He Was Sentenced To 213 Years In Prison | Better Bad Ideas w/Sean O'Brien | Ep. 59

Thanks to labor first for sponsoring today's episode of Better Bad Ideas.

Now let's get into it.

I'm Sean O'Brien, General President of the International Brotherhood of Teemsters.

Put your helmets on, buckly a chin straps.

It's a full contact sport.

We're going to find out who has a better bad idea.

I got a better bad idea.

Let's talk about two guys that actually got sentenced to lengthy prison sentences.

Did their time, sought redemption, rehabilitated themselves,

and now I've dedicated their lives to helping incarcerate inmates,

but also helping people to maintain sobriety and embrace other programs.

Today we're joined by Adam Clausen, who was sentenced to, I'll make it sound short.

2,556 months in prison,

which equated to 213 years.

You went on a run, a nine day run,

20 smashing grabs, robberies, whatever you call them.

And you were sentenced over sentenced, right?

A little bit extreme.

A little bit extreme, right?

And then you have Johnny Bart, who was sentenced to 35 years.

Prison got out after doing 27 years.

What is your focus right now?

I mean, you got clemency.

Tell us about your story.

Not clemency.

No, you got a compassionate release.

Compassionate release for extraordinary and compelling reasons,

which just means I had to do a lot of things that had never been done in prison before.

And I kind of knew that going in 213 years.

I thought the number would be enough to stand out,

but I actually had to,

you know, it got to the point where I realized like nobody was coming to save me.

So I had to figure out how to earn that second chance.

So you're 25 years old.

You go on a run, right?

Yep.

And you got convicted,

and they tried to hand you up and wanted you to testify against someone

who you really didn't even know, right?

And you refuse to do it.

And you get hit with a 213-year sentence, 25 years old.

What is your mental capacity at this point in time?

I'm literally thinking like day to day,

just, you know, how am I going to get to the next day.

And to be honest, like where I ended up

was a long way from where I started,

because I continued doing the same things in prison that I was doing outside.

And so when you first get in there,

it was rocking a roll and running hard.

Right.

Yeah, wide open.

You know, there's plenty of drugs, alcohol, whatever you want in prison, it's there.

And, you know, I came in with a bit of a chip on my shoulder

and felt like I needed to establish and prove myself as well.

Funny thing is, funny story.

So I'm not there 24 hours.

And the guys are like, hey, we're playing hockey down the gym.

I think get out of here.

And you're from South Philly.

Yeah.

So you know what street hockey is?

I know what street hockey is,

but I didn't grow up playing hockey, right?

And it's all the guys from Boston.

Right.

And they're like, yeah, we're playing hockey.

I'm like, come on.

I'm not falling for that.

They're like, no, seriously.

We play floor hockey.

I'm like, okay, I'll come up there.

I go up there and I'm just a maniac with a stick, right?

Like, that's a good, that's a better, bad idea.

Give a guy, give a guy that's just got sentenced to 213 years in prison.

Give me a hockey stick.

Hyper, hyper aggressive.

Like, I'm a kid.

I'm, you know, I'm sure a good athlete, though, too, right?

Good athlete.

But I also like, I want to establish myself.

Great way to do that is sports.

You know, just get out there and, you know, you get to bump people around a little bit.

But I'm going hard.

And ball goes in behind the net.

I'm sliding along.

And on the back of the gym, there are these two eye beams that come down.

And there's, there's padding on the wall this way.

But the eye beams go this way.

And I'm sliding along the wall to pull the ball out.

Get checked from behind.

I hear ding, like literally, I hear the ding in my head.

And I'm like, what?

I back up.

I'm like, okay, get it and go.

And they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold up.

Everybody is like, dead silent in the gym.

They're like, stop.

I'm like, man, keep going.

I'm good.

They're like, you're not good.

They're like, you're split, man.

And I'm like, no.

And I go like this.

And I go, oh, shit.

Yeah.

I'm from here to here.

My head's, whoop.

I hit that eye beam, split wide open.

And it was ready to just keep going.

And they're like, no, you got to take a walk.

I go like, I'm bleeding pretty bad.

And I don't even know where medical is at this point.

Because they'll, like, show them all the time.

Yeah, like 24 hours.

So they, they're like, yeah, go down that way.

I mean, you're already in the penalty box.

So the kid that hit from behind didn't go in the penalty box.

No, man.

There's no penalty box.

Attempted murder.

It's all fair game.

So I head down the compound.

And I remember the guy up in the tower opens it up.

And he's, you know, he's up there.

And he looks down.

He's like, man, that looks bad even from up here.

I'm like, yeah, thanks.

And I get down there.

And there's the doctor.

And this woman's talking to me.

And she's like, you're going to let me stitch you up.

Do I need stitches?

And she says, it looks like it.

She goes, you know, this would be my first time.

I'm like, your first time.

She's like, yeah, I'm the psych.

But I'd really like to stitch you up.

I'm like, no, it's like that's the only class.

So in class.

I was like, I would really like someone who's done this before.

I was like, you can watch if you want.

Yeah.

They stitched me up.

And I'm like, so now what?

Can I go back up there?

And they're like, yeah.

So I went back up and finished playing hockey.

That's great.

And that's how I got started.

That's how you met some friends up there and everything else.

It was.

That was, uh, that was the first couple of days and then a few days later.

Honestly, one of those, you know, pivotal moments.

Yeah.

I end up in the hole on 9-11.

No kidding.

So we were there less than a year.

You're there a year.

Yeah.

I'm not there very long.

But I wake up, uh, basically naked alone in this cell hung over, uh, drank a little too much.

And before I got a little too rowdy, find myself over there, you know, in prison, in prison.

Like, there's no, there's nowhere further to fall at this point.

And, uh, I hear all this commotion.

I don't know what's going on.

And, uh, the guys in the vents are talking about, yeah, trade center, whatever.

I was like, ah, that sounds like a good book.

Yes.

Send it over.

You don't know that the, then we just go bomb no idea.

No idea, but, uh, they start bringing in all the guys off the compound that have any sort of charges, explosives.

Terrorism, like, whatever.

So they bring all these guys in and I end up getting shuffled to this other cell.

And, you know, it's during this period where I'm like, okay, like, there's nowhere further to fall.

I got to start doing something different.

And, uh, fortunately, I got connected with some really good people who believe it or not for the first time in my life.

I had someone become a mentor.

Like positively influenced me, saw my passion for all things fitness related.

And, uh, this guy, Kevin McTaggart was like, so you're in the, you're in federal prison for a year, looking at a life sentence.

I mean, 213 years.

Yep.

Um, and 9-11 hits.

What was, what was like, what was your, what was your drug of choice when you were running the streets?

Uh, mostly cocaine, ecstasy, ketamine.

Yeah.

The late 90s was all the club drugs and was very much caught up in that whole scene out there.

And then you just start running and gun and robbing places and feed your habit.

Yep.

And what's your, what's your physical capability?

We're in good shape or we're just a mess being up for three, four days at a time.

I mean, mentally, you shot out at that point.

Oh, yeah, all the way gone.

Mentally gone.

Physically, I'm still, you know, I grew up.

Very good athlete, heavily recruited basketball player, got recruited to a high school college prep.

Well, I mean, I had those opportunities, but I wasn't mentally sound.

Um, and my background didn't prepare me to be in those environments.

Like I was already a little too aggressive.

Um, so like it just, those things all led me toward prison and, you know, even when I was running hard.

Being young, you know, your body recovers pretty quick.

So I think you're invincible.

Yeah, it didn't, it didn't have as much of a negative physical effect.

Uh, but coming into prison, like gave me an opportunity to, like I learned very quickly to, to be able to keep myself mentally balanced.

Literally from climbing the walls going crazy, I had to work out.

Now, John, I mean, you, you go to prison, you're sober.

Yeah.

Right.

You get hit with a 35 years sentence, you're sober before you even get there.

Yeah.

What, what is it like for you?

What was your defining moment where you said, Hey, you know what?

I've got, I've got to change the way I am.

I'm not going to make it out of here.

I mean, or, or, Hey, I'm committed.

You know, I mean, you must win in there going 35 years.

To life sentence, I'm never getting out who cares.

Right.

Like Adam, you know, and me and Adam's story of very similar, especially, you know, the common denominator that we have.

And of course, we did time together.

But I just felt like, Hey, you know what?

I had one foot in 80X, which is, you know, the most secure prison in the country, because I wanted to show everybody that, you know, I'm a tough guy.

You know what I'm saying?

So that was my whole kind of life.

And you're doing 35 years.

