Here to STAY?! Are Nico Hoerner & Matt Shaw Trade Rumors Dead? I CHGO Cubs Podcast

What do you say it's the CHO Cup's podcast on a Monday.

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Joey Kostopoulos, Justin Roman, Luke Suckmire, and Sarah

on the ones and twos.

Go Cups.

Yes.

Love that.

Ladies and gentlemen, pictures and catchers report

on Wednesday.

The first spring training game is in 13 days, opening days

in 45 days, Luke, it feels good.

This is our time.

It is time to lock in on baseball season.

I just want everybody to know that I will be showing up

to spring training in the best shape of my life.

Oh, yeah.

That's what every player says.

That's what they all say.

He's here.

Have you seen him?

He's in the best shape of his life.

He's never been this good.

I'm through a total of two.

I'm reporting the spring training, adding 15 pounds of something.

It could be muscle.

I'm not sure.

That's right.

Possibly.

You're really.

That's right.

I'm going to be more like the overweight first baseman that

kind of limps in the spring training and says, I'm here.

Pete and Convilia.

Matt Stairs.

Matt Stairs.

That's right.

Hey, first of all, I am excited about what's happening.

We had obviously the Super Bowl last night.

We can talk briefly about that because it

was an absolute snooze fest.

But it always signals to me.

Football is done.

Turn your attention.

Skip right over the bowls.

And the black ox.

Let's move on to baseball season.

You're right.

Two days till pictures and catchers afterport.

But almost everybody's there.

And we will be two because our big news

that we're coming into the show with, which we've had

a couple of days, just so people that are new to the show.

March 5th through 8, you can come with us.

CHGO road trip to spring training in Arizona.

You can go to Cup.

We've got a kind of Ola Kart deal.

If you go to our website, presented by our friends at Shady

Rays, they set the whole thing up for us.

We are going to fly out to Arizona.

We're going to stay in a hotel.

We're going to Sloan Park to see some Cubs games.

We're going to have a golf outing.

And that'll be with all the all city teams out there.

So we might have some Rockies people in the golf tournament.

But it's going to be CHGO Cubs, the diehards,

whoever signs up and go.

There might be some socks fans going.

It's going to be an all city golf tournament

that you can go to.

Plus, the bulls happen to play the sons out there.

And even though you won't recognize

a single name other than modest on the bulls,

you can go to that game with us because, you know what?

The NBA's playing.

Why not go?

You never know what you're going to see.

So get signed up.

It's going to be awesome.

Get excited about this, right?

I'm so excited.

I am ready for that trip after the Super Bowl.

Yeah, I mean, also, what a juxtaposition

of the Super Bowl being a snooze fest.

I agree.

I remember how good the World Series was.

I mean, the World Series was awesome.

Maybe one of the best ones, you know, seven games.

And I mean, it was down to the wide, an inch away

from the Toronto Blue.

I mean, that was such a good World Series.

It's a snooze fest of a Super Bowl.

And yeah, I'm with you.

Baseball is here.

And that's nothing better about like starting a new season

in spring training.

I love Arizona.

There's never a bad day.

And the fact that like, you know, this trio here,

we get to kind of cover three Cubs games down there.

There is a socks game.

There's a bulls game.

There's a big ol' golf outing.

Tons of like bars and restaurants

and meet and greets we have.

I'm looking forward to like a nice boys trip.

You know, it was really, really fun.

For us to kind of bond and everything.

And I mean, obviously girls are allowed.

But like, you know, I'm saying like us three

being dudes kind of getting out there

and getting after an Arizona.

Yeah, that's what they say, Luke.

A nice, a nice long road trip early in the season

brings the team together.

And Luke, Justin, you're brought up a great point

where like, yeah, as we wipe away the fog

a little bit of the football season,

which I still, by the way, have my ice man hooding on

for the first time ever.

Is that better than Drake made by the way?

Yeah, you know what I said yesterday, 45 times?

Yeah, Caleb would have made that throw.

Anyways, I digress.

But no, like you're bringing up a really great point

that last year's baseball season

was incredibly entertaining.

Filled with superstars, guys rising,

like Pico Armstrong, Cal Raleigh breaking records.

Of course, the headliner show Hey Otani

with a fantastic world series.

I know we've been a long winner

and I know that we talk a lot about

the looming maybe labor stoppage.

But this baseball season is going to be so fun

and so entertaining.

And what better than having a really good cup

seem to go with it?

And that starts the spring training March 5th and March 8th.

So join us.

Yeah, football season was exciting

until we got to the Super Bowl.

And then it wasn't exciting.

And one thing I'm looking forward to

at the spring training trip, I wasn't going to announce this,

but there will be a rattlesnake competition.

Who can catch a rattlesnake with their bare hands first?

And so I'll be excited to see which one of you guys is able,

I'm not participating in it.

But you guys, we're going to put you in a ring

with a bunch of rattlesnakes.

Who can grab a rattlesnake by the neck first?

I gotta tell you, we went for our honey,

not honeymoon, our baby moon.

We went to Arizona, me and my wife, right?

My dear Arizona, she's like eight months pregnant.

And we did five hikes, I give her credit, five hikes, right?

But some of those hikes, like their signs

that are like, beware of rattlesnakes.

And I wasn't ready for that.

I'm like, wait a second, wait, wait, what?

Like there's like rattlesnakes

and then they're giving you advice about like,

don't look it in the eye.

And I'm like, oh my god, it became very, very real.

So I will not be participating in the rattlesnake contest.

I'm out, I'm out.

It's my greatest fear in life.

Yeah, rattlesnakes.

Yeah, snakes.

I think they should all be destroyed.

I don't understand their purpose.

They have no purpose on the planet.

They don't have legs, so I don't like it.

They're hard to disable.

The only snake we love is Jake the snake, Jake Ariata.

That's a cool snake, but that's good.

They're all gone.

Bad name.

Don't like it.

I'm terrified of them, I hate it.

Hey, what I did like was this trade, by the way.

The brewers, that's surprising to me.

The guy that finishes, we talk about, as Cubs fans,

people are worried whether or not they'll trade Matt Shaw,

which is also linked to this story.

But like, the guy that finished third in the rookie

of the year voting in the National League,

right behind Cade Horton, was just traded by the brewers.

