Goalie Issues & Central Convo ft. Devan Dubnyk & John-Michael Liles

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very happy to be back. I miss you all on Thursday. That's Colby Cohen. I'm Johnny Lazarus and we got

Devon Dubnik and John Michael Lyles. Joining the show today will talk about some goal-telling stuff

with Devon Dubnik. We'll go around the league with John Michael Lyles. The playoff races are

heating up in both the East and the West. There's like four teams battling in the wild card for

the East and there's five teams looking to battle for one spot right now. It seems like in the West.

So things are definitely heating up here as we reach the last month of the season. So lots to

get into today, Colby, but we do want to congratulate our friend, friend of the show, Cole Hutz,

signing his entry-level contract with Washington Capitals. He won't play until Wednesday night.

I believe is the capitals next game, but I know you wanted to say a quick thing before

you bring on Devon Dubnik here.

Listen, I think congratulations always in order. I'm really looking forward to

seeing how he makes that transition into the national hockey league and what type of game he brings.

I do want to have maybe a larger conversation when we have Johnny Lyles on a little bit later about

sort of this resurgence of these undersized. And I know Cole's not a little guy, but smaller,

highly gifted offensive defenseman, which is what Johnny Lyles was in a time. It seems like it's

more accepted to have one defenseman on each team or so that basically doesn't play defense,

but doesn't play true to defense and it's basically fully positionless hockey. That's what I would

say. So we will we will table that. And I want to like I said, I want to talk to Johnny Lyles about

that amongst other things. We'll do some avalanche talk with him, but there are some bigger topics that

I kind of wanted to get into with Lyles today. But our first guest is here. And I do think there

was some big goal tending news out of Edmonton this weekend that I feel like didn't get enough

national attention. And so I wanted to bring Devon on today to have this conversation with him.

And there was a clip on the internet too that is going kind of viral. It's up to half a million

views, tons of comments. And I'm kind of unsure what to make of it. So I wanted to pick his brain on

that too, Johnny. So let's let's just bring Devon in right into it. And I think you're on vacation.

So we appreciate you joining here, Devon. Thanks so much for taking the time. Where are you?

I'm in a Cayman Highlands right now. Wow. And you said yes to Vick.

Good. Wow. Wow. Does Vick have blackmail on you or something?

Well, at first I thought, no, I can't do it on my vacation. And I was like, well,

you don't mind palm trees in the ocean, the background. I'm fine.

Yeah, this is six. It keeps you engaged in the game, even while you're on vacation and keeps that

hockey brain spinning in the right direction for the for the big playoff push. So we won't waste

too much of your time here and we'll get right to it. I found the news of the Edmonton Oilers

announcing publicly that Connor Ingram is the starter moving forward. I found that to be big news.

And I don't feel like it's caught on on such a big scene yet. And I guess my curiosity with

you, Devon would be like, what would be the impetus to make this such a public announcement?

And not just basically continue to call your starter on a daily basis as they have.

It's a good question. I don't really have an answer for you on that one is to why

they would feel the need to do that. It's not really necessary.

You can just continue to start them at this time of the year. You're going to play whoever's

playing better, which is obviously Connor Ingram right now. So it's not going to be a surprise to

anybody that he's starting game after game when these are games that they need. So I don't know if

we'll get an answer. I certainly would be curious to if some of some sort of insight is to

what the reasoning or motivation behind going out and saying that would be because there really

doesn't seem to be a reason. You don't have to do that. So interesting play for sure.

We talked about I talked last week a little bit about the Jari situation and whether it was

getting blown out of proportion with stuff and practice and all that kind of stuff.

This makes you wonder a little bit about that. If it wasn't on a proportion for them to go

out of their way to just say Connering or the starter when they didn't really need to,

certainly raises some eyebrows a little bit.

Devon, I don't know if you saw this clip over the weekend, but Vic will play it for you.

There was a video of Tristan Jari in a warm up and I think a lot of fans were saying he looks

mopey or disinterested. To Colby and I, I mean, I'm speaking for Colby here, but this looks like

nothing. It's just a goalie who's not getting the start skating around. Are they just looking for

something in that little 10 second clip to be mad about? Is that nothing? What is there? I don't

know what's there either. You can spin it however you want. You take a 10 second clip. There's

probably every single NHL goalie in the league that isn't playing in a game. It's going to have 10

seconds warm up that look like that. Now, if you want to watch that warm up, warm up compared to

other warm up city wasn't playing earlier on. If there's some sort of drastic difference between

body language and energy out there, sure, I don't think you're going to find that.

But here's the issue with not an issue, but this is your under the microscope. Again, if I saw

a 15 minute video of him moping around for an entire warm up, then we could have something to

talk about. A 10 second clip, like I said, you could, you could say whatever you want. I'm sure there's

10 seconds of every single backup goalie in a game looking like that in a warm up.

Well, let me ask you, like when you're not starting, is it okay? This is my opportunity to warm up

my body because you know you're not going. If you do go in the game, most likely it's not going to

be for at least an hour, right? So what is like warming up? I guess I was thinking about it a little

bit, Devon. I don't think I've ever paid attention to what the goalie is doing in any warm up,

whether they're the starter or the backup goalie. So like what did you do when you weren't starting

a game? Like what was your percentage that you were pushing yourself towards 100%. Like I would

honestly have absolutely no idea. Yeah, well, everybody's a little bit different and it was different

to when I was, you know, when I was starting every game and had one off, I was probably taking a

pretty easy warm up, you know, cruiser around not not doing too much towards the end of my career

or earlier on. When I wasn't playing as much when that was more the norm that I wasn't playing,

I would take the opportunity and warmups to get some skating and at the red line, get some

stretching in, get sweating a little bit. You really don't get shots in warm up in the NHL.