I mean, I'm in 11 worth penitentiary.

He was in Allenwood penitentiary, both the highest security, just different places.

You know what I mean?

With just different, same people, same environment.

You know, same, you know, context.

But you know, I wanted to show you that I was the toughest guy.

And you ask about, you know, pivotal moments.

So actually, when I get to McCain, which is about three, four, five years later, I never met Kevin McTagget.

But a lot of my friends knew him.

And I wrote him a letter saying, Hey, I need to sell in a job when I get there.

And I had my wife at the time send it.

So Kevin McTagget, who's Kevin McTagget?

Well, I had the opportunity to meet Kev early on.

Right.

And I got to Allenwood.

He was that guy who was already well established.

Everybody knew him.

Respected him.

Regardless of, you know, the higher level security, there's a lot of segregation by race.

There's a lot of politics.

Kev was probably the only person I ever saw throughout my time in prison.

Who was able to transcend all of that, not just with his peers, but the level of respect that staff gave.

Right.

It was like mind-boggling because it just defined all the politics, everything.

No, what's Kevin's story?

1986 Sentence to Life, right?

Sentence to Life.

So by this time.

Cleveland, Ohio.

Yeah.

His case is like old.

So he's old, old lock.

Yeah.

A lot of things have changed by the time I get in there in 2000.

This guy's already been in a while, been established.

Yeah.

It's an older case.

The background is, you know, Cleveland, Danny Green.

You know, there was a lot going on.

This is, like you said, 80s, 70s, 80s.

Yeah.

But the similarities are Kev was a young guy too.

You know, and I think there's commonalities in that.

Guys in the young men in their early 20s, like we make a lot of mistakes.

Sure.

And you end up around a lot of people in a lot of different circles.

It's not necessarily by choice.

It's, you know, it's where you are, where you're from.

And it's easy to get caught up in those things.

And he was with a group that they charged the whole group.

And, you know, you get into Rico cases.

And you're responsible for everybody else's conduct, right?

Whether that's, you know, fair or not.

And, you know, Kev got pulled into this case and admittedly was, you know, a part of this group.

But they put a lot on him as a young man.

And as soon as theirs was called relevant conduct, which is a different standard.

And I don't want to get too far into the legal aspects of that.

But, you know, it, it's a different penalty because people, though,

you don't have to be found directly guilty of that, right?

A judge can just be like, well, we know that this person was killed and you were around it.

So you two are responsible.

And I'd say that's really, you know, what led to Kev.

And that plays into all this, you know, security are the sentencing guidelines

and all that other stuff that, you know, a kind of, you know, from the stuff that I've read

and I've known people like the judge has complete, complete discretion

to sentence you to whatever.

And I mean, you're a victim of that also, which would have 213-year sentence.

But Kevin, Kevin seeks, you see, you know, what does Kevin seek you out?

Does he see something in you? What is it?

So I, as I said, I came in there pretty hard.

And that caused people to take notice.

But I was also, I spent, you know, a lot of time in the gym.

I had a lot to get out of me.

I was very angry back then.

I blamed everyone and everything else, right?

Blamed the whole world for the time that I was serving.

And I was in the gym going hard every day.

And Kev saw something in me.

So beyond just the drive that I had, I think you also, you know, saw part of himself.

A young guy just coming into this system has all this time.

Like, I'm at that, you know, proverbial fork in the road.

Am I going to, you know, turn my life into being about creating a reputation in here?

Or am I going to hold on to hope that eventually I'm going to get a second chance.

I'm going to have this opportunity and to not blow that.

And Kev did something very simple.

He created space for me, right?

Invited me into his space.

Listen, real estate's expensive.

No matter where you are.

But in prison.

Especially in prison.

In prison, it's man.

And Kev invited me into his space to work alongside of him.

And what did he say that he's, did he ever say anything like,

you're wasting your talent, kid, like smotting up, like get your shit together?

I think there are all of those things and more.

Oh, yeah.

Probably not so nice.

Yeah, I'm sure.

I'm sure.

And, and yeah, like Kev was, Kev was more a big brother, right?

I remember one time I'm down there.

I'm in the gym and I'm drinking before I work out, getting ready to work out.

That's about a bad idea.

That's a really bad idea.

And he's like, what in the fuck is wrong with you?

He's like, come here, man.

He's like, are you trying to, like, are you trying to go back to the whole?

And it was just the way that he said it.

Like it was genuine.

He cared.

And I'm like, you know what?

It caused me to stop and think.

I'm doing some dumb stuff.

Yeah, especially a guy like that.

He said he's respected by his peer group.

He's respected by the administration.

And who are you to disrespect him?

That's probably the way I would look at it.

Like, hey, you know what?

This guy's giving my space, like you said, your words.

And now, like, I'm kind of embarrassing him or kind of putting him on a spot saying, you know,

you gave him an opportunity.

I mean, why was he so respected?

I mean, probably because he was who he was on the street, took the weight that he took when he got sentenced.

But what made him gain that respect of both sides?

So yeah, part of it.

And there's an interesting dynamic there, right?

As I'm sure Johnny can attest, when you come in, people know you by the amount of time that you have,

the amount of time that you served, you know, who you've been around.

So that's the first part.

And then over time, people just see how you move.

And that determines how you carry yourself.

Yeah.

The level of respect that people are going to give you.

And when you live in a fishbowl, you can't hide anything, right?

Right.

Right.

Everything is out in the open.

Everything's seen.

And Kev just lived to like a high standard always, consistently.

And so really one of the things, and I had heard a rumor about this,

but I never asked them about it.

And it was about him saving a staff member.

Yep.

And there was this rumor like, yeah, I heard he saved this woman.

And I was like, hmm.

And it was something I didn't, you know, you don't bring up because here's the strange thing.

If you wanted to know.

Interesting dynamic.

He's going to get it.

But that's the whole thing is.

So what Kev, it was a dichotomy, right?

Because listen, people that hate you are going to talk negatively about you.

Just because they don't even know you.

Right.

But now the dynamic in prison is where 100% anti-cop.

If you're walking down the hall where you see a nurse getting raped, who cares?

She's a cop.

See, that's the mindset of some people.

Not our mindset, not the mindset of Kev.

And I think that's what, you know, Adam is trying to illustrate here is that, you know,

some people had negative things to say about Kevin.

And because of that, he had such a great rapport with staff.

But I think the key for me in Adam is, in for me, Adam was one of the guys that I seen as an example.

Because when I walked into McCain, I seen the way everybody treated Kev.

Like, you know, he was like, oh, this is my friend, Johnny Biden.

Did you know Kev before you got there?

Never, but I told you I had sent him a letter because my friends knew him.

You know, guys from Cleveland, Ohio, that were in the club knew him.

There was respected guys, prisoners from Cleveland, Ohio, that knew him.

And everybody had good things to say about Kev.

And so I think what Adam was trying to get at was just a, it's almost a dichotomy.

Because he helped the cop, but he was great with us.

He had classes.

But I seen Adam when I went to McCain, who was, you know, from the tree of Kev.

So Kev was at the top of this tree that was a mentor to a lot of people.

So when you get to, when you get to McCain, right?

And you, you know about Kev, you see how he's conducting himself.

Never met Adam before.

Never met him.

But Kev introduced me.

What's your, what's your state of mind this point?

So I'm still like, I'm half a wild kid.

But I'm like starting to calm down a little bit.

I went from a penitentiary.

Something's having changed.

Yeah.

So I went from a penitentiary to a medium.

And now when I see Kev acting the way he acts.

And I see, we used to always bust each other's chops saying, oh, you're bootlicking.

You know, that was the thing we were saying.

But bootlicking is, you know, hey, we helped the cops buff the floors.

We're saying, hey, whatever you need from us, I got you.

Now Kev used to shovel the outside of the unit.

But then we got to keep, we didn't have weights there, but we got to keep the water bags.

A cop used to open the door.

Let us keep the water bags downstairs.

How was that received by the Peer Group?

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So, now, again, there was a whole bunch of people that now you have another guy.

Adam obviously took 213 years because he didn't tell on a big name person.

You have me that took a 35-year deal because I signed the plea agreement so my friends wouldn't get in trouble.

So now that's furthering.

In Kevin took all this, what he talked about was relevant conduct.

It's a different standard.

What innocence guilt, right?

A jury doesn't decide.

The judge just says, hey, you know what?

Based upon my determination, you did this, so he gave him time.

And now, Kevin never said, well, you can't give me that much time, it wasn't even me.

It was this guy that never said anything.