They got Durbin in that Devon Williams deal, right?

And so he was there one year, finished third

in rookie of the year voting and poof, he's gone.

And the one thing that scares me about it is, listen,

I don't know who's really the third baseman for the brewers.

What scares me is they got to pitch your back

in this Harrison kid that was once the best left-handed

pitching prospect in baseball.

And they always find a way to make it work.

And they were willing to do this deal.

And so they sold high on this kid they got

and had a good season for him.

But now if they can add to the Miz and Woodruff and Priester,

this kid's going to be in the mix for their starting rotation.

We could talk about what it means for the Cubs,

but it'll be interesting to see what it means for the brewers

who seem to be stocking up on young players again

while also trying to compete, which is what they do.

Yeah, my other interpretation of it was,

they have some confidence and belief in Jet Williams.

From the Met's trade.

And we're not even mentioning what's Sprout or Sprout

or whatever, the other pitching prospect that they have.

Look, this is what they do.

I rarely have empathy from Milwaukee Brewers fans,

but you can't help but sometimes think like,

are they numb to this now?

That like the guys that they get excited about,

maybe the guy they think about, maybe buy in the Jersey four,

as you said, finishing third in NL rookie of the year.

See, moving on, doing something else.

But yeah, I mean, Jet Williams or this pitcher,

I think it's interesting, Justin,

that the return for that player, clearly,

I think, though, is at least a step below

what we were discussing if it were to be a match shot,

if it were to be an equal one.

So clearly Boston didn't feel like they wanted

to meet that asking price.

Cubs stayed pretty firm.

They didn't move off of it.

And this is the move that the Red Sox ended up making.

And from a Cubs standpoint, I'm thrilled

that they didn't meet our demands

because we had said, last time I was on a show with you guys,

that they had to blow us away.

And okay, maybe Jet wasn't blown away.

And so I said, no, and I think the Cubs

are a better team with keeping match-up.

I've been very vocal about that.

I think we don't even know what his ceiling is.

And I think that, you know, we are a better team,

this year and in the future,

for keeping both Nico and match-up.

But I mean, Brewers, listen man, they lost their,

yes, Luke you're right.

They got, you know, another guy that might be great.

But like, at the end of the day,

like they lost their ace, ready for Alta.

And, you know, the Miz, I don't know what to think

about the Miz because like, we saw him be great.

We saw him be horrible.

So he has a proven to me that he,

I have way more confidence in Kate Horton

than I do in the Miz.

I'll tell you that right now.

So, you know, I mean, okay, we'll see what happens.

I, for me, it looks like they're kind of retooling

on the fly.

And whereas the Cubs are all in,

we're going to take the division and never let it go

is what I'm seeing with these two teams.

I looked at the trade and I thought,

while they're trading this young third baseman,

and who finished third in the nationally rookie

of the year voting.

And then I thought, if Shaw had put together

a whole season of the second half,

obviously he would have been in that mix, right?

Like he actually would have been in the conversation

for nationally rookie of the year with Kate Horton.

Now, if he put together a first half

and doubled it with the second half,

he would not be in the mix.

The Cubs weren't willing to do the deal.

The Brewers were, who will be the better prospect

moving forward?

Will it be Durbin or is it going to be Matt Shaw?

I don't know, but I agree with Corey Seacrest

in the chat who says,

the Brewers always seem to know something before we do.

And so it does scare me a little bit

that they sold high on this kid.

And that's sort of for the people that want to trade Matt Shaw,

a lot of them are wondering, should we trade high?

Even Niko too, the same way, people that are saying,

well, you're not going to sign Niko maybe

and his value is as good as it's going to get.

And maybe Shaw too, because nothing's been proven

one way or another, the Brewers aren't afraid to do that.

The Brewers aren't afraid to do it.

And sometimes I think the Cubs are slow to do that.

The part that I think that there's two ways to look at this

is the first one is, when we talk about the Brewers

versus the Cubs, I think from a Brewers perspective,

I think that they have a conviction and confidence

to move off of a player like Caleb Durbin,

because they believe that they can replicate that result.

They think they can bring in jet Williams

and it's not going to skip a beat, right?

They think that they can find the next five, seven,

dirt, bag, baseball player.

I really think that they do, right?

Where I think that the Cubs, on the other hand,

don't really put themselves in that position.

And I think we've been a little critical of this offseason

of re, it isn't, you know, it's one thing to have

the four or five names that we talk about all the time

at the top of the farm system,

but the middle of the farm system

probably could use a little bit more of some depth

and more development, where the Brewers have the confidence

to say, we can get rid of this guy now and we'll be fine.

Where the Cubs are like, well, if we get rid of this guy

right now, like a match shot, can we find another one

in our system and replace him?

I think that the confidence levels are different.

In terms of the two players is very quickly.

I'm taking match shot.

I really am.

I think both players have a similar profile

if I think they both came on in the second half of the year.

But there is something about, and Luke, it wasn't,

it wasn't just anything where,

heading into last year, a lot of people thought

match shot was going to compete for rookie of the year.

And I think in the second half, he began to flash

with that potential compossibly, looks like.

But when you combine the defense

and what I think is so untapped potential

that flash in the second half,

I give match shot a little bit of the edge right now,

even though Caleb Durbin turned himself

into a pretty good player last year,

and hopefully he works out for the Red Sox.

I think that match shot is being underappreciated

because he's still young.

I mean, PCA two years ago was in PCA,

we saw in the first half of last year, right?

I mean, don't forget, there's a whole trajectory

of this kind of thing, right?

So I'm looking forward to big things from match shot.

And honestly, with a safer landing spot,

with the way he's going to be utilized now,

with we talked about maybe him getting 400 of bats

by spelling some guys, when the DH comes around,

like all these different things

that him plugging into the lineup,

not having to be the guy might benefit him in the long run.

And then one more thing about the Milwaukee Chicago mindset,

Milwaukee has to do these kind of things to compete.

The Cubs have financial flexibility and strength

to be like, I want Alex Pregman, I'm getting Alex Pregman, right?

The Milwaukee doesn't have that,

so they kind of have to do the Freddie Peralta.

They can't afford for Peralta to walk for nothing.

They can't do that kind of stuff.

