How Do I Help My Boss Without Doing Their Job For Them?

0:00If you're an executive coach listening right now, I want to tell you about something I'm hosting this December. It's called Evolve, and it's a four-day immersion for coaches who work with executives and senior leaders. We're going to a beautiful place in Mexico, me, you, and a small group of executive coaches, doing the kind of inner and outer work that actually changes how you show up in your coaching practice. If that sounds like something you need, go to MurielWilkins.com slash Evolve to learn more, that murielwilkins.com slash Evolve. Let's evolve together. I'm executive coach Muriel Wilkins, and this is coaching real leaders. I've spent over 20 years working with highly successful leaders who hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump so they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several

1:01months, but on this show we have a one-time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they're facing. Today I'm coaching someone we'll call Kate to protect her confidentiality. She previously worked for a large company for many years, steadily moving up the ranks, and even getting some unexpected exciting opportunities. I got the amazing opportunity to rebuild part of the organization. To essentially rescope, rebuild it, give it a purpose, and working really with the executive leaders of the company to assign a purpose like an added value to the company. But even with that growth and the interesting challenges, she felt like it wasn't enough. I was really haunted by the desire to grow even more, but I wasn't able to find a place to grow in the company. And then after a while I came across this really amazing opportunity to

2:05join another company. At least from the outside, it looked really amazing, and I thought, well, let's give it a try, because not that I was desperate to find something else, but it came along, and it gave me the perspective to essentially leverage the experience that I had from the previous company and rebuild it into a different company. Since she started in that role though, things haven't exactly turned out as she might have hoped, largely because of a strange relationship. That's where we'll start today. So when I first joined, I realized it's just an amazing company, and that is actually still what I think today. I love the culture. It's a purpose-driven culture, caring type of culture. So I found it incredible, in terms of purpose, in terms of placing the industry,

3:14possibilities, even for the employees, talent development. So on so many levels, it is really an amazing company. And I knew that I was joining a rather small team. I knew that there was a lot to build as a matter of fact that was actually brought in to the exactly that. And when you say build, can you share a little bit what that means? What are you building? So structure, the way we operationalize a certain function in the company, but really structure the whole work. So it starts from, okay, what is division, what is our strategy, and then it drives from strategic objectives, basically everything. It also includes thinking about then roles, responsibilities, just attracting cinema systematic way. They wanted to do it, but it wasn't there

4:16at the time. So I started, you know, injecting my ideas, proposing my ideas. And there was no follow-up on what I was proposing in a way. And it was like, okay, that's great. Can you put it in a... Who were you proposing to? To my manager at the time, yes. Okay. And then you weren't getting any follow-through or feedback on the ideas? No, no, she was saying, okay, just, you know, send it over, and then we can discuss. And I remember that time there was like, I didn't hear about it. And I thought, maybe it's just bad. I started doubting, I didn't actually dare to ask her any feedback. And at some point, I thought, well, let me just ask and see what happened to that. And then she was saying, oh, yeah, that was really good. It's just that now we have something else to look at. Or yeah, it was good. And we will take it up again, maybe in the future. There was no follow-through.

5:21And I kind of questioned, okay, what is really happening here? We weren't really making much progress, at least in my view. And I try to have that conversation and say, you know, I'm not sure how we should go ahead. And I don't know what you think about. I don't know if I should give my feedback or if I should propose things to you. How do we work together? How can I contribute more? So when I joined, I was like, okay, I can start doing things. And I was doing a stakeholder map. And she said, a stakeholder map, that's fantastic, because I can give you advice on how you know, how you could build your network in the company. And that is super important. So I started doing that. And we were having our one-on-one and said, yeah, I mean, this is, you know, the executive leader where we roll up into. Basically, this is our organization, right? So I would start from there.