So you have these guys with this proven reputation that have found a way to be both mentors to other inmates

and to have a great rapport with staff.

So was he the one like Adam?

Was he the guy that you said, hey, you know what?

I'm going to smarten the fuck up.

Definitely.

And I'm going to get into these programs.

I'm going to try to find a way out of here.

100%.

And you were the same.

Who was a Kevin McTaggot to Kevin McTaggot?

So now that's a very interesting question.

I don't know.

I just think the Kevin McTaggot to Kevin McTaggot was the incident with the staff and how everybody treated him afterwards

because now, like, people might hate you, might hate what you stand for.

Couple do.

Right?

And, you know, somebody would attack your girlfriend, but that person that was your opposition says, I don't care who the woman is.

I'm helping the woman.

Absolutely.

Right?

So you would have to say, hey, you know what?

You're my opposition, but you're welcome to my home anytime.

Right?

So this is kind of how it wasn't how the staff treated Kevin.

You know, Adam tells it more eloquently because he's a very good speaker.

I always say after I got a seat and talk after Adam, it's like, oh my God, how do you, you know, do that?

So saying what are the programs that are available?

Like after you, after you, you know, get squared away and say, hey, look, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to adopt the Kevin McTaggot model.

Right?

Because it's probably a lot easier that way than 100%.

Normally how we would approach things, you know, being from where we're from, we're like, all right, let's put our head down.

Do the best we can and see where we end up.

It's the mind, right?

So the body, we were easy with that.

I'm saying we can act like tough guys.

We proved that to everybody from day one.

But now try to get an A and algebra, try to, you know, do a personal train of course and get all the answers right to get your certificate.

You know, but that's what some of the programs that you got into.

Great question.

Well, the first early on it was, and to back up on that question about Kevin, like, who was the one that opened that door for Kevin?

I think to Johnny's point, it was Kevin.

Kevin was the first one and did a lot of things that had never been done before.

And it was seen the way that he moved and the things that he did that was like, oh, wow, we can do that?

100%.

And I didn't, honestly, I didn't believe it at first.

I'm like, that's just an anomaly.

But Kevin opened those doors for me.

So up in recreation, Kevin had been invited to create his own classes, fitness classes.

And that opened the door.

Kevin came to me as like, do you want to do one too?

And I was like, I'd never thought of that.

So for the first time in my life, I had someone giving me the support that I needed to do something that I was actually passionate about.

And I'm like, I got so into creating this course that then, you know, I'm facilitating, I'm helping other guys.

And I'm like, wow, this is it.

And that I was able to parlay into when we got to McCain, had a higher level support, because again, Kevin got there first.

He got there two years before I did.

So I show up off the bus, just like Johnny.

And he's literally there with a bed roll.

Like, I'm going to come on.

Amazing.

Already new.

Like, I'm coming out of R&D.

He's like, got a cell for you over here.

And right back up into recreation.

So we're doing the classes again, but now we get administrators in who are saying, like, what more?

What more do we want to do?

And it's kind of shifting larger, big picture.

But when you're creating these programs, I mean, you look at it and I've built a lot of programs up through my job.

When you're creating programs and you're creating opportunity for people, it kind of takes the temperature down in a lot of volatile situations.

100%. Right?

So it's like, you might have a disagreement with someone, but you know, you're going to see them in this program, be like, hey, you know what?

What would happen this morning?

You know, let's let's forget it.

I mean, is that part of the part of the process with some of these programs that you created?

Very much.

So that was the whole purpose.

Because politics got to be brutal.

Brutal.

You know, it's all politics.

I deal with it all day long in a different avenue.

We're dealing with it on a posted site.

Yeah.

So you might not have to, you can go home and hang out with your girl.

We stayed in all day night with people.

So why wouldn't, like, you talk about you did 20 years, you did 27, right?

Why wouldn't the federal system or even the state system want to embrace and, and, and, you know, some people can't be rehabilitated.

It must be realistic, right?

But there are a lot of people that made some bad decisions early in life.

And look, I made some bad decisions.

I just didn't get caught, right?

And why wouldn't they embrace programs that are going to actually better people and keep the temperature down in volatile situations,

but give people an opportunity to seek some sort of redemption and, and a shot?

Why wouldn't, is it just, hey, let's throw these people away and let's, you know, leave it up to them?

I would say it's a difference of management styles.

Those who thrive off of being authoritarians who want to control everything, want there to be, you know, dysfunction, want there to be friction, tension, because it gives them the reason to then control the situation, gives them the authority for that.

And, conversely, when things are going really well, you know, and people can sit back and just allow things to happen, that takes a much stronger leader.

I look at controlling a situation as creating an environment where you're going to promote, you know, some sort of, not solidarity, but some sort of, you know, ability to bring people together that normally wouldn't talk to each other, that normally wouldn't cohabitate.

That is the best, I mean, creating discontent and hate.

It's just going to continue. It's never going to end. People are going to get hurt.

Conversely, too, though, what I would say, too, into springboard of atoms, the answer is that on our side, you know, there'd always be people whispering to each other, they're talking to the cops, they're, you know, they're on the cops side.

You know what I'm saying? So you kind of have that, you know, like, they call it like Jeff in, you know what I'm saying?

Right. Do they have all kinds of terms, but you have to understand, right? Look who the guys they're talking about. I'm saying, well, you're going to take it from the source.

I mean, if people are people of bitter, it's jealousy, it's jealousy, it's jealousy. Progress.

It's jealousy. So, you know, God forbid, you know, we're in there and I'm going to look for an opportunity to get out.

I mean, you're going to, you're going to stand up like a man when you have to, right?

But you're going to carry yourself in a way where, hey, I want to get out of here. I want to better myself. I want to be a better person in society. How do I do that?

Right.

I want another chance. Right. So, but these guys were the example for me. What out these guys I would have never, you know, because I didn't think it was possible.

I don't want nobody talking about me. I have a reputation to uphold. That's the way you go into prison.

But these guys, and they were not guys that were like weak guys, not guys that were, you know, frowned upon in prison.

These were like solid guys. These were like good guys. Strong guys work out every day. Right.

So, when they did that, when I seen that, Adam devised in curriculums for kids on the street.

So, what that allowed me to do in the next institution I went to was when I learned Spanish two years later was to devise two Spanish curriculums and teach Spanish.

So, that who are you teaching Spanish to? To people, you know, inmates in prison at a low security institution and at a camp as well.

You know, but just think those people that had the benefits of that seen me and maybe got the spark to say, hey, I want to do this.

Are other people that got the spark to say, hey, I'm not really so passionate about Spanish, but I want to learn about mechanical engineering.

I should get a book. Johnny got the book. He said, so, but you understand, but that is the springboard for everything is education.

When I got education in my life, it allowed me to dream big. I had confidence.

But you had a fight for that education. I mean, these people on these counselors in the system isn't promoting education, right?

Not at all.

So, you have to actually figure out what it is and how to get there and how do you qualify for it.

Because I would assume everything is qualifications on a lot of these programs, right?

And if you have a long sentence, you're generally disqualified from it.

So because they're thinking you're never going to need those life skills because you never got no hundred percent.

How is that? How is that right? How is that just? I mean, look, if you get a long sentence, right? You're going to be there a long time.

Just common sense would say, hey, these guys are going to be here a long time. They get two choices.

They can either run and gun or they can better themselves.

And to your point, what you guys do, mentor these next people coming, this next generation, so to speak, coming in.

And what is wrong with that? Why are we not embracing these programs? And what are you doing right now?

I mean, let's talk about you for a second. Get back to you.

You did 20 years. When did you know you had a shot? What time in your sentence did you know you were going to have a shot to try and get out?

What was that like?

Interesting question. Like, I believed that eventually I was going to get the opportunity, but I was also realistic.

I'm like, man, I'm going to do some time. Like, once I settled in 2005, my appeals are final.

I know that it's going to take some time. Nobody's talking about criminal justice reform, right? Like, wasn't even a conversation.

And I think it's probably around 2008 or nine read about the time that I met my wife.

Row, let's talk about row.

How does me row doing a shift to a 213 year ripple?

Oh, man. That's the best question of the day.

How do I meet her? So over that first 10 years, Kev puts me on this path to ultimately, like, pursue my passion for all things,

help and fitness related, become a certified indoor spin instructor, personal certification, do all these things in prison, amazing.

Change my identity. So people aren't looking at me as, you know, that same maniac that came in.

Right.

Now I'm the fitness guru. So for the first time, I'm like, I'm viewed in a positive light. I have something to contribute instead of simply taking.

And so this big bodybuilder comes in bald head, you know, just jacked.