So the mindset of Milwaukee is different

than the mindset of Jed Hoyer

and the front office in Chicago.

All right, so as we had to break,

the question is for the chat

and everybody on this panel, the three of us,

what does it mean for the Cubs, the Brewer's trade?

Are they connected and does it mean

that Shaw and Nico are here to stay?

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Coming back on the CIT Show Cubs podcast

here, Joe Krasopoulos, Justin Roman, Sarah on the ones and twos

and Luke Stuckmeyer on the other side of the break.

We're talking a little match on now that Caleb Durbin

is the infielder of choice, perhaps for the Boston Red Sauce.

I think by default.

Yeah, well, no choice.

No, I think it's the parting gift, if you will,

for what they try to do this off season.

Now that match, I might be off the books.

Luke, I got to ask you, it's day 27 of the Nico,

do not trade Nico Horner campaign.

Can we declare victory?

I think we declare victory up to the trade deadline for now.

I think they're both here at least up to the trade deadline.

Whatever happens after that, like if Matt Shaw has some spectacular

first half of the season, maybe the Cubs think,

well, we can move on from Nico and still fill that void

or we just don't know where the teams are gonna be

and where the Cubs are gonna be or who's healthy

but for now, I think they're definitely both in the fold.

They're both gonna be here on opening day,

which is I know what Justin wanted

and I do wonder, I do wonder for the brewers, like,

hey, where was, where was their packing order

for what they wanted?

The reason I think that Shaw and Nico are definitely

better than Durbin is, I think that was a late,

late choice for the Red Sauce.

The names that we heard the Cubs sort of asking for

in a trade with the Red Sox seemed much more impressive

than the return, if that was the return

the Cubs got for Matt Shaw or Nico, I would have been mad.

I'm not saying they're not getting anything

because I like the pitching prospect, but it wasn't early.

It wasn't their top pitching prospect

and so I look at it and say, man, they really wanted Braggman,

then they probably wanted Nico, then they probably wanted Shaw,

then they probably wanted a Suarez, and they got Durbin.

Okay, so that's what the Red Sox got.

I look at this and say the Cubs are sitting

in a real pretty spot.

I really like having the depth going into the season.

I know that's not how we saw it unfolding

until they got Braggman and we weren't sure

it was gonna go that way, but now that they have it,

I think it could be one of the really good strengths

of the team if it plays out the right way.

I think you've raised the floor on the team

by keeping Matt Shaw in the super utility role, right?

We thought he was our third baseman and we were gonna be good,

but then we got Braggman, we're better.

And our floor has been raised now for keeping Shaw, I believe.

And you know, for this year, I think we're a stronger team

with Matt Shaw, but don't forget Nico, Sayah, and Hap

are all free agents at the end of the year.

Matt Shaw can easily play any of those three positions.

So whether you extend Nico and maybe let Hap, whatever it is,

Matt Shaw is cost controlled for, I don't even know,

five, six years.

So he is a valuable piece to this team

if he can reach his potential

and he hasn't had a full, you know, listen, again,

I just had it before I'll say it again.

PCA two years ago was in PCA first half of last year.

It takes time for these guys to click.

Nobody comes in, it becomes a superstar,

they're first at bat, you know.

So I'm very, very happy, I think that looking back,

hindsight 2020, I think looking back at the end of this year

coming up, we're gonna be very happy we kept Matt Shaw.

And look, you're right, you know, maybe something happens

where you can move one of those guys at a deadline

to get a scoobler or whatever it is.

That's all crazy, but for right now going into the next season,

we are much better off having Matt Shaw and Nico Hunter

than one of the other.

And what I like about it is the thing with the Brewers is right,

like they're the voodoo Brewers,

they're gonna figure it out every year.

They change up the mixture and the mixture always comes out

magically that they're leading the division

or they win the division.

But they continuously have to do it over and over again.

You're pulling from a player that helped them have success

to go to the NLCS last year.

Nothing is guaranteed.

They're banking on a guy like Andrew Vaughn,

repeating, you know, whatever his reclamation season

is rejuvenated season last year,

they're asking him to replicate that for a full 162.

And just when you look through the cross the NL Central,

just what I like about all this stuff,

is that if you go from team to team,

Brewers did not add anybody of significance

that has a proven track record.

They subtracted Freddie Peralta from their team.

The Cincinnati Reds did not add anyone of significance

other AU Hennios Suarez.

The pirates, they made some moves.

Yeah, Marcelo Zuna over the weekend is gonna help them.

Brandon Lowe is going to help them.

There's still the pirates.

There's still the pirates.

And the Cardinals sent everybody packing.

So whatever it is, the two major moves from the Cubs,

this offseason, trump any other move

that happened in the NL Central.

And we are still the team that won 92 games.

And to our point when we talk about guys like Matt Shaw,

hopefully following the path of Peter Armstrong,

we're hoping that some of these younger players get better.

And we're also hoping that some of these veterans

in a walk here maybe have their best year yet.

So just when you look across the canvas of the division,

it still is advantage Cubs in a lot of different areas, Luke.

Yeah, did you say day 27 of the Don't Trade Nico campaign?

Yes, day 27.

So I was just about to say, let's just cancel the campaign

because we don't need to do it anymore.

We've won the election.

We did it.

We won.

We did it.

But what just as I was about to pay back the pirates,

there is one other way.

And it's not a, it's not a,

but there is one other way that it could still happen,

probably not before spring training.

But if a team that thinks they're going to compete

for the World Series, win the World Series,

loses their third baseman, or second baseman,

or shortstop, shortstop or second baseman.

If they lose one of those two guys

to an injury at spring training that sees an ending, right?

Like ACL, something horrible.

Well, then the Cubs will start getting those calls again.

I think the calls would die down right now.

I think most teams are like, we're good.

This is the team we have.

And I think the Cubs are like, we're good.

What if something happens in spring training?

That's the way sometimes that can come back.

But I think we can stop the campaign.

I think, I think the Air Horn was valid

that we will see them when we get

to our spring training trip, March 5th.

No, I saw someone in the chat.

I can't say credit for those points.

Somebody in the chat, I like that,

said, can it be day one of our Extenico campaign?

Can we flip the campaign?

And like, no, okay, we got them.

