Homeschool Freedom Is Slipping with Mike Farris

Hey, everybody, this is Heidi St. John. Thanks for tuning in to the Heidi St. John podcast.

I have an awesome guest on the show with me today. Mike Ferris is going to join Mo for a few minutes

and give us an update on some of the big issues that we are that are going through the courts right

now, not the least of which is an update on the Johnson Amendment, which is finally, finally,

finally, hopefully once and for all being challenged. This, of course, would give pastors the

permission, not that they needed it, but it would restore the ability of pastors to speak openly

about their their political beliefs and even endorse candidates from the from the pulpit if they

so choose. And so we're going to be talking about that today. Also, we're going to give you a

legislative update regarding some of the legal challenges that are coming up against the freedom

to homeschool your kids. I'm glad you guys are here. This is the Heidi St. John podcast. Stick around.

I think you're going to be encouraged.

Thank you guys for being here. Today's podcast is being sponsored in part by my friends

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slash Heidi. All right, you guys. Lots of stuff going on in as it relates to homeschool freedom.

I talk about this occasionally because I want you guys to be aware that in case you think that,

you know, our homeschool freedoms are just secure and no one's going to try to bug the homeschoolers.

Uh, you're on. There are a lot of people in this country right now and all of them, I would say,

are on the left who really want to undermine our freedom that has frankly been very hard one

to homeschool our kids here in the United States. And my generation and the generation before me

has worked exceedingly hard, particularly, you know, 15 years before I even started homeschooling.

Mike Ferris, Mike Smith and Chris Clika were hitting the road and really William Wallace

saying all over the United States and eventually then of course founded the homeschool legal defense

association to effectively defend our right to homeschool our kids. Why? Because the homeschool kids

are okay. They're actually doing wait for it. Just fine. They're doing just fine. And yet we've got

you know, lunatics in Connecticut and Nebraska and several other places that are trying to undermine

a parent right and God given right I should add to homeschool our kids. And so I want to bring you

up on some of the legislation and some cases to watch Mike Ferris is going to do this for me in a

minute. But we're going to talk a little bit about Connecticut. They've got a Senate bill that's

that they're trying to get passed there that would require schools to notify the state when a

child is withdrawn from homeschooling and this would trigger a potential involvement from child

welfare services. So there's a lot of disgruntled. I don't say a lot. There are a few very noisy

ex homeschooled kids, disgruntled homeschooled kids who have a beef with their families and they're

trying to take out their beef that they have against their parents and against homeschooling by

bringing really, you know, over exaggerated regulation to regular homeschool families who,

frankly, are doing just fine. And in Connecticut, it's kind of exhibit a because this could lead

families to being flagged or checked against the Department of Children and Family Records.

And it links homeschooling with child welfare monitoring. So can you guys see the problem?

It's trying to say these two things go together. Abuse of children and homeschooling. They're linked

and so it effectively treats all families then as potential investigations and some of these

legislators are just, you know, chomping at the bit. They're salivating over this stuff because

the homeschool movement is a freedom movement. The homeschool movement puts parents not educators

in charge of what the kids are learning. There's another bill that's coming actually multiple

bills right now coming up in New Jersey. They would require things like annual registration. They're

trying to move homeschooling towards state controlled education at home. So they're saying,

well, we'll still let you, you know, homeschool your kids. But only if you do it the way we tell you

and only if you submit to, you know, random home visits and things like that. Only if you let us

treat you like a criminal. Now if you let us treat you like a criminal, absolutely fine because we

assume that you are a criminal. If you want to homeschool your kids, Mike's going to talk about that.

You guys have heard me talk about the Make Homeschool Safe Act. Just the title of this proposed

legislation, the inference is that homeschooling isn't safe. That homeschooling puts children at

risk and guess what? The opposite is true. Home school kids by and large are absolutely thriving.