If you're not playing on, you're going to see a few at the end of warm up is really all you're

going to see. So there's not really much you can do. I mean, for me, it was, it was more just

entertainment value find a way to engage with the guys a little bit, have some fun, check out some

fans, you know, whatever it was because you're out there and you're playing the best game in the

world and you're in the best league in the world. So, you know, try to entertain yourself a little

bit. But, you know, when I, when I wasn't playing and that was more often, I would certainly try to

be sweating a little bit at the end of warm up. But again, that wasn't for, that was for me

personally, trying to enjoy my time out there a little bit. I see a lot of backups goal,

or backup goalies now taking like breakways. I see that a lot at MSG. You know, I'm watching

warm up pretty much every Ranger home game and it seems like most of the time is the backup.

Like in the last three to four minutes to warm up, you know, five guys will go take some

breakways on and that's like a fun little way to get the backup goal involved. I don't know,

that's just something I've noticed. But Devon, I kind of want to transition just a little bit quickly

here and ask you about the Buffalo Sabers. They've been a big topic of conversation, but Colby and I

have noticed it too. Like it's not exactly they're playing the prettiest style of hockey in front

of Alex Lyon or Uco Peca-Lukin and those two have been splitting the net pretty much all year long

and they're both playing, you know, nine, 15 say percentage hockey right now. And I'm curious

just like for you as a goalie watching that, like for them, is it a lot of fun that the pressure

is almost falling on them and they're winning these games or is it like, guys, we can't survive this

for much longer. We need to clean it up in front of the goal tenders or else, yeah, it's great

that we're winning games right now, but come playoff time. This might bite us in the ass.

No, it's fun because they have confidence in the group in front of them. The guys are scoring

in front of them and, you know, scoring chances, they come in two different ways. There's chaos

and there's not chaos. And so even if there's a great scoring chance, when you're feeling it

and you trust the guys in front of you and you know what's happening, even those great scoring

chances, they're still, you're still in control because you're reading what's happening in front of

you, you're reading the play develop. All right, there's a breakdown here. I know what my guys

gonna do. I know who's open and you're playing through it. When you're just pure chaos in front of

you and you don't trust the guys and maybe the team's sliding and you have it one, then it feels chaotic

and you don't really know what's happening in front of you and you start to second guess and maybe

straight shots go in. So just because there isn't, you know, stifling defense and they're giving up

scoring chances doesn't mean that these guys don't trust what's happening in front of them and are

able to read eyes and know and also know that if pucks go in that they're working their butts off

doing their thing as a group at the other end, they're putting pucks in the net the same way. So

I think these guys are having a blast. I think they trust what's going on in front of them.

They understand that this is the way the groups play and they're not trying, they're not out here

trying to win one, nothing two to one and these guys know what their job is and they're actually

able to read off of their defense and off of their team defense better than it may seem

good. No, there are there are high danger chances. They're able to get reads on them and make those

saves. Yeah, and I'll say this. This is one of the things that makes Buffalo such a good watch

right now is they're so confident offensively and they are so confident in their goal tenders. They

do take a lot of chances. They do play high risk, high reward hockey. And most nights,

if you wanted to really beat them up on video, like they outscore their problems. And so for a fan

or a fan base or really anybody who enjoys the game, like it makes them a lot of fun to watch.

It there's actually there's you can make a little bit of a comparison to the way the oilers

have played in the regular season for many years where it's a lot of high risk, high reward,

score five to seven and give up three to four or whatever. And you know, the goal tenders always

got to be on their toes and ready for whatever comes their way. And you know, I think that's one

of the charms of and one of the reasons Buffalo is such a good watch right now, but track me.

Yeah, yeah. Devon, let me ask you this. And I you're obviously on vacation. So I don't know if you

got an opportunity to see the Carol or the Canadians game, Montreal's game last night. And some of

the saves that that Fowler was able to make late in that hockey game. And I know eventually

Cutter Goche scores one pretty late. And it's sort of the dagger in the coffin for for Montreal.

But you know, let me ask you for a young goal tender like Jacob Fowler, the way they've kind of

brought him up. They've given him a little bit of taste. Then they feel like maybe the water's

getting a little too deep. They rain them back in and they send them back down. But now you're in a

situation where you're getting so close to the playoffs. Like do you need to let him work through

some stuff at the NHL level now because there's a chance that Montreal is going to need him.

And Dolbech, really, if they're going to have any success in the playoffs?

Yeah, I like I really like what they've done with him. I think it's a it's a unique opportunity

that they've had to be able to bring him in. Like you said, when if they feel like it's getting

a little little little high pressure, whatever that is, if it's game, you know, they can

they put him back on. There's not a ton of scenarios in the NHL where you're allowed to do that.

And then you add to obviously the extremely high pressure of being in Montreal. And that's a great

situation to have for them to be able to bring a guy along and kind of give him a little bit more,

a little bit more. And I think, you know, when it comes to playoff time, if they are going to

need him, if they eventually decide that he's their guy, all of that is going to be beneficial

for him. You know, he's been through pressures. He's been in situations, I believe earlier on

in the year where he was, you know, not just going in there, but getting leaned on like,

we need to win. Like we got to we got to write this ship here. And he's gone in and done that. So

at the end of the day, come playoff time. I think that, you know, sheltering or protecting kind

of goes out the window and you're going to be starting your best player. And if that's

fowler, then he's he's going to be able to go and you're not just bringing up a guy, you're not,

you're not just having goalies that are struggling and you're just bringing up a guy for the first

time from the American League because he's a top prospect and you like what you have in him.

And you need somebody to play. This is a guy whose movie you've had up. The guys are familiar with.

He's familiar and he has an opportunity to succeed in playoffs. And I think down the stretch,

we get closer. If they decide that he's their guy and he's their best option in net,

all that all that protection and shelter goes out the window. And I think they're just they're

going to go with them because they have to. Devon, I feel like you may have answered a question

similar to this. I feel like I saw a clip or something and maybe I'm blanking on it or I got it

wrong. But I wanted to ask you this as my last question this morning, just like kind of looking

at the wild card teams, the teams that are fighting to get into the playoffs right now both in the

east and the west, like Columbus, Ottawa, Philly, let's say. And then San Jose, LA and Nashville,

like all those teams, which one would you find to be the most fun to play in front of right now?

