Have the GAA abandoned integration? | ‘I’m just baffled and frustrated!' | TOM PARSONS & MARIA KINSELLA

0:00This is a free off the ball podcast. For access to the best in sporting analysis from the lakes of Brain O Driscoll, Andy Don, Kevin Kilban, Deon Fanning, Tommy Waj, Darren O'Sullivan and last more, becoming off the ball in number today. Join in the obsession. Subscribe now at offtheball.com for a flat join. The off the ball rugby roachow is coming to your province. Join some of the biggest stars from Lenscher, Monster, Ulster and Connucked as we travel around the country to preview the 2026-27 rugby season. Don't miss your chance to be there. Get your tickets now at offtheball.com for slash events. Off the ball, GAA. Welcome back to Choose Inites, Off the Ball. Now we're coming back to the story that Dr. Mary MacCaly has stepped down as a chairperson of the Integration Committee over a senior malgommation of the GAA, LGFA and Komogi Association.

1:00This comes back to a development this week where the GAA told a steering group that it couldn't commit to the timeline of integration which was set roughly for next year. She'd been working in the role since 2022 and there were due to be special congresses next month across the three organizations and then you'd have one association created at the end of that. The GAA have requested more time to reflect on the process, a time that might have led to up to five years of waiting. And the GAA also told a steering group that it wished to reconsider the approach with greater focus on equity rather than equality. Then Dr. Mary MacCaly gave a blistering interview on Inside Sport on Radio 1. She said that the Charlotte Burns, the organization, the leadership was in favor of federation, not in favor of integration. She referred to the leadership in the GAA not being evident. She referred to this being a betrayal of the women in our sporting cultures. She referred to the GAA Management Committee as less than impressive. A body so lacking in vision for the future of the GAA. She said that integration won't happen under the management of the GAA.

2:03To talk about this, we have Tom Parsons, former mayor of footballer and chief executive officer of the GAA Players Association on the line, evening Tom. Hi, everyone, how are you? I'm good and Maria Kinsler, former Carlo footballer and former chair of the WGPA and co-chair of the GPA's National Executive Committee on the line as well. She was in that role of the National Executive Committee of the GPA between 2021 and 2024. Maria, how are you doing? Yeah, I'm just devastated at the news to see them. I can't really believe it or get my head around us, we're supposed to be. I'm wound out from three associations holding special congress in October to get the go ahead, to disband and form one association. It's come out with a blue for, I've stepped away from the closeness of this process since my term is ended with the GPA two years ago. But as someone who was involved in that process and as a female player and a person heavily involved in GAA,

3:04I'm really disappointed to hear this news. I'm particularly the comments from Mary McElise around why the process has stopped. Were there red flags for you, Maria, during this process? I attended the workshop by the Rocho in February in Cropark around the timeline of what the next few months and steps would be. And for me, that was really eye-opening to hear the feedback, the concerns of the members of the GAA. It was the first time I probably heard different language from Jared Abrams in that room about, I think he even said that those who contribute the most should get the most. And he was very much on around the principle of equity then and perhaps not equality initially. And that was the first time I had heard the change of language from the GAA president. I suppose the communications from the group has been irregular to know that this was something that was bubbling underneath the surface.

4:11But some of the concerns raised by the GAA members that night leads me to not be overly surprised that we've ended up in this situation. I'll be the timeiness of it. Was there a unified front that night? Or was this very much Charlotte speaking on behalf of the organization? Everyone is at the top table, those are around the steering group. It was in relation to a question around from the floor, I believe. It did meet with a few eyes from female members of the crowd that night and myself as well. It was just a change in language and perhaps looking back now, yeah, that was a red flag. Tom Parsons, did you also have those sort of concerns around September or perhaps even earlier when it came to the cold feet that the GAA started to develop on this whole process? To be honest, I didn't see this coming on and this is a big shock. And that's very surprising because I'm meeting the GAA leadership on a weekly basis and this has surprised me.