And they're like, go see Adam.

And he's from Jersey. So he's from from my area too.

Uh, guy comes me super high energy. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, like, dial it down, man.

Like, I'm on my Zen thing right now. I'm very much at peace.

He's ready to road rage. Yeah. And he's, he's full steam coming into the USP again, trying to establish himself.

And, you know, very quickly, he's like, Hey, my girl is going to be coming up here. She's got a friend.

Why don't, you know, why don't you, you know, you go out there and see her.

So that was like prison tender back then.

Oh, man, it was, you know, internet's come a long way.

But back then in the early 2000s, everybody was on penpal websites.

So when somebody went online and looked up, you know, was just looking randomly for people.

These prison penpal sites would pop up. And you're like, guys in prison.

And, you know, you get all different sorts of people writing you and, you know, anyways.

So I'd been through all that. And I'm like, listen, I'm cool.

I got a, I got a long time to do. I'm better, you know, by myself.

I had cut off ties to my past, my, some, some very draining relationships.

And I'm literally like totally at peace.

And this guy's trying to get me hooked me up with this girl.

And he keeps telling me about her lat spread and man, you should see her.

And I'm like, no offense, but I'm, I'm just not into that.

Like big bodybuilder, chicks.

Yeah. And, uh, but he's persistent.

And he's like, just talk to her.

So we had just gotten the email system in.

And since Alan Wood was a level six penitentiary,

which had a number of the spies there and other people,

we had cryptographers on staff that monitored everybody's mail phone calls.

So they could read your email. They could read everything.

Everything. So, and you probably would limited on what you could look up on the internet and everything.

Nothing. No internet. No internet. No.

So it's just strictly email.

They bring these email systems, these kiosks in.

And they're like, hey, we're going to put these on every unit.

Go ahead. We're running a pilot.

And I'm like, oh, man.

Have you ever used a computer at this point in time?

I've used a computer, but I can't say I'm like computer savvy.

Right.

You know, I came in in 99, 2000.

Yeah. I got my first computer in 1999.

It was a gateway.

Gateway computer. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, forget it.

Yep. So far cry from where we are today, especially with smartphones.

None of that existed back then.

So, um, but I'm putting stuff online.

I have people 14 to social media.

I'm doing blog posts because I realize at this point,

I got a lot of negative stuff out there.

Like it's on me to put something positive out in the world.

So I start writing all this.

And I get basically marketing yourself at this point in time.

100%.

Yep.

Trying to rehab my image.

And, uh, she's out there reading my stuff online.

And she sees, you know, I got a little Facebook page that talks about, you know, my sentence.

And so she's had an opportunity to see who I am.

And meanwhile, his girlfriend is trying to convince her.

It's a good idea to go see this guy that's serving a life sentence.

Sure.

In a level six maximum security.

I mean, listen, makes perfect.

I can't wait to meet Ro.

But I gotta be honest with you, right?

Like, I would like to go, if I knew her, she's like, yeah, I'm going to see this guy.

He's got a 213-year RIPPA.

Like, I'd be like, are you all right?

No, yeah.

I'd be like, are you all right?

Believe me.

Everybody.

Everybody.

And I mean, that was a total respect.

My mom still asked her, like, I don't know how you did it.

I don't know why you ever got with him.

So I'm like, mom, you're supposed to be on my team, man.

But honestly, like, who's going to support that?

And it's got to be a special loyal person.

It is.

So here's the cool thing, right?

So I had had a number of relationships in my young life.

All of them, like, just toxic.

Nothing good came out of them.

But she and I get connected on these emails.

And honestly, like, within a few weeks, I've just constantly back and forth.

I'm finding myself.

I'm on the yard.

I'm like, I need to go back in and check the email.

Like, let me go see if she wrote anything else.

So I love.

And I'm like, oh, God, what's going on here?

And I realized I know this woman better than any of my previous relationships.

And I knew them much, much longer, right?

And I'm like, wow, what does that say about me?

Like, how shallow I've been.

But how amazing.

And at the same time, like, how cruel.

Like, this is the circumstance that I meet.

Like, exactly the woman I'm on the same page with.

But also admittedly, I'm at a different point in my life.

Like, I don't drink.

I don't smoke.

I'm all about health and fitness.

Like, I've made a radical, you know, right.

And she was able to see it like everybody else.

Yeah.

Because you were putting yourself out there, which probably helped you to get what

you are today.

I mean, think about, think about everybody remembers all the bad shit about everybody.

Not a lot of people think about promoting what they are now, as opposed to what they were

back then.

So what was her, was she encouraging you?

Look, you got to try and get on this road or was someone else encouraging you?

When did you know that you had an opportunity or there was an opportunity to get out?

Yeah, she was, she was my number one advocate.

So she came up on that first visit.

She walked in.

I looked at her.

I was like, Oh, God.

I'm in trouble.

She didn't look like China from WWE.

No.

She's pretty.

So pretty kid.

Yeah, I didn't know until the day before the visit what she actually looked like.

Right.

And that guy came in and slapped down the pictures.

And I remember catching my breath like, Oh, God.

Like, what is she going to look like?

And I said, you know what?

I said, I'm not going to be shallow.

And I remember just exhaling being totally at peace.

And he pulls out the first picture.

And it's her right after she won 2008 Miss Fitness New Jersey.

And she's holding up the American flag behind her.

And she's lean.

She's ripped.

But she's Miss Fitness, right?

And I'm like, Oh, my God.

Wow, I scored.

Yeah.

And I got there on the next day.

And I see her.

And just the connection was there.

And I was like, Oh.

So she becomes my biggest advocate, right?

And through her, I connect to my attorney, who's a formerly a federal bank robber,

turned law professor, criminal defense attorney, he becomes my legal advocate.

She on the outside is able to connect me to him.

She's able to connect me to family members, other people who ultimately get behind us.

And she believes she's like, I'm going to get him home.

And I know that she believes his whole heart.

Now, what is she doing for work at this point in time?

Is she working or is she just focused totally on you getting your foot?

Yeah.

No, she's working.

She's working.

She comes from a big Italian family up in North Jersey, like very stereotypical, right?

This tight Italian family.

They have a pizza.

Everything evolves around food.

Yep.

Everything, like literally they own a pizza.

And trust me, you can relate to her.

I can't really.

For me, it's Boston.

It's all about the food, right?

They're eating, you know, they could be eating Christmas dinner, talking about what they're going to have for supper.

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Yep.

And, you know, what family wants this for their sibling, for their daughter?

So it becomes this thing that she doesn't talk about.

But we always believe, like, once I get out and we connect, like,

we build those relationships completely confident into that.

But that was a very tough thing for her because she didn't have any support.

Right?

And even her best friends, they're like, okay, even if he is a good guy.

Like, he's never getting out.

What are you doing?

Outside of her, did you have support while you were in prison from family and friends or

did you kind of go right to the bad people in your life?

Right?

Obviously because they weren't good mentally for you.

And, John, I know you had a great support network.

When you were away, what was your support network like prior to her?

Prior to her, both of my parents were there for me.

Like, obviously not real happy that I ended up that way.

Early on, the feds, they told my father that I was involved in a string of dollar store robberies

where the manager was murdered.

And this was a huge thing on the national news.

But the federal government would lie?

Shocker.

So, my father and his wife being good, you know, their state employees,

you know, they believed the feds when they told them that.

And it wasn't until after I was sentenced, convicted, and everything else came out.

And they're like, we don't believe it.

We don't believe that they lied to us.

And they very much turned, became anti-government like because they felt so betrayed.

Sure.

And I'm sure they felt guilty about turning their back on me during that critical time.

But it's also like I completely understand that.

And they're citizens, right?

And John, you had a complete opposite.

I mean, your parents stood by you.

They were, you know, my mother was, her philosophy was, John, I don't care how many times you get in trouble.

I'll sell the house and everything in it so you'd come back home.

Right.

That was, you know, and she'd be in the front row at the St. Anthony statue, you know,

Italian one at the St. Anthony statue.

Sure.

So, yeah, no, it was a little bit different.

And I, you know, I mean, just different.

Yeah, different.

Everybody supported me.

They wouldn't care if, you know, that was, you know, an axmer or they supported me.

And, you know, just to touch on what Adam was saying about,

I know exactly how he felt about row.

Row was like, you know, I'm going to get you out.

And then I know there was some nice that Adam was like, this girl's out of her mind.

So, if you never met.

Never getting out of prison.

If you never met.

That's how you feel.

If you never met row, you may not have got hooked up with that attorney, right?

