Going Rogue with Lara Logan - IS THE IRS LEGAL? Former IRS Special Agent Joseph Banister Does Not Think So - Find Out Why | Ep74 | Going Rogue with Lara Logan

If you're living and working in the United States, you can't find any law that makes you liable

to pay an income tax on your earnings. It's not there at all.

And yet, once you submit a tax return, you have now really created a contract between yourself

and the IRS, which now gives them authority to determine how much taxes they say you owe them.

Is that also what you're saying?

Yes, you're presenting a form that they've created, but they've created for other circumstances,

but you've filled out the form.

Yes.

You say, I owe the tax and the IRS has the absolute authority to assess the tax that you present as that you owe.

Welcome to this week's episode of Going Rogue with Lara Logan. My guest is a man who has been known

to America for many years. You may not recognize his name, but with tax season coming up,

you definitely want to hear what he has to say. His name is Joseph Bannister,

and he is one of the original whistleblowers in this country. It was many years ago,

more than three, well, almost three decades when he was at the IRS as a special agent and criminal

investigator and became a whistleblower. In fact, he had three and a half very successful years

around three years, very successful at the IRS, and then he was tasked with looking into some

things that changed his perspective completely. The next two and a half years were very different

from his career leading up to that. What is so interesting to me about Joseph Bannister is that

he has really endured so much over the years. Cancel culture is very familiar to all of us now,

and in many respects, it's a badge of honor. But when Joseph Bannister stood up and told the

American people the truth, he did so without any real protection or cover. He took on one of the

agencies that is perhaps the most terrifying to millions of Americans, the power of the IRS.

It's this thing that we all fear. What's interesting about Joseph Bannister is that he has a number

of brothers and a father who are all in different areas of law enforcement. He comes from it's really

enforcing the law is in his DNA. Joe, welcome to the show. I just thought that it was so interesting

when I looked into your background to see that for you, more than the average person,

it really went against the grain, against your family, against your DNA, against your history,

to stand up and speak out against the agency whose rules and regulations and ostensibly laws

you were committed and took an oath to uphold. Yes, thanks for having me, Laura. Indeed, it was quite a gut

punch to come across this information investigated. If I had any bias at all, it was that this information

couldn't possibly be true. These claims couldn't be true. It really did punch me in the gut and then

created a whole new life that I never expected to have. What people who are not familiar with you,

the headline here is that you maintain and believe very strongly and have maintained this belief

for many years now that the way the tax code is written, it does not place liability, does not

make American citizens and American workers liable for income taxes. In fact, in your view,

income tax is unconstitutional. Is that right? Almost. The first part of what you said is absolutely

true that throughout all these decades, the Congress has never passed a law making the average

American liable to pay the federal income tax and the IRS and their own instruction manuals tell

the public that you have to be liable for a tax in order to be required to file a tax return.

The income tax laws are absolutely constitutional as written. It's that in the way that they're actually

administered and enforced where they go outside the constitution because when an agency isn't

trying to enforce laws that aren't on the books, then that's where they're outside of the constitution.

But the laws themselves are written absolutely constitutionally.

So can you explain what you mean by that specifically?

Well, so in the Internal Revenue Code is known as Title 26. There's various titles to

throw all kinds of laws, immigration laws and customs laws and tax laws. And so Title 26 of the,

I think there's 54 codes altogether deals with taxes and then subtitle A, you know, the subset of

Title 26 is are the income tax laws. Now days when you can search through a computer and in my day,

you had to actually flip through pages of things. Now you can do word searches and you can simply

search for words like liable, made liable is liable any variation that you want and you can find

each and every instance where someone or something or some corporation is made liable to pay the

income tax. And liability is a very important pivotal issue because it basically means responsible,

you know, who's the person that's actually responsible? You know, if I'm in Nevada and the Minnesota

taxing authorities come to me and say, hey, you owe a tax and like, wait, you know, how am I liable

for that? How am I responsive? So really all federal laws, all laws are going to designate someone

as responsible to obey the law and to carry out its provisions. So that's where there's a very,

and it's not an oversight, you know, in my view and of course the research proves that the reason

that the average American isn't liable for the tax is that they weren't required to pay the tax,

only individual, what they call a withholding agent is a particular person that's liable for

the income tax. Simple scenario would be if someone like Andréable Shelley came to America and

he's an Italian citizen, but he's going to go to a concert in Las Vegas and a promoter's going to

pay him, you know, five million bucks to sing at the concert, then that promoter who pays Andréable

Shelley would be liable for an income tax on Butchelli's earnings and that person who's a withholding

agent in the eyes of the government would withhold up to 30% of the payment to Andréa. So that would be

a simple example of how, you know, liability for the income tax actually works and practice what

happens is the American people who don't know better, they're told by the media, you know, fill out

this tax return and swear under penalty perjury that you owe the money, well then the IRS does have

the lawful authority, it's in the statutes, to assess an income tax on your tax return that

where you swear you owe the money, they have the authority to assess tax returns that you submit

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Lara. Be prepared and do not be scared. So what you're saying, and I mean, I want to be very clear

you have because obviously there's lots of pushback, right? There's lots of people that say this is

nonsense. It's conspiracy. It's it's made up. It's not true and don't mess with the IRS because you'll

pay, right? That they'll come for you. And this is going to cost you. So don't believe these

cooks, right? And so to understand exactly what it is, you're saying that the way the, are we

talking about the way the tax code is written, right? Yes, the laws in the tax code. Yes.

Right. You're saying it doesn't apply. It doesn't specifically mention American citizens.

Right. If you're living and working in the United States, you can't find any law that makes you

liable to pay an income tax on your earnings. It's not there at all. And yet, once you submit a tax

return, you have now really sort of created a contract between yourself and the IRS, which now gives

them authority to determine how much taxes they say you owe them. Is that is that also what you're

saying? Yes, you're presenting a form that they've created, but they've created for other circumstances,

but you filled out the form. Yes. You say, I owe the tax and the IRS has the absolute authority to

assess the tax that you present as that you owe. Now, you, you came out with this in what,

1999, 88, 89, 99 February, 99 was when you left the IRS, you were featured by 60 minutes in a

story that I recognized that you may read my former colleague from 60 minutes, too. She did a

story with you. It was about employers not withholding tax from their employees. And of course,

the IRS commission at the time was interviewed. And he said, you know, these people are all committing

crimes. And they're doing something terribly wrong. And we're coming for them, right? They

shouldn't do this. I just wonder, it's all these years later. And you've never been to jail. In

fact, I want to read you something that you wrote. You have online where you have a rumble account,

agent for truth. And this is where people can find this 60 minute story if they want to watch it.