6:23And she said, but you'll never talk to her. I was shocked because in my previous company, I had exposure to exactly leaders of that caliber. I had much more exposure. And as a matter of fact, the type of the organization and the function of that organization in the company is very, very similar. I mean, between the two, sure. And in the previous organization, I had much more exposure to executives, which I think gives more power to the organization itself, to the function. But also, it gave me a fantastic opportunity to grow, to talk about, you know, the big picture, expand my vision in so many ways. When she said, but you're not going to talk to her, right? Okay. Well, that's the reality check. Yeah. That is a reality check. Okay. Let me pause here because I want to make sure I understand the full context. So you've been in the role brought in

7:27in your mind to do what you've had success doing at a previous organization. You love the culture of the new organization that you're in. But in terms of being able to execute on the role according to what you think needs to be executed on, you're facing some obstacles. What are the obstacles? I think it might be just working with her. Okay. Because she is responsible for our team. And I am supposed to help her. I am the most senior in the team. You know, so we cannot make progress. And at some point, I thought, well, you know, if I cannot make progress on building the organization within her scope, I can at least build things for my own scope, which is of course more limited compared to because she has a larger team. And so I thought, well, let me go ahead and maybe just

8:32by showing some examples, you know, within my own scope, we can deploy if that's okay and if that's something that works, we could deploy it across. And I started doing that. But then I realized she wanted to be really super involved everywhere in what I was doing. I needed to bring her onboard of everything I did. And that is super disempowering for me. It's just demotivating. And I'm kind of asking my question, okay, help me understand what is really going on. Do I have some kind of, you know, hidden blockers here? And I cannot really work with her. I feel like a child, you know, that and I'm so senior. I'm just, I have basically done for job. The scope that I had in the previous company is even larger than the scope that she has. So that's probably

9:35also a problem because I am thinking basically all the time, you know, I can do your job actually. Yeah. And what do you think she's thinking? I think she thinks the same, which is different than I'm here to help you do your job, which is what you said you were brought into. That's right. And so if you approach it from a place of, and we'll get into some of these, but when you're sort of in the back of your mind thinking, I can do your job. How do you think that informs the way that you have approached the role so far? Yeah. I have been taking about it. I mean, it could be that the way I communicate is maybe I'm coming across as arrogant. Maybe I am, you know, just laying down the law and say, look, I have done this many times. This is how it works. I have been watching myself a lot, just trying to really refrain myself from doing that and from

10:41having any kind of behavior. And I can share what I think I have done previously, but of course, it's a different company. It's a different context. So you'll have to tailor it. I'm fully aware that you can't just replicate. You just come in and replicate it. It doesn't work like that. This is why I'm also very careful is say even maybe afraid of asking feedback because I would say, well, maybe I'm coming across as too arrogant or I even actually tried to have an open conversation with her. At some point, I said, you know, sometimes I'm just leaning back and letting others speak first because I don't want to be always the first to say, hey, here's how it would work. And actually, at that time, she said, no, no, no, no, as a matter of fact, you shouldn't hold anything back. Please do help us. Everything that you have done is so

11:44beautiful. And please do speak. And yeah, be always the first to speak. That's fantastic. Just go ahead. In reality, though, thanks to not workout because I feel like she with some very key stakeholders, she wants to be in charge. She wants to just show she is the one that actually, you know, has done it. Okay. So I want to come back to this. You could do the operating thought that you had, which is I could do this job, right? I could do her job. And what it seems like you said you were brought in for, which is I'm here to help her do her job. And so when you think about the difference between the two, and by the way, I don't see you in a room, I'm not sure if you come off as arrogant or anything like we don't know, okay? But I think that there is something here around the expectations of the role. And what you might be expecting from it versus

12:51what she might be expecting from it. Let's assume that her expectation is Kate is here to help me do my job, right? What difference does that make in what you think she expects from you? And I'm not saying it's right or not right. I'm just saying if that were the case, what difference do you think it makes in terms of what she expects from you? Yeah, I think it's a good way to frame it because I think it makes sense then that she would ask me to channel everything I'm doing to her and just, you know, bring her up to date and really inform her on everything that I do. And maybe through this, she's thinking, okay, I can then absorb and essentially make it, and I can help then the rest of the team to make it more structural. And so I would say within that frame, I think it makes sense how she behaves.