Just like based on roster, maybe the organization as a whole, is there one of those six teams that

you would like want to be in that blue paint for? Probably San Jose, to be honest,

just seems like, well, there's two there. Let's go. We'll start with San Jose. San Jose, they feel

like a fun group. This is a young group who is same thing, high octane. They score a lot.

Celebrities have been unbelievable, but that whole group, they're kind of, they're really young

and they play exciting offense of hockey and they're kind of, they're kind of learning as they

go here and they're doing it all together. They've got obviously some really important veteran

guys in there who are helping lead the way, but they're, they've taken a bigger jump, I think,

than anyone expected this year. And so this is, this is kind of bonus time. And then right there,

and not only is this bonus time, but they've certainly showed that they deserve to be there.

And I think it would just be a really fun time in San Jose to be going through this challenge,

and to be trying to make the playoffs. And if you get there, you know, they're all, they're all

doing it together. And this is a little bit unexpected, I think, from a group who's gone through

planning a year as a down. So I just got to imagine there's a ton of energy and excitement

in that room. And then on the other side, I probably go Columbus. They've been, they've been a

really good team and a really good story. Obviously with, with brick bonus coming in there, they,

tough, tough timing on the Olympic break, but that seems like a pretty energized group,

who's right on the cusp there, getting into playoffs. And if they do, you know, coach bonus is

showing over and over again, you know, that he knows how to coach defensively and knows how to

know how to get the guys together as a player's coach and win. So I think those two, two fun to

be backstopped. Yeah, well, and for me, Devon, I want to go and finish up here with the Edmonton

Oilers, because again, I, I, I still, I still have faith that the Edmonton Oilers will be a good

team when I don't, you know, I still think they have some guys and enough talent and they do

have enough good players that if they decide to manage the puck and engage, like they're going to

still be a difficult team to beat. But I will say, like, I'm more worried about the gold

tending that I ever was even with Stuart Skinner. And I'm curious from your point of view here,

like they made some bold decisions in net this year. They moved off of the two guys who

have both played in the Stanley Cup playoffs and helped them get to two finals in a row, right? And

so if they do swing and miss early in the playoffs this year, what do you think the outcome will be

within the front office behind the bench? Like, do you expect wholesale changes pretty quickly

in Edmonton because everybody does feel like we have this sort of condensed timeline with

Conor McDavid only taking that short term extension? Yeah, I, I don't know about wholesale,

I think in the gold tending department, easier said than done with the trade that they made.

But I got to imagine if they don't have success in playoffs with the way the stretch run is going to

going that they're going to start to look at getting a bonafide start bolt tender in there

because they need to whether it's, whether it's stopping pox who just taken the narrative off of it,

if it doesn't go well this year, then they just can't do this again. And we said this last year,

they can't do it again, but here we are. And I think that if, if it doesn't work this year,

that's, that's kind of where, where you look, again, not just for the saves and having a guy that

they can be in there in when you games because I think that, you know, I think stew scares has

obviously took them to the cup final and Pickard did exactly what he should and Conor Ingraham's

playing great right now. And so you're going to get those, those bursts, but the narrative always

goes back to that. And if it doesn't work this year, that's, that has to paint. We just can't,

you can't have the same conversation every single year. So there's got to be, they got to go get

a guy if it doesn't work out this year. And obviously, it's been, you know, they put themselves in

a tough situation contract wise with, with Jari's as far as moving guys around, but things can obviously

be done. So I think that's what you'll see. And, and we'll see how it plays out. You know, I,

I was watching Skinner and Pittsburgh there and thinking, I bet you everyone in Hamilton was

love to have stew Skinner in there right now. I've only had a guy like George Skinner.

It would have been, it would have been pretty interesting to see him and how he would have

operated if he had Conor Ingraham behind him. And that, yeah, taking nothing away from Calvin

Pickard. I hate having this conversation because I love everything about Calvin Pickard.

Yeah. And we love him too, a friend of the show. He may, yeah, he's awesome. And so I, I hate it

because every time I have this conversation, I feel like it's, you know, kind of round about

talking poorly about Pickard. But it's like, if, if Stewart Skinner had a guy who could come in like,

or Ingraham and play a few games, the things are struggling, you know, to take that pressure off

a little bit than what, what we have seen from him. And we'll never know. But we're, we're,

we're already, we are, we are where we are. And Conor Ingraham's playing really well right now.

And if he's the guy, he's the guy. But if it doesn't work out, I got to imagine they're going to have

to target, you know, some sort of bonafide starting gold tender. Yeah, it's tough. Right. I mean,

they're not even like, I said to Kobe this morning, like, looking at the standings, I don't even know

if they're like a lock to make the playoffs right now. They're only four points.

More standing for a lock. I mean, a lock. Yeah. Manning's wise. They're not, they're making the playoffs.

Give me a phone. They're falling. They're falling.

Well, Conor, have you ever watched Conor McDavid just single-handedly in a game? Be like, no,

we're going to win now. Yeah. Yeah. You can go do it. I feel like we're in the same boat for

playoffs. They'll get 40 more points in the next stretch and just be like, all right.

They also won. They won last night. They only gave. I'm not expecting them to miss. I'm just saying

they're not a lot of Nashville. It's crazy to measure playing with Nashville's a team playing

with house money. So like, those are actually pretty tricky games this time of year. Like, you

think, oh, they got nothing to play for. Well, sometimes when you're just out there, like, yeah,

whatever, like being a gunslinger, sometimes those are difficult teams to play against late in the

year. Johnny, they're not the wall. The Nashville's four points back. They're not playing for

nothing. They're four points back now, all of a sudden. I wonder if it's to me were

Vegas and, uh, gosh, you else, they just beat on the road. Vegas and Colorado, those were,

those were monument because those are very difficult games and they were to say, like, you drop

both of those. I'm not saying that makes them miss playoffs, but those are two top teams that you

could easily win or lose either of those games. You lose both of those and then you go into Dallas.