We're not going to be extended guy for five years.

I endorsed that message.

Is he easier to trade?

So here's the thing.

You know what I'm saying?

Extending Nico right now, unless you give him a no trade clause,

doesn't that give him the most value anyway?

Like if you could get a reasonable deal,

and that's what you want.

You want him to stay here on a reasonable deal.

But it also would be something another team

might give you more for if you were forced to make that move

or had that luxury instead of a guy on an expiring deal.

If you're trading a guy that's got great value,

maybe that's smart too.

So I would say, I would say actually Extending Nico

makes a ton of sense right now,

even though it is possible he's not on the team next year.

My, the only thing about,

and you're right too.

I mean, we're about to enter into spring training.

A lot of stuff happens.

People go up, people go down, people get sideline,

all that stuff.

The only thing that I would say to that is,

we're getting so deep into it.

And it is now day 27.

And maybe it's day one of the Extending Nico campaign.

Yes.

The only thing that I would say to that is,

if there were a player to go down

and they started calling the Cubs,

that team better be a damn American league team.

I don't want to hear anything about value

in the middle of spring training.

This team is primed and ready to roll.

I don't want to hear, they got,

wow, we're really excited about the return

for Nico Horner because they traded him to like the Metz.

You know what I'm like,

that's the only part is like, you're, you're,

and I'm with you.

I think like once you get into it, sure,

but like once you get in the middle of spring training,

it's kind of like past the point of no return, right?

He's either, he's either in or he's out.

So unless it's like the Mariners or something like that,

like I frankly, I don't really,

I'm not trying to hear that, you know.

And also too, if that, if Luke, your hypothetical situation

happens, you know, everybody's going to know

the Cubs have all the leverage, you know.

If the team like the Mariners is desperate

because their second basement blew out as knee,

I mean, we literally get set the bar up here, you know,

and like do a fantasy baseball trade.

If you take it, if you don't, we're good.

So I don't think, I think both,

I truly believe Nico and Shaw are going to be on this team

for opening day, and I'm really, really,

I think the Cubs are a better team for it.

Yeah, and I just like that the other team in town

subtracted their third basement and we added third basement.

If you're just comparing positions,

which we'll do later in the show with Catcher,

like the Cubs have increased their value at third base,

which was a question mark for sure going into last season.

And if you want to go back just the beginning of last year

or two years ago or go back to Christopher Morrell,

we now have a significant proven commodity at third base.

And the backup play there is better than anything

most likely the Cubs have had since probably Chris Bryant, right?

It's Shaw, when you look at Shaw,

whether you love his game or believe fully in it,

is he a better play right now than Miles Masterbony

as your utility guy?

Yes, is he better than Nick Madrigal as your utility guy?

Yes.

So not only have they increased finally at third base,

the guarantee basically what you have at third,

they've also increased the backup plan at third base.

And that versatility.

So I love it and I don't know what they're going to do

with it at the trade deadline.

I don't know what they'll do with it in the off season,

but right now for this year,

it's a real good thing for the Cubs.

Yeah, great news for the Cubs.

And I'm just excited to see them roll that out.

I mean, you're right.

There's, you know, we can save ourselves a lot of time,

a lot of breath and a lot of energy railing

on the John Birdies of the world.

And why is he getting the start and what's going on?

And he, and where do we, oh, we got Willy Castro.

What does this all mean?

I mean, you can kind of sort of set it and forget it

a little bit with the Cubs health provided.

And when maybe when you do get to the deadline,

maybe you're a little bit more big fish hunting, you know what I mean?

Maybe you're a big name hunting out there

to really that, that cherry, that whatever is the role

of the Chapman that puts you over the top.

If the Cubs are in position, these, they're not fringe moves

that the Cubs will be looking at.

They then would be looking at what's the thing

that's really going to strike fear

into the rest of the National League.

And that's probably what we're thinking.

And guys, for a while, we thought Matt Shaw

was going to be our starting third baseman in 2026.

And we were actually okay with it, right?

I mean, like I said earlier, the floor has been raised.

Now we have Alex Frickin-Bregman as our starting third baseman,

probably for the next five years,

with a no trade clause.

And that means Matt Shaw this year is our super utility.

The whole, you know, the whole boat rose up, you know what I'm saying?

And like, it just, it makes us better.

And I have an eye for the future as well,

where it's like, you know, we got three spots,

potentially next year that are going to be for agents.

And Matt Shaw can play any of those three spots.

So it's good for now, it's good for tomorrow.

And maybe for Carter Hawkins, for Carter Hawkins,

it's good for 2032, hopefully.

But regardless, it's a very good day.

I'm very happy to at least think that the cubs

are keeping both.

And yeah, I'm excited.

And Luke, really quick, according to the batting practices

on the internet, Nico's going to have 40 bombs.

Are you ready?

Nico, I just didn't text at this wall.

This is Nico's revenge season.

Here come the bombs.

Yeah, the one post was like, I've never seen a batting practice

from Nico Horner like this.

It's amazing.

Look at the power, that shape of his life.

He's never looked so good.

I think he heard our podcast,

because we always talk about, he's perfect,

except for no power.

He's perfect, except for no power.

Well, Nico found some power.

And guys, I'm ready to see it.

First hand, our marks fifth in Arizona.

Past, hey, go back rewind just one year.

At least he's not wearing an arm brace, too.

So we got, we're better off than where we were a year ago

at this time, and then we got a great season.

All right, coming up after the break,

we're going to start digging into position by position.

Where do the cubs rank in the division?

We are attacking catcher.

That's one of the trickiest positions for the cubs.

Where will the cubs rank in the central next year?

Let us know what you think in the live chat,

but first a word from our sponsors here at CHGO Cubs.

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together, let's drive.

So I milking a cow or driving a car.

Yeah, if you're watching that,

I know you were driving a cow fucker.

Yeah, I was doing the cow tucker, right?

All right.

Anyways, back here on the CIT show comes podcasts.

Dr. Stoppill is just a Roman Luke stuck by Sarah

on the ones and twos and you in the chat.

Make sure you like this video and join us all week

as we count down the days,

pictures and catches reporting just a couple of days.

Man, open days 45 away first game in 13 days.

We get to go nuts on some rando and like 13 days, Luke,

you're kidding me right now.