14:01And I don't know if that is the case, but from what you're describing and even the words that you used, right? In terms of I was brought in, my role is to help her and yet I have this thought of I could do it. Those are two different roles. One is about ownership and the other is about support. And I'm not here to say again that one is better than the other or right or wrong, or that even what she's doing in terms of, you know, I want to see every email and I'm the one who needs to talk to these people. I'm not going to sit here and say, that's right or wrong. What I know is that if she believes that you are here as support and you believe that you are here to own something, there's a mismatch. I can see that. I can't say here is the narrative around the mismatch. What I can say is there's a mismatch. And so when there's a mismatch, right?

15:01She's not the one sitting in front of me. You are. You can sort of say, okay, so what do I do with that? What do I want to do with that? We'll be right back after this. Today's episode is brought to you by Alma. A year from today, who do you want to be? And who is on your team to help you get there? Imagine for a minute the version of yourself you'd like to meet one year from today. Do you feel as anxious or maybe more like yourself? Your grief could be more manageable or your relationship might even be stronger. To get there, you need help. And therapy can be one of the best tools you can find. Luckily, Alma is also here to help. Help you with finding the right therapist for you. Alma has a directory of 20,000 therapists with different specialties, life experiences, and identities, and 99% of them take insurance. Just search for your specific

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17:03The best part? This bedding feels like you're at a luxury hotel, but it costs 50 to 60% less than similar brands. Quince sheets and duvet covers have become my favorite. They feel substantial, but still soft and breathable and honestly feel so luxurious. Upgrade your bedding with quince. Go to quince.com slash murial for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. Go to Q U I N C E dot com slash murial for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince dot com slash murial. At the core of many frustrations at work is misaligned or unmet expectations. That can be a misalignment between your goals and the current opportunities, a misalignment between the company's strategy and where you think it should go, or as in the case of Kate, a misalignment between what you think your role should be,

18:05and how your boss use it. As I listen to Kate lay out the problem, I quickly noticed a disconnect, a small but possibly important distinction between whether she was there to help her boss, or there to do her boss's job. Kate initially framed her frustration at work as her boss holding her back, saying one thing and doing another, essentially being protective over her own domain at the organization. So the first thing to do was help Kate explore other possibilities, and especially begin to think more about her boss's perspective. Let me ask you, do you think that there's a way that you could, or have you try to confirm, or better understand what she thinks she needs from this role? Yeah, I think she made it very clear that there was a structure to be built a way for everyone in the team to operationalize. She was very

19:09articulated about, we need to build these strategic objectives, think how we add value to the company, and from there, select the programs we need the activities we need to work on, and from there figuring out KPI's, how to track progress, communication strategy, all of that, and she was telling me, I need a help. I see you as the senior, even that has done that in the past, and I see you as the one that really is going to help me. But there is no single time that we have been discussing ideas. So I was thinking at that time, I was thinking that we would work on this together. I was thinking she would co-build, she would have ideas, she would bring, you know, her vision, her vision is of the politics that

20:11basically plays, you know, in her environment and maybe at higher levels, that's what she lives on, relationships. So she's really a relationship person. I know the value of relationships, but I'm also really focused on the content. That's the one major difference between us. What I hear is there is alignment on the what, meaning what it is that you were brought in to work on, creating the structure. So there's alignment around the what. What I'm also hearing is that potentially where there is misalignment is in the how. How do I help you, right? You've used this word a lot. It sounds like she's even said, I need you to help me. Yes. So what conversations, if any, have happened around what effective help to her in building this thing is? That's a good question, actually.

21:19I think we never had a conversation around this topic that you're pinpointing right now. I mean, it's so crystal clear when you say there is alignment on the what, but now we to tackle the how and how do we make that how effective we need a friend conversation. Because in all these months, I realize that we have so many differences. I mean, we have a completely different personality. We have a completely different view of what it means to work in the company, our functioning in the corporate. We never really had a friend conversation about how do we make the how now? Right. When we see the differences, it's easy to stay focused on that. Rather than say, oh my gosh, even more reason to become crystal clear and create