They're thriving. They're happier. As a general rule, they're doing better academically. And the

Home School, the Make Homeschool Safe Act, which is model legislation that is continuing to spread

across the states, introduces mandatory reporting requirements in expanded government oversight

and regulation into the homeschool community. And main concern about this is that they're trying to

put or what can only be described as a national template that would standardize heavy regulations

across multiple states when it comes to homeschool freedom. In Illinois, a bill recently failed,

but I have a feeling it's going to, it's going to, you know, rear its ugly head again. So heads up

Illinois as if you don't have enough trouble already. Even though the bill failed, it really shows

the direction that policy makers are moving in the state of Illinois. And so the bottom line is,

you guys can talk about this, you know, in your homeschool circles and you can, you know,

complain about it on on social media and get on Facebook and rant about it. But the reality is

we need to be very, very vigilant about what's happening as it relates to our freedom in this country

on every front. But for me, in particular, as a homeschool mom and now, you know, I've got a bunch

of my grandkids who are being homeschooled, this really matters to me. So education freedom is about

who shapes the next generation. This is why the left in this country hates it because they want to

be the ones who shape the next generation. And if your child is in the public school, they're going

to leave you alone because guess what? The reality is if your child's in the public school, they're more

than likely going to come out a Democrat or a leftist, a pro-bortion pro-LGBTQIA, two-spirit plus

parentheses apostrophe mafia, it comes after normal people or as Ben Shapiro likes to call them,

the normies. And this isn't going to go away anytime soon. And so every time regulation expands

that line, that line moves. And we, we want to show up. Mike Ferris said to me a long time ago that

the surest way to lose a fight was simply not to show up. And so we're going to encourage you

guys to show up and pay attention to what's going on. Home schooling freedom really does matter.

And freedom, by the way, just far and away, freedom protects parental authority. When the government

expands oversight, it often shifts shifts authority from the parents to the state. And we've seen

this happen over and over and over again. When you've got freedom as a parent, it ensures that you

not a bureaucracy, not father Fauci, the high priest of the branch convidians, when you are in charge,

you get determined, you get to determine the worldview of your kids, you get to determine what

they're learning about and who is going to be the primary voice. You get to pick the curriculum.

This is another reason why I keep telling you guys don't take government money for home schooling.

I'm going to say it again. Don't take government money for your home schooling. I know that it's

tempting, but the reality is, and I just had the opportunity to talk to the Montana Family Association

when I was there about this very issue because when I was running for Congress, I ran on a platform

of school choice. And I'm a super fan of school choice inside the public school system.

If you go to a public school in the southeast part of your city and it's garbage, you should be

able to say, oh, hey, your school is garbage. And I'm going to try the public school in the northeast

side of the city, even though I don't live inside that quote, unquote, boundary. Those are your

tax dollars. They should follow the child, right? Those are called the backpack bills, right? The

money should follow the child. And so I'm a super fan of it inside the public education system.

Once you get outside the public education system and you start you start dripping public funds and

public money into home schooling, then like as with all publicly funded things, the taxpayer then

has the right. And they really do have the right to say, hey, that's my money. I don't want you

using it that way. And so unless you want your your child's education regulated by taxpayers,

don't take taxpayer taxpayer friends. And you're going to say, but that's not fair, Heidi. My

property taxes are going to pay for the public school. Why can't I keep some of them? Well, you're

right. It's not fair. It's pretty garbagey as a matter of fact. So I would say, how about we vote

for less taxes for the public schools? How about we vote for keeping more of our money instead of

buying into this idea that government money is the end all to all of our problems and trying to

get government money then to flow into home schooling because when the government sticks its sticky,

drippy nose under the tent of your home school, I promise you, it will not remove it anytime soon.

And so we need to be aware. This matters, you guys. Freedom prevents unnecessary surveillance

of your families. This is what they want to do in Connecticut. This is what they're trying to

do in Nebraska. When I testified up in Olympia recently, over another proposed piece of legislation

coming down from Chris Reichdahl, who is the chief, the grand Puba of the Department of Education

up there, the director of OSPI, that guy definitely wants to see homeschoolers more, more

regulated than they are right now. And if you just sit down in these hearings for a few minutes,

you'll hear it. But ultimately, what they want to do is have a right to interfere in the way

that you're raising your children. And they're going to use cases of abuse and there are cases of

abuse in homeschooling as there are in every sphere of, every sphere of education everywhere. I

