How Do I Know If My Husband Is Abusive? – Coach Jo’s Story

If you’re wondering, “How do I know if my husband is abusive?” You’re not alone. Hearing the stories of other women can help you know what to do next. Coach Jo is a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coach who had to ask herself that question in two different marriages.

f you relate with her experience learn about Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions here.

Your Husband Is Abusive If His Exploitative Materials Use = Coercion

Women have the right to information about their partner’s behaviors before choosing to be intimately involved and committed to him. A man is not giving his partner the ability to make informed consent if he withholds information about exploitative materials use.

This is called coercion and it is abusive.

An appropriate conversation would include her partner disclosing the full truth his use and other behaviors prior to intimate contact.

Often, women find that they are in a relationship for several months or years with a user before discovering his secret behaviors.

He’s Abusive If He’s Using Psychological Control Tactics

Gaslighting, lying, and manipulation are all psychologically abusive tactics. Psychological abuse differs from emotional abuse in that it is intended to make the victim question her own reality.

Often, psychological abusers will take the stance that they “didn’t do it intentionally” or that it “wasn’t calculated.” Perhaps they didn’t intend for their partner to become so depressed from their abuse that she fantasizes about suicide every day…. or perhaps they didn’t intend for their partner to become so unsure of her reality that she truly wonders if she is insane… but they were intentionally choosing to protect their acting-out behaviors by not being honest and forthright.

Every abuser is completely accountable for their every word and action. The consequences on victims can be overwhelmingly tragic and abusers must face the reality that even if it wasn’t “calculated”, it was still intentional.

Exploitative Material Use is Emotionally Abusive

Betrayed women suffer from Betrayal Trauma. Betrayal Trauma is a symptom of abuse, not addiction. Betrayal in and of itself is emotionally abusive. It creates feelings of immense anguish, rejection, terror, and grief. At BTR, we understand that it’s not “just pornography”. We understand that your world is crashing down around you. We’re here for you.

Transcript: How Do I Know If My Husband Is Abusive?

Anne: I’m so excited to have coach Jo on today’s episode. She’s one of our amazing BTR coaches. All of the coaches here at BTR have been through this and are now able to live free through strategy and boundaries. I’m so passionate about only having women who have been through this on our team.

Jo facilitates Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions and also Betrayal Trauma Recovery Individual Sessions here at BTR. She’s incredible. And I’m so grateful to have her.

How To Tell If My Husband Is Abusive

Anne: Coach Jo was married to two different abusers. Let’s start with the first one. Did you recognize that he was an abuser at first?

Coach Jo: I didn’t have a clear understanding of what abuse was before we were married. Then pretty quickly it became apparent that there was something wrong, and that it wasn’t safe. I didn’t have the words for that initially, but it became clear very very quickly. It started on the honeymoon.

The second night of the honeymoon he left me in the hotel room for a couple of hours. I had no idea where he had gone. This is pre cell phone. I was distraught and wondering what the heck had happened and what I had gotten myself into.

Is My Husband Emotionally Abusive?

Anne: At the beginning it’s hard to know the difference between emotional abuse vs. normal conflict. What happened after this?

Coach Jo: There were explosions at the house, a lot of angry outbursts, a lot of name calling, a lot of breaking things. I had no idea what to do. Then we went on a trip together and got lost in the middle of the night. We were circling around looking for our exit or the connecting road, this was before GPS.

He was cussing and screaming and driving like a maniac. Every time we went over an overpass, he would threaten to drive off the overpass. This went on for probably a good hour and a half. And by the time we reached our destination, I locked myself in the bathroom and couldn’t move. There was 20 years of that kind of behavior. We have five children together.

Anne: How did you describe his behavior when you didn’t know it was abuse?

Coach Jo: I told one relative and she said communicate better, try not to trigger him, walk on eggshells around him. It never even occurred to me to ask myself, is my husband abusive?

I did bring it to clergy. Of course my husband was in the room too, and the response that I got was, “Has he hit you?” And the answer was no. Then he said, “So what’s the problem?”

Seeking Help & Not Understanding That My Husband Is Abusive

Anne: At BTR, we are interfaith, but also inter-paradigm. In fact we have women who work here from various different faiths, also who are agnostic. Wherever a client is, is where we meet them. Would you mind sharing what your specific faith is?

Coach Jo: I am Catholic, this was the only priest that I have encountered personally that had that kind of an attitude .