22:24the intersection and the commonalities, the alignment, right? Because in the reality, it's okay for the two of you to be different. It doesn't matter. Let's focus on what matters. What matters is that getting from the current state of where the organization is to the future state, requires alignment on a few things. And as long as there's alignment or intersection on those things, the rest of the difference is it's fine. It doesn't matter. What matters is, is there intersection around this one very important through line? Okay. Usually where there's a breakdown, it's usually around the what, where are we going, or the how, or both. And in your case, I think it may be the how. So this is sort of, you know, I don't know if you ever saw that movie, Jerry McGuire, I'm dating myself, but it was a Tom Cruise movie. And he says to the person,

23:25he's like, help me help you. I think this is a help me help you moment, relative from you to your manager. And so let me pause there. How does that land with you? I think it's spot on. Actually, it makes me think that I have been trying a couple of times to have a conversation with her on the fact that there was no progress. I didn't put it that way, but I wanted to have her view on how things were progressing in general within the team, you know, with the organization that she has responsibility for. There's always a lot of talking, but at the end, I don't think we really came to, okay, how do we tackle it then? What do we do then? But it's just so difficult to have a friend conversation with her. What makes it difficult? Because she doesn't really want to

24:26hear anything that is slightly negative. I actually stopped already a long time ago to try to have, you know, a very candid conversation. So let me ask you a question. What do you think when we're guessing here? But what do you think makes her not want sort of resist hearing things that are negative? If I were to offer you, right, let's say I offered you some water right now, and you said, no, I don't want it. Why would you not want the water? Because I'm not thirsty. Because you're not thirsty. And you're not thirsty, which means water is not going to be very what, helpful to you right now. But maybe you're hungry, and maybe in the back of your mind, you're wishing, I wish Muriel would offer me a cookie or something or something to eat, because what I really need is something to eat, not something to drink. That would be helpful to me. And so I think we have to be careful of making assumptions as to why somebody receives something or not. What I'm hearing

25:31is potentially, right, keep going back to this word help. This would be a question. In what way, and I don't know, in what way is framing the conversation from a, here's everything that we're doing wrong, hopeful to her. And I'm not saying that we should never say, here's what's going wrong. I'm just saying in this situation, what you're trying to do is be helpful to her, is that framing, supporting the Kate is here to be hopeful to this person, or is it working against it? Yeah, I think the latter. What's unclear to me, and I'm not sure if it's clear to you, so this is a question is, what would be helpful to her from her perspective? I think it would be helpful to just come with a solution and say, I'm going to drive this very consistently across the team. In the back of my mind, I think all the time, this is actually your work.

26:31I'm supposed to help you. I'm not supposed to do your work. So her definition of help might be just do it. Just do it. And your definition of help might be, I'm going to give you all the capabilities so that you can run. And maybe her definition is like, no, no, I don't want to run. I need you to run. That's what would be helpful. But when you get to the end, let me be the one on the podium, perhaps. And I don't know, maybe, but I think it's worth exploring more than how do I found out what's playing around with that? How do you think you could find out given what you've experienced so far or if you had a different boss, how would you find out? Many times she actually told me, you know, this other leader always tells his reports, don't come to me with problems, come to me with solutions. I just want to see solutions. And she told me that quite often, which

27:34actually could hint at the fact that you might be right in this scenario, that she wants me to help her in this terms to her means I am just driving this into the work. Yeah. And look, I don't know if I'm right. It doesn't really matter if I'm right. I think the point here is you're trying to be helpful to someone. You haven't even really committed to whether it's what you want to do or not. We're going to get there without fully understanding what it is that you're signing up for. What it is that's helpful to them, because being helpful to someone is based on what's helpful to them, not what's helpful to you. You've got to understand it from their perspective. What is helpful to them? That's such a deep inside. Yes. And I don't know what that is. Again, she's not sitting here with us. Yeah. But what I sense is if you continue to look at it from the perspective of what would be helpful to you, Kate, or what was helpful maybe in other contexts with other bosses,

