we've been given about 17, right? So

on any given day, the president or a leading official might say that we have narrow military

objectives of degrading their ballistic missile and drone capabilities, or sometimes it's about

regime change, or it's about the nuclear program, or because theoretically we're under imminent

threat for Iran, or we're going to achieve peace in the Middle East. So there is no clear messaging.

And it puts us in a very strange situation where as American citizens,

we can't really trust the commander-in-chief about why we're fighting and what we're trying to

achieve. What do you make of the videos that the White House has been putting up? And I

guess the defenders of them would say that their crystal clear. It shows that America is winning

the military battle. Yeah. So first off, I think if there's one thing that the Iraq war has taught

us to set sort of dramatic spectacles of bombing or even really impressive military operations,

because the invasion to overthrow Saddam was stunningly successful and showed a lot of military

competency that that is not the same as winning your strategic objectives in a war, right? And

that the consequences of the use of violence on a population and on surrounding populations might

be the factor that you really need to be considering. So yeah, there's a celebration of violence

and excitement around violence, which is disturbing. It's often juvenile and it's also not how great

American presidents have spoken about war in the past, right? You don't have that kind of

braggado show from George Washington in the Revolutionary War, from Lincoln in the Civil War,

from FDR during World War II. There's a very different scale of rhetoric, which is all about

conveying a sense of moral purpose and vision and seriousness and a sort of respect for the

the huge moral stakes of embarking on a war. And are there those do you think in the

trouble administration sort of leading on from that who've misunderstood the enemy?

I think so, right? There is, you know, I mean, one of the things that the American founders

that was central to their vision was the idea of all governments' rest on opinion, right? This

is something they argue in the federalist papers. That means not simply that government should

respond to the people, but that in complex ways government always does, right? This is one of the

reasons that totalitarian regimes are ultimately weak, right? They eventually sort of waste so much

of their energy coercing their own people, which was the situation that Iran was in. And you see a

kind of similar rhetoric about how, you know, from Stephen Miller to top aide saying that, you

know, this is a world ruled by brutal force, right? Which is very, for me, as an American citizen

who really believes in the principles of the founding, it's not just sort of morally at odds with

my understanding of what an American ought to believe, but it's also sort of practically wrong,

right? So they seem to have thought that they could do a spectacular military strikes,

and the Iranians would submit, right? And instead, we have a more hard line regime,

it seems, than ever before bombing campaigns of this sort tend to fuse the regime and its people

together. And so, you know, they don't seem to have considered the fact that simply the use of

brute force without a clear strategic vision can sometimes backfire, create unanticipated effects,

which is the situation that we're in now. Is it possible? I mean, I imagine there are people around

the world who do think this, that the previous expressions of moral purpose behind the exercise

of American power, that that was always just window dressing, just a different form of window dressing,

and that it was often hollow. Look, there are plenty of instances where that was more or less hollow,

right? This is, you know, my country is far from a perfect country. Nonetheless, that current does

run through America. And I think that, you know, as an American citizen myself, I really think that we

need to double down on the highest principles. And I think that that's the best way to move forward,

not simply morally, but also in terms of what is best for the health of the nation and the world.

The reverberations of the war in the Middle East have been felt all over the world, mostly in

the shape of rising fuel costs. We've been talking to people in several countries. Today we're going

to hear from Nigeria and its biggest city, Lagos. Here's photographer Jason.

The Wain Iran has been biting hard on us. It's trickled down, you know, to Nigeria because the

price of fuel, pay true as skyrocketed, going from about 800 Naira to almost 1,400 Naira,

which is telling on our business, because we are not having to have additional costs.

I have a staff strength of five people, and my staff have been complaining about the rising

cost of transportation. And as the owner of the company, I've had to consider reducing the amount

of time they come to work from five days to four days, or you know, increase the amount of money

they get, like transport stipend, you know, just to push in the effect on them. On the business side,

because of the power supply that's been ravaging the country, we've had to pin money to install in

water to help with the power supply. But even at that, we still don't have enough light to charge

the in water. So we've had to spend even more money to buy more fuel. It's really been tough. I've had

to work from home sometimes, and even at that, you know, spend more money to run our generator,

and we're really hoping things will get better. Jason, in Lagos, in Nigeria, talking about how

rising fuel costs are impacting his business. There's more on the economic aspects of the war,

and of course, all the latest updates on our website as ever, BBC.com forward slash news.

But do stay with us. It's still more to come on this edition of News Out. We're going to be hearing

from Cuba in just a few minutes.

This is Jason Anders with News Out. This Cuba next on President Trump's wish list. That's certainly

the threat from the White House. Last week, just a few hours after this Caribbean island was

plunged into darkness, after the electricity grid collapsed. He said he thought he would quote,

have the honour of taking Cuba. As ever, it's not entirely clear what that might mean in practice.

But what is certain is that Washington's blockade on oil shipments to Cuba, mostly from its

erstwhile alay venice oiler, is having a devastating impact on daily life there. This week, the World

Health Organization said it was deeply concerned about the impact of the energy crisis on emergency

and intensive care services in Cuba's hospitals. But is the economic crisis also weakening the grip

of Cuba's communist rulers more than half a century since Fidel Castro's revolution?