Quiz pop quiz 45 days away from opening day.

Give me a number 45 on the Cubs.

Any any shock McElroy Sean Marshall.

Was he 45 like that?

So Marseille was my guess. Yeah.

Yeah.

It's up McElroy.

Nice poll.

Awesome.

I have a though.

No, was he 37?

40.

Thank you.

White box.

Oh, no.

Good to have you back.

Nice.

Nice guys.

Good polls.

Good polls.

I know.

All right.

It is time for our taking the temp.

And I do look forward to our taking the temp segment

when we can say it's 83 here in Arizona.

But today's taking the temp.

Where do the Cubs catchers stack up in the division?

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So where do the Cubs stack up in the central

with their combo catcher situation?

And I went through the zips this morning.

I was looking at it.

This little 30 seconds, for 30 seconds,

we will give the nod to the brewer saying,

I think pretty easily they have the best.

But we're going to start at the bottom.

We're going to go five to one, OK?

We're going to start at the bottom.

And there's only one, when you're talking about the bottom

of the NL central, there's only one place

you can go.

And you don't even need a name, because we

know that the quote unquote best fans in baseball

are going to get one of the worst teams in baseball in 2026.

And so we are ranking the fifth spot in the division

for catcher, the Cardinals, because they

are an irrelevant team.

It does not matter who their catcher is.

They've traded everybody away.

They were irrelevant last year.

They are irrelevant this year.

Now I actually paid Ropahas as not a bad catcher.

We might have ranked somewhere in the middle,

but because the team is irrelevant,

it just doesn't even matter who's their catcher.

Frankly, Joey could be their catcher, right?

It doesn't matter.

Anybody from our CHGO softball team could be on that list.

And by the way, Justin, back-to-back champions,

I don't know if you're going to want to get involved

with that this season.

Back-to-back-to-back, three back-to-back to back-to-back.

And Jan.

Only if you guys could have a left handed first baseman

that's a goal-glover up to you guys, whatever, but let me know.

Oh, wow.

I heard you earned my retire.

You said that the Cardinals are irrelevant team.

I say irrelevant city as well.

St. Louis is boring and he wants to ever go there.

And I agree.

Why are we even?

We've wasted too much time talking about number five right now.

Let's move on, because it is just irrelevant.

Yeah, and St. Louis, give me St. Nick.

Santa Claus himself.

What kind of a name is that town?

Where do we put number four?

Well, it's got to be the pirates, right?

Like there's nothing Henry Davis.

I didn't even have to look up the stats.

I know Henry Davis is just a guy.

He's just a guy.

Was a good prospect?

Is he still a good prospect?

Henry Davis.

I mean, you're going from a relevant to...

Well, he's not Mr. or relevant, but he's one step above him.

Whoever the Cardinals are going with Pahez.

But has decent pedigrees, so like possible,

we haven't seen what he's capable of yet.

So, you know, number four is very much where he should be.

Yeah, and the miners obviously had an OPS over 900.

Definitely a defensive first catcher,

the classic version of that.

If you went to, if you try to do stack cast fielding run value,

he's right in the middle of the pack of the NL Central.

The DRS fielding Bible, though, defensive run saves

has him second in the NL Central with eight defensive run saves

last year.

So if you are the pirates, right?

Like, you just want to do to handle the staff.

A staff that you feel really positive about

that you think is your future.

So, Henry Davis is not scaring you with the stick.

Let's put it that way.

So, I mean, five and four were pretty easy, right?

How do you...

I mean, three, I think, is pretty clearly Tyler Stevenson,

but how do you feel about Tyler Stevenson and the Reds?

I've always thought he was going to be a better player

than they went back and looked at the F-word,

and you're like 1.1,

and they're pretty much expecting the same season

zips from him next year.

He had some home runs.

He's a nice enough catcher,

but if I compare him to say Miguel Amaya,

like if Miguel Amaya actually was healthy this year

and played more games,

I think Miguel Amaya's F-word would be higher than

even the 1.1 with Stevenson.

I keep thinking he's going to do better.

So, what do you think of Stevenson?

I think pretty clearly that Carson Kelly, Miguel Amaya,

together are number two,

but I think even Amaya alone or Kelly alone

is better than Tyler Stevenson.

Yeah, the thing with Tyler Stevenson is he is the exact opposite

of Henry Davis.

He is an offensive first catcher, right?

They have to play Jose Trevino a lot

because of, frankly, Tyler Stevenson is absolutely horrible,

defensively.

Fielding run value minus eight for Stevenson,

framing minus eight last year,

defensive runs saved by Fielding Bible minus four.

He is a sub-par defensive catcher.

He is a guy who's driven in 50 runs over the last three seasons,

something Carson Kelly did last year

for the first time in his career.

He's going to pop 12, 13 home runs,

but that's pretty much it, right?

Like so, when we talk again about,

are there Cincinnati Reds dangerous?

Like yes, they have a lot of potential in the rotation.

They have a couple of pieces offensively

if they bounce back could be pretty solid and decent,

but like what makes the Cubs cool and interesting

are those details of defense consistency,

the things that the Cincinnati Reds lack.

So Stevenson I think is third,

but yeah, defensively he is,

he's perhaps the worst catcher in the annual central.

I'd say that.

I'm really excited about this Cubs duo,

catching duo, if you will.

I think, don't forget, we signed Carson Kelly

to be Miguel Amaya's backup, right?

It just didn't work out that way.

And Carson Kelly had a great year and all these different things,

but I still really, really, really want to see

a full year or a majority season of Miguel Amaya healthy.

You know, one of our former top prospects,

and you saw when he was healthy, why he was that,

it seemed like he kind of finally put it together,

you know, and then as a tandem was really, really good,

but I still, I mean listen, Carson Kelly,

I think is, is who he is, and he's great for us.

I think he fits perfectly.

I don't think we know yet what Miguel Amaya is,

and I'm really hoping to find out this season,

and I hope it really, we turns back

to what Miguel Amaya is your starter,

and Carson Kelly is your backup.

No matter how it shakes out, I agree.

That tandem is number two in this division.

Yeah, Luke, Amaya last year, excuse me,

Amaya in 2024 in the second half,

when we were like, oh, this could be a guy that,

he's healthy, finally going to help us.