Or were you working, were you working on it previously?

She became my lifeline too.

Because although you, you have email, right?

Right.

You need someone on the outside who's making the additional connections.

Because you have to get someone on the other end to accept a correlates invitation.

Right.

And that's like cold calling, right?

Like you can't just end.

It's so hot to find.

They make it so like it goes into your junk mail.

Yeah.

It's a whole process.

Right.

Yeah.

So she was the key to all of that and building a website and like recruiting other people on board.

Literally to the point.

So she did a marketing campaign.

Oh yeah.

Basically, and you know, found the right attorney who was willing to take your case.

And what was, what was your appeal or what was your appeal to get out?

Like, what is that process?

The first, so federal appeals, you get one line of appeals.

2005 done over.

I know right then and there.

And to be honest, I vividly recall that day when I got the,

they slid it very unceremoniously under my door.

They're like legal mail.

Here you go.

And I opened it up and it said literally bold black denied.

That's it.

That's it.

You're serving the rest of your life in prison.

I freaked out a little bit.

Kicked my locker in.

And like physically exhausted myself.

And then I was like, okay.

Now what?

And I know other people heard me in there because it's during count time.

It's quiet.

And they're like, that must not have been good news.

But it was at that point.

It's like, okay, now what?

What are you going to do?

And, and I made that determination.

I'm like, I got to do things different.

I'm going to keep pushing.

But I know that Congress either has to change the law.

These 924 C's, these mandatory minimums.

Or I have to get a president of the United States to sign off and commute my sentence.

Not like erase it, a pardon, but just reduce it so that I can get out.

And at this time, early 2000s, not happening.

There's no chance either one of those things he's going to have.

Well, plus there was such a distraction going on with, you know, the 2001 September 11th attacks.

And the Afghanistan and all that stuff.

So the federal government was focused on terrorism and probably not focused on people who,

you know, thought were going to be thrown away.

Never given a second chance.

Yeah.

That's what it was.

So it wasn't until, like I said, 2009, 2010, Congressman Bobby Scott started talking about an amendment to 924 C.

Ro got very actively involved in that.

And that put it at least into the conversation.

But fast forward a number of years, we get all the way to the Obama years.

And it's 2015, 2016.

It's the clemency lottery.

It's like, you get clemency.

No, you get clemency.

There's really no rhyme or reason for who's getting it.

Yeah.

What was the criteria just?

I mean, there was written criteria, but it was, it was very random.

And here's the thing.

And this is where unfortunately, Kevin, I went on this ride together.

So I was in...

I was Kevin trying to do the same thing you would doing.

Was Ro helping him as well?

Or was Kevin on his own trajectory?

Kevin had his own support already in place.

He's got a ton of support out there in the community.

I mean, he's got the ex chief of police of Cleveland.

He's got the prosecutor that put him away.

Yeah.

The prosecutor.

The prosecutor with judge.

The judge put him away.

Is supporting his release.

Right.

And he's got the form of Congressman, right?

Former Congressman.

Bernie Cosa.

Yeah, I saw Bernie Cosa.

Bernie Cosa, the Browns quarterback wants to let him live with his house.

That poor guy's looking rough.

Yeah.

You know?

He's got wardens.

Like to get a letter from a warden while you're in custody is impossible.

Right.

Next door impossible.

He's got multiple.

Right.

He's got multiple wardens who have gone on record written extensively saying, I think this guy.

So how did you find...

DJ Whitmore.

Today, I get a text today from a guy that was in McKean, what else?

That was an administrator.

He became a warden somewhere else that says, hey, how you making up with Kevin's case?

Is there any way I can get involved?

What do you need from me?

A former warden.

Right.

He sold to me.

Yep.

So that's how much support he has.

So you get out 2020.

Yep.

What is it like?

I mean, what does it like when they say, you know, when it slides under the door and it doesn't say denied this time?

I wish it happened that way, but it didn't happen that way.

So on the...

When I actually got the news, so there was two parts.

One was getting my sentence vacated.

So that...

How did that happen?

Through my attorney had filed, you know, put everything into the court.

And there was a question over whether the judge had the legal authority to actually grant this.

And my attorney had gone to great lengths, like written articles in all the law journals,

reached out to the mass media, had really built a record, and had taken all of these...

I'm going to say lesser cases.

And what I mean by lesser cases is just less time, less severity.

It's a little bit easier to get one of those in front of a judge, and a judge will go, okay, I'm going to give this guy a break.

You're not taking me, a repeat violent offender.

Yeah, it's not taking you up.

You're not pressed in a separate case.

You're not first up at bat.

Right.

Definitely not.

But here we are, like this 2018 was when we started this.

It's now 2020, and I'm like, tick tock, man.

We want to have a family.

You know, Ro is very seriously talking about, like, I don't know how many more years I have.

And I'm like, there's a lot of pressure to move this thing forward.

Like, we need to take our shot.

And so we took that shot.

It comes back.

We get the sentence vacated.

Which is like, should be a great reason to celebrate, right?

So what does that mean, vacated?

It means you no longer have 213 years, but we don't know how much time we're going to give you yet.

We have to give you less time, but less time means 210, 50, like literally the slate is clean.

He can do whatever he wants.

So we now have to figure out, like, how do we advocate to this guy?

And a side note here.

So 2016, Kevin, I go on that clemency ride.

Right.

And they release these lists randomly.

And everybody on the outside row her entire support network, strong prison wives and families.

They're all online.

And they're like, oh my god, there's a list.

And there's hundreds or thousands of names.

And you're looking through them to find your loved one.

Sometimes they're approved.

Sometimes they're denials.

So you're constantly on this rollercoaster.

Oh my gosh, is he on it?

Or I hope he's not on this one.

These are denials.

And you never know when it's coming to live like that literally for a year, most stressful time of our lives.

And I remember the day when the case manager walked out and he goes,

Mick Taggart, we're standing on the rail.

We live in the cells right next to each other wall between us, right?

And we're both right there on the rail, like we usually are at this time right before account.

And he goes, Mick Taggart, he goes, yeah, you were denied.

And I was like, I wanted to fight him.

I did.

I'm so mad.

I'm like, right now, thinking about it.

And I still get mad.

Man, that's not how you give somebody that kind of news, right?

Right.

Man, I just watched it like that.

Just drain right out of them.

And I was like, oh my god.

So we go in for a count.

And after counting, he's like, well, he's like, it's on you now.

I'm like, no pressure here.

He's like, you're still in the running.

So he gets, he gets the wind taking out of his sill.

Real bad.

Yeah.

And the type of guy he turns you and said, all right, it's up to you now.

Yeah, you're a complete support.

You're up.

Man, whatever you need, I got you.

You got to go out there.

You got to get this done.

And right up until inauguration day, we, we were told that my petition was on Joe Biden's desk.

He did not sign it.

My wife, my mother, we're out front of the White House, candlelight vigil with can-do clemency,

you know, praying like, please hear us.

Didn't happen.

So right up until that last minute, they swear on President Trump.

And it's like, oh, man, criminal justice reforms dead for the next four years.

He's not going to do anything with this.

That's what we thought.

That's what everything was.

Was that the word?

Was that the word?

That's so we're conservatives, right?

We're conservatives in jail, but we need liberal policies to get us out of prison, you understand?

So we're like walking on a double-edged sword, but the same thing that helped him helped me, guys.

Did you watch my RNC speech when you were away?

Yes.

No, I wasn't away.

I was out.

We were?

Yeah.

Were you out there?

Oh, no kidding.

Yep.

So our other, our other friend watched it.

Yeah.

He said he had some arguments in there over it.

Yeah.

Well, you know, it happens.

It happens.

There's a lot of political arguments in prison.

Crazy.

So, yeah.

So fast forward.

Kev wasn't there in 2020.

He moved, went to my limb, Michigan, needed to get to a better place, had the opportunity.

I was like, man, go.

Please.

And so he wasn't there when I got the sentence vacated.

And then it's, I'm sorry, let me add this part.

So the US pardon attorney back in 2016 was a guy named Bob Zowsmer.

Bob Zowsmer was a US attorney from Philly, who was put in that office to help with those

petitions.

He signed off on my petition to get it to the White House.

Now, did he know?

Did he know, he knew your history, knew who you were because he was US attorney and Philly,

right?

So he knew my past.

He knew everything.

He signed off and let it go to the White House.

So fast forward to 2020.

He put in the petition and I get an email from my attorney.

He says, call me.

And it's funny how you can tell, like it's a good call me or a bad call me.

You know right away.