5:16To be honest, when you look at the timelines June of this year, the steering committee met very publicly in a Niroctus Committee meeting and committed to integration. I'm also a member of GAA Central Council and in August, this wasn't challenged. This is a real governance issue for me because we're meant to be very proud of our democratic organization and GAA Congress is meant to be the supreme governing body. And in between Congress, it's meant to be the GAA Central Council who decide and govern the association. So I can't get my head around how the Congress, which is democratically elected from our clubs and our counties overwhelmingly vote to integrate. And that the GAA management has stated yesterday in an email that a cannot commit to definitive timeline and a most positive and reflect, which goes against the motion to prioritize integration.

6:26It goes against the very public statement to integrate by 2027. It goes against a very public statement in an Niroctus Committee meeting in June of this year. And it goes against any formal position that has been presented to their rule governance structures. So, you know, I'm very proud of our democratic structures, but I just can't get my head over how or who can decide this. And the GPA, like we have democratically been elected to be the representative voice of players, we democratically can bring a motion to the GAA structures. They passed this motion and it's been pulled by, as Mary MacLease has said, Iran GAA management. So I don't know who has the authority to overwrite a motion. And I think it's, you know, it's a very dangerous precedent to set that if we do talk about our democratic process and we pass motions at our supreme governing bodies,

7:37that in a whim, these can be apparently pulled. Like, it also, it's worth examining what comes next here. And we know that there is a presidential change over happening. And I know this is referred to by Mary MacLease in the interview earlier, but Derek Kent, who's the incoming GAA president said in an interview earlier this year that integration will happen all in good time. And that vagueness maybe is something that we should have listened more closely to at the time, that there is this pervasive sense of actually 2027 isn't really a hard deadline on this. But I guess the question Tom is, how has that attitude managed to prevail all across the decision makers at the top of the GAA? Because we know it's not run by one person, but it seems that it's a bull from the blue for a lot of people today, but it seems to have been a consensus amongst the top table of those running the GAA. Well, I know this hasn't came from the democratically elected central council or it would have been brought up at the August meeting.

8:39So it's a it's a number of people in the GAA who's made this decision to pull out of the ISG and pause and reflect and not commit to definitive timeline. But I want to just think about this. I mean, you know, at the weekend, I just witnessed 82,000 people fill out four power consolidate for one female athlete. And in the same week, the message that has went out, the message that we've heard from Mary Maca-Lease about that she believes women in in our sport aren't wanted. Like some of the language that Mary said is just frightening. This sends out a terrible, terrible message. And, you know, I served the players and I have never said to our National Executive Committee or at our Reps Day that I do not believe in 2027 will not happen. I always believed it would happen because they have committed to it in the public forum room. They've committed to it in an arctic committee. They committed to it in a statement by the GAA president in in 2024.

9:47You know, like in February of 2024, the statement is we know a roadmap and the GAA would be committed to its development and its success. And a commitment is a commitment and just this week, given the significant of Irish sport, given that, you know, we heard Katie Taylor say that in the north of the country, does she feel that 82,000 people would show such solidarity for one female athlete. It's such a terrible week for this to happen. And to be honest, I'm just got utterly disappointed. I do trust in the democratic process of the GAA and part of that process, the GPA, our part of that process. The players have an elected body that has a voice. They played a part and bring an emotion to that Congress. Maria stood up in GAA Congress and called out that motion. You know, and this is like when you read out the motion, the GAA shall prioritize integration with the LGBTQ association in order to jointly ensure equal investment recognition and opportunity for all genders to player sports. That was passed by 90%.

10:53Tom, that now feels that that's out the window, even if they drag their feasts, the idea that they're looking for equity rather than equality flies in the face of that. Right. So even if they were to turn around and say we push it back by a year, but they are prioritizing equity over equality, that changes the definition of what you've just read out there, right? And the GAA have essentially morphed what this integration conversation looks like. But the GAA are a national governing body that are democratically elected and the own constitution says that Congress sets the rules. And in between Congress, if there's a decision to be made, their central council must almost set the rules. So who is they? Well, I think 100% Maria, I think the picture that you paint as of that day in September, I think that is like a day worth investigating a little bit more and like asking a little bit more about because who were having the conversations in the build up to that. What is the genesis of the morphing of the definition of integration? Like as you've already outlined, like alarm bells are going off when you see that happen when equity becomes the word, rather than equality because Tom's definition there is equality.