Now, all of a sudden, you're outside looking in and other teams have games in hand.

It just changes the thought process to be those were, like,

season changing wins and how this gets approached. Come, like, leading into playoffs where,

I mean, they are. They need to be there and they will be. But, you know, you drop those two

huge games. Those are, those are really, really big wins. Yeah. Next week, they have another game

in Vegas and then home against the ducks. Like, those are obviously the two teams that they're in

it with right now in the Pacific. Like, they got some big games coming up. They got, and the

Kings, they got the ads again. Like, it's going to be a tough stretch down the road here for the

others. It's not like, uh, again, not a surefire thing. Like, this playoff race, all of a sudden,

like, it felt like it was uninteresting in the West, like, before the break. And now it's like

five teams going for one spot. It's become very fun. Like Winnipeg climb back in. I don't know where,

you know, LA is like in and out every day and, uh, national, obviously, it's like, Steven Stamco

is having 31 goals. It's like the quietest 31 goals of the year. I feel like no one has even

mentioned Stamco's at all. And he's still doing his thing. Um, but Devon, I got nothing else for you.

Obviously, you know, we don't want to take up much more time of your vacation. Everyone keeps

saying your background looks fake and it's hilarious. But, um, we really appreciate your time this

morning. Yeah. Yeah. Someone actually had, I think Oilers fan in our chat had a comment.

Palm trees. Obviously, he's in Buffalo. Um, that was pretty funny. Uh, yeah. Thank you again.

Your time. Yeah. Well, you can touch throughout the end of the regular season here in playoffs.

So that was good, guys. Thanks for having me.

Awesome stuff. Called, um, again, just like looking at the standings, we were talking about it

this morning, you know, St. Louis and Winnipeg played yesterday. That was a big game. Like, like,

these teams are five, six points back. All of a sudden, they went three in a row. You know what,

I mean, three in a row is not too much to ask for. Like at this point of the year. And in the east,

you know, Detroit and Boston are just one point ahead of Columbus. Like, it's, it's getting

very, very tight and it didn't feel like it would. We, I think we all thought the East was kind of set,

no? Yeah. Listen, I think we all felt that way. But then all of a sudden Detroit gets a couple

of injuries, right? And then they start going through this tough stretch where, I don't know,

the exact numbers of it. But in their last 10 games, I think they have three wins. Um, I think

there might have been some over, there might have been some overtime points within there. So they

did pick up more than just six points out of 20. But not a lot, you know, and since the break,

they're three, four and two, which is 27. I'm looking now. And then in their last 10 games,

there are three, five and two. So yeah, they've got three wins in their last 10 games. It's a,

it's a tough stretch, especially when, um, you've got a team like Columbus that's gotten points

in nine of their last 10 games, the Ottawa Senators, seven, one and two in their last 10 games.

Even the flyers are six, three and one in their last 10. So everybody on the bottom side of the

cut line, um, is seemingly, uh, playing very well right now. And, you know, the teams that are

kind of hanging around the top are, are not. So, um, I think Johnny Liles is here, uh, uh, Johnny.

So I know you wanted to read him in with, uh, with an ad, but, um, let's,

let's get to Johnny here as soon as we can. Okay. So before we bring on John Michael Liles,

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enjoy responsibly and with that, let's bring on our friend of the show John Michael Liles.

It's been a while since we've seen you. Everything good, Johnny? Yeah, everything's good.

Thanks a lot for having me guys. Um, yes. By the way, to your text, the answer would be yes to that

Johnny. Um, I, I do want to talk about the abs today. But like before we get into the abs,

there's a couple of other topics in the NHL that I mean, you played in this league for, I don't

know, like 50 years or something like that. So I, I do always appreciate your opinion. And I know

you're such a sort of a beloved guy amongst your peers. And so I wanted to start with the

Cole Hudson signing and conversation and make it more of like a general conversation. Like I've

been watching the Islander quite a bit lately and, and Matthew Schaefer and, and you know,

Lane Hutton is been a guy who has offensively taken this league by storm. Um, and so it seems

like there's this new resurgence of the fence man that are under six feet tall, skate really well.

And are basically just accepted that they don't play a position. Like you watch Matthew Schaefer

play. And the Islander, they're so good at having a third forward high. They just assume one guy

is always going to need to make sure when he's on the ice. And, and by the way, Islander's fans,

I'm not knocking your guy right now. What these guys do is incredible. I'm just saying it's

interesting how the game has sort of now accepted that with one guy on every team. And it was really

never like that. Well, you left out one name though, Cole, but you think Quinn Hughes is a big part of

that news too. Yeah. I'm not all these guys look up the Quinn Hughes though. You know, all these

guys look like Quinn Hughes. I was like, yeah, I mean, listen, it's, it's super interesting because

and you can see I'm in a closet here. We're in a rental house in Denver. But the, you know, now it

feels like, and I think you hit the nail on the head. It feels like there's an acceptance of this

offensive defenseman that, you know what, we're going to defer to their offense. And, and not

really like, it used to be that, hey, you have to play defense, right? Like, you have to play

defense first. And then you can play offense. And, and like, I can still remember coaches saying

to me, you need to hit more. I'm like, okay, I'm 5, 10, 185 pounds. Like, I mean, it's like,

I'm bouncing off of most of these guys. But sure, I'll try and hit some more. Like, that's not what

I'm really bringing to the table. But if that's what you think that I'm bringing to the table,

sure, I'm happy to try and provide that. So now it's more like, okay, you do you, you be offensive

and we're because of your offensive abilities and whether that's, you know, Quinn Hughes,

whether that's Lane Hudson, whether that's Matthew Schaefer, who has been unbelievable.