And you know from the first tone of the hello, like you can tell that's, it's one of the

things that you pick up in prison, right?

And so I have just this pit in my stomach, I'm like, I know what this is.

I was like, I don't want it to be true.

This guy better not have offered this, but let me call him.

I get on the phone.

I call him and he was like, Hey, you know, since I'm your attorney, I have to ask you

this.

I was like, you got to be kidding me.

He goes, they said that the only way, Bob's Alzheimer said the only way that they will

support this motion for a compassionate release is if you agree to cooperate.

Mind you, I've been in over 20 years at this point, cooperate on what?

There's nothing.

You can, you do not know the guy that hit you from behind playing street hockey.

So there is absolutely nothing like I am living a totally different life.

They know where I'm at.

The only reason for that is to get me to tap out, right?

And I tell him and thank God, bro, and I like, I don't even have to question this.

We're on the same page with all of it.

She completely understands where I stand.

She stands with me on all these things.

And he's like, I just, I have to let you know, I was like, Sean, I'm about right or ripped

his phone out the wall.

Oh, good.

I was like, you know what to tell him.

And so, but now I have to tell my family this.

I have to tell my parents, yeah, but you know what?

I mean, listen, some of the cooperates to save their own ass.

I mean, that's, that's a problem.

I mean, everything you've ever done or I've ever done in my life has been because of

me and only me in my decisions.

Go to bed.

Right?

And that's how bad the government is.

I mean, well, we're going to cooperate against something that happened 20 years ago.

Nothing.

You'd be, you'd be living in jail right now, even though you'd be on the outside.

Yes.

If you did that, well, they knew that there was nothing of substance that I could give

them.

The point was they wanted to take my credibility.

What I had spent 20 years, they know my plan is to go out and to be, to have this level

of credibility so that I can be an advocate, not just on the outside, but be able to go

back into prisons and be able to use my story, use my experience to have that same positive

influence.

And I'm not going to give that up like that is my whole life plan at this point, right?

So I was mad.

I was mad that he even, they even put that out there.

And so we push it forward.

He pushes to the court and the judge says, you know what?

I have the authority.

I'm vacating the sentence.

So now it's a whole different ballgame because now we have to go in for a sentencing.

It's COVID.

I don't go in.

We're going to do this thing via zoom and listen, there is only one person on the planet

that I would entrust to go in my place and advocate on my behalf and that's my attorney.

And that's because he was in federal prison.

He served 12 years.

He had a 924 C. He's the guy who was at the White House with the president.

When they passed the first step act, nobody knows this better.

Like we've had years of conversations about this.

So I entrust him with this.

Plus he's going to make the most credible argument.

Oh, he's the party person.

He is.

He's the living example.

All he has to say is like, I'm the reason why you give him the opportunity.

And basically went in, you know, went through my record, did all those things.

And I had done my part, right, to document everything.

And that's a difficult, the system's not set up to show anyone's personal transformation

in prison.

Right.

They don't keep track of all the programs.

They don't keep track of all the, the good you've done while you're in there.

Now, there are people that won't go to those steps that are probably never going to

get the opportunity because they're not documenting, they're not committed to doing it.

They're just going through the motions, which is kind of sad because with a little guidance,

you know, there is a lot of redemption to be sought, absolutely rehabilitation.

So fast forward, you get out in 2020, when you marry, roll like 10 minutes later, right?

I mean, to be honest, at that point, like we were in no hurry to get married.

We were on the honeymoon.

Don't get me wrong.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Hence, you have a kid of yelling, you're like nine months later, yeah.

Yeah.

There was, there was no wasting time on that.

So when you were getting out, I mean, you had to be a little bit, that had to be, I mean,

Johnny, I think you get out.

I mean, you're uncertain of what you're going to do.

You know, I mean, you're, you're in supervised release, right?

Yep.

And you're limited on what you can do, where you can move, what you can do.

There's got to be a little anxiety setting and saying, all right, I've been living this

life for 20 years, 27 years.

Like it's got to be a little scary coming out and saying, all right, there's all this

new technology, there's all these new nuances to life that I didn't experience.

What am I going to do for work?

How am I going to support my family?

What is my mission?

What is my mission going to be?

Because I got a second chance in life.

So that's a normal experience.

My experience was very different because I spent that second 10 years building this

community of incarcerated coaches.

And the purpose of those coaches was to help people prepare for that transition.

And in doing so, I got the opportunity to work with hundreds of men personally.

And each time it was me refining my own plan about when I got out.

But you look at the statistics, yeah.

You look at eight out of every 10 people, re-offend and end up back in there.

Those aren't good odds.

So how does a program that you created, how does a program that, you know, you base you

with the architect of through your experience?

Are you looking obviously looking to make that those statistics go down?

But how is that possible?

And what are you doing now to make sure that there are opportunities for when people get

out that they don't re-offend and end up back in prison?

So what I had the opportunity to do over that 10 years was develop a core curriculum, which

we call the core four.

And it's really, it's basic life skills, emotional intelligence, you know, establishing values,

belief systems, and really going through this course of personal transformation.

And having others who've already been through it, they're the ones there to support you

every step of the way.

So that was the core model.

And I came out of prison, like with the sole intent of getting back into prison to be able

to bring this program back in.

So part of my release.

And then there was a visitor, yes, yes, to come back in under different terms.

And I always knew like the moment I walked out the door, like the dynamic changes, right?

And as soon as you walk out that like I'm no longer in inmate, I'm not incarcerated,

like, not worth viewing each other on a different level, because there are some people in, you

know, that work in prisons that are very happy to be in those positions.

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And it did.

So my goal was to bring that back into prisons.

I spent a good portion of the last five years getting that program validated, which the

Pepperdine, Grazia Dio's School of Business has validated that core curriculum and the

pure model as having a less than 3% rate of recidivism, which to your point, like that

totally flips the statistics, but it doesn't really give the full picture.

Because the individuals who came out of that program, it's not just that they're staying

out of prison.

Like they're doing amazing things.

Well, I think, you know, I used to get criticized in the mid-2000s when I took over my

local union.

And where we grew up, you know, a lot of people went away, whether it was state of feds.

And they come back.

And the first place they go is to the union hall.

And of course, you know, I'm a loyal guy and I don't look down at anybody unless you're

a child, my last or a rapist or whatever.

But you know, I want to help people.

Like I want to put them to work.

And I had someone say to me, because I used to write letters all the time for people

to their parole offices, their probation offices, and one of my friends said, I'm going

to tell you, like getting people a job and giving them a purpose, like the union, meaning

my union at the time, you guys are the biggest success story in probation than anybody else.

Because when you're providing someone an opportunity and they're taking advantage of it and they're

going to work every single day and we joked about it earlier, the best hustle in America

right now is working, having a job, right?

You provide those opportunities, those life skills, you know, no one's going to reoffend,

right?

So for the most part, yeah, unless you're fueled by drugs or something else.

And the thing is too, I always just remember reading stories while I was in prison about

the team says, they're employing all ex-convicts like it was a scandal, no, but I'm saying

I'm thinking to myself, people are providing opportunities for people that are getting out

of prison.

It's ingenious.

It's almost, you know, like, you know, Samaritan, like, you know, you're doing like a great

thing for somebody and out of all those people, how many people reoffended, but it was a headline

and it was a negative headline.

Oh, awful.

It was awful.

Can you imagine that?

I mean, just think about, you know, if you, if perfect world, you know, you make a mistake

in your early 20s, late teens, early 20s, we'll live in proof of that.

You go away and you learn the life skills that, you know, you know, an experience and

around your dinner table with a good support family, you're, you're where you're at and

this program's in place that I'm going to say, hey, look, you do these programs, you,

it's kind of like an incentive program, you know, you check these boxes, we're going

to teach you how to weld, we're going to teach you how to lay brick, we're going to teach

you how to, you know, be an electrician.

And then you get the other part now that I think we're dealing with in the society is

what are we going to do with these folks that are coming out, but that we can get out

with the emergence of AI and technology, where jobs and opportunities are going to diminish.

Like that curriculum is probably going to have to be revamped to figure out how we navigate

through the changes, especially with technology.

Have you thought about that?

Oh, absolutely.

Listen, AI is a huge part of what we're doing.

So what we've done is take that core curriculum and we partnered with a company called

a HERA AI with world class world class AI developers connected with them about five years

ago, because I saw what they were doing back then, as far as their focus on education,

they had a virtual AI tutor that was helping people as a man.

This is what we need in prison and fast forward.

We now have our curriculum validated by Pepperdine.