mean, if I had a nickel for every time I turned on the news and heard about a crazy lunatic public

school teacher who was sexually assaulting a student or grooming a student or whatever, I mean,

you name it. It's happening. I'd be rich. This happens occasionally in homeschooling. And what

these guys want to say is because it happens occasionally in homeschooling every homeschool family

should pay a price for the wickedness of that one family over there. Well, that's not how it works

in a free society. And so freedom includes the right to raise your children without constant

government intrusion. And as a conservative and as a long lifelong Republican, I believe in

limited government. And that includes oversight into homeschooling. Your freedom is going to protect

your beliefs and your convictions the way that you want to raise your children. And without it,

your education just becomes a tool of cultural conformity rather than formation. You guys,

I'm going to say it again for the seven billionth time education is not neutral. No one's education

is neutral. Do you really think that your child's teacher in the public school is neutral in the

way that they believe about life? Let me just I'll give you a little example. So recently, our

daughter Summer signed up to take classes. She wants to become a sign language interpreter. And

she's actually very gifted at sign language. She teaches it here at the homeschool resource center.

And she thought, you know what? Let me take this to the next level and get certified so that I can

work in this field. And so she went down to Portland Community College and she signed up for

some sign language courses that she would need to pass to get into the program that she wants to

be a part of. So she's in these sign language classes like ASL, like it's American Sign Language.

And the professor in that class spent the vast majority of his time,

ranting about ice, ranting about President Trump said that if he could, he would run him over

with a car. This was my daughter's ASL instructor ASL. She wasn't in a political science class.

She wasn't in a history class. She was in an ASL class. And it was largely political at one point

he put up a picture of my friend Kurt Cameron and mentioned that Kirk was on the far right,

which of course, I screen shot of this and sent it to Kirk. I was like, look at this. You're famous

in an ASL class right in the heart of Portland, Oregon, which of course means you're over the target.

But I'm just telling you guys, education's not neutral. They're teaching socialist Marxist ideology

anti-Trump propaganda in an ASL class right now in Portland, Oregon. It's not neutral.

And parents, you need freedom. If you're going to be able to bring your children up, the way that

you would like to bring them up. And so real accountability, by the way, comes from engaged parents.

And this is why I've invited my friend Mike Ferris to join me on the show today. When I thought

about talking to you guys about this topic, I can't think of anybody better. Mike Ferris is a

national treasure. He's the founder of the homeschool legal defense association. Up until recently,

he was general counsel for the Alliance defending freedom. He is a giant when it comes to defending

freedom here in the United States and engaging with the younger generation to teach them the

principles that this country was founded on. He's a constitutional attorney, a great friend of mine.

Mike Ferris, welcome back to the show. Heidi, it's wonderful to see you again after just seeing

you impersonate a couple of days ago. It's great. I know. I feel like we're kind of in a little bit

of a time travel thing going on here. It's like now we're in Montana and now you're back in Virginia.

And I'm home here in Washington state. Thanks for taking the time today. Glad to do it.

Last time we spoke, you mentioned that there were some things happening. Hopefully some legislation

moving through the courts or a court battle related to the Johnson Amendment, which gives pastors

the freedom to talk openly and maybe possibly even endorse candidates from the pulpit.

Here, there's an update on that. What's going on? Well, our case was

pursuing on the basis that the Trump administration, the Justice Department, and I reached an

agreement that would exempt pastors during worship services from being regulated by the

internal revenue service that pastors could say whatever they wanted to say. So we worked out

on the agreement, but it had to be approved by a federal judge where the case had been filed

more than a year earlier. And that judge a few weeks ago ruled that he did not have jurisdiction

over the case on technical ground called the Anti-Injunction Act. But we think he

got that wrong, you know, basically our position is that law does not apply, says the Supreme