12:05So somebody somewhere has decided that the definition of integration has changed Maria. Yeah, just before coming on, I actually went to the GAA Twitter to just see how they issued a statement since Mary Macleys's interview and they hadn't. But what was the top post and interview celebrating Nicola Brennan's appointment as a female manager of a lead from Mayens team? I just thought what is the irony in celebrating that if this is what you actually feel about integration? I just thought it was so much tokenism looking at that article now. And that's what we should be celebrating this week. That should be the GAA story. And Bush, the definition of equality was very clear in the motion and it was passed by all three associations. What are you really feared for now is the future of how this process can be recovered. How is the goodwill with the Komokia Association and the LGFA going to be repaired if this is ever going to get back on track?

13:10Like, would female players even want to be part of GAA after this sentiment? Because it's like, we support integration, Bush, Bush. There's a full stuff there at the end of that sentence. There shouldn't be a Bush. We have contributed so significantly towards that organization for so many years, but yet they're not willing to fully recognize us. And for me, I think a large part of this comes back to finances. And I think Mary Macleise alluded to that as well. And it was definitely some of the concerns that were expressed by GAA members in that room and call part back in February at the integration workshop as well. The fear of perhaps intercounty teams doubling in costs for what's already been out there for the men's teams. A lot of it is definitely around finances. And I come back to our own time about how we approach this with the GPA and the WGPA integration. We are now, are the associations, GPAs now 50-50 and finances between men and female players.

14:16And I just don't understand the mindset, are the ability of GAA management community to now pull up a lot of this? We're four years down the path. What did that conversation go like at the integration workshop in February? When the finances come up, was that almost a matter of fact? That's, I don't know, if we can afford this or was it something a little less blunt than that? No, it was more so just the recognition of the pressure that volunteers are wondering county boards to fund intercounty teams. And that's totally recognized on the men's side. But I definitely think there's economies of scale to be achieved. Like if you look at the top female intercounty teams, the upper and at a fraction of the cost, the top men's intercounty teams. I think there's a bit of learning to be got from both sides. But I think throughout the process, very little has been done publicly to alleviate those public fears in the GAA side. You know, you talk about finances, you talk about fixtures.

15:16Like they have all been rumblings at various stages during the last four years of this process. But no member of leadership on the GAA side have actually come out to quell those concerns. And oh, and I might come in and finances because that might come out from some GAA representative that they can't afford the 40 million to go to 80 million. I worked on the subcommittee of the steering group and we developed a minimum standards charter for intercounty players. And the cost was an additional 5 million per year over two years. So already with the work of equal equal equal equalizing the funding from government when minister Jack Chambers equalized the funding. We've gone a long way in funding the female charter. And so it's, you know, there's like that is that's smoke and mirrors to say that this is a cost issue. You know, the GAA released their own report from Sheffield University to say that when he consolidated the revenue, not that the clubs make, but the counties, provincials and centrally when you consolidate that revenue, it's 250 million.

16:29And we had solutions developed to make this totally sustainable. And I'd like to just pick up the comment about equality. When we talk about equality, we mean of course there's inequality in terms of the performance tiers. Like of course there's going to be a difference to how the limmer carlers are going to be treated compared to the the donigall herders, you know. But that equality should be based on performance tier, not not on gender. So when you look at the cork and go away, Kamugi final like those players competing in front of 30,000 people at that performance level is higher than a lot of the lower tier men. So equity does come into it. Of course, equity comes into it. But it comes into it on performance tiers, not on gender tiers. So, you know, like if that comes out in the woodwork as a reason why or, you know, fingers appointed to the GPA and the intercounty game, like that's all, you know, BS to be honest, because the work was done.