But what you wrote here was really poignant to me. I was very moved by it. And I just,

I want to give you a chance to explain what you meant by this. And I'm going to quote you here.

I learned the hard way that when legacy media pays attention to you and your efforts,

their intentions may not be to serve the best interests of the public at large. In this case,

the IRS and DOJ were criminally investigating me at the time of this 60 minutes report. And so

the legacy media's job was to inform the public about me and my efforts so that when I was later

indicted, prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced, I would be more widely recognized by the public as

another poster child going to prison for challenging the IRS and the federal income tax system.

The scheme hatched by the media and government tag team did not go so well for them. I was indeed

indicted and criminally prosecuted in June of 2005, but was deservedly acquitted of all criminal

charges leveled against me. Watch out when the legacy media is interested in your mission. In my

personal experience, I have found they are rarely interested in truth and justice.

Those are your words. Those are my words. It's interesting how when you pray to the Lord for

some inspiration. Not you thinking or talking. When I hear that again, I'm thinking, wow,

did I really write that? It's pretty powerful. I learned the hard way. You think to yourself,

oh, 60 minutes is interested in the story. They've uncovered all kinds of corruption and fraud and

wow, this is great. Not for any aggrandizzo to myself, just like, wow, people will hear the message.

And it's like, no, there's other agendas cooking there behind the scenes.

So why do you say that? How did you come to that realization? What are you basing that on?

Well, I mean, for 60 minutes specifically, the producer, when they're behind the scenes before

anything is broadcasted, but what do you do with your kids? We want to portray you as just a regular

guy. Well, I skateboard with my kids. That was back when I had brown hair. I'd skateboard with

my young, my young sons. And then when it actually aired the 60 minutes episode aired,

when they introduce me in the segment, I'm spinning around on a skateboard doing 360s,

like I'm just some, you know, skateboarder. I don't know. Yeah. So they're just the the way that

it's presented as you can kind of tell there's a, there's an agenda, at least I thought, I thought so

because I saw the behind the scenes with 60 minutes working with me. And then I see the final

product. And it's like, okay, something, something happened there while they were making that sausage

in the back room. It's called saying anything they can to get you to do whatever they need you to do.

And then presenting it as they see it without, I mean, without any regard for whatever you might

have thought, right? I mean, they don't come to people and say and tell them the truth. And that

was something I always used to say to my team is, you know, why did you write that in the letter? No,

don't put that in there because that's a lie. Like, that's not true. I mean, obviously, if you want

to take on something difficult, you're not, you're, you can't just leave it out. You can't ignore it.

You're not going to make the whole focus of your request about that one negative thing. But you have

to be honest that that's, you know, how you're looking at it. I mean, the story on balance wasn't,

it wasn't critical, but they did have the counted, which I think was the professor from

Georgetown who said that everything, you know, that you were saying was hogwash, right?

Hogwash was the word that she used. So is it hogwash all these years later? Has it held up over time?

I think the facts definitely have held up over time. And, you know, I've all I've ever wanted was

for people to look at both sides, look at the evidence. And I think, you know, certainly that

25, 26 years that I've been battling with the IRS has proven to me that it wasn't about me being

right. It was just about what's the truth. And the way the government has, has acted how they've

refused, suspiciously refused to discuss these issues, you know, bed over backwards to escape

having to address any of the questions. You know, as you know, as an investigative reporter,

it's like when people don't want to talk to you, you know, it's there's a there's a reason for

that. And it's because they don't want people to know the truth. And so meanwhile, if they can,

you know, destroy your reputation in the meantime, you know, a nice criminal conviction and some time

in jail really works well to ruin your reputation. Rather than answer my questions, that's the government's

decision was like, well, let's just destroy this guy will make it you'd be a great, we need

poster children all the time. And so if he wants to volunteer, you know, let's hammer him into prison

and then we'll just move on. And so I just, I didn't think that having taken an oath to support and

defend the Constitution on day one of my IRS days, certainly all the treasury regulations,

everything is about feriding out and reporting fraud, waste and abuse, you know, to actually run

the government that the citizens expect to run. And so when I began to adhere to those kinds of

policies and expectations is when that's when I ran into the biggest grief.

Okay, so what specifically did you run into that opened your eyes and changed your mind so profoundly?

Well, as typical of criminal investigators, at least back in the 90s, probably still the case,

I'm driving around in my government car, doing investigations, seeking out witnesses, gathering

evidence. And so there was no prohibition against listening to talk radio. And so there's a talk

radio station still out there in the San Francisco Bay Area, KSFO. And the host, who was a very trustworthy

guy or seemed to be had a woman on his show named DV Kid. And DV Kid was talking about the income

tax among many other topics. And she basically said that, you know, the income tax is voluntary.

The vast majority of Americans aren't required to pay it by law. They're fooled into paying it.

They're intimidated into paying it. But when you actually look at the laws, they're not there to

require paying it. I would have normally dismissed that kind of a claim. But because it was made on

a radio show that I'd already listened to for several years, the host was very trustworthy.

Everything else he talked about checked out. Well, I would have this crazy lady talking about the

income tax like this. And so that's what led me to the latter two years of my five and a half years

with the IRS off-duty evenings and weekends, driving my wife crazy, missing out on a lot of my

kids, you know, early years to not only do a 50 hour a week job, but also determine, investigate

the federal income tax to determine, you know, am I on the right team here? Am I with the white

hats or am I actually with the black hats? And so that was the beginning of it, the two-year period

at the end of the two years. I'm like, well, I've seen enough evidence to indicate there's a problem

here. So what should I do? Well, I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution. At the time,

I was a certified public accountant. The Treasury rules and regulations said speak up. Everything said

speak up except my fear. Yes. How will they react? Do you think you're your faith played a role in

that? Because I know you have a... I know you're a Catholic and you have a strong faith. You make

no secret of that. And I just, you know, for myself, I know that I tend to worry what God is going

to say to me when I stand before Him, more than what am I fellow men or man is going to say to me,

right? Because I don't work for them, right? I mean, when you try to find the truth and you try

to do what's right, that's something that's bigger than all of us. Yes. I think the same way.