Court of the United States, in more than one case, when you have no other alternative other than

violating the law and getting the in trouble. There's a there's a basic rule when it comes to

first and other freedoms, you can always challenge the constitutionality of a law that

without having to violate it and get in trouble first, you have the ability to challenge it

in an affirmative fashion. So we think that the judge, you know, misunderstood that exemption

and you know, it's a good good guy, good judge, but you know, and we can have a legitimate

disagreement of opinion and we appeal to the Fifth Circuit. So we'll we'll get a decision

of the Fifth Circuit within, you know, either a few or several months, but it won't be like a year

or anything and we'll see what happens to the case. In the meantime, the Secretary of Treasury has

announced citing our case that they're going to provide formal advice on the Johnson Amendment

that relates to the subject matter of the case. So we're going to get something out of the White House,

but we want the permanent seat of a court order as well as whatever we can get out of the White House

as the best possible solution. So we're working on it and we still feel very positive that in the

long run, we're going to get a good answer out of this case. Now, this is a big deal, but there are

a lot of people that are listening to this, they're like, John's the Amendment, Johnson Amendment,

like we don't know what you're talking about. Why is this such an important case? Churches

have been under the impression since 1954 that they couldn't say what they want to say

from the pulpit about political candidates, and that's a fair reading of what the law

says, and especially how the IRS interprets the law, as represented by their website and many

other things, or publications over the years. And so this is what has just created a sense of fear

in the heart of pastors all over the country from not doing their duty. Now, the reality is,

we would not have the Bill of Rights but for pastors doing just this. The first election for

Congress, James Madison was running against James Monroe, and Madison being a Federalist didn't

think we needed a Bill of Rights. He thought that the limitations on power built into the original

Constitution were sufficient, but his Baptist buddies had worked with him over the years, and he'd

been a good friend and a good ally for religious freedom. He said, James, we love you,

but we're not going to vote for you unless you promise us a Bill of Rights. So the Baptist got him

to change his mind. They endorsed him in their churches. He got elected to the first Congress,

and that's how we got the Bill of Rights. The Enlightenment had nothing to do with it. It was a

political deal by Baptist pastors going to James Madison said, you want our votes? Here's the deal.

And so that's how it happened. And we are using the First Amendment, brought to us by pastors

to defend the right of pastors, to keep saying these kinds of things to people. So we think, you know,

pastors don't want to say this. That's up to them. If the pastor want to preach the whole council

of the Word of God and say that the Bible applies to every area of life, every area means it to me,

every area of life. And so then we're going to give the the freedom to the pastors have the guts

to do that. Yeah. And also, no, no chicken-coured pastor can hide behind it anymore. Because I think

that's a lot of what's going on. Pastors who just naturally inclined to shy away from anything

they think is political, even though 90% of these issues are biblical at their nature in their nature.

A lot of these guys are hiding behind that, just like we hide behind our 501C3. I kind of wonder if

that's next. Yeah. Well, this is 501C3 rules that this that's what it is. And so the Johnson

Amendment is actually one phrase in section 501C3 of the Internal Revenue Code. So it's brought to

us by our friend Lyndon Johnson, who I shook his hand when I was about 10 years old. And just for

the record, his hand felt exactly like the giraffe's tongue at the Portland Oregon Zoo. So.

You would know you've been to the Portland Oregon Zoo. The week before I shook Lyndon Johnson's hand,

I was at the Portland Oregon Zoo and fed the giraffe. And I told my mom that San Felica giraffe,

so she said, oh Michael, he does not. So, but I proved it to her later. So.

I love that. You and I were recently in Montana for the first sounds like homeschool convention.

They've had there in a very long time. And I think they're pretty excited at a great turnout.

And we spoke on a panel together. Actually, it was really just your panel. I said later to Landia,

I was like, look, we just we just hosted the first and never and now forever more shall be

national appreciation day for Michael J. Ferris. I'm pretty sure that we did that because

you everything seemed to sort of come back around to you. You have been at the forefront of

fighting for homeschool freedom in this country since people have been fighting for it. And we're

watching now new legislation, new attempts at, you know, over regulating homeschooling. Can you

give us a little bit of a primers to kind of some of the things that are happening right now.

And then I really want to know from your perspective, why it is so important for ordinary people,

like Heidi St. John, to stay vigilant when it comes to defending our right to homeschool our kids.

Well, sure, since about 20 years ago, most state legislatures have been fairly limited in their

attempts to roll back any homeschool freedoms. There've been modest things here or there.

