Hope Podcast: Featuring Leah Gawel, MDiv Candidate

Welcome to the Hope Podcast. I'm Hyatt O'Connor.

And I'm Jordan Ahmed. This podcast is offered by the Harvard Divinity School Office of Religious

and Spiritual Life, where we talk to HDS students about their spiritual lives, what hope

means to them, and how they practice hope daily.

Today, Hyatt spoke to a third year Master of Divinity student, Leah Gowall, about the intersections

of the arts and religious trauma, and the healing and empowering transformations we can bear witness to.

Leah, thanks for joining us.

Thank you for having me.

So, to start, we'll just do our usual. Can you give us a little bit of an introduction?

You know, where is home for you a brief spiritual autobiography if you're willing and able?

Yeah, I'm from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I grew up in the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Senate.

It's super small, super local. Normally people here don't know what it is.

I do not.

I'm always like, so you know the Missouri Senate, and then they'll sometimes be like, yeah.

And I'm like, they were Wisconsin Senate was more conservative, was more towards that direction.

And normally I get an oof just because we're at HDS.

But it was very confessional Lutheran, very strict conservative.

Everyone was related to everyone, so it was a little incestuous in that way.

There were only certain number of schools you could go to if you wanted to be a pastor or teacher.

Yeah.

If you wanted to be a pastor and you were a guy, you could go to the one seminary in Mekwan, Wisconsin.

So it was very like everyone was trained in this one area.

And there's not a lot of room for disagreements.

So that kind of put me on my path towards religious trauma work.

Yeah. Can you just clarify what is confessional Lutheranism?

It's like really strict conservative biblical literalism, really staying strict to the book of Concord.

I see.

Okay.

So you said you got you interested into your in your religious trauma work, and I'm assuming,

well, I also know you, we've known each other for a while, but I'm assuming that is directly related to how you got to HDS.

Yeah. So I was part of this denomination all through high school.

I went to a high school with a nomination, so I was very closed off.

So then when I went to an ELCA college, it was like, oh, no, you have a woman campus pastor.

Whoa, you're going to fall into sin.

And then I was going into musical theater, which is even more sinful.

So a lot of sin going up in there.

But during that time, I really started to deconstruct.

My campus pastor really became this mentor that kind of helped me through the dogmatic ways I was thinking.

Because it was just so ingrained.

And then being a part of musical theater, it really forced me to step into someone else's shoes,

which was something you weren't really trained to do.

And it taught empathy and things like that.

And I was like, I don't want my gay friends to go to hell.

I don't like that.

I don't like how I'm being treated as a woman.

So that kind of shifted me there.

And after college, I was like, I'm done.

Yeah.

Then during my master's, my master's was in music theater vocal pedagogy.

And that's kind of when I decided, oh, I think I have some residual trauma,

which is how I started looking at religious trauma.

I see.

And you said earlier in ELCA school, what is that?

Evangelical Lutheran Church of America.

So that's like the liberal progressive.

I see.

The biggest branch of Lutheranism in America.

Yeah.

And your master's in what was it musical?

Music theater vocal pedagogy.

You went into that because you really,

I'm assuming because you really love the musical theater things that you were accessing in undergrad.

Yeah.

It was really science driven.

It was really like, this is how the anatomy works to make these sounds.

And then how you can teach it.

And I really loved that.

I noticed during my degree, my cohort,

I sometimes had some vocal problems that they didn't.

Such as making Beltier sounds, such as making louder sounds,

such as certain sounds being tied to emotional states,

and not knowing where those came from.

So there were a few like, it's like with some adding hang-ups.

So then I started being like, hmm, wonder where that's coming from.

And at the same time, I was during the pandemic.

So a lot of us were on social media.

I started seeing more religious trauma content.

I started consuming like Dan McClellan's content,

where it's kind of going against misinformation.

That all happened at the same time.

Wow.

And it seems like from the get-go with musical theater,

even though you had fallen in love with it for its own reasons,

that it was tied to, or maybe tied to,

it's the wrong metaphor.

But nevertheless, related to this really gradual process of deconstruction,

that you were then starting to do more consciously and deliberately.

Is that right?

Yeah, and even in, it's funny because in high school,

we couldn't really do a lot of musical theater because it was sinful.

We could do like Oklahoma and stuff like that.

But my show choir director really loved Rent.

I see.

But that was a big no now.

So whenever we performed our Rent Medley,

he had to go up and be like,

we don't condone actions in this musical,

but we want to focus on the friendship and love themes.

But we don't condone anything.

It's about love and friendship for us, and that's it.

Wow.

Yeah.

That's a...

What would that...

That's not really cognitive.

Is that cognitive dissonance?

What that would be called?

What would that be called?

That phenomenon.

Yeah.

I mean, yeah.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah.