28:39you're going to sort of continue to be throwing things up at the wall with it potentially not sticking. So the question really is what would be helpful to her from her perspective? And once you know that, is that what you want to do? That's a whole separate thing. That's right. But we got to figure out first, what is it before you decide that? Because if you decide that, you're doing it without really knowing. So one way to figure it out is of course to talk to her, to really find out how she thinks I should or could help her. I mean, I think we could pull back a little bit, right? Based on the conversations you said you've had in the past, my sense is when you narrow it in to the actual work, you know, the deliverables that you have, then it kind of gets mucked up in the deliverables. I'll be honest with you, like if anybody asked me, Muriel, what's helpful to you? It

29:40doesn't matter if we're talking about, you know, planning the weekend versus working on a presentation for work or going on vacation. What is helpful to me is pretty consistent. Okay. Most people have themes around what they consider helpful to them. What they see as like, this is always what's helpful to me. This is always what makes me, you know, feel more confident or more secure in what's happening. So I want to sort of imagine if you zoomed out a little bit away from the specific deliverables. Okay. There's a couple of ways you can find that information. One is have a conversation with her, which we could talk about how to do that. The other is you've been around her for a year. So what have you picked up without narrative? Just like, huh, when I have done this, I find that she's accepting of it. What did I do? Is there a pattern there? How do other people deal with her? And where is that

30:43effective? What can I learn from that? What are some of the things that she has said or not said that indicate to me that that's something that she really values in anyone who is being supportive of her or who is helping her? So there's a bit of zooming out of what are those operating principles and support of being hopeful to her. And then from there, how do I apply that to this work? So I think we need to sort of pull it back a couple of layers and operate with what we do know rather than what we don't know. And so what is it that you do know? Because again, I'm not saying that the way she's going about doing things is best practices or like ideal manager. I'm not. I'm just saying you've got to see the reality for what it is. What would it take from you to adapt to that so that you're aligned with the role of being hopeful to her? So my question is you've approached

31:44the conversation. It sounds like with her from a place of this is what happened. Here's what doesn't work. Okay. What you have heard from her, it sounds like is bring solutions to me. Don't bring me problems. Correct. So if you were to approach the help me help you conversation from a here's the solution, not the problem. What could that sound like? That's a good question because the only thing that comes to my mind right now is I just want to tell her that you know, in my world helping her doesn't mean that I do the entire that I do her work, that that's what comes to my mind but I know I assume I can't really tell her that but you're you're resisting what you're assuming she's going to say. You know what I mean? Like your resistance has already gone up because you're assuming that's what she actually thinks. We don't know that's the problem right now. But I can't ask her that. I can't ask her that directly.

32:48You can't ask her that directly so how could you go about it to try to confirm whether that's the case or not? Yeah that's a good question. I mean I have to find out indirectly the best thing would be to hear from others that she talked to but maybe that could be one way. Are there others in your organization that you see who work effectively with her? Perhaps but I'm the senior one, the most senior one. There are others in the team that might actually be working effectively with her but it's not the same type of partnership. Right. So this is the thing right you're the first person at this level of seniority that she has on the team. Yes. Okay. So in a sense she is managing you the way she has managed everyone else. Oh yes. Okay. That informs us. So you can look at that and I think you have a sense of like okay I see what that dynamic looks like. It's not necessarily personal. It's more around the role she's not used to working with somebody

33:55this senior. So the question becomes somebody who is at this level. How can they be helpful to her? And what you're sensing is I could do what the more junior people are doing but I don't want to do that nor do I think that that's what this role should be doing. Right. And you're hearing from her I just want solutions. Right. I don't want problems. So in what way have you presented? Here's how I'm going to execute. Here's the 10 things that how I'm going to support you. Here's exactly what it looks like and then get a reaction from her as to whether that works or not. So we talked about goals. We articulated my goals for the year and you know on that list we also negotiated or agreed on okay some things that could help her at the entire team to really build that organization. So some of these things are already really spelled out in the goals.