John Leanderson is a correspondent for the New Yorker magazine. He used to live in Cuba and has

been back many times most recently earlier this year. How would he characterise the current situation?

It's as momentous a time as the early 90s. After 35 years of almost complete subsidies

from the Soviet Union at the beginning of the 1990s, the Soviet Union imploded and with it

precipitously ended all of the backing that Fidel Castro, the leader of Cuba had received for

the previous three and a half decades. Cuba went into a nose dive economically and lo and behold,

he managed to pull out the stops. I lived there at that time. There were extended blackouts.

There was an pre-insurrectional moment at one time and then there was a raptors exodus. It was

very dramatic until Hugo Chavez and Venezuela came along and for the next 20 odd years,

Venezuela, first under Chavez, then under Maduro became effectively the benefactors of Cuba

with oil for barter deals and that has now ended once again. Without a charismatic leader,

like Fidel Castro, to rally people with this idea of sacrifice for a noble revolutionary ideal.

When you were there earlier this year, what did the cutting off of that vital fuel supply

mean for people? How are they coping? We've had this warning from the World Health Organization

this week that hunger and disease are stalking the island. About 40% of Cubans nowadays live from

the remittances that their relatives living abroad send to them and they sort of scratch by,

but without fuel supply, you can't operate the pump in your house for the water. The municipal

services like rubbish collection aren't working. Therefore, huge piles of rubbish can be seen

around Havana and of course these become mosquito breeding grounds and so you now have huge outbreaks

of various mosquito-borne diseases. In turn, there is not enough medicine. This is the country

that had, of course, a vaunted public health service and not only has that imploded but medicines

are very hard to come by and can only usually be found on the black market. So everything has sort of

ground to a halt. Almost no cars on the road. It's really gone through an implosion.

Is what is happening weakening the Communist Party and its hold on on Cuba?

In a way that you're asking me the million-pound question, because in a sense the Communist Party

is a black box. It's a single-party state now headed by a hand-picked successor of Raul Castro,

who in turn succeeded his brother Fidel. This is Miguel de Escanel. He's something of a gray man,

but with him and around the Communist Party you have the revolutionary armed forces,

which, under all scrutiny, is the great power in the land. Everybody has a relative who are

somehow in the military. In turn, that military, over the past 30 years, has gone into the economy

in a very big way. It has a holding company with about three dozen or four dozen other companies

within it that control or have an interest in everything from tourism to fisheries to construction

to hotels and so on. It has both the political determinism, the Communist Party, but it also has

this twin side whereby a large portion of the population is dependent on the economy of the

state that's come out of the Communist Party. Which sounds a bit like Venezuela, and so I just

wonder. Is there a compromise, a medium-term compromise, as we've seen in Venezuela, whereby

there are elements within the upper echelons of the party who might want to do a deal with

Washington in order to maintain those economic vested interests?

Raul Castro, who is now 94, and still very much the Aminans Greece and the country, determines

policy going forward. Now, he and the people around him are not going to negotiate themselves out

of power. Where are they going to go? They live on an island. They can no longer go to Venezuela.

Where would they go? Iran, another friendly country. No. Russia, not many Cubans want to go and live

there. There are a number of technocrats, some of whom are involved in the current talks with the

US, who could be the acceptable face of a kind of placeholder pending, say, a new constitution whereby

it could become a multi-party state. But my understanding is that the Cubans involved in the

negotiations have refused outright any attempt by the Americans to somehow manhandle them into

a political transformation. They seem to be willing to open up economically to a degree,

and the Americans have them by a stranglehold. Effectively, they're saying,

open up or we will continue to affix you. On the other hand, the Cubans have an ace up their sleeve,

which is that the Americans know that if things get really bad, you could have widespread

discontent and chaos on the island, and that could ultimately spill over in the United States.

It is, after all, only 90 miles away. And so you have this push me, pull you situation.

The Cubans are not unaware also that the Trump administration is in a quagmire in Iran. So,

effectively, you have, if you imagine, as a poker game, both sides have aces up their sleeve.

The Cubans obviously are in a more vulnerable position, because at a certain point,

the lights are going to go out. They virtually aren't now.

Finally, does it feel, I mean, in your mind and the mind of the people you spoke to,

that this is a crunch moment. This is perhaps the end of an era.

Yes, that's how it feels to me. I've been to Cuba twice in the past year, and for the first time,

I felt that Cubans were, there were more willing to just say it like it was. This time,

they were just saying, this has got to change, because they just can't continue to live like this.

Most of the young have left elderly people are on their own. Nothing's working.

And on the other hand, they have this, frankly,

reprehensible government in the United States behaving like a global bully.

And so, you know, it's a terrible time for them, and their heads are on the chopping block.

But most people just wanted to change. In a sense, they're past politics, and therefore,

many, many, many Cubans, I think, now are also kind of over the idea of revolution.

The journalist, John Lee Anderson of the New Yorker, bringing us to the end of this edition

of news app. Thanks so much for being with us. Until the next time. Bye-bye.