And in fact, I went to a high school, a Jesuit preparatory, college preparatory, and the motto there

was to be a man for others. And I don't want, you know, like, I'm not some saint, but I mean,

when there's these little themes and, you know, statues and emblem, you know, I pay attention and

I look at them and I'm like, okay, well, what would a person of integrity do with a motto like that?

Be a man for others. And so as I went through college and then into my career, you know, those

things stuck with me, just like on day one of the IRS, taking an oath to support and defend the

Constitution. Well, what's that about? Why do I have to take an oath? Who required that? You know,

it's kind of a... Maybe that's why I was an investigator. I asked those questions of myself and others.

So, you know, I just basically tried to, like, these are the rules. I should try to follow them.

I'm getting paid to, you know, have integrity to report the truth. And then when I began to

speak what I believe to be the truth, even to my own, I are a supervisors. There was this

hesitation. Nobody wanted to talk. You know, they basically showed me the door. Say, well, here's

your paperwork to attend to your resignation. We're not talking about this. Even though all of those

special agents also took an oath, also were governed by the same, you know, requirements and

procedures. So... Well, it's the same sort of thing where you are punished for telling the truth

and standing up and doing the right thing. And you're rewarded if you surrender or you just go

along with it or you look the other way or you enable it or you participate, you know, one way or

another, right? You're punished for doing the right thing and rewarded for doing the wrong thing.

Yes. But Christ warned us of that. So... Well, that's true. We had fair warning.

And I wonder, what is it cost you speaking out like that over the years now? When you look back

at it all because the tax, you know, I mean, people are still paying their taxes. People still

believe the majority of Americans are still terrified of the IRS. And although there are more people

probably today than ever before who are willing to listen to what you have to say and who might

believe it, it's still... You haven't won. Well, I guess patience has been... Patience is a virtue

and it's one that, you know, thanks be to God. I've been given a little dose of. So I've seen

progress and I also believe that when injustice is happening that eventually justice wins over.

If you take the, you know, the Japanese Americans who were interned during rule were interned during

rule were two are slavery or any of the myriad of issues that are out there. And all people that fought,

you know, decade after decade, year after year, century after century in some cases. And eventually,

you know, the just outcome won out. So I've always figured that I'm just a link in a chain.

I've got a job to do. I have to do my job. Be a good example as best I can. And then when it's time

to hand it over to someone else or we've, you know, completely futile and never went anywhere,

it's not up to me. Just it's up to God and it's up to whether we deserve justice collectively or not,

maybe or how long we have to wait for it. So that's kind of the way I've viewed it. I just,

I don't give up. Far as suffering, it's more my family, probably that that suffered.

You know, the government certainly knows how to make people suffer. But I think I've been blessed.

You know, as you mentioned, like with the trial, got some deserved justice there. And

By finally being acquitted because when it was all happening, didn't you have some issues at

at school for your children and with the other parents and you kind of had to step in there

and explain yourself? Yeah, I mean, the the scuttle butt around the elementary school was at,

oh, you know, he's with the FBI, even though it was the IRS, but you know, it's special agents

or special agents and all the different agencies. And then, oh, did you hear he was indicted?

Yeah. And then the fish story is like bank robbery. And you know, who knows what kind of things

people were saying? So I had to compose a letter to my children's basically all the parents and

just saying, well, this is this is the truth or this is the light, this is what, you know, the life

we're living. And so just to quality rumors, you know, I kind of let the word be known as to what

was really going on. My boss at the IRS was also a parishioner at that at the parish of where

the school was St. Martin of Tours in San Jose. So it's really like strange how so many of the

people were family and health fellow parishioners and you know, like even the San Jose has a million

people in it, you know, it's very close in the community. So difficult when people think that

you've become a cook or a tax protester or antique government or all these things.

You treated like you're crazy. Yes. So you just I just tried to be patient about it and think,

well, I think the facts will went out eventually. Well, do you think you're closer now and then

you've ever been in a sense? Because I mean, President Donald Trump has been making noises about

shutting down the IRS. There's a there's an obvious shift from internal revenue service to the

external revenue service, which is the tariffs. And he cut $10 billion from the IRS's budget.

So do you take those as positive signs? I do and I don't. I mean, that kind of rhetoric has been

going on forever. I mean, all the research and investigation that I did been going on for decades

and decades, you know, politicians promising an end of the income tax and I'm going to fight, you know,

yeah. And it just never happens. But I mean, I probably more encouraged than ever.

The most encouragement I receive is just from the people themselves because I think that's

the only way it's really going to change. If us as Americans gather together and band together and

say we've had enough, you know, that has worked in the past. And I think the people are finally

realizing in mass, I mean, like just how much waste there is. Well, yeah, that's a, you know,

that's a huge issue, right? Is that right now the American taxpayer is just enraged by the

level of fraud, waste abuse, the amount of money that is going, you know, out of the country,

the amount of money that's been stolen, all the illegitimate uses of their tax dollars.

I mean, we've never really seen anything like it. And it's just still astonishing to me that

people could go off the doge because they're exposing fraud. I mean, you're the money that you work

so hard to earn is being stolen from you misappropriated. And you're going to be upset with the

people exposing the fact that this has been going on for a very long time. You know, it's so,

I guess it's just an indicator, a measure of where we are today that people are so divided

politically that something that should be a no brainer, you know, across the board. If you took

the parties out of it and you just presented that fraud, how could anyone say that they want that

misuse of their tax dollars? Nobody in their right mind would do that. Yeah, you'd think, I mean,

if a Democrat or a Republican went to the oil changer facility and the people didn't change their

oil and they found out that they just put the same oil right back in. Everybody would be enraged.

It wouldn't matter if you're a Democrat or Republican. And yet you find out that, you know, hundreds

of billions, if not trillions, are stolen, abused, disappear. And people are like, well,

I, you know, the Republicans are in power. So I'm a Democrat. I can't complain about that now. I

just, I don't get the mentality. And I don't get how people can be driving home from work. And,

and their whole week is ruined by somebody that cuts them off. But when it comes to getting ripped

off by the hundreds of billions over decades with the income tax, it's a snoozer. I, you know,

anyway, so that's why I just keep on plugging away. And we'll see if, you know, everybody joins

us eventually. Well, I don't know if you're a betting man. But if you, if you are, what would

you be willing to, to put a wager on whether or not you will see this corrected in your lifetime?