34:57I remember the goals are the what? Yes. We're talking about the how. The how are things like how are decisions made? That's brilliant. How are we keeping each other informed? Yeah that's brilliant. How engaged is she when she says copy me on every email you're interpreting it as oh she's in my business because she doesn't trust me or what not she's not empowering she doesn't want to empower me. She might be like no it helps me it helps me keep on track of everything. I don't know it could be one or the other but it's best to put that on the table to understand it so that you know what you're dealing with you know if I said to you hey Kate like copy me on every email not because there's anything wrong with you but more because it's the way that I can stay on track with things or else I'm gonna forget and if I'm not on that email I'm gonna wake up in the middle of the night wondering did I forget something or why not so could you do that because that would be helpful to me. Yeah that will be different that would be different. The issue is she doesn't

36:00have you know doesn't sound like she has a capacity or has been able to or has not thought about articulating it in that way so she's not here I can't coach her on that but in what way could you find out from her the specifics of the how how she likes to work which I actually think this is about or a piece of it how she likes to work regardless of whether that's the way you like to work or whether it's again best practice or not in what way could you find out what her preferences are I could observe how she does things with others in the team how she works with maybe her peers even that so we are at the more senior level I could come with a proposal and say hey we have this what we have agreed on me doing this how about I work on that and then you know we agree

37:02on the how so I I come with a proposal and I describe to her you know how we work on that and then I would you know wait for her feedback and see whether that is what she likes or whether she she perverses a different way yeah I mean look I think that is certainly one approach what it sounds like is you're going to have to drive this if you want to try to get some level of alignment here right and so being able to point out hey I feel like we are aligned on where we're going and the goals and you can own it where I'm feeling some dissonance where I'm feeling like I'm not necessarily sure to use her words I'm not necessarily sure if I'm being hopeful to you being hopeful in the way that I approach this work the execution of it vis-a-vis you and so here's what I think will be helpful to you based on what I've seen and what I've heard but could you tell me

38:02yes or no you know and you can be detailed right I know you want me to come with solutions but not so much when I'm still processing or pointing out the problems is that your preference and if so what makes that your preference you know and you can think about it in terms of categories how she likes to be communicated to what does she want to stay informed on how her decisions made from her perspective what's her preference around how she handles conflict yeah what about relationships outside of the media how does she like those managed right and understand those now does that mean that you have to then say okay I can do it we have to get to that question that's really really helpful because while you're talking I say yes that's right but that will cost me a lot of time I'm probably now thinking I'm probably the one that just runs with things

39:08and just focuses on on the what and you know just getting results I'm thinking yeah if I need to bring her along you know it might be that the way she works it's very detailed but Kate this is also why it's important to understand what's behind the ask but even assuming that she says because that helps me and you know I'm just genuinely want to be up to date and say this helps me this really helps me that that's okay but then I'm thinking look that will cost me a lot of time and so forget about you know all the results but until you understand what it is that's actually helpful to her and why write some context so let's say she comes back and says yeah see seeing me is very helpful and then you say I'm happy to do it help me understand what it is that's helpful about that to you oh well it keeps me from forgetting things that's how it's helpful for me that then enables you to say oh okay well here's another way that I can make sure that you don't

40:14forget about things why don't I give you a daily digest or a weekly update but until you understand what the underlying need is that she's trying to solve for in terms of you helping her you're not going to be able to address it in other ways that are helpful to you yep I understand we'll be right back after this every business is asking the same question how do we make AI work for us the possibilities are endless and guessing is too risky but sitting on the sidelines is not an option because one thing is almost certain your competitors are already making their move no more waiting with net suite by Oracle you can put AI to work today net suite is the number one AI cloud ERP trusted by over 43,000 businesses it's a unified suite that brings your financials inventory commerce HR and CRM into a single source of truth that connected data is what makes your AI

41:16smarter so it doesn't just guess it knows intelligently automates routine tasks delivers actionable insights helps you cut costs and make fast AI powered decisions with confidence you've got total flexibility now with net suite AI connector you can use the AI of your choice to connect to your actual business data and ask every question you ever had from key customers to cash on hand to inventory trends plus automate those tires and manual processes let's see your competitor do if i had needed this product it's what i use if your revenues are at least in seven figures get our free business guide demystifying AI at net suite dot com slash muriel the guide is free to you at net suite dot com slash muriel net suite dot com slash muriel by this point in the conversation case has been able to clarify for herself a bit more why she feels frustrated by

