Have Yourself a Very 'Chaordic' Christmas: When Chaos Meets Order with Terry Hoggard (EP 359)

We're coining a new Christmas greeting: "Have yourself a very 'chaordic' Christmas!" Chaordic—where chaos meets order. With decades planting churches in Rome and Brussels and serving with Convoy of Hope, Terry Hoggard helps us see Christmas as the ultimate disruptive innovation—an ongoing dance between heaven and earth. Discover why crisis is often the catalyst for much-desired transformation. This isn't your typical feel-good Christmas message. It's a call to intentional disruption and wholehearted seeking. Because when you're all in, God rolls out a pathway you never imagined possible.

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See the full episode transcript below.

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Have Yourself a Very Chaordic Christmas: When Chaos Meets Order with Terry Hoggard

Brian: Hey there, friend. Merry Christmas. I'm glad you're with us. Thanks for connecting today. I'm Brian Del Turco, and you are connected with Jesus Smart, the podcast. Jesus knows how this life works best.

This is such an inspiring conversation, number 211—now being recast as episode 359. Here's the title—I'm confident you have not heard a Christmas greeting like this before: "Have Yourself a Very Chaordic Christmas" with Terry Hoggard. This, my friend, is a new wrinkle on keeping Christmas well.

Meet Terry Hoggard

Terry Hoggard is our special guest. He's a veteran missionary who has led international churches in Rome and Brussels. He's a leader of international leaders, a life coach, and he's an executive leader in Convoy of Hope, an international relief organization.

Here's an idea: why not gift this episode with a friend or two, and then they can gift it to others? I think you'll see that this is a gift worth re-gifting. But you get to keep the value when you gift a podcast episode.

Terry really encourages us that it is going to take a wholehearted mindset and heart set—the strength of our desire, the fortitude of our will. We have to have an all-in approach to engage this Christmas dance between heaven and earth.

The True Joy of Christmas

Here's the true joy of Christmas: when we understand that heaven and earth merge in us through the indwelling Christ, all bets are off. Unlimited potential can be released. You see, it's more than remembering Jesus as a baby in a manger. Christmas is a breakthrough merging of heaven and earth, and this changes everything.

The incarnation means that heaven and earth are reconnected again in a new way. A seamlessness between heaven and earth has been re-established. Think of it—it is the grounds on which we can now pray, "Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

What can this mean for you? What can it mean for me? God wants to be reconnected with us. Reconciliation is a huge meta theme in the kingdom of God—putting things back together again. And a huge part of what Jesus is after is the reunification of heaven and earth.

From Barely Enough to Abundantly More

Brian: Welcome, friend, to the podcast today. I'm really excited to bring to you Terry Hoggard. Terry, welcome to the podcast today. I appreciate you carving out some time.

Terry: My joy to be with you, Brian. Thanks for the invite.

Brian: Give us maybe just a sentence about a springboard theme for today's episode.

Terry: A sentence of theme would be this: it's Advent, and I always have some sort of Advent Christmas theme. This year I'm thinking in this way—celebrating the Christ who changes our "barely enough" into "abundantly more."

Brian: I personally need this. Tell us about your work over the years. You started out as a missionary with the Assemblies of God in Rome. Why don't you just bring us briefly up through the present?

Terry: Well, you're completely correct. 1984, Ruthanne and I, my wife, we answered the call to be missionaries, specifically felt called to Rome at that time. So we planted an international church in Rome, which was for our organization the second international church to be established in Europe. I stayed there 10 years. I then went to Brussels to pastor what was the first international church established for the Assemblies of God globally.

I spent 25 years living in Brussels—10 pastoring that church. Then I spent another 10 working in Sweden and Copenhagen, working with churches who wanted to reach their communities by encouraging diversity and inclusion with immigrants. After that, I stayed based in Europe for five years working with Convoy of Hope, overseeing the international program and the teams who drive the global work of Convoy of Hope.

→ Read Terry's complete missionary journey and life coaching story at jesussmart.com/359-chaordic-christmas

Christmas as Divine Disruption

Brian: This theme of abundance and getting past this scarcity mindset and scarcity experience that you're sensing this year in the Christmas theme—tell us about that.

Terry: Yeah. I think without a lot of heavy thought, all of us have stories of moments in our lives when things were just very hard and times were tough. And very likely we know someone right now by first name who's in the same kind of state. I have family members who are literally living on "barely enough."

And it's to them that I give my thoughts, knowing that Christ invaded—I like your word about interruption. He interrupted the world and all the life patterns that were normalized. People who were labeled were labeled, and people who were poor were poor, and that was just not going to change. But Christ came to turn all of that upside down.

Brian: I'm really enjoying the notion of Christmas as an invasion. The King is back. What are the implications for life, for work, for ministry? Do you see Christmas as an invasion of sorts—the Christ child coming into this earth, the incarnation?

Terry: My desire always is that these days—and I actually dial into the Advent as well because I want to redeem all of these days—our fervent resolve should be to make the most of every opportunity. A great Christmas is a wonderful gift to give to someone who's in a very difficult situation. But a great Christmas doesn't compare to the abundantly more that Christ could provide.

If we, in the act of kindness or in wanting to make someone's Christmas better, don't forget to give highlight to the most important thing—which is Christ coming not just to your home or your heart at Christmas, but becoming a part of your everyday—that's going to change everything.

Brian: I love working through the Christmas narratives in the Gospels and trying to tease out kingdom dynamics. This Advent dynamic—you know who Leonard Sweet is, right? I don't know if he invented this word, but "chaordic." It's a word that blends chaos and order. When something is chaordic, it's an opportunity wrapped in chaos. It seems like the birth of Christ was quite chaordic, doesn't it?

Terry: Oh, absolutely. Everything about Him was to disrupt normal so thoroughly that people could embrace change. People don't break change, they don't go to change until they're thoroughly done with the circumstances they're in. That's the tragedy. So you need someone to disrupt that.

Brian: Disruptive innovation is a business term. I'm just seeing the Christ child as sort of like the ultimate disruptive innovation.

Terry: Yeah, that's so true. There's nothing about Christ in reality that cuddles the best world image that can be presented. The nativity sets—Christ is this baby wrapped in these beautiful cloths and He's surrounded by hay. The most we can give is not even a glimmer of who the Christ of Christmas really is.

The Power of Crisis and Necessity

Brian: So practically speaking, in terms of everyday life, what suggestions do you have about pursuing an abundant life in Christ?

Terry: I'm thinking about what Philippians says to us. It's very clear that we've been promised that God will supply all of our needs according to the riches of His glory in Christ Jesus. That's why I want to promote this Christ who can change "barely enough" into "abundantly more."

Here's the thing. The reality of His capacity is only fully revealed to us in times of great necessity, necessity and scarcity. That's the only time we get it.

Brian: Someone has said that adult learning readiness equals pain. When we feel the need, when we're tired of it, we're better positioned for transformation.

Terry: And it's so true. I remember when this hit my life strong and hard. I was told I had thyroid cancer, and it had been in my neck for a long time. Up until that time, I was a pastor, raised in a Pentecostal family, believing in healing. I believed He was a healer, preached He was a healer, prayed for people to be healed. But in my life, I had never been in a spot where I needed a healer.

Never in my...