I mean, how old are you now? I just turned 63. And from one I can tell, you've always been

pretty athletic. You seem to be in good shape. So you, you maybe have, you know, a few more decades

on there. What are the chances you're going to see this resolved?

I'm hopeful. I think that, you know, frankly, the big weapons are prayer,

you know, asking God for forgiveness, things that, you know, God can make things happen

in less than a wink, right? Yeah. But it's just a matter of, do we, do we deserve it as

at time? And so I think with, with seeking God's guidance, cleaning up our own lives,

those, these kinds of things can happen very rapidly. So I think that everybody can pitch in by

just being a good example, cleaning up your life, spreading the word. And then God can, can

put it all together amazingly. So what are the questions that you have wanted the federal government

to answer that they have not yet answered in all this time?

Well, I think the key one is that I discovered, you know, I, the last tax return that I filed was

1998. And then it didn't seem like a big deal in 2001 or 2006 or 2016. And here we are in

2026. And it's still the case. And I didn't stop filing federal tax returns because of some

civil disobedience. It was that I believed what I was reading. You know, I believed the evidence

that indicated that I, Joe Bannister, was not liable for the federal income tax liability,

according to the courts, is an important foundational, you know, piece of the puzzle.

And so I went to the IRS as an IRS employee as a criminal investigator and said, hey,

can you show me where I've gone wrong here in doing these court cases, these, these laws?

And they're like, no, we don't want to talk about it. And then after I left the IRS through the media

or through letters to the IRS, I continued to seek answers to my questions. So I basically have

to just go on what I know to be true. And so here we are 26 years later. So having not filed tax

returns, you know, when you talked about me being prosecuted, I was indicted in 2004. So I had

already been gone from the IRS five years. And yet there was no charges relating to not filing

a tax return, which as a former criminal investigator, I thought was odd, right? I mean, yeah.

Why wouldn't you throw the book at Joe and include the fact that he already hadn't filed tax

returns for five years? Well, they went through other to other charges that had nothing to do with

my personal circumstances, thought that was odd. Then they also went for criminal first and then

civil harassment later when I was acquitted. And in the civil harassment, I get these IRS notices

saying that you owe all this money. And I did FOIA requests to determine, well, what's the back

story? What are the IRS computer systems say about these notices? And I come to find out that the

IRS computer systems were actually being fraudulent computer codes were actually put into the IRS

computer systems in order to generate these so-called assessments and the notices telling me that I

owed a bunch of money. I basically refer to it as the 1040A scam. And I hope, you know, I don't want

people's eyes to glaze over because your shows are always so interesting. So I don't want to do a

bunch of wonkest. No, but it's important. It's important to understand. I mean, if essentially what

you're saying is, you know, when when people get these letters from the IRS saying you owe all

this money, you don't have to just take that at face value. You can you can actually, you know,

ask to see how they arrive at those numbers. That's important. But also what you discovered personally

investigating it is that they were fraudulent codes. So can you explain what you mean by fraudulent

codes? Yes. So there's, you know, okay. So Joe's claim is that the IRS doesn't have the authority

to be making people pay the income tax, right? So then lo and behold, in their computer systems,

there are various codes that the IRS can put into the to your case to mirror or have a code for

what your circumstances are. So you'd think if Joe had a requirement to file and pay, they would

use that kind of a code. Yeah. But instead the the IRS uses a code for that I filed a 1040A

form and that I requested that the IRS calculate my income tax for me, which you did not, which I

did not. I didn't file a 1040 or 1040A or any any form whatsoever. Yet there's a code in there

that I filed a 1040A and requested that the IRS calculates the tax for me. Well, if I had done

that, then it would make sense that I get an IRS notice saying, here's your tax, right? Because

I read it. But I didn't request it. The IRS computers claim that I did and that there's a specific

code, a document code in the IRS computer system. It's a document code 10, which doesn't matter to

the audience. Well, it does if someone finds it document code 10. There's a 14 digit code called

a document locator number or DLN. And in that DLN, the 14 digits, there's two digits that relate to

the kind of form that's at the center of the controversy. And so that's where I could I determined

and not me. I mean, this is from the IRS's own manuals. This is from the FOIA response that I get

from the IRS, right? I'm not making any of this stuff up. I'm just digging deep into the

foundations. And so I call it the 1040A scam because the IRS agents who I don't think even know

what they're doing, they're just following their little procedures. But those procedures end up

concocting a fake scenario that Joe Bannister filed a 1040A and requested the IRS to calculate the

tax. And that was the basis for the notices that I received after I was acquitted. And then I

come to find out from, for example, came on at Freedom Law School. Payment, Mutaha de Freedom

Law School, yes. That he, he, you know, as you recognize, he's been helping people for over 30

years learning health. And he had, he was able to show me hundreds of letters that basically

are evidence of the 1040A scam. And they're from all over the country and they're from years from

back in the early 2000s to the last year or two. And that scam is basically using, using computer

codes that completely alter the basis, the legal basis in which the IRS is operating, correct?

Right. The code portrays circumstances that don't exist.

Well, I mean, which basically saying you filed a return when you didn't.

Right. And the only way that you can find that out is like my case, the guinea pig, I wasn't filing

a tax return. That opens the door for the IRS to, to, to perpetrate the 1040A scam. If you file

a tax return and you swear to go the money, the IRS doesn't have to, you know, go to that,

go to that weapon. So that's how I found out. And then of course, when I look at all the evidence

that came on as accumulated or many others, I've seen clients and people throughout the public,

same pattern, same pattern. If they don't file, then they get a notice that says, you know,

it's about a 1040A. They never filed a 1040A. It has nothing to do with their circumstances,

yet the IRS claims they owe a bunch of money. So as far as it, I think a smoking gun

proof that came on or myself for, you know, we're not full of it. We're not phony. We're on the

right track is because the IRS actually has to lie to their own computer systems to get those,

get those numbers for those that don't cooperate. And it's fraud. I mean, it's just out and out fraud.

If a government worker is going to put in a fraudulent computer code and that

generates an assessment that leads to you losing your house or losing your bank account or whatever

it might be, it's absolute fraud that the government is perpetrating on the people.

And so like, is that a problem? Do you have any sense of how long do you think this has been

going on for? I'd say at least that I probably, probably 50 years, but I mean, the evidence that I

have shows that it was going on in the 90s. So, you know, most people don't have your experience

as a special agent for the IRS and don't have your law enforcement background and don't have

the capacity to fight this and they don't have the knowledge to fight it.