You know, and I think you can throw Kayle McCarr in that mix to a degree in the sense of like,

how much offense he provides. Now what I'll say is, Kayle McCarr defensively is really,

really good. And I think the way that coaches now view it is, like, maybe they don't hammer guys

in the corner and maybe they're not, you know, like physically imposing. But if they get the puck

on their stick, if they're able to create a turnover, what they bring in transition and then

offensively, you know, inside the offensive zone is well worth the, you know, I don't want to

call it a risk, but just maybe like not being able to hit and pin a guy for five seconds, like

it used to be. And so it's interesting to see, you know, the evolution of the game because yeah,

it used to be play defense first and then join the offense. Well, now it feels like it's more

be offensive first. And if you are going back and you're in the defensive zone and somebody's

coming to run you through the boards, maybe don't take that hit and maybe try and get the puck

another way. And so, you know, it has, it has, you know, been a change, I think, throughout the

NHL. And when you have these guys, the Quinn Hughes is the Hudson's the shafers, the McCarr's,

you know, the Bouchards, the guys that are so good offensively, it's almost worth that kind of

tipping the scales the other way is the way that, you know, I look at it versus what it was 15

years ago, 20 years ago, where it was, okay, we are, you know, we're a physical team and we've got,

you know, one or two guys that that that provide offense from the blue line.

I think I don't want to like necessarily make this a critique, but you said Bouchard, right? Like

Bouchard, I think it's still different though. Like these guys, for me and what you were just

talking about, they rely so much on their skating. Like they're, yeah, they're like, they're like,

they're like able to take the risk because they can get back quickly enough to recover. Yeah,

but Johnny, I'm going to even push back on you there. Yeah, please do. Yeah. And I played with

John Michael Isles and you would skate like a freaking win. Imagine if someone literally just

said to you, go play position, let's hockey, you would have had double the amount of points that

you did have because they still think that you, if you're going to go up and be in the corner,

you got to be the first one back. Yeah. I watched Quinn Hughes. I watched Shafer. I watched

Lane Hudson. There's a lot of shifts where these guys are actually the last guy back and there's

so many other players that are back. There's no need for them. Like I've seen Lane wait for a breakout

pass at the far blue line and not come all the way back. It is different, Johnny. Like I get

your point. They skate really well or last, but, but like it's just a very different acceptance

of like you're not, you don't have a position anymore. Yeah. And that yes to a degree. Yes.

And I'm not, I don't know that I agree with like you don't have a position. What it is is you

have the freedom. If you see it because of your offensive instincts, you go and we'll read off

of you. And I think that's frankly, like I think it's a, I think coaches have changed in a,

you know, in that regard a little bit. I just, I feel like they're more accepting of these,

you know, these young players. Like, hey, what I love to play in this game right now,

absolutely. You know, I'd love to eat your contract and freedom to do whatever the hell I want it.

And I love, you know, I grew up a forward. I'd love to play D now.

My neck is hurting watching you go up and down the ice, Johnny. I would be like,

I'm in whiplash watching you go. Yeah, no, it's, I would have very much enjoyed playing

this game. But at the same time, like, yeah, I think to a degree, it is. It's the coaches. It's

the general managers. It's the philosophy of, you know what? Like, these are, when you look at,

and I guess, you know, underlying numbers come into play, I think a lot more now than they used to.

But okay, we're looking at these underlying numbers. Do they create way more offense than they,

they potentially, you know, give up going the other way? And I think when you look at these guys,

the Matthew shafers and whatnot, like, they're looking at it saying, okay, the way that he creates

offense and everybody else can read off of what he's doing. So even if that's a third forward

high, guess what? Matthew shaffer may drive the puck down below the goal line and still find that

third forward high in the high slot for a scoring chance. Lane Hudson, the same way. Like,

Quinn Hughes, I mean, if I went across the blue line and back and back and back on a shift,

and I came off Jacques Cloutier would have, would have sat me down and said, hey, that's,

buddy, we don't do that. Right? That's, you know, so, like, so Vela Fave would have looked at me,

like, I had to be ahead. I would not have liked that. But now it's like, if you can shake that top

forward and you do it, call it 20 times out of 22, right? And without losing the puck and without,

you know, the puck going out of the zone, all of a sudden now everybody else that's playing D

is like, oh, shit, he just beat our top guy. You know, now we have to read. And then now everybody's

read, you know, all your teammates are reading off of you. I just think that the skating ability

of these, these younger D and the offensive instincts, so good. I mean, we've seen so many D

over the years that have just amazing offensive instincts. This to me is a different version,

right? This is a, like you said, it's, I don't want to call it positionless, but it border lines

on being a fourth forward. Yeah. And with the ability to skate backwards really well and be the

first guy back, if need be with your skating. So that to me is more of the, if you want to define

it, that to me is what it feels like. John Lazz, it seems like they're always skating forwards too,

right? These guys are always, they're always surfing. I mean, even, I'd even throw, like we're talking

about skating ability, Charlie McAvoy, he's like never skating backwards. He's always surfing. He's

always pressing up. He takes away, Quinn Hughes. He takes away so much time and space by skating

forwards at guys or skating. It is this new, it really is. I would agree. It just looks so much

different. There were, there were guys like Carlson and Latang and these guys that were insanely

gifted offensive defensemen. There's a whole list of them, right? Through the, through the 2000s

and even the 2010s, 15s. But now this is like this new shaffer, this new shaffer like

defensemen, Quinn Hughes, shaffer layman. It is just a whole new echelon glass of talent.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong here, but it feels like where the game has changed the most. It's like

15 years ago, when I was growing up, you were taught to create offense off the cycle below the

bottoms of the circles. And now you're creating offense above the tops of the circles. You're getting

the puck out high and you're bringing that forward. You're having the forward climb the wall

and you're almost creating some sort of interchange up high in the zone, which causes confusion for

the D. So instead of creating, creating offense down low, you're creating it up high. And that's

where the game has like really changed. Well, what we're seeing now, I would say is you're seeing

a five man cycle. And, and, and, and coaches have had to go to that. And, and maybe, you know,

maybe part of that is because of, you know, the old Boston system, like I finished with the

Bruins where it's, you know, the Dean never goes above the hash marks. And, and the center always

would flex out the Patrice Berger on days. And I think part of that was, you know, Chara and like,

they wanted to keep him closer to the net front and shut down cycles in the corner and boy chuck and

guys like that, where now it's like now that five man cycle almost forces those players to get out

of their comfort zone in the defensive zone. Because now if you're playing man on man, or even if it's

a zone, that five man cycle, there's so much, there's so much more reads and, and, and, and, and what

they're trying to do is make those defenders uncomfortable and not just work in half of that offensive

zone. Now they're working in that entire offensive zone, blue line down. And, and part of that is

coaching, part of that is, you know, how do we create more offense, not just below the goal line?