It's like really trying to justify why you want to...

Yeah.

...do rent, but can't.

For all the parents who get upset.

Okay.

And you graduated with your master's in Music and Vocal Pedagogy,

in what year?

2021.

Wow.

Right in the panda.

I got my undergrad in 2019.

Okay.

I was actually in...

...Junnan, China, right before the pandemic.

Yeah.

We left right before the festival, which I think the day we got back

was the day before they started screening at O'Hare for COVID.

So we got up right on time.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah.

And why were you in China?

I was choreographing a production of Lion King Jr.

It was super cute at Quan Quan Theatre School.

Okay.

Yeah.

How did you get that opportunity?

Is it through your master's degree?

Your first master's?

This was before I did that master's, but I went on a tour of China...

...at some point in college.

We did Susical.

Susical.

Yeah.

We toured it around some of the schools to kind of...

Like a doctor says musicals?

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

It was a condensed version of Susical.

But my school of Carthage College had a lot of partnerships

with schools in China and different cities for like international exchanges.

So I did that tour to promote that.

And someone I knew from the tour was directing and it was like,

hey, I need a choreographer.

Wow.

What an amazing opportunity.

Yeah.

And a quick exit, like a timely exit right before you can walk down.

Yes, yes, yes.

Wow.

And then...

So there was a couple years of a gap.

But then can you just say a little bit about why HDS?

Like what...

What was it that drew you to hear specifically?

Yeah.

So I was debating if I wanted to go the psychology route or go the religious studies route

or go the music route and how I wanted to go about this topic and looking back.

And I think at the time too, I was like psychology makes the most sense.

I don't know why I'm so drawn to going to a diminished school.

And I think now I've sort of parsed out that I want to be able to say,

I have some knowledge in this.

The pastors in my former denomination were always like, well, we have a degree in this

and we can read the original language.

So you can't ask us any questions because we know better than you.

Right.

So it felt really healing to be like, oh yeah, now I know how to read the Greek and stuff.

And now I have the same degree as you.

What once I graduate?

Okay.

So you came to HDS as a way to...

At least this is how I'm hearing it.

Forgive me if I'm projecting to maybe try to do not...

And jack of all trades is the wrong thing but try to get as many birds in one basket at a time.

Yeah, I think there's a lot that therapy and psychology helps with religious trauma.

Considering I'm planning on doing that after this.

But I think for me, the most healing parts were learning about how it was weaponized,

learning about the history, learning about the different interpretations.

Because in my mind, it was always so black and white thinking.

It was always...

If one thing is incorrect or if there's one contradiction in the Bible,

then you throw the baby out with the bath water.

We need to defend this at all costs.

So going through those theological questions,

I don't think a therapist could have walked me through that.

Which sounds really selfish that I want to do that for myself,

but I think it will also help a lot of other people.

Yeah, I don't think that's selfish at all.

I had similar questions when I was coming in about...

That's the reason I took Greek.

You know, I'm here for Buddhist studies and I could have...

Well, some argue I should have taken Polly instead

or tried to do classical Chinese or something to that effect.

But when I was growing up,

I didn't experience the weaponization of theology in the Bible to that degree.

But I did experience a lot of people in my family and people I knew

using Christian theologies

and using very formulaic teachings

to justify certain worldviews and certain ways of behaving in the world

and also give certain explanations of things that to me were never satisfying.

So like you, I thought, well,

okay, let me actually see what this says

and the way it is said

and the way it could be said that isn't traditional.

Yeah, I definitely got the cliche growing up where I was always told in school

you don't interpret the Bible.

The Bible interprets itself.

And if you try to interpret the Bible,

you're adding yourself onto God's message and the whole law.

And that was dissatisfying for you.

I would assume.

Not at the time, not at the time I was fully in.

I was fully committed.

I was like, yes, this is correct.

But then it's hard when you come into conflict with like,

oh, I don't like how I'm being treated as a woman.

But yeah.

So if you're comfortable with it,

can you tell us a little bit more about your work at HDS?

I know it's kind of expansive knowing you.

But just a little bit about how your background informs what you're doing,

maybe the things you're planning in the immediate future of the semester

or what you're planning on doing afterwards.

Yeah, so my capstone is this verbatim play called Broken Covenant

that I started as part of a fielded venture with a professor

at my undergraduate university for anyone who doesn't know.

Verbatim play is interviewing people about their real world experiences

and then those become the words of the play,

the words that were spoken, become the text.

And you're putting all of these separate interviews in conversation

with each other.

So it's not a narrative.

It's like this thematic arc.

Yeah.

Where it's people, real people struggling and grappling with questions.

It sounds really,

I'm writing a collection of poems for my senior,

they call it a senior thesis,

but we're third year master students,

so it's kind of odd verbiage there.