True. And I mean, I've always been, I'm not the Pied Piper, you know,

leading people one way or the other. I basically just show them what happened to me that the

don't went the next time somebody tells you that the income tax is a scam or been forced beyond

with the laws allow. Listen to the person at least, at least hear them out. Don't dismiss them

as a cook. You know, because I've been called a cook, but it's like, well, when you look at the IRS's

track record versus mine, you know, I'll hold up my reputation and conduct to theirs any time.

What do you mean by that? Just in terms of the level, I might

could write volumes on the fraud and deceit and, you know, there's a inspector general,

I'm sure you're well aware of all the agencies have inspector generals, the IRS too.

And it has an acronym of TIGTA, TIGTA, Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration.

And there are hundreds of reports where TIGTA has come in and slapped the IRS's wrist on just,

you know, massive fraud and malfeasance and just this egregious conduct. And again, it's not me saying

it. It's the inspector general that oversees the IRS. So, and then nothing is done about it.

Rarely. I mean, when I was a special agent, one of our jobs was to go to very dangerous neighborhoods

because we were harmed and gather information about the earned income credit, earned income tax credit,

EITC. And we, we in the criminal investigation division every year would issue a report showing

massive fraud. Congress would get a copy of the report and then every year increase

the amount of the earned income tax credit and never go after the fraud. That was in the 90s.

So, you know, at some point you do kind of watch, like, am I really making a dent here?

Well, am I really doing anything here? Yeah. And of course, all the, I was, I specialized in

money laundering investigations because I didn't want to be pigeoned holes as the CPA doing, you know,

tax investigations. And yet seeing the, you know, what went on in the money laundering end of it.

And then hearing these investigators talk about what the CIA is up to in terms of, you know,

drug smuggling and I'm like, wow, I might, yeah, I might really make it any kind of a dent here.

What's what's what are really the purposes for all these things?

Did you make a dent, do you think?

I think I'm making a dent now or the last 26 years.

When I work for the IRS and now because you're, you know, you're really constrained as to what

you can speak about. And I don't have any, I'm not throwing shade on, you know, I'm not anti-government,

not anti-tax. As you mentioned about my family, you know, my, my dad was a public works,

the city of San Jose was an in law enforcement. But, you know, a brother retired from the California

highway patrol, another brother just retired from San Jose police department, San Jose California.

And then a brother that's still a battalion chief in the daily city California fire department.

So, you know, credit to my parents, they, you know, raised us to have integrity.

And we try our best to stick with that. Again, not any better than anyone else.

Just, you know, we, I believe in government, but I believe government should have a,

you know, an inkling towards some honesty. And do you believe that people should pay taxes?

I mean, that even if the code specifically as it is laid out, let's say you're right. And it does

not specifically mention these people, therefore, you know, these people are not liable. These are,

you know, these are legal arguments. And I'm not being dismissive because the Supreme Court has

actually weighed in on a number of these issues in the past. And been very specific in precedent,

right? There are cases where they've ruled that in order for it to include the language to be

inclusive of certain things, it has to be, it has to actually name them and state them. And so,

you know, this is, I understand the legal argument behind it. But what about the view that look,

you know, just because they didn't, you know, put all the exact right words, doesn't change the

fact that the spirit and letter of the law is that it's obvious as citizens of the country

who are earning here and working here in all the rest of it that we're all supposed to pay taxes.

And that's how we fund our government. What do you say to people who believe that?

Well, the, as I kind of mentioned earlier, the, you know, income tax laws are absolutely

constitutional as written. If everyone tomorrow realized that the average American is not required

to pay it, the income tax or the IRS wouldn't necessarily have to go away. You know, there are

circumstances where there's an income tax that's required to be paid. So, what are those

circumstances? Like, like I mentioned about a non-resident, or Americans who go and work abroad,

and I don't know how many there are, but I'm sure there's millions. So, there are definitely

circumstances where the income tax laws as they're written, you know, would still be applicable and

could still raise revenue. And I don't, I don't have a problem with that. I don't have a problem

with the constitution. I don't have a problem with the laws as written. I have a problem with an

agency going outside the law and then lying about it. And the proof is that if they have to actually

lied, if the IRS has to lie to their own computer systems. Yeah, not good. Pretty good indication

that they're, they're breaking the law. And you've said in the past that the computer systems are

completely outdated. Is that still the case? Yes. I mean, they do have, they have multiple

systems, but the core system that generates those notices that most people get is, it's called

the individual master file, IMF. And it's not, you know, the time for the movie. But the IMF

database, it's back there in Martinsburg, Virginia. And there's still these antiquated systems.

And my theory, which I have some proof, but not a lot, but my theory is the reason that they're

still using computer systems from the 60s is because when they try to upgrade them,

they have to speak with their consultants and their computer people. And then how are you going

to communicate? Well, we got this little thing we do at the codes. I see. I see. That worked really

cool in 1960 and 1985. But how do we do that today? And that's why I think they spend billions and

billions and billions on new computer systems, yet they still cling to a system designed and implemented

in the 1960s. So what do you think the average American, you know, listening to this? I know

you're not going to advise people to not pay their taxes. But what's your best advice

to people? Because it's, you know, a lot of people are feeling right now, like, I just get abused.

I work really hard. I've always paid my taxes. And now we find out that there's all this fraud,

and no one, or not no one, there have been people, you know, on a lower level, held accountable.

But by and large, you know, a lot of the Inspector Generals have looked the other way.

Some of them have pointed it out. But even when they've pointed it out, it hasn't done anything.

You're talking about fraud that is going back decades. And it's not shrinking. It's growing.

Then you've got all the political things that your taxes are being, you know,

fraud waste and abuse are being taken from you to fund things that are, you know, profoundly

and fundamentally counter to what the majority of American voters demanded at the polls, right?

And so what do you say to all of these people who are super frustrated, but they're like,

I'm not going to stop paying my taxes. Are you nuts? I last thing I need is the IRS coming after me.

Yeah. Well, I mean, has, you know, like, sorry if I'm referring to another interview,

and that makes it difficult. But I mean, how Paymon recognized in your interview with Paymon

Mota Hede that the IRS already has a huge compliance problem. And yes, I do not, you know,

like I'm not the Pied Piper. Like, why are you still filing tax returns? I do think we're reaching

a very critical stage. Like people are going to have to decide, you know, am I going to have a good

report, you know, on judgment day, but also a good report to my children and grandchildren.