And I think that now you see coaches that are, I guess, more agreeable to that and, and allowing

those players to thrive, especially those offensive defensemen that skate so well and read the

play so well. Yeah, it does make for fascinating conversation. And by the way, I love the US Olympic

team helmet, the, the Bauer 4,000 old school. I love that. Listen, one thing you had on, later in

your career when you started like warrior and all that, maybe not as good. Man, when you're a Bauer

guy with Eastern stick, you're a style with something that I was like, this is the whole

tournament you're right here. My first training camp with all my CCM stuff. I remember looking at

your goal and that's, that's the way I wanted to look one day for Bauer 4,000 Bauer 4,000

old love, Eastern stick with the blue bottom. I mean, you, you had it going pretty good.

Those, those are the good old Nike Bauer days too, for a while. So then it was like that,

that was like the, the, the top of the style pyramid, right? But yeah, the Bauer 4,000 kind of

faded out on me when I started getting concussion after concussion. I had to figure out something

that might maybe, maybe had a little more padding in there. People say you got a concussion

just from putting it on. Yeah, I mean, like, I think, you know, I mean, you guys know, like all

four years of college, I think I had the same helmet. We never, you know, never had a brand new one.

So it was just, it was literally like just concrete. Yeah. Well, I mean, the pictures of John

Carlson wearing that, yeah, like 4500. Yeah, it's so unnatural. But I remember you in Boston,

I think that was the first time you went to the bigger helmet when you were in Boston. And I

remember just seeing that being like, this just, this looks unnatural to me. Yeah, it definitely

felt a little strange. But you know, it was, I was just trying to keep my brain somewhat

functioning for another year, I guess. I'm looking it up. It was a warrior, I think, at the time.

Yeah, I think I wore an Eastern helmet in Carolina a little bit. But yeah, I mean, I was, I was,

I was Bauer 4,000 even into Toronto days. And then I think as I went down to Carolina, I think,

yeah, all of a sudden you're having a family realize you maybe should keep the brain functioning

for, you know, at least try and get to their 18 years old. Someone's got to be able to read

cats can't ski. I can't be the only one. You mentioned the Toronto Maple Leafs. So I got to

ask you, as a guy who spent time in that market, they are just in the news right now for all the

wrong reasons. And, and, you know, we saw what happened with that hit. And I loved what Kevin

B. X said that on Hockey Night in Canada the other night. He's like, don't we value courage. And

he goes, well, it was really selfish of those guys not to just jump right in because if you don't

jump right in, you're thinking about, what am I going to, what's going to happen to me? Am I going

to get suspended when you probably don't think about anything other than I'm going to commit,

you know, some form of murder on the ice after a play like that. I mean, were you as feeling as

this was as egregious, forget the hit we such a bad hit. It's a terrible hit. I think you should have

been doing that since he stepped in the league. Like it's like, when somebody said,

Goudus made a terrible hit. I was like, I mean, yeah, that's, I've seen it for the last however many

years. I mean, whatever, like I get that he's a, you know, an effective player to a degree. But

like, I remember him coming in. I think he came in with Tampa and he was doing the same thing.

Maybe it's a little fewer. Yeah, I've made him a Norfolk in the American that he was,

he was butchering guys down there too. And I said it last week off the ice. He's a teddy bear.

I, the guy is a literal teddy bear off the ice. I was his neighbor in Philly, but you hate to see

that type of play. But as bad as the hit was, that non-response in the moment is,

baffling to me, Johnny, like, at this point, I mean, yeah, what do you do if you're the main beliefs?

That, I mean, that's the, that's the question because for the last couple of years,

everybody pointed that, oh, it's Mitch Mariner, right? It's Mitch Mariner. They have to, you know,

Mariner's the problem. Mariner's the problem. Matthews performs and, and Nielander performs,

well, be careful what you wish for, right? Because now you don't have Mitch Mariner and it,

it hasn't gotten any better. I don't know who all was on the ice with Matthews there with that

head. I think it was Nielander because I saw him. And Riley. Yep. And Riley. Okay. And I didn't,

I don't know who else was out there. But yeah, I mean, like,

howling and Carlo. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I, like, like, I played with Carlo. Yeah. He's six foot five

and I love him to death. He's one of my, like, really good friends. Like, I, I'm not saying it's

Brandon Carlo that has to jump in there. I'm saying every guy on the ice should have been jumping

in there. And the bench should have cleared. I mean, yeah, like, that's a, that's a borderline.

Yes, bench clear. But, but yeah, it's, it's, like, I always look at, like, just the,

the teams that, like, I go to Tampa, right? You know, like, you've got a couple guys that,

that'll fight really. But when you look at Tampa, like, they always, they're just team tough,

right? Like, you go back to, I think it was Riley on Kutra off a few years ago. Every guy,

like, Braden Point was the first guy in that scrub. Braden Point doesn't, I mean,

maybe he fights once every three years at most, right? Like, occasionally,

but he was the first guy jumping on Morgan Riley. And it was, like, it was a hard hit. I didn't

think it was dirty at the time, but Kutra off went into the board's hard. And it was like,

every guy on the ice for Tampa jumped in. And, and, and I don't even know if there was actually

a fight. There might have been one out of that entire thing. But yes, like, like, yeah, we,

you know, I thought Biaxas said it really well. Like, if one of the sedans got hit, he said he

would fight Andre the giant. Yeah, it didn't matter, right? Like, and, and, and let's be honest,

Kevin Biaxas is tough as shit. So, like, like, it was, you knew, and this is, maybe this is a little

bit more, you know, old school, but I still think there are some teams. Like, when, when,

when stuff like that happens, it's like, you know, there's five guys on the ice that are jumping

in. And to a degree, like, what Buffalo's doing now? Like Tampa, you know, that Tampa Buffalo

game, I'm sure you guys have talked about it. But it was ridiculous, right? I was at home watching

it, just laughing because it was so insane. But like, when Hagle, what he did to Dali,

and which I still don't, you know, agree with the fact that it was a four minute, right?