Even the modest things have been killed usually. So we've had been in a pretty good season for

about 20 years. But in the last couple of years, and especially this legislative year,

the doors are starting to, you know, be knocked off the car and we're seeing a real,

a real resurgence of very draconian homeschooling laws being proposed. Now some of those have not

been successful, but there's about 14 or 15 states. Some of them in the child welfare arena,

making laws specifically aimed at homeschooling, but using child welfare as the hook.

And some just regulating homeschooling itself on more of a, you know, what do you have to report,

what do you have to do to get permission and that sort of thing. And so the relatively bad law

in Nebraska has been passed and signed by the governor. Now it's not the most crony thing in the

world, but it's not good. And so it ratcheted up the child welfare services provisions.

The most scary law is in Connecticut. And I'm sure we'll talk about that in just a second.

And that, it's hard to tell what is going to pass. There's a really good chance it will pass.

The Democrats have complete control of the legislature and, you know, it's Democrat leadership,

but, you know, there's controversy there. And so, you know, there's hope yet, perhaps.

There's real hope in court because they're going so far. But a number of states have considered

them and number of states have rejected it. A few states are still in progress. And so,

what we're seeing is the progressive left saying, we don't like the ideology that's being taught

to these homeschool families and to the kids. And we're going to find ways to crunch their freedom

so that we can get them back in the public schools and we can brainwash the kids according to our

woke theology. That's what's, that's the ultimate thing that's going on. Now, they're,

they're linking up with some disgruntled ex-home schoolers who have, in most cases,

have a bad relationship with their parents many times because they walked away from the faith.

And there's conflict in the family over that. And these disgruntled homeschoolers and my goal in

life is to make them disgruntled again. And, and so, the, that was honey-hyde you're supposed to laugh.

I did. I was just slowing the draw. I'm always slowing. I'm around you. This is, this is the

history of our friendship. Okay. All right. Why anyhow? They are the ones are saying, you know,

they're, here are these horrible cases. And to be sure, there are a very, very, very small

number of situations where homeschooling families have done abusive things to kids. That's true.

And, but the, the way a free country works is you punish those who actually commit the abuse,

not everybody. You know, if we were going to commit, punish everybody who groomed a child sexually,

they'd have to close them to public schools because the number of public school teachers that are

grooming kids sexually, I see it on Facebook every day, almost, you know, sorry. And the number

of women teachers that are grooming 13, 14-year-old boys, this is mind-boggling. And so, you know, it's,

it's, so we don't punish everybody for the sense of the few. And so that's what's going on in

these legislature. That's what's going on in Connecticut. Is there punny, thrashing to punish

everybody? What they're doing there is they're saying that social services will have to do an

investigation of every person over 18 years old in every home that wants to homeschool. And you

can't homeschool until that investigation is completed. I was supposed to do it rapidly. Maybe

they will, maybe they won't. But the standard is if you've ever been, an investigation was,

was started and it was considered to be, there's probable cause to investigate you.

And so they use different terminology for that, but that's really the standard. Is there

probable cause to investigate? That's the lowest legal standard possible. And as some agencies

decision, now, the number of cases that I've dealt with where that was found include, I mean,

the most horrific one perhaps was in California, where social services showed up at two

family's houses back to back. The brother and sister, both married, both have kids.

The grandfather hotline them saying that the fathers and both families were sexually abusing the

kids. The father, the grandfather was certifiably crazy. They had families had a court order against

him from stopping harassing their family. That the social services had a copy of the court order

for the second search. They knew there was that the sky was nuts and that he was banned from

messing with the families. They stripped search the kids anyway based on that because it was founded.

Now, when they, when that kind of nonsense is allowed to be the grounds, the grounds for founding

a case, you know, that it's, there's probable cause to investigate. You could have a lot of

junk out there and, and it, you know, reaches probable cause, but it doesn't reach truth.

And there's no adjudication by a court. So people are going to lose their right to homeschool

because somebody breathed an anonymous tip into a telephone and said, you need to go investigate

these families. I mean, one case I didn't have a deal with years ago, they investigated the family

because quote unquote, they were heavily involved in Adam City Baptist Church. That was it.