17:35It's totally sustainable. Of course, the GPA employers would agree to a pathway to equalize minimum standards. And of course the top teams who are playing in all our infimals in front of 82,000 people will be staying in a different class of hotel or will have access to an additional physio or will need more training or nutrition nutrition support. So like equity is totally achievable. And and that has been explained over and over again. And I'm just I just cannot believe as CEO of the Gated Affairs Association. And messages I've received from countless players today to be blindsided and it sounds like Mary was blindsided. I think the whole association was blindsided because in no governance structure has this been highlighted that they're going to pause and reflect cannot commit to a definitive time. And this is what we said and could the extension could be up to five years. I'm totally thrown by this.

18:40What was there ever any red flag early in the year, Tom, when like reference those there are kind of comments, you know, they're in a correct time space. But you look back on those comments and think to yourself, geez, I should have potentially inquired about this that there were some hesitations. Yeah, there was I've had conversations with the powers that be and direct before his election that of course the GPA will play ball. Of course we will look at a phase plan, but the intention was always there to vote on one membership. First of all, so that's just one membership. So there's there's tears to this. So, you know, of course there's doubts on. But to be honest, I'll be honest, you know, we brought the motion forward. Myself Maria was in the Maria and myself were very focused on this early doors. We weren't invited on to the integration steering committee. We gave the GA management and the governing bodies respect to do it. We've taken the players have taken them at face value. That is 2027.

19:44And now players will feel so addition disenfranchised. And we're going to have a group call with captains, you know, this week. And I fear for what female players will respond to this. I mean, it's only, you know, 12 months ago since female players took collective action on the Scorts issue. And we've seen that that was televised all around the world, you know, include New York. And for in good governance known sport on players have a say. Players are volunteers, but they're the one volunteer that's actually putting their body on the line. And you watch that carcane and golly, Kamogi final again. And you'll see blood sweat and tears. Like what players gave to the game is so important. And the players really just feel totally excluded, un-listened to and disappointed by the leadership of our gala game. Just a couple of other things. I'm just one last one for you for now anyway, just to make the point there about finances potentially being a smoke and mirrors answer by the G.A.

20:49What's the real answer here? What's the real reason as to why this thing is being kicked down the track by the G.A.? There's loads of reasons not to have doubts about this. There's loads of reasons. But like I think the real reason here on is obviously a leadership gap. I mean, we like where has who has been champion this for the last number of years from the G.A. Is a turnover of leadership at a president level? Is it the director general? But like is there a communication gap? This doesn't come down to finances or pitches. That will be there. And the government have came out with all their policy to say that they will support integration. So it has nothing to do with the house and the Watts. This is totally behaviors, leadership attitudes that has allowed it to get to this stage. So just you think that the attitude prevailing within the G.A. is one of anti-integration?

21:52Well, it must be listening to Mary McElise's interview today. And we have to take Mary McElise Huberg and the Good Friday agreement, who is president of this country, who has very good standings. And if you listen to her words about the attitudes. It's unbelievably strong language. And that's your opinion. Like if the G.A. were here, I'm sure they would completely reject that we have reached out for a comment from the G.A. And look, you're on the, you're pretty much echoing what Maccally said earlier on. Maria just on the point that Mary Maccally said earlier on Radio One that she believes that people are not happy with women being involved in decision making at the top of the G.A. They just find that an extraordinary line, but I haven't been in these rooms. I don't know how it operates. Would you echo that? Would you echo the idea that people at the top of the G.A. are not happy with women being involved in decision making? I think it would be unusual for them to take them away to adjust to having women there.

22:55Like management committee definitely seem to be uncomfortable with that idea if they're the ones that hit pause on this. I actually really want to hear the G.A. and leadership comment and explain this tomorrow. I think they owe that to the whole association, the association that can be completely disurveyed, that responded with 98% in favor of integration, the largest sporting survey in Ireland, the people and the members who have been involved in decision making. I think that the people who have stood with this process for the last four years, patiently waiting for updates and the timeline. I think the top leadership of the G.A. or that to all members of the association tomorrow, because I just can't understand this at all. I don't think anyone will. I think when you see someone as credible, as talented, and as formidable as President Mary MacClaise deciding that she can no longer help this process or work with these people.