You're just sitting there, just shaking your head. Dali didn't not tap him though. That's

well, yeah, I get it. Yeah, I get it. Like, hey, he not tapped him, but, um, but like,

don't, I think, jumped in, right? Yeah. And, and, and like that picture of don't with the gloves

flying. Like, now all of a sudden, Buffalo, I think, is starting to, to, you know, get some of that

team toughness. And I think that's where Toronto, it's like, they're just, they've gone a little

bit wrong. And I don't know if that's, it's definitely not Craig Barubi. Um, you know, I, I,

I just, there's, there's something lacking there in the sense of like, it's Austin Matthews. He's

your captain. He's your arguably your best player. And nobody even looked at you. Right? I know

the ref were whatever the lines, but weren't right over to Lewis. But like, the other four guys on

the ice should have been like, kamikazeing in at that point. Yeah. It's regardless of like how

he looks and whatever. I mean, I get like, the, the guys on the ice aren't your, your,

your four toughest, but still like, to me, uh, it just, it, it felt like there was, there was,

it was lacking by a lot. Well, we have a comment on this if I can. Like, Randy,

Randy, where if I just said, this points out that Matthews might not be, no, and I disagree

with that. I completely disagree with that. It's a team thing. I'm doing this. And, and,

you put Matthews on the Olympic team and see if he gets jumped on that. All jumping. He would

have it. There'll be a fence clearing brawl for them. They're all jumping in. Yeah, I mean,

the chucks would be in the penalty box, breaking glass down, climbing glass to get it,

whoever gets it right. Like, yeah. I mean, it's not a dissident, but like, Matthews. No, no,

it's, I don't think it's a dislike, but it's, I don't know. It is. It's such a fine line. And,

like, I always go back to, you know, watching, you know, Colorado, just because I worked for them

and do stuff for them. But like, like, there's, it's almost like you have to learn that team toughness

a little bit. Like, you have to kind of go through the ringer. You have to learn to win. I firmly

believe that, you know, sometimes you, you have to lose in order to kind of learn to win. And

then you, I think as a, you know, as a team, sometimes you got to learn to be team tough. And,

and maybe this is, you know, what propels that group forward? And maybe, you know, next year's

a, a completely different animal, but you go back to Toronto, like they brought, brought Ryan

Reeves in, I don't know, four years ago, three years ago, as that guy that was going to change the,

you know, the culture you had to be there to step up for guys. And then they, they got rid of them.

And, and, you know, not to say, but like, it's more team tough than just that one guy in my mind.

Yeah. Great. And I'm, I'm talking about the Islander down there overnight, but I'm a Craig

Barubi fan. And like, I just can't believe how much this team has quit on Craig Barubi. Like,

I said, after that moment, I feel like you, you're going to have to clear out the front office.

You're going to have to clear out the coaching staff. By the way, I've, I've had Craig Barubi's

back. And I, I, I like Craig Barubi, but there's the players have quit for whatever reason. It's

very evident that these players have completely packed it in on this iteration of leaves management

and leaves coaching staff, which again, you know, how many of they're going to go through before

it's like, we need to change kneelander. We need to change the captain. Who knows, right? And so,

don't forget, they fired, you know, marks of art in December. He was the problem and Steve's

all of it. Yeah. Like, and, and their power play went nuclear after that. And all of a sudden,

it was like, oh, some art was the problem. We got it. No, we're good. Yeah. Right. There's

the funny, funny comment in our chat that said, I don't remember who I, it, it's scrolled up here

on me, but it said something like, if goodness wasn't suspended, Kachuk would have probably run him

for, for doing that when they played against, um, whether at which Kachuk, I don't know which Kachuk.

Yeah, either I want to take your back. Yeah. Um, Johnny, you're the best. Thanks for coming on

this morning. Thank you so much. You can obviously keep, what's the name of your guys podcast out

in Colorado? What's the actual name of the show? Uh, puck around and pod out is the podcast. So

we had John Robleski, who is the head coach of the US women's gold medal team. I played with him

at the program. Uh, we had him on our most recent one. And it was awesome. Like, you can give him a

question and he runs for five minutes with an answer. Like, he's so smart. He's so in-depth.

And then we actually, uh, we're filming with, uh, Nazem Kadri tomorrow. Oh, awesome. So,

I'll be able to check that out. We'll definitely try to keep reminding people to check that out.

I say this all the time. No one has more fun than the avalanche broadcast crew. No one has

one. Not even close. Yeah, it's not even close. Now, love them or hate them. A lot of other

fan bases feel like you guys are too homer. But at the end of the day, you're the avalanche broadcast.

We worked for the abs. Yeah. But no one has worked for TNT or ABC. Then, yes, I'll, I'll, I'll be

less homer. But I worked for the abs. Yes. All right. But you're the best. Thanks for coming on.

All right. Appreciate you guys.

Colby, one thing I wanted to ask, I know we kind of ran low on time. Um, and, and maybe I'm just like,

you know, making your eyes. Remember, I just, it's just, it's just, it's just one question. I have to

go to the morning skate too. I gotta go to morning skate. Um, but remember the player I said at

our live show, like who's going to have the, the best PR, I guess, after the Olympics, like,

which player did you think was good before the Olympics? But now you really understand how good

they might be. And for me, that was Marty natious. And Marty natious this year has been so

incredible for the Colorado avalanche. The question I wanted to ask you, I thought you said,

no, I said, Marty natious. Um, and I think you said, Quinn, he was actually like, you knew Quinn

was good, but obviously not to the extent of how good he, like, we're talking maybe best.