That was the investigation. And they were investigated. Yes. Yes.

Because that church was known for teaching that kids should be spanked.

And so that, that was the correlation. And so it's, it's, it's just craziness out there.

If they're going to do that. And, you know, the litigation that will follow this, if they pass it,

will be substantial. And I, I think that, you know, we're in a bad area of the country to be

litigating. New England is not a very favorable climate. But I can't see the Supreme Court of

the United States letting this go, go by. And, and, you know, the final course might even get it

right themselves. And I don't, I don't know about the state courts and Connecticut at all. So,

you think this is going to go all the way to the Supreme Court then?

It could. It could. If it goes bad, I think it really could. It's, it's so egregious and outrageous.

I think that the Supreme Court of the United States has a shot at this one.

I know that HSLDA is hearing more and more complaints and kind of raising the alarm. We just

had one here in Washington state and DJ flew out and he and I got to testify. They are trying

to lower the compulsory age of, you know, school attendance here in Washington state. We made,

I think a pretty compelling argument to the committee and that bill died in committee. But it is

shocking to me the number of people now who are trying to regulate and overregulate the home

school community. I think it's because they understand that they're losing control on a

generation over a generation of kids because they, you know, they want them in the schools as you

rightly pointed out. How important is it then for people who are listening to this to be aware

of what is happening in their states and even around the country? I mean, I feel like it's important

for me to know not just what's happening in Washington state, but what's happening in other states

because if it can, if it can succeed in Connecticut or Nebraska and there's a good chance that the

people who don't appreciate and don't want to see homeschool freedom continue tried in another state.

So how do we, how do we stay abreast of the stuff and why is it important?

Okay. Well, it's extraordinarily important if freedom to homeschool is important to you. And if

one family in America, because the law of one state in America isn't a bad spot, that's something

we all should be concerned about. Now, if one family's done something wrong, that's different. So,

you know, I don't really minute literally, but if there's not freedom everywhere, there's not

freedom really anywhere. And we need to be concerned about it. One reason is if the wrong political

party establishes a bad statewide precedent and that same political party gets control of Washington

DC, they'll put this into a federal law down the road in two or three years. And so we don't want

them to start these bad precedents in Connecticut or New York or anyplace else, because we don't want

the federal law coming after us. So even if we're in a really good state like Montana, or

or Wyoming, or you know, some place where freedom prevails for the most part, it still matters what

happens in Connecticut. The way is stay in touch is people need to be members of homeschool legal

defense association. And they need to be supporters, including writing a little check at least,

you know, can be a big check if they want, but at least a little check to their state-owned

school organization. That's the one to punch. And if they stay involved with their state-owned

school organization and HSLVA, they will be kept up to date, both of both those organizations

to not email alerts and so on. So you will know. And you will know in a timely fashion with

instructions on what you can do. And so, you know, and, you know, saying, oh, this is horrible on

Facebook. Well, okay, if you can do that, but that makes you feel better. Yeah, yeah.

Doing something. Doing something is calling the legislator, you know, making a contribution to

a legal fund, you know, writing a letter, there are actual things you can do, and always pray,

because I've seen God overwhelm, overrun, override the decisions amended in courts, in legislatures,

in school districts, all through the last 43 years I've been doing this. And so, I was seven

when I started, but it has been 43 years. I was going to say, I think you started and you were

three, but okay, we can we can settle for seven. You said something the other day when we were on

that panel that I thought was really good. And you were talking about when when we show up to

these things, we're putting a face to a to a piece of litigation or a piece of legislation.

Can you unpack that just a little bit in the last like three and a half minutes that we've got left?