Flash 271 with a 316 on base, 444,

for a catching position.

That's pretty damn good, especially with that slug.

And when we're talking about Miguel Amaya,

the reason why we're rooting for him is A,

he's a guy that's easy to root for.

But Luke, he really is a guy that could be another

small little X factor because again, with Carson Kelly,

first 199 at bats and 899 OPS with 24 extra base hits.

His final 170 at bats, a 596 OPS,

way subpar league average with only seven extra base hits

over his final 170.

We like Carson Kelly, right?

But I don't think he's a guy that's built for 162.

And that's why Miguel Amaya and that combo, so important.

Well, what's interesting is, like Justin was saying,

Carson Kelly was supposed to be the backup.

It didn't play out because Miguel Amaya's head trouble,

even way back to the minors, in staying healthy.

He played in a handful of games.

He really didn't have much of a season last year.

But if you look at the stats and you go through it,

there's one that sort of jumps out to me.

And you know, I'm not a numbers guy.

But if you look at just WRC plus,

which is supposed to be the hitting stat

that tells you sort of the most about guys, right?

Miguel Amaya of all the catchers in the central last year,

even though he only played in less than 30 games,

his WRC plus was higher than any catcher,

any catcher in the division.

That includes William Contreras.

Now, Contreras hit 17 homer-soded Carson Kelly.

We expect to have regression out of Carson Kelly.

But if you look at Miguel Amaya, assuming he can stay remotely healthy,

you see the exceeding projection side of Miguel Amaya.

So while we might not get that season

from a 2.6 F war out of Carson Kelly,

and Zips is saying he's only going to be 1.8 this year,

you could guess that Miguel Amaya's 0.8,

Zips is saying now 1.0, but if he actually stays healthy,

I think Miguel Amaya hits way more than the eight projected home runs.

He had four last year and he barely played.

So could I see a scenario where those roles almost flip next year, right?

Per lack of a better term, almost flip that Miguel Amaya

if he's healthy could pick up the offensive side

and the extreme exceeding projections we got from Carson Kelly.

What if they just kind of each go a little bit the other way

and hopefully Amaya goes a lot the other way in the health category?

And I think it's, I don't think it's actually crazy

to say the combo could provide even more next year.

I never would have said that before,

but if Carson Kelly can do 75% of what he did last year,

I do believe that if Amaya is healthy,

he's going to crush what he did last year.

And so on paper, I was thinking at the end of the season,

well boy, you can't count on catcher giving you that next year.

And not so fast, maybe you can.

And I wasn't someone who said,

Jan Gomes was a mistake when they brought him back

and it was like even though they found a pot of gold

and Jan Gomes the first year.

I don't feel that way about Kelly.

I know you're getting a good defensive catcher

and I know the numbers weren't great in the second half.

But man, that was a sea.

He had as many home runs as William Contrares.

Are you kidding me?

Like it's past two.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know that the,

I don't think the Cubs are going to have

the best catching situation in the division.

I believe that's Contrares,

but that's what the brewers hang their head on.

Catchers like a last thought for the Cubs

and I think they're no worse than second in the division.

Even if Kelly regresses.

We're talking about a guy where there's Carson or Miguel

that's going to bat what seventh, eighth or ninth.

I mean, like you're talking about a guy

that's going to bat way down in the order.

And I completely agree, like I said,

I think, you know, Carson, Kelly was signed here

to be a backup catcher to Miguel Amaya.

And if that can happen this year, you know,

I think Carson Kelly, he just wore down,

you know, or batting him clean up.

Like why I, I still hate Carson Kelly

and the cleanup spot,

but like he shouldn't have been playing as many games

as he was, that's probably why a second half

wasn't as good as his first half.

But if Miguel Amaya is healthy,

Carson is not playing as many games.

And then, I mean, yeah, I think that you flip flop it.

Miguel, Maya is your starter.

Carson Kelly's your backup.

And then it is not crazy to think that they could either,

at the very least, stay the same production

why is this a duo?

But I do think there's more in there

because Miguel Amaya, we don't know exactly

what his full potential is.

Health will play a big part in that.

Yeah, and you can maximize your offensive potential

if you can get a little bit more matchup heavy

with these two players

and get them and put them in the best position to succeed.

Really quick, I just want to shout out a comment

from Chicago dude, 8888,

Cubs have a 90 win floor and a 91 win ceiling.

I'd love to walk through that room.

Love it.

Can you imagine a ceiling that's right next to the floor?

I think you'd be literally walking on your belly button.

I got a question for you guys.

It's just a tight, it's a tight floor to a ceiling.

Yeah, Justin could never fit in that house.

No, no, I'm done.

I'm done.

I'm done.

I got a question for you guys.

Let's talk about, let's talk about the third catcher

in the room, shall we?

Yeah.

I want to believe in spring training

that the Cubs are going to give Moises by a Stero

some run behind the plate.

Why not?

Now, I'm not sitting here and saying

that he's going to be a guy that's going to catch

40 games for you.

But could he catch every once in a while for you

to get his bat into the lineup?

Can he be serviceable enough behind the plate to get it done?

If you look at Carson Kelly and Miguel, Maya,

frankly, defensively, the metrics say

they're about league average.

Carson Kelly, a couple of defensive runs saved.

Framing is a minus with ABS, who knows where that goes.

And sometimes when we're talking about stolen bases,

a lot of that has to do with the pitcher

more than it has to do with the catcher.

But my question for both of you and Luke,

if you want to go first, is sometimes they would like to pair,

sometimes you pair a pitcher with a catcher.

Yeah, that's what I was just about to say.

So my question for you is if Moises by,

if it's February,

Pitchers and Catchers are important three days.

If you could pair Moises by a Stero

so it's one of the Cubs starters right now

to have him work with just that one pitcher.

And maybe on that day when he pitches Moises by a Stero

so it's behind the plate, who would that pitcher be for you?

So you're saying a personal catcher,

which is exact, as you were starting to ask us the question,

I was like, I wonder if they will go that route.

The personal catcher route with him.

And there's one guy get really good handling one guy

and we could throw you out there every couple,

every other start of this one pitcher.

So for me, there's two ways of going with that.

If that's the way they want to do it.