But for my project, I'm writing a collection of poems.

And similarly, there's not a narrative in a collection of poems

or a poetry manuscript,

but there is this sort of thematic arc that emerges over time

in compiling it and also in what the individual poems,

or for what your project is,

the individual people are themselves offering.

There's a very common teaching tool used in CPE programs

that we, and it's a little dated and slightly problematic,

but it is useful if you've never heard it before,

that we should approach people,

other patients or other people who are offering pastoral care to

as living texts,

like human beings as living texts.

And for your project to do that

in a very formally clear and distinct way,

I think, I don't know,

it seems to me related and important.

Yeah, I think the big thing that I wanted to get across

with this project is that trauma comes in all shapes and forms

and a lot of people feel like,

oh, because this really bad thing didn't happen to me

or, well, it's not as bad as X, Y, or Z,

then it's not actually trauma, it's not actually real.

So a lot of these stories just go untold

and people hold them inside themselves

with this quiet shame of,

did I really go through what I went through?

So it really highlights these small little significant moments

or phrases or things that have happened

that stick with them in adulthood that you maybe wouldn't expect.

It sounds like the whole process of creating

and then presenting that project is healing

not just for those who you're interviewing

who get to share this experience

and have it validated in that way and witness in that way.

But for you also to witness and validate

and to share with them.

And then also for people just to,

I don't know if you're going to have it produced in a way

the word, it's an actual play,

but if you could go to see it or if you go to read it

to have yourself validated and witnessed as a reader

as somebody who's taking in the text.

Because it might be a play focused on religious trauma

and elements of religious trauma,

but trauma across the board has a lot of resemblances,

even if it's not explicitly religious trauma.

So it can have a really wakeful and far-reaching effect.

Yeah, I definitely understand that like healing power,

I guess, the summer when I did a lot of interviews,

I stayed with my family for almost the whole summer.

So it was this really big cognitive dissonance.

I'm going to go interview these people

and a lot of people came from my former denomination

and hearing about those awful things

and knowing like, oh, that's the school I went to.

I know this person you're talking about.

Like, I'm so involved in this world

and hearing about trauma for like hours and hours

and then going home and my mom's watching church on TV

and the pastor is saying things I find absolutely repulsive.

So figuring out how to grapple with, okay,

this is my research, this is my experience versus like,

this is still my family dynamic

and how do I navigate that?

But then also in terms of the healing process

for the interviews,

a lot of the interviews came for our first reading

that summer after the interviews.

And of course, we take all of the necessary steps

to make sure it's confidential,

make sure it's anonymous.

We had a talk back after the show

and someone asked a question

and I forget even what the question was

and it was about someone's story

and literally the interview we raised her hand in the audience

being like, oh yeah, that was my story and blah blah blah.

And was able to give that explanation to that audience member

and then the interview was like,

how many other interviews are there

and I was like, you don't have to raise your hands

and like all of them raise their hands.

Like they all felt very,

like it was a safe space to do that

and they were really proud of the work that was done.

So it was a really impactful moment.

And empowering too.

Yeah.

And do you think that there is an element,

I just, this is something I'm hearing in it

that may or may not be accurate,

that when you leave your community

or step aside from it to deconstruct

because you've been traumatized or for whatever reason,

that it's often difficult to find another community

or that there's this gap.

And so that being the case for,

I don't want to actually, I don't want to generalize,

but that being the case for some people, if not many people,

do you think that this project also is a way

of forming new communities and new connections between people?

Yeah.

Yeah, I think I'm lucky to be here

and to be able to form communities

with people with common interests.

But I don't think that happens for a lot of people

who leave their churches.

And that's a big social loss.

That's a big communal loss.

That's like missing something.

A lot of people will stick in unhealthy situations

just because that loss will shake their world so much.

Yep.

But you're starting to see these pockets of communities

of people who've had similar experiences start to form.

Yeah.

I know after the summer where I was interviewing people,

one of the interviewees who was a good friend of mine

started forming this ex-wells discussion

before people were able to talk about their experiences

and even just getting people in the same room

to recognize this place, this synod has caused a lot of harm.

It's something that's just not done.

It's always like this very secret thing.

So just getting that out there was really impressive

and I'm really proud of them for doing that.

Yeah, I would be proud too.

It seems like it's another instance of a wide network

of healing processes that are all into related

and which your work here is one significant node of,

yeah, that's really special.

Thank you for sharing that.

And I know I'm gonna give you a little plug here.

I know there's a certain conference that you've been instrumental

in putting together that's happening soon.

Could you say a little bit about that?

Yeah, so April 16th and 17th were doing the inaugural

religious trauma symposium, which I'm really excited

about we've been planning it these past few months

and I think it's gonna be really great.

So it's Thursday and Friday.

The Thursday night's gonna be a showing of this play,

a reading of it.