My goal is for every legislator, both congressional and state level, to never think about

homeschooling as an abstraction. I want them to have actual people in their brain when they hear

the word homeschooling, they think of Larry and Sally or Bill and Mary or whatever, that real people

jump into their head because these people have gotten to know the legislator, they have be

friend to him if possible, but at least, you know, established a line of communication with them

that they know who this person is because it's much, much harder to vote against somebody you know

and to vote against an abstraction. And so it also the number one thing that both judges and state

legislators who are, you know, I think the number that are just completely analogs in state

legislators is a minority. You know, they're any log influenced all of them, but with the number,

but I would say about 80% are, you know, are, are malleable to some degree. And their number one

issue is are the kids okay? And if you, if they know your kids and they know that your kids are okay

or maybe even a little better than okay, then that's what they really want to know because they're not

no judge, no legislator is ever going to vote for something where he thinks the kids are not

actually okay. And so convincing people with real life experience that homeschool kids are okay,

they're doing fine, they're safe, they're happy, they're doing fine academically, they're in the

community, they're healthy, they're playing sports, they're, you know, in a wana or whatever that,

you know, they're normal good kids. That's the best legal defense that we can have in the

political defense that we can have in the ultimate sense. So your family is actually a part of the

wall that we need to build using Nebuchadnezzar's wall is the analogy. Yeah. And it's a big deal,

like when you show up to testify at these things, bring your kids with you, even for this last,

this last thing that I testified for at the state Capitol here in Washington, we overwhelmed

the hearing room. They had to open up extra rooms for all the families with all their kids. I mean,

there were nursing infants in there, there were kids, you know, little tiny ones all the way up

to high school, you know, these very eager kids trying to understand, why would you take away our

homeschool freedom? We're doing just fine. Even the kids that came and testified via Zoom, you could

tell had been instructed and knew exactly what they were talking about. And it made a difference

just for these 15 people sitting on the panel to hear from these kids. Indeed, it's the best

argument that we have is how our kids are doing. In fact, it's the reason most people decide the

homeschool. They look at other people's kids and go, hey, those are pretty good kids. And then

the parents, they go, no, they're just average parents. If they can do anything, I can't too. That's

right. That's right. That's right. Mike, there's a people are interested in finding out more about

HSLDA. Where would you send them? I would send them to do this thing at Al Gore,

invented called the internet. They get us for Al Gore. We haven't seen him in a long time.

I missed that guy. Yeah. HSLDA.org is where you go and learn all about it. And

HSLDA.org. How do you say John? Right there.

Well, honestly, the work that HSLDA is doing cannot be overstated in terms of defending

homeschool freedom and being vigilant about the attacks that are coming, which really are

increasing. I think that's kind of the point. These are increasing. There are people out there

who literally hate homeschool freedom would like to see it go away completely. And if we want

not to see that happen, we got to be vigilant and supporting HSLDA should be at the top of the

list. Mike Ferris, you are a national treasure. I can't believe you take the time to talk to me.

I'm still pretty stunned about it. So thanks for coming on the show today. As always,

it's just a delight to have you. Thanks, Heidi. God bless. God bless you. Well, thank you guys for

listening today. I hope that this is encouraging to you to, well, first of all, you should join

HSLDA for sure. Your membership there provides helps to provide free legal defense for homeschoolers

that are wrongly targeted by the government or by child productive services or whatever the case

may be. I'm a super fan of the home school legal defense association and have been for 25 plus

years. I love the work that they do. Anyway, check it out, HSLDA.org. And also more broadly, I just

want to encourage you stay informed, stay aware, find who your state organization is and follow them.

Because when these kinds of bills are introduced, if you guys will show up, almost always you'll win.

You just need to show up. And I know it's exhausting. I know that you're tired. I get it. But when I

see people like Mike Ferris, uh, still out there still doing the thing, still trying to teach people

why it's so important, still helping with litigation, still helping to review bad bills that are

coming before your state legislatures. When I see people like Mike Ferris continuing to do that,

it just encourages me all the more that freedom, and by the way, which is never more than a

generation away from extinction, freedom is important. And if you want to maintain your freedom,

you need to be vigilant. Educational freedom is about who shapes the next generation. Is it going

to be parents? Or is it going to be the state? And that is the real issue that's underneath all

of this stuff. So you guys go to HSLDA.org, click on your state and you can get connected right there

with your state organization. Thank you guys for listening. Thanks to my freedom cart.com for

it's as Heidi for sponsoring today's podcast. Uh, you guys, did I mention that they had beef

tello? They do. If you are tired of spending your money with companies that hate you and you want

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guys so much for listening. I'll see you back here again at the intersection of fake culture.