You know, am I the boomer that just said, well, I don't want to, you know, I want to feather my

nest and I want to take care of myself. Or did you, did you just show a little spine? And like,

write a letter to your congressman, tell 10 people to tell 10 people about the syncum tax issue or

any issue. I mean, just, you know, get in and help, you know, row the, row the canoe a little bit.

And I just think that especially older folks like myself, we need to do that. We need to

up our game. And of course, as I mentioned before, prayer, you know, God can put amazing things

together whenever he's ready to do so. But we as humans, if we're trying to make everything work

and organize everything, you know, we're part of the plan. We're the hands and feet that have

to implement it, but the guidance comes from above. So I'd say prayer, patience, being, you know,

pride in the sense of we are Americans. There's a millions of people that want to come here.

And they want to come here for a reason. Those of us like myself who were born and raised here,

you know, people like Paymon put us to shame. I mean, they know what freedom is because they

haven't had it. So we have freedom. And let's, let's try to retain it. And let's try to

enhance it. Let's not lose it and have to start from scratch. And so I just, you know, want people

to be, want them to reflect on the blessings that we have. And let's work a little harder to

keep them and enhance them, not lose them and have to start all over again.

What do you see as the impact of allowing this system to continue the way it has been? What has been

the cost to the average American taxpayer? I think, I mean, huge domestic problems, you know,

they're all about that wealth. And I don't mean wealth, because then you can just sit on your butt

and do nothing. I mean, just, you know, having a little equity in your home or being able to take

a vacation or get an extra half bath so that you're not all using one bathroom or, you know,

just that kind of is being sucked away and has been sucked away for generations.

And so that has a cost. It has a cost in divorce. It has a cost in both parents having to work

and children being raised by, you know, a government school. So I think that the effects are

profound. It's just that people maybe don't even have time to sit back and think about it.

But, you know, once you do think about it, you can recognize it's a huge drain on humanity.

And is it, where's that money going? And if it's going to a bunch of fraud and waste or interest

on a debt that just keeps going up into the tens of trillions, you know, maybe we ought to take a

look at it and see how to stop the bleeding. Well, you were acquitted in, I think it was 2005

when your case went to court. So what has happened since has the IRS continue to come after you?

Well, so I was acquitted of the, there were four felony counts in, I was indicted on June, I'm

sorry, November 2004. And then my trials in June of 2005. And I was acquitted of all four counts.

Then in 2010, so about five years later, a second criminal investigation was opened up on me.

And again, learned through FOIA, the Freedom of Information Act. And that investigation lasted

about seven months. And then it was terminated. And so really, you know, since then, as far as what I

know about nothing, but what that's been 16 years since the second criminal investigation that

never didn't go to prosecution. So I don't know. I mean, they could still come off to you now

if they wanted to. I think they could, but I mean, they've had 26 years to really do some stupid,

suspicious stuff. And so I'm not acting, you know, arrogant about it. I don't, not a fun

it's not a fun escape. You know, I can, I can assure you. No, it's definitely not. I also, again,

I believe that I'm, I as an American, I'm deserving of a certain modicum of, of conduct in my

government. And if you're just going to lie to me and make, you know, just, and make me miserable

to make me comply, then I guess we're going to have to, you know, up the ante. But all I've ever

done is just asked questions and had these really suspicious refusals to answer. And then as,

you know, the internet has gotten more ubiquitous and people are able to, and freedom of speech,

like on X has, you know, blossomed. Other people seem to also have those questions. Sure. How did

this all start? Joe, I, you know, I mean, I know we goes back to the 1913 Federal Reserve Act.

And then, of course, the, uh, when taxes were first introduced and in give tax, it was supposed

to be temporary, right? Yeah. So 1913, well, there was a income tax attempt in the late 1800s that

was declared unconstitutional. So for a 2030 year period, they went back to the drawing board,

you know, the, the bankers and everyone. How do we, we need to extract more money from, from the

people? And so in 1913, uh, the 16th Amendment was proposed and offered out for ratification.

The evidence shows that the 16th Amendment was not ratified. It was, or fraudulently ratified.

So really, the income tax was a, was a bastard child from the moment of inception, uh, in 1913.

And then as you mentioned, the Federal Reserve Act was also passed in the exact same year,

not a coincidence. But by 1916, the Supreme Court actually ruled that the 16th Amendment,

the income tax amendment did not expand federal taxing power. So for all that effort of getting a,

an income tax amendment to the Constitution that was fraudulently ratified anyway. But even if it

was legitimately ratified, the Supreme Court said, there's no new power. Whatever power the

federal government had before the 16th Amendment is the same as after. And that's actually where the

beginnings of the, uh, obfuscation, shall we say, in 1916, where the paper trail that I've reviewed

starts. And, and what happens is the, the government, the treasury, with the Congress began to obscure

in the actual written laws, who was actually required to pay it. And then when World War II came along,

uh, you have all the propaganda relating to, uh, funding the war, but then after the war, all the debt.

And, you know, we need to pay off the war debts and everybody needs to get in and help roll the boat.

And that's when withholding became ubiquitous, withholding from people's paychecks.

So it's been a very slow process. Um, but then of course, you know, one generation to the next

is like, well, my parents filed a tax return. I've got to do that too, right? And so, yes.

And also this, you know, you can't do anything without it, right? You can't get a mortgage on a home

or, you know, many other things because people want to see your tax returns. So it's, uh, it's really

still quite a powerful weapon of control. Yes. And again, I just, I want people to just take a

look at the facts, you know, pray about it. You'll, you'll, you'll, you'll make the right decision

for yourself. Joe Bannister can't make it for you. And I don't want to. I just want to share

an American's guy's story trying to do the right thing. And this is what happened to me. So

do you want to just say, well, too bad for you guy? Do you want to join in a little bit? Maybe

learn a little bit, you know, and kind of get in there and help. And you don't have to do much,

even just learning about it. Yeah. Being an advocate for the truth, I think is, you know, fantastic.

So, do you, so you don't regret it, Joe, in spite of everything that's happened since?

No, no, not at all. I mean, I really, when I look at how people suffer in other countries,

or in the past, maybe in this country, you know, had to, hey, you're going to get your musket

and you're going to go fight the British and the Revolutionary War, or you're going to be drafted

and you're going to go over to Korea, you know, or my wife has relatives on the coast of Italy.