And then Friday is going to be panels and round tables

and then that evening, our keynote is Damn McClellan

and Damn Beacher from the Data Overdog web podcast,

which is so exciting.

Considering that his content was one of the reasons

I ended up here.

Yeah, I'm a fan of his too.

Yeah, and my friend, I have a good friend, Dylan.

And Dylan, if you're listening, hello.

He has been sending me Damn McClellan's content

for a long time now.

And I'd never really watched until about a year ago

and now it can't get enough.

I love that guy.

Yeah, and Damn Beacher too is so great.

I resonate with him in the podcast so much with like

the person who's like, okay, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Please explain it to me.

But yeah, I think he is also really representative

of the people who have been harmed by that

and is able to bring that background and knowledge into that.

I think bringing those folks here to HGS too

is going to be really valuable perspective

to the student body and even the faculty

who hear a lot of mentions about religious trauma

and religious trauma work and psychology work around it

and somatic work around it,

but maybe don't have a full exposure to that sort of work.

So I think not only are you doing a lot of important healing work

for other people and for yourself,

but you're offering to the academy and to other people

just valuable information and perspective

that they probably wouldn't get otherwise.

Yeah, I'm really hoping it spreads to the faculty.

I think that's one of the main reasons we want to host this event

because religious trauma research has really picked up

in the last few years, but during my first year

talking about how I wanted to research religious trauma

and being told like, oh, that's not really a thing.

It's just trauma with a religious context.

There's nothing really unique about that.

And now all of a sudden it's starting to get that more respect

and I'm hoping the conversation continues

and we can build momentum on that.

Yeah, that would be really fantastic.

And I have a feeling it is trending that way here,

not only because this conference is happening,

but just the more things we're hearing

out of the Office of Ministry Studies

about different programs and that the dean is being receptive

for these sorts of things.

It's an important development that's happening

for the broader community.

Not just because of me.

No, not just because of you.

But you're instrumental.

I'll say, I think so.

That's my two cents.

Well, this is a related question.

But are there any practices or insights

that you've gained over your life or recently in the years

that either are from a tradition or not from a tradition

and by the way, the word tradition is very capacious

that give you hope or that make you feel hopeful.

Yeah, so I don't do any,

I guess religious, tradition stuff

haven't taken the Eucharist since leaving the church

or anything like that.

But something I do, I do pull, I do pull dancing,

which has been so incredibly healing,

first of all, in terms of like purity culture and things

like that.

But then also coming from a musical theater background

where it was very like you need to look a certain way

in your body to get jobs, you need to lose weight,

you need to go to this many dance classes

and eat ex-wiresy things was really harmful.

So now being able to get into a room with a great group

of women in queers and focusing more on what our bodies

can do rather than necessarily what they look like

and focusing on what feels good.

Like the idea of sensuality as what feels good to your body

is a totally new concept for me,

considering it's always been based on like the male gaze

or how you're being perceived.

And yet another empowerment, right?

It seems like the broad, thematic connection

through a lot of the story that you've shared today

has to do with witnessing, healing, and empowerment.

That's really special.

And it shows that those sorts of things can happen

in all manner of different places in locales.

Like it can happen through touring a musical in China

and teaching children.

It can happen through academy work

and getting these scholars who you really admire

to come and give a conference on this thing

that you're working on.

It can happen through doing creative work in the academy

like what you're doing.

It can happen in your personal life.

All of those different aspects

seem to mutually inform and support each other.

Does that's, am I right there?

Yeah, I think just coming from like a liberal arts background

I've always found it important to expand yourself

into all these different areas of knowledge.

And sometimes when I describe my background

and my degrees and my previous jobs

and the jobs I'm doing now,

like you can see a look on other person's face

like how is this all connected?

I'm like I swear it is.

But it really is.

It really shapes who you are inside the room,

outside the room, and just who you're becoming.

Yeah, thank you for sharing that.

I appreciate that.

And then before we go,

do you have any podcasts or books or movies

or any other sort of beauty

that you would recommend to our listeners?

I've been on my Million Through Watch of the Good Place.

Yeah.

It is my favorite show.

I think it's healed a lot of my religious trauma.

It's just delightful.

And it'll make you cry.

So if you don't feel like crying,

maybe don't watch that.

Maybe don't watch the good place.

What kind of is it like a big time ugly cry

or like a sweet poignant type of cry?

Or a little bit of both.

Both.

Okay.

Both.

It is especially once you get to that finale,

I'm like ugly crying.

Okay.

I'm not a pretty cryer.

So, yeah.

Is anybody really a pretty cryer?

Yes.

And it's not me.

Okay, I'm not on that list either,

but the search will go on.

All right.

Thank you for joining me.

I appreciate your conversation with us today.

Thank you for having me.