And first of all, what it does,

if you do that personal catcher is it limits the amount of voices.

Right? Like I don't need every pitcher

trying to tell him everything they know.

I want to simplify it because he's not going to be doing that much.

Simplify the game a little bit.

You're not going to try and learn of all three outfield positions

and third base and first base catcher, one pitcher,

one piece of information, one coach, here it is.

There's two ways they can go with it.

Number one is to pair him with somebody he's already caught

at the minor league level.

Somebody he's comfortable with and somebody that's comfortable with him.

So that you can grow that and the confidence levels are ready there.

Now you can still have a veteran trying to help that young catcher

and that young pitcher,

but is it already putting him on a platform where you say,

hey, look man, you're just,

it's just Jackson Wiggins throwing to you, right?

It's just Cade Horton throwing to you.

Don't feel bad.

It simply doesn't have that many pitches.

That's one route.

The other route is to put him with somebody that you say,

this guy's basically a coach.

And no matter what he calls,

we know this guy will shake him off and use pitch comments saying,

no, no, no, this is what we need to do.

And this is what we're going to do.

For me, that guy is Tyrone.

For me, that guy is Jameson Tyrone.

And I would say, listen, Tyrone is not our most important pitcher,

but he's one of the smarter pitchers.

He's been around the block.

He's got plenty of experience in knowing what to throw.

And if that catcher is going through some of the struggles

of calling a game,

Tyrone is a guy that could kind of bring him along.

And if they struggle a little bit together,

like you said, twice a month, once a month,

even, you know, like it's just a Tyrone start once a month,

twice a month, and side sessions.

It's not the end of the world.

So in that way, I think it's a better move

than pairing him with Wiggins or somebody

that you would have had at the minor league level,

because I don't want to put that pressure on the young pitcher,

either, that they're trying to learn together at the same time.

So I think if they do that, they should go the veteran route.

I think there's a third way that we have not talked about yet.

I will be the one to talk about it, because I am Hispanic.

I think that you put him with somebody who speaks his language

and somebody who is a Latin player as well.

And in our rotation, that's Andrew Cabrera, right?

So, Mo Baller and Cabrera, you know,

there's a common language there.

I think that Cabrera's new.

He hasn't thrown anybody, right?

So that like, he's used the Carson Kelly or anything.

So I don't think they're going to do this,

but I think there's a third option there of like,

putting him with someone that like culturally he's compatible with

and they had to speak the same language.

So I think there's a third way there.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, like catching 97 mile an hour change

up, this is pretty easy, right?

When there's a ton of swing and miss.

I, my initial leaning was Tyrone too,

because I was trying to put myself in the perspective

of the catcher of Tyrone loves it though first pitch strike.

And also, is there a guy, and this is,

this is the tale is all the time with pitcher and catcher,

is if I need to bury a pitch, can I trust my catcher

to knock it down, to snuff it out and suffocate it?

I don't know if I'd want to put Cade Horton

and Moises by Sarah's in a Cade Horton type of situation.

Tyrone has a slider, he likes to bury it every once in a while,

but Luke, I think you're onto something of where Tyrone

pretty much knows what he needs to do out there.

Yeah, my honorable mention would also be Matthew Boyd

because Matthew Boyd's repertoire is basically up and in

with the fastball, change up, and then he likes to throw

that curve ball every once in a while,

but he does it early in the count where he doesn't always

have to bury it.

But I do think at the least though, I would say that I think

if for Moises by Sarah's to be a catcher on this team,

and I think it would be a great additive, right?

It'd be awesome to have days when match was playing third,

Braggman's at DH and Moises by Sarah's behind the plate.

In theory, that's kind of like your best offensive mix

that you could really ask for.

I do think though that I think we're onto something

that if Moises by Sarah's is going to do it,

I would have him work with just one guy.

Right.

And probably it'd be like, it'd be maybe the day

where Moises by Sarah's catches the first six innings

and I don't think we see him in a lot of 7, 8, 9s.

You know what I mean?

So I want to piggyback what he said about Matthew Boyd.

Matthew Boyd has a phenomenal pickoff move.

So it kind of could hide some of the defensive blemishes

that by Sarah's might possibly have

because Matthew Boyd can keep that runner super, super close

because he has that phenomenal pickoff move.

So I didn't really think about that,

but if you're looking for a veteran

who now can defensively help this catcher as well

with his pickoff move, that is something I think about.

And I like Cabrera 2, but by only has it in C with Cabrera Luke

is that Cabrera does have a hard time keeping runners on base.

And Tyrone also has a hard time.

I mean, not keeping him on base, preventing them from steal.

Cabrera and Tyrone give up a lot of stolen bases.

That's the other part was it would it be, you know,

would it be the gates fly open on the days with Moises

by a Sarah's behind the plate because Cabrera and Tyrone

sometimes struggle keeping guys at first base.

I mean, there is a scenario too where we get through spring training

and it just doesn't work, you know, it's not working.

And then you have the non-roster invitees,

which I know we could touch on that tomorrow too,

but like they have a bunch of catchers there

because you have to have that depth at spring training

because it's always by attrition.

You know, somebody's always going to get hurt.

And Christian Bethincourt, the Christian Bethincourt game

could happen again.

And he's on that list.

So I ask you when we talk about Mo Baller.

And you know, I think that's everybody's fantasy

is that he becomes at least the backup catcher

to get some games that way.

And all of a sudden we're looking at our big dumper, right?

It's big dumper 2.0.

The National League's big dumper.

That's what we're hoping for.

And frankly, the brewers found their catcher.

I don't know if everybody thought William Contreras was going

to be the catcher that he turned out to be.

Now, defensively, he was better than what we're seeing

out of Bethincourt.

Do we think Bethincourt or do we think a Mo Baller

has a better chance of succeeding at catcher

than Christopher Morrell at third or Kyle Schwarber

behind the plate?

Those are the two guys I can think of where we were like,

ooh, what if we could turn this guy into a,

like it actually worked with Carlos Marmel.

And it actually worked with Wilson Contreras

who was not initially a catcher either.

So it's like, it's worked in other places.

But the two where I go, wow, that seemed like a long shot.

I mean, Schwarbs did play it at college,

but he just wasn't a great defensive player.