You're going to go to Anzio and we're going to take that beach and we're going to go fight the Germans.

You know, all I had to do was speak up, lose a job, you know, get prosecuted wrongfully,

but then get acquitted. You know, having a jury that actually listens, so I got to, my, my jury

rights were very important and very valuable. Wasn't just some judge sitting behind a day is saying

you're guilty. So, I basically just appreciative of the rights that we do have and I think we have

a lot more that we don't exercise. And so, no, I don't, I'm just, I'm grateful to God

for the blessings I have for the blessing He gives all of us and just, just try to be grateful

as I can. Now, Congress could change all of this in a heartbeat, right? They could, they could rewrite

the law and they could specify American citizens and Americans living and working at home

and they could specify the 50 states, right? They could do all of this.

They could, of course, the first question would be, well, if you're having to do it now in 2026,

does that mean it wasn't there from 1913 to 2026?

And why wasn't it there? So, I mean, the questions and that's why they don't want to grapple with it.

I don't think most congressmen even know. I'm hoping like a Thomas Massey.

Would, you know, watch your show. Maybe already does. Hopefully already does.

And see, like, well, let's dig into this. We actually tried to have

congressional hearing and it's kind of a long story, so I won't get into it. But we actually had

the commitment from the IRS and the Department of Justice to supply officials for a formal congressional

hearing on these matters relating to the income tax. And the commitments were arrived at,

I think it was like the summer or fall of 2001. And you know what happened on September 11th,

the 2001, the whole, the Twin Towers and the whole. Of course, not 11 happened, yeah.

And so they scuttled that hearing that was committed to in writing. And it's never been rescheduled.

Never, yeah, amazingly, never been rescheduled. Now, there was a report just recently that said,

you know, well over 100,000 federal workers have not paid their taxes, including some 5,000

inside the IRS. I think it was about 50 million dollars in unpaid taxes from IRS people working

at the IRS. Did that surprise you? No, no. I mean, when I worked for the IRS, I filed a tax return.

But yeah, there's a lot of people that even during my era. And then, of course, what you're describing,

I'll bet you any money came out of these picked these inspector general reports.

Because they will typically tell the truth. And then nothing gets done about it.

Right. Yeah, there's a lot of deadbeats that work in the IRS. If you think that's hypocrisy,

you're right. The 60 minute story that you were a part of, Joe, one of the things, well,

the main thing that it was really looking at was the withholding of taxes by employers.

And so, you've spoken about how when you file a tax return, you're creating an obligation,

right? You're creating a contract, a legal agreement with the IRS. But what about when you're

just working for somebody, if your employer is withholding taxes, is that the equivalent

of creating a contract. And what if you're like a 1099 employee where you're not,

there's no withholding of taxes, but you now have an obligation. Do you now have an obligation?

Then to file taxes, I mean, how do these things square up with what you know?

Well, the critical junctures right at the beginning for a W2 worker. And that is when they're asked

to fill out a W4 form. And the W4 form is what's called a voluntary withholding certificate.

And so, by the employer, the business owner giving you that form, they're basically saying,

okay, here, you know, fill out this form to tell us how much to withhold from your paycheck.

Once the withholding occurs, the business owners require to pay 15.3%

like self-security and Medicare to the government. But the business owner collects one half of that,

7.65% from your paycheck. Then the business owner takes another 7.65% out of their own profit,

puts it together to make 15.3% and sends that off to the government. And by the way,

when the employer withholds the money from your paycheck, he becomes liable to pay that money

over to the government. There's no question about that. Once it's withheld, the employer has a

requirement by law to forward it to the government. It's basically what they call a trust fund

situation. Sure, because you've now withheld that money on behalf of the IRS. Therefore,

it's not yours to keep you now owe it to the IRS. Right. But that original juncture,

the original Y in the road is when you're given the W4. Now, it's called a voluntary withholding

agreement for a reason, because it's supposed to be voluntary. But if you tell Google or Apple,

or wherever you're going to work, I don't want to fill that out. I don't want to volunteer.

They may decide they don't want to hire you, even though, and then you're left

while you'd have to sue them for discrimination. That's one of the reasons that I'm not really

pushing people, because there's an apparatus, Laura, as you recognized earlier in the show,

elsewhere in the show, that there's a big web that's grown up around this entire process.

But just to at least try to explain the way it works, it's that W4, where you are volunteering

to have money taken out of your paycheck, and then that's what authorizes the employer to do.

If you do not volunteer, if a business owner takes money out of your paycheck without your

permission, that's called theft. What about a W2? If you fill out a W2, are you now

making a contract with the IRS? Are you now obligated?

Well, the W4, for that initial that you fill out to get them to withhold, that is basically

an agreement between you and the employer. It's an IRS form, but it's not between you and the

IRS is between you and the place where you work. Then the place where you work, the business owner

has like a separate contract with the IRS, and that's where they fill out payroll tax returns

and pay over the money that they were held from your check, plus the money that they have to match.

The business owner has to match. Now a 1099 situation where somebody works as a contractor

is somewhat different. I should point out whether it's 1099 or W2, the IRS gets a copy.

They get a copy. You get a copy. Millions of Americans get a W2 in the mail like in January

after the year is over. Well, one copy goes to you, but another copy goes to the IRS.

So even if you don't tell them the IRS how much you made, they're going to know. 1099 is the same

kind of a situation. The copy goes to you that, hey, we paid you 30 grand during the year. We paid

you 46 grand during the year, but a copy of that 1099 also goes to the IRS. So if you don't tell

the IRS on a tax return that you earn that money from that payer, the IRS is going to know

anyway. The thing about the 1099 as just another example and adjunct to the belief for the truth,

the truth that the income tax is a scam is that 1099s are really limited to payments relating to

an international situation, non-resident aliens. Hundreds of millions of 1099s are filed every year

with the IRS. But in my view, based on the evidence, the vast majority of them are not required by law.

They're basically just sent because the business owner wants to just get the monkey off their back.