Well, I just now I watch Quinn every night. Yeah, it's different. Yeah, every night before I

haven't seen him play this much. And I don't know how. But with natious, like, obviously, we,

we wanted to talk about the Dallas stars. Say we didn't really get to them. I kind of wanted to

ask Johnny, like, which guy he'd rather have right now, where the team is natious. Because it was,

it was this whole thing, right? Like I can guarantee you an answer. I guarantee you he would say

natious right now. Darren, you think so? But you know, you go, you go back to the first round of

the playoffs last year. Renton is the reason why Dallas be Colorado. I'm just saying,

he, Johnny is a, Johnny is a thick and fit. Like his, the part of the whole

than Brandon. I mean, it's hard to argue with how the success has been going that anybody,

like it, it does, it looks like you took out a plus and you brought in a plus. I mean,

that's what it looks like right now. It, it looks currently like a wash. Um, it, it does. And,

you know, Dwayne Jetsky and the chaps reminding me. Yeah, well, I'm just, you know, I'm not saying

right now, but yeah, like, I, I just think, I think you're plugging those guys into similar

types of roles and they've both succeeded plus, you know what I mean? I, I think you're,

you're really splitting hairs. If you asked me, like, who would you rather have on your team? I

think for me, if I'm building a team, I, I'd probably go with Renton. Um, I, I'd probably take

him a little bit ahead of, of natures and, and Renton's got a cup and, um, he's, he's been all the

way to the, to the top of the mountain. And I, I put some serious weight into that. Um, I also

think that, uh, in my opinion, I think Renton is a meaner player, which I love. Yeah. Oh,

that's right. Renton's been like the villain this year. Remember? I like, uh, I, I like that,

I liked that he's a meaner player and I liked that more going into playoffs with a meaner

player. So that's what I would do. I think Renton too, like as good as natures has been,

I still don't know if like natures is the guy who, like, I did, did, did Renton, uh, he might

have been second on the team and points that you're the one that cup, um, in the playoffs. I'll have

to go and check that. But, um, I don't know, just just a fun conversation. I feel like to have

if you plug and play the two of them, obviously, they're going to meet each other in the playoffs

for what it seems like. Right now Dallas is catching up playing really well. Dallas might

actually end up winning that division, um, with how good they have been. I think they're 801

since the return of the break. Let me just double check that. I had it right now. 801.

801. I think goes out before the break as well. I mean, they're, they're nippin at the

Av's heels right now. But the fans, do you, do you want to be this good right now or do you

want to be this good in like another few weeks? Like, can they sustain this or, or is there a dip

ahead? And that's always the worry when you go into new career mode a little bit too early.

I'm not saying they are. They might sustain it, right? And we talked about this on DFL on Friday.

Like they're getting a shitload of depth help. They're getting a lot of guys like Sam Steele with

career years. Um, and so will that continue into the playoffs? We shall see. Johnny, we shall see.

Let me just read one thing quick and then I'll get to the bet. They're underlying numbers. I know

you're not the biggest fan, but these, these are different than like expected. This is actual.

So, uh, the high danger chances against a five on five since the return. Dallas is first only

allowing 8.1 high danger chances at even strength. And those aren't, those aren't fairy tale numbers.

Those are results. Yeah. That's what I said. They're fact. That's what I said. Yeah. So I don't

have an issue with those numbers. And then offensively, they're third and high danger chances for

with 14.35 a game. So like right now, you know, offense at five on five, they're driving the play

and defensively, they're shutting things down. Like, Dallas, yeah. Dallas might be the, uh,

the team to get to the car. When car gets all the PR. And, and Dallas is going to end up with Minnesota

in the first round. I'm not sure. Yeah. So you think they're going to catch Colorado.

They might. Yeah. With how they're playing 1000%. Um, and then, and then they could end up with Edmonton

in the first round. Yeah. They could. Yeah. You know, I mean, you know, or, or, or, or it could be,

you know, San Jose. I mean, I'm just saying like the oilers at 75 points, you know, the mammoth,

um, obviously like, and the crack in our currently holding the two wild card spots. But

I'm just saying like if the oilers don't get gold tending down the stretch, they could find themselves

in a wild card spot. So, um, all right, Johnny, let's get to bet 365. I gotta, I gotta take slow

in the soccer practice here. Yeah. Okay. So our bet 365 better than night, whatever your bet is,

it's never ordinary at bet 365 down the app and get in on the game. You must be 19 or older. This

is the most obvious bet on the planet. If you are a hockey fan, our temmie panaren makes his return

to MSG tonight to take on the Rangers, the L.A. King's battling for a playoff spot.

Panaren has been scoring over the past two games too. Has goals against the islanders and the devils

on this trip. So you got to think he'll come out wanting to score a goal tonight at MSG is a

little bit of payback. So our temmie panaren at plus 170 anytime goal scorer. That's the better

than night. I'll send it back to you. COVID wrap up the show. Yeah. He said that they did not want him

when they were asking what the offers did look like for our temmie panaren. He made it seem like

there were actually no offers. So I'm going to talk to him right now on your way out the door.

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We've got a full week ahead. I believe Jeff Merrick will be joining us tomorrow for tomorrow show.

So we'll see what happens tonight as we figure out what topics to dive into tomorrow.

And we will continue to make our way through here. We talked about it off the top called Hudson

debut coming in the NHL this week. So a third Hudson brother to play in the national hockey league

this season. We have the NCAA tournament creeping right on our heels. I've got the the

selection show this weekend. Johnny and then right off to Colorado for the Loveland Regional.

So that is all happening right now. We will keep you updated on all of it. We have a busy week ahead.

Johnny's back from England. We'll ask you a little bit more about that tomorrow. So everybody,

we hope you have a great day and we will see you as we always do 9 a.m. tomorrow.