42:16the relationship she has with her boss offering someone a glass of water who isn't thirsty is a helpful analogy the definition of what is helpful truly comes down to the individual so without better understanding their needs it could be hard to deliver on these expectations once Kate has reached clarity on where her boss really wants from her only then can she begin the next round of reflection around whether that is a good fit for her only then can she really start thinking through what she is and isn't willing to do it can be a bit of a process to understand what the non-negotiables might be on either side of the table but it's a process worth going through so we move the conversation next to looking ahead if Kate gets more clarity on what is helpful to her boss how would she then go about making choices for herself it just makes me think about myself and how I operate right so I'm not sure I'm the best then set up to actually helper you know I'm

43:22somebody that again runs and brings results and really builds things being in charge but not you know catering to somebody else's needs I need to reflect on that and you know what comes to my mind is I'm actually pretty sure that she wants me to do all the work this is her work I'm not gonna do her work because I'm not you know in that position but this thought really kind of gets me stuck that tells me that there must be some hidden blocker why what I not do that why would you not do what to do all the work for her it's just my perspective of course let me reframe the question for you a little bit why would you I'm agnostic one way or the other so I would ask you like in a world let's say you know two weeks from now we were to talk and you're like Muriel you know what I'm gonna do it I understand what she needs I still think

44:26it's a hypothesis that has to be validated or misvalidated around whether what she needs is for you to do all the work so that's step number one and we're not gonna get we would need a follow-up for you to go prove out that hypothesis okay so that's hypothesis number one but let's say it bears out to be true and it is that you know to be helpful to my manager I have to pretty much do everything okay and let's say upon reflection you come back to our coaching and you say this is what it is and I have decided I am gonna do that and here's why enthusiastically here is my why what would be your why what would be your reason why you would do it because the what would be fun it would be fun but I cannot do it in splendid isolation I mean I need to do it together with others and I need to do it with you know together with the team with my peers and before we move

45:30into the butts right let's stick with the why you would follow that path I hear you your you has crystal clear the why not why you wouldn't I want to hear about the wise and if there are any right I think it will be fun it would be fun the goal excites you and motivates you hmm yes why else would you do it her way which means you could be in this role I'm gonna throw one out there you said hey I really love the culture of this organization yeah so it would fulfill me to still be here right I love it here I might have to deal with this hurricane but I love the warm weather of the island and the beach and the water so I'm gonna deal with the hurricanes so that I can still have the warm weather and the right we could go through the list but I think it's worth going through what would be your why because I do think it's not whether you should

46:35or not I think the only reason that would drive you to do this because you brought it up you said what is my blocker of why I wouldn't do this the blocker is that you haven't found a why you haven't found a why to do it that's the blocker your focus just on the why not is one better than the other no you just have to choose which one you want to hold which trade off is of highest priority to you and I can't tell you that you're the one who has to live with that so as long as your why is bigger than your why not that's what will move you in one direction but if your why you shouldn't do it is bigger than the why that you should then you're gonna move in that direction yeah so I think you need to just have clear on what the direction is that's hypothesis number one and then move on to the second hypothesis which is around what are my why's why I should and why I shouldn't it's a trade off right which ones are gonna lead me

47:41I never thought of the why I always thought of the why not you're right and maybe in your past you haven't had to because they so cleanly aligned there was no reason to think about it what this is bringing up maybe the situation now is like oh my gosh no there's divergence here oh okay I have to be and you know I have to be sort of clear about it it's magical when you don't even have to think about it because it means it doesn't mean that the why's not there it's just that your why's and your why not's like aligned very well you know that's great but there's a lot of times in life in leadership where they're not aligned and so then we have to as you said be reflective but I want you to be reflective eyes wide open yeah how does that make you feel around your assessment of I must be blocked yeah I just realized that I never I never really thought of why and I always thought of the why not and so that would be interesting by itself just to understand okay what is it why was I you know drawn to the why not you know without thinking