But when you actually look at the law, the regulations relating to 1099s, it has to do with more

international circumstances, not ABC company in Austin, Texas paying Joe Jones a contractor

in Austin. And again, those are just the facts. It's too detailed to go into in the show,

but there's always these junctures where they kind of invite you in or they make you come in to

the party, right? But in terms of 1099s, and at 1099, they seek your sole security number,

right? Yes. Once again, not required by law, but if you buck and say, well, here's the law,

I'm not actually required to give you that number, then they may say, let's shop for another

contractor. So I can't help that kind of a reaction from the business owner. And I can't really

even help that they are going to be able, what happens if I don't give a 1099 to the IRS that I

paid Joe Jones? So what happened to all those business owners that were not withholding payroll

taxes, because they deemed that that did not apply to the 50 states, because it wasn't included,

and there wasn't listed in the tax code. That was, you know, that was what was reflected in the

60 minutes piece. Do you have any idea whether they, they went down, you know, whether the IRS

held them accountable, whether any of those cases were adjudicated to the courts and whether

courts landed? Yeah, I think there were, there were like six or seven business owners who

appeared in USA today ads. Yeah. They sang, we're not withholding from our employees paychecks

anymore. And so Al Thompson, my co-defendant, who was there in the 60 minutes piece, was one of those

six or seven. And as far as I know, the IRS and the DOJ picked off all of them or all but one.

But of course, there, as far as my opinion is, as far as the planning or the way that it could have

been handled in a, in a more studied, you know, way, I think could have been a lot different, but it

was more like they go public in USA today. Yeah. They don't, they don't really do a lot of homework

or think about, you know, the blowback. And so, I mean, I'm not really criticizing them because

they were all very honorable men trying to do the right thing. But they underestimated the machine.

Yes, exactly. So, would you be the first? The mechanics of it are pretty clear when you look

at the facts that these are ways that the IRS can suck you in. And if you had business owners

and workers who were both aware of the circumstances and began to question, well, do I really have to do

this? Or what law requires it? The system would begin to unfold because it's people not asking the

question because they think it's required. Yes. When they look at the law, look at the regulations,

and you see, well, these are only supposed to be an international circumstances. Why are you

telling me to do this? I live and work in Austin. The business I contract with is in Austin.

It's one of those everybody else is doing it, right? Yes. So, I guess this is the way it must be.

Exactly. So, why does the IRS have all this ammunition and weapons that they have stockpiled?

That was another report that came out recently that showed all the millions of dollars that the

IRS had spent on ammunition and weapons. Some of that I'm not sure who's responsible for the fish

story, where the fish grows and grows because quite a long time ago, I remember there was about

the weapons that the IRS agents are going to carry. Actually, those weapons were for the TIGTA

agents because the Treasury Inspector General agents worked directly for the Treasury Department.

So, their weaponry and their arsenal is a lot more wide than what an IRS special agent could carry.

Also, the 80,000 agents, the media makes it sound like next month, there's going to be 80,000 more

agents. They're going to be everywhere. You're going to wake up in the morning. He's going to be an

IRS agent on your doorstep. Right. Yet the actual legislation. Brandishing a weapon in a badge.

Yes. Come with me. In actuality, it was, I believe it was like 8,000 agents per year for 10 years.

And then I'm pretty sure that even that legislation. Yeah, that got stopped. Stop. So,

only because Trump was elected in fairness. So, it would have gone ahead. Yeah.

Or it'd not for that. Yeah. So, I'm pretty sure the media and the government, they work together.

So, if they want to scare the public, they're there in the public. Well, Joe, it's been so nice to

talk to you. I really appreciate the sacrifice and your commitment to telling the truth. It's

quite something that everything that you said has stood the test of time. Of course, there's still

going to be people who say it's crazy and it's hogwash. And we're not trying to tell anybody,

you're not trying to make up people's minds for them. This is a show where you can hear, hear from

people with credibility, hear from people who've dealt with it firsthand. And then, of course,

make up your own mind. It's up to you. You know, I'm just a journalist. I'm not here to tell people

what to think. I know it's a novel concept, but that kind of used to be how I thought, I thought

all of us in the media thought that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. Hopefully, it goes back

to that. It would be fascinating to see what happens with the external revenue service.

And if we do reach a point where the internal revenue service is going way, of course, Florida,

one of the, I think, one of the lead states on abolishing property taxes, right? Unfortunately,

taxes where I am hasn't gotten there yet, although there's no income tax here.

So there is, there seems to be a groundswell of people who are waking up to this reality who are

beginning to be bold enough to question these things. The IRS doesn't want that no doubt, right?

They've been, they've gone on the record in the past to say that these things are not helpful,

and they certainly take a close look. So do you, I mean, do you think this fear that people have

of the IRS is justified? Yes and no. I think that a lot of the fear could be

relieved or reduced if they learn more about it. So I think there's a lot of fear. I don't think,

and I think, you know, it's certainly fear is an emotion that's valuable, but I don't like the people,

I wish people wouldn't be as fearful. And I think the, you know, the remedy, the antidote is learning

more about it. And then you find that, well, I don't need to be, at least I can diminish my fear by

25% or 50%. It's still an improvement because, you know, when fear leaves trust and gratitude can come

in more easily. So I just think that learning more, you'll find that you don't need to be as fearful,

and I think that's a good thing for everyone. Well, I think there's someone much more famous

than me that said something about we shall all stand together or surely we shall all hang

separately, right? I'm modifying that a little bit, but the point is, the point is that individually,

it's easy to pick us off one by one, but if, if people educate themselves and stand together,

then, then at least you can get the attention of those in power and maybe get these issues addressed

and get some of your questions answered. I hope that you get to see some kind of resolution,

some kind of action, some kind of admission in your lifetime. I know that your family, you know,

I know it's hard always on the families. When people take a stand, it's hard on you, but it's hard

on your families too. And hopefully with people waking up to the fact that our government doesn't always

have our best interest at heart and things like finding out that the Federal Reserve isn't Federal

and it doesn't have any reserves, you know, it's kind of like that with the IRS. So thank you for

making the time to talk to us. Today, Joe, we'll be keeping an eye on this for sure. I'm sure there are

lots of people that interested. Where can people who have questions, where can they find you?

Oh, thank you. My website is agent4truth.com and lots of free information there. There's also a book

that I wrote in 2019 to kind of summarize all the fun and games and escapades that the IRS has

put me through and the impact that that might have on others. So I'm really grateful for, you know,

to spend time with you and your audience. What's your book called? It's called Investigating the

Federal Income Tax report to the American people. Investigating the Federal Income Tax report to

the American people. A book that has stood the test of time as have you. Thank you so much, Joe,

and take care of yourself. Thanks, Laura. Take care. Okay, you know what to do. Like, share,

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Thank you for joining us. And as always, thank you for being bold enough to go rogue with Laura.