We were looking to connect in AI coach, because right now the issue is you don't, it's

hard to get access to programs, but if we can put it on a tablet and how do we scale

what's how to get people to teach a curriculum, not like a civilian to go into it.

You can't get them in.

No, you can't get in prison.

So to solve for that, we're like, listen, we're going to use the technology to make sure

people have the support that they need, even on a prison tablet.

So what is the technology going to do, is going to teach the curriculum, the life skills,

promote education, what are some of the things that, because look, I fight against AI all

day long.

AI is extremely scary in our world.

It's scary because you look at autonomous vehicles, you look at, you know, efficiencies,

right?

Efficiency is mean job jobs go away.

And look, we all have to brace technology, but to design it like you're doing, being

part of the implementation, implementation process of it to kind of navigate through

how this is going to benefit people is a key to all this stuff.

And if you just throw something out there where people don't understand it, it's going

to be useless.

Exactly.

That's a great point.

So our focus is on leveraging the technology to make people's jobs easier so that they

can do more of what they enjoy doing, which is generally connecting with other people.

One of the things that we run into the biggest challenges in prison, where even on the outside

with any of our government support programs is the people who are supposed to be there

on support roles, case managers, counselors, they're overworked.

And a lot of times, you know, government contracts, you're forced to fill out all this

paperwork.

It's repetitive.

Imagine if we can automate that, right?

Like let's get AI to take care of that part.

So that person feels better about their job and they can actually focus on the person

instead of the paperwork.

Right.

So that's what we're talking about.

So you're actually going to eliminate a job.

You would just make this job more efficient where someone would have the focus of actually

focusing on the task at hand, not the administrative purpose of it.

More efficient.

What are some of the government programs that are out there that you're working on right

now?

I assume John, you're doing some of this stuff as well.

What are some of the programs?

What are some of the things that we're doing?

You're the engineer of this.

I mean, my area of expertise these days is in recovery.

So with prison and hand, though, what's sure?

With, you know, coming out because you need, first and foremost, people is that that

have a problem and they go into prison, usually centers, me and Adam, for sure, to common

denominator, drugs and alcohol.

So I mean, you need to be sober and not using drugs to assimilate the program that Adam

has that he's.

So is this program created?

You design to your point.

Your focus is on sobriety, your focus is on recovery, right?

Is this a program that it can be a hybrid, not just people in prison or coming out of

prison, but also in the, because not everybody that's a drug addict ends up in prison.

100%.

Is this a program where you can, you know, make a hybrid program for, you know, the recovery

centers that we're all familiar with, and we support.

His is just the core values of living as a citizen, right?

We sell for the lowest common denominator, which is to get it onto a prison tablet.

Like if you can make this successful on a prison tablet, picture what you can do with

this.

Yeah, right.

And that's the goal.

I mean, you have mastered that.

No.

Just on the edge.

I have to.

Oh, my God.

This kid with his phone.

Jesus Christ.

For guy that wasn't around technology for 27 years, he's all that bang, bang, bang.

You know, so the technology is great if, if you can navigate it, right?

The great thing about AI is that it can help you to navigate the technology.

It can be that personal assistant.

So this coach that we've created is there to not just help you through the core curriculum,

but it's meant to be there to encourage you in all aspects of your life.

The core curriculum is focused on, you know, building towards what is your life like five

years in the future?

You know, what does that look like?

What does your family look like?

It's asking great questions to help you develop a plan, a vision for your future, and

then to map it out and tell you, okay, well, what's step one?

Here's what we're going to do.

Step one.

And if that starts in prison, imagine how much you can utilize that time to gain progress

towards where you want to be.

And then when you walk out the door, that coach that's been with you five months, five

years, comes on to your phone, again, it's got all that in front of you.

A million more capabilities that it's going to continue to evolve, right?

Right.

I mean, that's the reality.

What he's saying is the capability of a prison tablet is you can watch a movie and play

a game.

If you had that curriculum, you would just have this one screen.

But now, picture if you could say, okay, go to this app, do this, complete this form

on this set.

You know, it has a lot more capabilities on the outside world, app prison tablets.

You can play games and watch movies.

That's it.

So imagine if, you know, imagine if I know I've got five months left, and I know that

I'm coming back to Boston.

And I'm like, wow, I'd love to get a union job out there.

If I can get connected through here, through this app, and it knows where I'm going, it

can tell me what my job opportunities are or to apply for an apprenticeship program where

this funding to support to support all that stuff.

The technology is going to connect me to the right resources.

We see ourselves as the bridge, so we're making connections.

That's it.

So where is this technology now?

Are you developing it or it's developing or evolving?

How are we trying to implement this into where you want it to be in the system?

Ideally, you know, the federal system is the place that I would love to be in.

We would love to get it started in the federal system because you have people all over

this country.

And we want this to be able to scale broadly.

I mean, I don't know a whole lot about it, but I'm just thinking of the top of my head.

It's like there's going to be so many jobs, white collar jobs, wiped out from AI, that there's

going to be an uptick in people looking to retrain against the trades, and I would assume

the same holds true when someone coming out after being in for a certain amount of time.

There has to be programs that the government could fund retraining, not just for the

white collar jobs that are gone, but also people coming out.

I mean, this should be money allocated for this type of training because I think $81

billion a year has spent on incarceration in the United States, where if you took a

fraction of that money, and you just actually put it into a program, imagine this, put it

into job training reentry.

I mean, the recidivism would be completely switched from the A to T.

So imagine if you knew, if I say, you know, whatever city, I'm going back to Philadelphia,

and my coach was able to tell me what jobs are in the highest demand, okay, and I get

to pick.

And I say, okay, wow, they need welders.

Awesome.

How do I get connected to well and like, where do I get signed up, where do I start

learning this?

And if there are apprenticeship programs, you know, that I can get connected to, I'm going

to get connected right here so that when I walk out the door, I already have a plan.

I know where I'm going day two, right?

I'm going to get my ID day one day two.

I'm going over here to get signed up for the apprenticeship program.

And my phone, you know, I live by Apple Maps.

So whatever city I'm in, you know, I, but to your point, you could be promoting, you

could be, you know, you got a certain amount of time left.

You could be setting this all up while you're in there, where your application process

for your apprenticeship program into a job training could be put through because you're

like, this is still going to be hoops, you're going to jump through this certain employees

that don't want to hire people with criminal records or can hire people.

But, you know, how do we, how do we promote this?

How do we help?

Is there something we've got to lobby the, the government for is a legislation we're looking

to pass?

Well, what are we trying to do here?

We're really just looking to get the administration behind this because a great, great place for

the, for the administration to start is the federal bureau of prisons, right?

Because they have direct control over that.

And historically, everybody talks about, well, the direction the federal system goes,

everyone else follows.

That's not the case.

The federal system has not led for a long time, but you have current leadership in there

who is changing the direction and they want to take the lead.

And this is a way for them to leapfrog forward.

So you both have been in DC this week.

Mm-hmm.

What have you been doing?

So I'm, well, we're really, I'm coming to see you, Sean.

I'm coming to see Christy.

Oh, here we go.

But I mean, you know, we're really, we're advocating for our friend, Kevin McTaggot.

We're trying to formulate a plan to get his name.

He just got denied his clemency.

So we're trying to find the vehicle, the most sensible vehicle and appropriate vehicle,

to get his name in front of the people that need to see it.

Because me and Adam are here as a result of the guy that's still in prison.

Kevin should be sitting here with Adam before me and, you know, there's probably another

guy that he's touched that, you know, we know about that, you know, should be sitting there

with, you know, Kevin before Adam, you understand?

So we're trying to advocate anything.

Now you're going to meet with, you're going to meet with senators, congresspeople, who

you're meeting with.

This week I was actually here as part of the United States Sentencing Commission.

There's annual amendment cycles.

Now you're on a board or something, right?

I am.

I was appointed to a three-year term on the sentencing impact advisory group.

Who appoints you there?

The current commission made that appointment.

Which is incredible.

Did you ever think in your life?

If you told me that, if you said, hey, I know this guy, Adam Clausen, that's on the

Sentencing Commission, I go like, oh, the guy Adam I was in prison with, no, call him

again because it's impossible.

He couldn't be on the Sentencing Commission.

So if you told me that, like, it's an amazing, amazing feat.

We've made amazing leaps and bounds because we need this side of the conversation, right?

So it's just a tremendous thing.

We are making so many strides.

We just need to really connect this.

So what is our board comprised of and what do you do?

So it's individuals who either have experienced Ben and Karcerade themselves or had a family

member.