48:48about the why ever ever and yet when you ask the question why it was just like so immediate for me to think well because it will be fun I didn't have even to think too long about it yeah and that opens perspectives now the question is how to bring it to her how to operationalize this yeah and verify the assumptions that as you say this is still an hypothesis right yeah and so it's really like how then to find out and how to bring it to her yeah I mean I think you came up with some ideas earlier that are tactical right and I would suggest that you follow through I think one is I would recommend that you without expectation around how she might respond that you make the implicit explicit which is my sense my experience as Kate were very aligned on the goals right where

49:49we're going I want to make sure that the next year is as hopeful as possible to you right so it's continuing in this theme of hopeful as possible I want to make sure that I'm doing that so here's what I've observed around what's helpful to you but just tell me whether that is yes or no or something different and then as you go through it it allows the follow question help me understand what is it about that that's helpful to you we don't know where it's going to go right now because you haven't taken that approach I can't guarantee it's going to work but it's different than the approach that you've taken so there's a bit of you know what are the rules of engagement here around how to manage her you know how to manage up to her given how she leads and manages which I understand is not your preference nor what you're used to but once you can understand what those rules of it you can't determine whether you want to engage with certain rules of engagement if you

50:49don't understand what the rules are you're not making a choice then that's right then you can make a choice if it's like oh my god this is like my worst nightmare of rules of engagement you can then decide oh is the fun of the deliverable does that outweigh the lack of fun in these rules of engagement I don't know could be but it's not always going to perfectly line up you know I do a lot of things that like you know I'm training for a high rocks right now wow it's going to be a lot of fun when I'm done but the trade off of the pain that I am dealing with in the training but you know if I want that fun feeling of accomplishment at the end and then I have some people I know who are like I'm good I don't need that fun like the pain outweighs it I'd rather not do it and that's fine that's choice and that's what I want you to have here yeah that's really

51:50powerful way to rethink about this whole situation so tell me where you are now versus where you were at the beginning of our conversation wow yeah I feel lifted you just expanded my way of looking at this and you know when I came into the call I was literally stuck in a very very narrow place in my mind so now I can think of options I really don't feel as stuck as I was in the beginning of the conversation what is the one thing that you're committing to as a next step that you think will keep you moving forward from this more expanded perspective of looking at the situation what do you commit to as a next step I think the first question is really to verify the hypothesis of what does help mean to her and really trying to find out you know what

52:52does it mean and is it really like what I'm thinking that yeah you just do my work and that's that's what it means to me and let's find out that will be the first thing to tackle and once I found out then then the next thing will be well if that is the case why would I do that or why would I not do with that yeah okay so guess what Kate I don't think you're stuck anymore because you have a step forward so whenever we can take a step forward we're not stuck we're moving we're moving okay yeah do your little experiment to prove or misprove the hypothesis and then let let's know how it goes okay let me know how it goes thank you so much yeah thank you when charting a path for success in any role it can be just as much about understanding the personalities and goals of railing you as it is about understanding the quote unquote work to be done the higher you go the more the work

53:58is about understanding guiding motivating and adapting to people not just finishing projects or hidden KPIs that involves work work around communication understanding what others want and need and also being more specific about what you want and need differences will bubble to the surface but the good news is those differences can be a source of strength when leveraged correctly a clearly defined shared goal is a good starting place it won't always be easy and there will always be trade-offs so it's important to remember sometimes we have to deal with the hurricanes to get to those truly magical beach days that's it for today come back in two weeks for a new coaching real leaders ask Muriel anything episode if you want me to coach you through an issue or have a question you want answered head on over to coachingrealleaders.com and let me know and if

54:59you want to unpack the episodes from coaching real leaders you can join me at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com where I host live discussions about each coaching session you hear on this show you can also follow me on LinkedIn at Muriel Wilkins and on Instagram at coach Muriel Wilkins a reminder that if you love these coaching conversations it would mean the world to me if you would go to Apple Spotify or wherever you listen to subscribe to the show and leave a five star review thank you to my producer Mary Do sound editor Nick Crinco music composer Brian Campbell and my chief of staff Emily Sofa much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you are listeners who share in their journeys I'm Muriel Wilkins until next time be well