And Marmel, we thought, he's athletic, he could play third base

and it was a little more difficult than we thought.

Does he have a better chance than that?

That's okay.

That's a great one.

I have to give the edge, even though he was an abhorrent

in-fielder.

I have to give the edge to Christopher Morrell

because he played, he had the most run out there.

Yes.

By hook or by crook, you know, he was out there.

He made a ton of mistakes.

It wasn't great, but they at least got to the point

where they're like, we're gonna try and do this every day.

Cause they needed it.

Yeah, I think Schwarbs is a catcher.

Yeah, Schwarbs is a catcher felt like a non starter

from the jump.

And I know, I'm enjoying hoping and thinking

that they get Moises by a steroids some run

because I'm gonna be honest with you

for people that are mobile or fans.

I think him strictly being a DH this year

is just gonna inhibit him from having the type of season

that I think that we're all wanting to have.

I think we're gonna be like, oh, wow, man,

only 110 games have been to use healthy

because they had to rotate the DH position.

So I want to see them try it at catcher

because maybe ultimately, maybe he is closer to the Schwarbs.

It's like, dude, figure out how to play a little first base

or learn how to start playing left field, right?

And that's maybe how I would rank them personally.

I think that Carlos, I'm sorry, Chris from Morrell,

that whole project at third base was because

we needed a third baseman.

You know, we were, I mean, we were,

we were dying for a third baseman.

So we'll just try anybody there.

Okay, Morrell is athletic, whatever, whatever.

We don't need a catcher.

You know, I think we just talked about,

we have probably the second best catching combo

in the central.

So when it comes to more baller, like, you know,

I like this hypothetical game we're playing,

but I don't, I don't see him,

I really don't see him catching very often if it all, okay?

Now, Joey, you're right about the D H situation,

but it's the same thing with Matt Shaw.

We're like, you're getting Matt Shaw with, say,

400 bats and that helps your team.

A more baller as our D H against right handed pitching

is awesome, but there's a situation now

where you got a lefty for starter

and you slide Braggman into the D H

and you put Matt Shaw at third base, that's awesome.

So I'm okay.

Or a real quick, say it as the D H and Matt Shaw

on right field.

So like, for me, I'm expecting more baller

to be the D H for this team

when we are facing right handed pitching.

I do not expect him to be the D H 24, seven,

like a Kyle Schorberer.

I think it's gonna be a very split heavy

with majority of those at bats going to more baller

and I think that's great.

I think it's a, don't forget, he's also a young kid.

We're like, you know, it's not,

it's not gonna be superstar year one.

So put him in the best spot to win.

This team is built to allow him for a safe runaway,

to take off and I really feel like we're built for that

and that's how I envision more baller.

It's fun to talk about him catching,

but I don't see it, but I mean,

I guess anything's possible.

Yeah, the reason it's more like Schorber

and not like Morrell too is they're in a winning window now.

Like, we all knew when Morrell was trying

and it was just kind of like,

hey, they're rebuilding and why not throw a little,

you know, something at the fan here

and see if it sticks.

Not now, you're not gonna risk that as much

unless he actually really worked on it, right?

And I do give some guys like a lot of credit

for working on stuff in the off season.

So I'm not gonna say can't do it.

All right, real quick.

Today, before we go is National Pizza Day.

Are we going to overtime on this?

Do you want to go overtime on this for two minutes?

So we'll go overtime for National Pizza Day.

The fact that you want to go over, let's do it, baby.

Let's just throw it over time.

Is that over saying we want to go over time

for the pizza talk?

Are we going to go over time for the rape of pizza day?

Let's do it.

Yeah, I think we should go over time.

Okay, we still have two minutes.

We still have two minutes.

Oh, maybe we can squeeze that in.

Okay, what are you putting on your pie?

What are you putting on your pie?

What's your order for pizza and then tell me from where?

I'll go first.

I'm a big fan of Lumal Nadi's pizza.

It's my favorite pizza period.

And they have a thing called the Lou,

which is, I don't want to call it a veggie pizza,

but it's like tomato, spinach,

or butter cross, then it's actually called the Lou

from Lumal Nadi's deep dish.

And it is my go to every single time with red pepper

and oh, I love it.

Deep dish.

Yeah, I'm also Lumal Nadi's favorite pizza, deep dish.

I just do sausage, not sausage crumble, sausage patty,

butter cross, uncut the way God intended.

For talking tavern style, I'll be asking you,

load it up, baby, I'm a supreme guy.

Give me the bell pepper, give me the sausage,

maybe the pepperoni, the onion on there too.

I love fennel on my pizza, that's really good.

And I'll give you, oh yeah, fennel's great.

What are you talking about?

And then the final one is,

we used to sell this at a restaurant

that I worked at in Santa Monica.

It's actually a lettuce entertain you place.

It was a prosciutto and egg pizza.

So you had parmesan and pecorino with a sunny side up egg

in the middle of the pizza with thinly sliced prosciutto

around the pizza, and then you cut it and you dip it,

don't knock it to your try, baby.

It was really good.

I forgot that one too.

Luke, I will tell you that in Arlington Heights,

I've been going to either tortorices or wanes,

tortorices or wanes.

And I learned something from listening to Tom Waddle.

He goes with the SOB, and it's my favorite pizza now,

the sausage, onion bacon.

Crispy bacon, please, crispy bacon, sausage on your bacon.

But I will admit, I'm not against pineapple on a pizza,

and I'm not against, I go pineapple, onion, Canadian bacon

sometimes from tortorices, and that is thin crust, delicious.

Of course, tavern style.

All right, I guess that's enough pizza to talk for today's show,

but next time we can go a little bit over if we want to.

You can't see Luke's hands, but he's ordering a pizza right now.

Actually, we logged on at about 1 o'clock,

and then I went up and I had left over

tortorices, deep dish slice.

And that was just awesome, Jananian.

I had left over a little more than I had.

He's not even knowing today was national pizza today.

So see, something was in this guy.

That's right.

Hey, don't forget to sign up for the trip real quick,

and we will be there March 5th through 8th.

And thanks for checking out the CHGO Cubs podcast.

Thanks for watching in the chat.

Thanks to everybody that listens, and don't forget, until tomorrow, fly the W.