There's nine of us in this inaugural panel that the commission said, you know what, there's

a voice that's missing from this conversation.

We need to hear from people who are actually subjected to, you know, the decisions that

we make here.

And I had the opportunity yesterday to testify on two different panels regarding how these

things personally impacted, not just me, but all of the people around me, their family

members, you know, and what I witnessed over the course of 20 years, and they were wrapped

attention.

Like, wow, okay, we hadn't seen it from that person.

Well, when you lay out the residual value of it's like, you know, you hate to, you hate

to use this analogy, but it's like like parametting, you know, you, you teach someone falls

down.

They teach someone.

It just keeps going through.

I mean, why wouldn't we be embracing this and promoting this and how can we promote

and embrace this?

Well, that's a great question.

Continuing to promote with Kevin specifically.

Yeah.

Like, man, it's hard because we have, listen, talk to so many different people, got the

word out there.

And I think the biggest thing that needs to shift, and if Johnny and I can have any greater

influence, it's to say, look at what happens when you give people a second chance, and

not just regular, like people who've been written off, right?

And Kev's one of those people who, you know, was written off a long time ago and has given

back so much, like I don't think anyone, if you look at the record on what he's done

and the people who support him, I don't, I don't see how anyone could say, ah, I don't

think so.

That's not a good choice.

Well, conversely, too, there's got to be another, there's got to be another aspect to this

where, you know, victims families, right?

You know, someone does, you know, it gets a life sentence, and what is the outreach to

promote support from victims families if there is any support at that?

I mean, that's got to be, that's got to be a considerable feat because, you know, victimless

crimes one thing, right?

But when there's victims involved, that's where you're going to get the pushback on some

of the stuff.

Sure.

That's a great question.

One of yesterday, out of the groups that there are, that are able to give feedback or

are invited to give feedback, one of them is a victim's rights group.

And the challenge there is, right?

This group, as so many victims, come in hard and, you know, there's a cry for retribution,

but if that is the only focus, right?

And there's no real path to redemption, like that kind of over time, like, that loses

its power, right?

Like even as victims rights, I wholeheartedly understand that.

But I also believe like our system is set up to be about punishment, like, okay, here's

the punishment.

But if there's not a path to redemption, like it's, is that system ever going to be really

seen as equitable?

Aren't people really going to have faith in the system?

Well, you know, like in Massachusetts, you know, people that commit, got life sentences

before the 20th birthday, the law changed.

And when you're seeing more and more people being eligible for parole, you know, that's

where you're seeing a lot of the, the, the victims families like showing up very hard

and passionate, which, you know, you can understand to a certain extent.

100%.

But, you know, there's also an opportunity if you were 18 years old and you made a bad

decision and you did something that's, you know, unconscious, but yes, 70 years old,

like 65 years old, you know, I mean, let's face it, you're probably not going to be a

violent offender or do something wrong.

You know, you always have that argument as well as like, all right, where was he or

where was she, where have they been and where are they going?

I want to make one distinction here.

This is where Kevin is different, right?

And we started with this earlier talking about there was a woman whose life that he saved.

And if you read the reports, it's likely she, she would have died.

He saved this woman's life and not just against the prison politics, like he did this

because he believed it was the right thing to do at the precise moment and he did it.

For the right reasons for all of those things, like you have to acknowledge that.

And you know, victims are going to have their say and their push.

And I would say that we always have to look at like, how are you balancing these scales?

That's how I always looked at it in my case.

And I was realistic.

I was like, have I served enough time and have I done enough to give back for all that

I've taken?

And I finally get to a point where I'm like, I feel like I've, I've kind of got there.

Somebody's got to give me a chance.

Kevin is so far past that it started with him safe in the woman's life.

But then decades, not a couple of years, decades of service, of contribution, of continuing

to give back, despite like living under immense pressure, resistive challenges.

Well, think about him taking both of you under his wing.

Probably saved you.

Oh, man.

100%.

I wouldn't be in the position.

I wouldn't have had the mindset to move forward.

I would have never discovered the things that I'd discovered about myself.

And that I could learn that I, I turned to a life of crime.

I wanted to make easy money because I was afraid of math.

I tell Kevin that all the time.

When I seen him and I seen Adam, don't forget Adam, when I'm there, Adam's done his transformation.

He's making curriculums.

I see this other guy that more of an animal in the gym than me, like, you know, and I look

up to him just by that alone.

You see this guy, you know, so without these two guys and without Kevin, that's why I

talk about the tree, you know, we did another podcast and we had a prison warden on there

that advocated for Kevin.

You know, so if I don't see these people, I don't even know if I'm in this position.

So I was assuming we're going to tirelessly work to free Kevin in 2026.

That's a main goal.

Is there any time frame where where he just got the night he has to wait or is there

no?

Nope.

Nope.

This guy is on it.

He's already, you know, made a, you know, a page of got a one-sheeter.

We got something very simple, literally one page.

You want to get the point across.

You look at that one page and you go, wow, this guy is amazing.

If you don't know who he is, you're going to look at it and you're going to want to know

who he is.

Can we see that one page or any of social media platforms?

I can, I will do that.

I mean, it'll be great for the audience to be able to take a look at that.

I'm going to put that right up on my Instagram.

What is your Instagram?

Adam 213 is free.

Adam 213 is free.

So Johnny, what's your social media platform?

Official underscore.

Johnny underscore.

Bartolomeo.

And we'll all collab on that too.

That'd be great.

So, you know, we'll get it right out there.

I mean, a couple other things.

Let's ask about Row and, in your boy, like, where are they right now?

Well, unfortunately, they're back home in Vegas, but I am looking forward to getting

back to them.

And he's four and a half years old.

Four and a half years old.

You got him in sports?

What do you got him doing?

Not yet.

Like, we're getting ready.

Age five, everything, like, really opens up where you can get into sports and different

things.

I want to, you know, get him active gymnastics, jujitsu, get him rolling early.

Absolutely.

Yeah, rolling early.

Literally.

And figure it around.

Rollin' around.

This is your social media platforms again.

You are.

Adam 213 is free.

We also have gridability.

Gridability is a podcast that you and your wife created.

It is.

And we've been out of the studio for a minute, but we're getting ready to get back in

there.

Great.

Because the book is going to launch.

What book is that?

In the next couple months.

Listen, we got a plug.

Let's go.

Let's go.

213 overcoming the impossible.

Right.

Right.

And that's the book is done.

And we're already in conversations about a limited run series.

I think it's a pretty great series.

Is it a Netflix series?

Yeah.

And hopefully.

Got to watch out.

There's going to be a merger.

All this bullshit going on.

I know.

I've been listening to that.

I mean, listen, I'm not married to any one series.

I like it.

I like it.

And John, what is in your future, my friend?

So I mean, we had David Wedge on this show, right?

Right.

David Wedge.

So he's got my book.

And he's going to his publicist with it.

And we're trying to figure that out.

For me, it's just I'm advocating for the people in recovery.

So that's my main focus right now.

I also have a clothing company, 27th straight.

I've been moving right along with that.

And that's been going pretty good.

I mean, it sustained me for my first year out of prison.

The one good thing when John came out.

I met with him on a couple of our friends.

We were just talking about on the car ride over here.

I'm like, all right.

What do you want to go?

You want to go to the labors?

You want to go?

What do you want to do this one?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

I'm good.

I'm good.

He was clear.

He was clear.

I'm 57.

I'm ready to retire.

So I'm just what we're really trying to do now is, you know, we lived in a postage stamp

for so long, me and Adam.

And what I learned through that was not looking at people like, yo, what are you looking

at?

Now it's about building relations.

It's the complete opposite of that.

And you know, my famous line is crumbs made crumb cake.

So a little bit here, a little bit there and networking and, you know, trying to help

people we can, right?

And at the same time, trying to derive a little capital as well.

So it's the best of both worlds.

You got to, you need a little scratch to eat, you know, you need a little scratch.

I don't know.

I just go down a strainer and eat for nothing.

Oh, it's good.

You're America's guest, sir.

I've never seen anybody get more free meals than this guy.

Listen, I'm going to ask you a question that I ask all my guests, but I'm probably going

to ask you it.

And I'm going to answer it if that's okay, knowing you for the show a period of time.

I feel like I know in your long time.

But if you could have lunch with anybody, who would it be?

That's not deceased.

I'm going to answer it, be Kevin McToggett, right?

Yeah.

That would be the best lunch.

Are we going to a better bad idea?

Let's make that happen.

Let's make that happen.

All right.

Great.

Thank you very much for being on better bad ideas and you both will welcome many times.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you.

Awesome.

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