23:58I'm just baffled, I'm completely baffled and just frustrated that, again, I'm not a attempt to get integration and to get equal investment and recognition and opportunities for female players have stalled. Can I put this to you as well? Because you might be able to help me out in this one. When we look at that comment from Mary MacClaise that people aren't happy with women being involved in decision making. I think that if you're going to be able to help the G.A. you go to the literal management committee of the G.A. and I really add every single name to the listener at home that's involved in this management committee. So goes from the top down, Charlotte Burns, Tom Ryan, Vincent Neary, Michael Gagan, Martin Burn, Tim Murphy, Sean Hopkins, Tracy Kennedy, John Murphy, Joan Keele, Keelan Cassan, Mary Judge, Moya Murdock, Fiona Joyce, Claire Aiken, Derek Kent, Helen Orruk, Hilda Brezlin, Jermal Ryan. The most powerful committee in Gaelic Games has nine women on a 19 person committee. How do you square that circle, Maria?

25:04Yeah, and a few of those members have only actually, so the LGF and Kamolgy CEOs have only recently acquired voting rights on that committee. And the other female members have been co-opted on to as a result of pressure from the government's 30% of women on representation in recent years. I know a few of the women on that management committee and I'd love to hear from them tomorrow also. There are incredibly strong females who would advocate for equality in business, in sport and in order areas of their lives. I just, yeah, I just heard to wrap your head around how we've gotten here. Like I come back to the fact we're supposed to get lunch away from special Congress. And we're four or five years down the road. Like if there was concerns, why would they not raise and Congress in 2021?

26:06That to me suggests it's a change in people at the table, perhaps, that is now forcing this to come. Yeah, can I come in there as well on like the committee is 2027. So, you know, I think the association would have accepted that. Okay, there's no special Congress this year in 2026, but that these motions will be delivered in Congress and in February's Congress of 2027. So it seems like such a bloomed instrument that somebody has been chairing this committee for four years has stepped down. And basically from what has, it's like our hands has been tied to step down. And with no solution to deliver on their commitment in 2027, like the possible extension of up to five years, I just how that message is out there publicly is really disappointing. And, you know, to come back to your view about women, like I've never met anybody individually in the GAA that is anti this.

27:12Yeah, you know, there's a lot of good people in the GAA and I'm not going to say otherwise. But what it needs is real reflective leadership about the messages that goes out there and communication and leadership about how the opportunity outweighs the challenges. Like any integration of any organization, of course, there's going to be challenges, but there's huge opportunities here and the opportunities would be very soon on and we look at the weekend. Our top sponsors will not sponsor male only competitions. They want to see diversity of male and females in terms of sponsorship. That's across counties, provinces and said that's a huge opportunity for the GAA. Also, government, if you look at the national sports policy, all the policy is about any facility, any grants, any funding needs to be equally shared from male and female for boys and girls. So the opportunities far outweigh the challenges and obstacles.

28:13And I just think this isn't anyone individual, but there really is a gap here on leadership and minutes. We have gone way over time, both that was really great stuff. You've been listening to Tom Paris's former male footballer and CEO of the GAA, the Players Association and Maria Kinstler, former Cardinal footballer and former chair of the WGPA and co-chair of the GPA's National Executive Committee between 2021 and 2024. Folks, thanks a million for your time this evening. Off the ball, GAA. This is a free off the ball podcast for access to the best in sporting analysis from the Lakes of Brain, OJ and D'Don, Kevin Kilban, Deanne Fanning, Tommy Walsh, Darren O'Sullivan and last more, becoming off the ball a member today. Join in the obsession, subscribe now at offtheball.com for a flash join. This is a free off the ball podcast for access to the best in sporting analysis from the Lakes of Brain, OJ and D'Don, Kevin Kilban, Deanne Fanning, Tommy Walsh, Darren O'Sullivan and last more, becoming off the ball a member today.