Anne: This particular priest says, what’s the problem? did you try to get help from anyone else during this time?

Coach Jo: About year six we went to couples therapy and did individual therapy.

https://youtu.be/aljnmnAvdqc

Anne: So many women think that couple therapy was going to be the solution. So finally, if he agrees to it, they’re really excited about it and then surprised and so devastated to realize that it makes it worse.

Coach Jo: I kept thinking he doesn’t understand surely he doesn’t understand. Surely, he just doesn’t know a better way. I focused my energy on trying to fix him so couples therapy was my idea.

Anne: Did you know about use with him or affairs or prostitutes or anything?

Is My Husband Abusive? Coercion & Betrayal

Coach Jo: Later on, I really understood what BTR talks about, coercion. The idea that you are not a whole being and a whole person. That you are there for somebody else’s gratification.

You have a person receiving gratification from the humiliation and degradation of another person. Even if you don’t have proof positive that they’re watching it, It will be very apparent in the way that they treat you, the way they look at and speak to other women as well. Really what it came down to was he did not have respect for me. He had no respect for women. He did coercion, if I would not comply with his wishes, he threatened to kill himself.

I found out he had slept with women in our church congregation, in the neighborhood and at the school. It was precarious and degrading not to know. I still didn’t know if my husband was abusive. I didn’t have words or definitions for it.

Coach Jo: I did file for divorce ultimately. Then it was a long, hard road.

Anne: Like you were saying before we recorded, your parents.

Family Choosing His Side When My Husband Is Abusive

Coach Jo: They ended up siding with my first husband.

Anne: Throughout the separation and divorce, you were estranged from your mom and dad. I’m so sorry. That’s so hard.

Coach Jo: If I had to rate traumas, that’s probably not a good idea, I would say that the trauma from that probably hit 10 times worse.

Anne: I’m so sorry. That’s so hard.

Second Marriage: Figuring Out If My Husband Is Abusive

Anne: You mentioned to me before we started recording that the second marriage was completely different. Really quick, before you share, at the very beginning of my marriage, I made friends with someone who had been punched.

Her husband didn’t help around the house. I think he was gone a lot of the time. I said to her, something is wrong. She said to me, “Oh, your husband is amazing. He’s so great, he comes to church, he’s always helping people out. Like, no, he’s not abusive. You don’t have to worry.”

Comparing her abuser, who was overtly abusive, in contrast to what I experienced. The gaslighting, lying, manipulation, and use was so different. She couldn’t recognize it, I also couldn’t, but I knew something was very wrong. I didn’t know even to ask if my husband is abusive.

Is My Husband Abusive? Early Red Flags

Anne: I’m not sure if that’s what’s coming when it comes to your story, but let’s start with your second marriage. So three and a half years later, you meet your second husband. Can you talk about when you first met him.

Coach Jo: , I don’t think I had my sea legs under me from the first marriage. I felt like I failed at the first marriage. There was an eagerness to get it right, to do it again, to do it better. I asked all the right questions.

I looked for all the flags, but what I didn’t understand is you don’t ask the person your questions. You ask the question and you observe the answer.

Anne: I did the same thing, I asked all the right questions. And yes, I didn’t give it enough time to observe. What I was observing was very disturbing, but I would talk to him about it and he would give me the right answers. Is that what happened to you too?

Coach Jo: Yes. It was like a test. He knew the right answers. The answers I wanted to hear. He hid who he was and what the agenda was. I didn’t find that out until after the honeymoon

Is My Husband Abusive? Does He Use expoitative material?

Anne: So you’re experiencing coercion. Again, just like you did in the first marriage in this second marriage. He’s also using secretly and lying to you. But in the second one, you do find out that he’s using.

Coach Jo: Yeah, he had joined a men’s program for addicts/abusers.

Anne: Addicts. Did he do this on his own, or were you kind of like, hey, you should try this?

Coach Jo: I did all the research. I thought, I have to make this work. I found everything. We had a couple’s therapist. Not helpful. Zero out of five stars, it was during COVID. I kept thinking that maybe something would change if I just hung on tight. I say that my first husband was abuse by fire. The second was abuse by ice. So he would withdraw and ignore your presence. He would tell you what you were feeling, but all of it, very calm, very metered, nothing to see here.

He wanted me to function in certain roles as a companion for activities to show up and be the couple. I was useful for that. But then when I wanted to take up space and be something other than the role, it wasn’t okay. I was too much. It was obvious that it was a pain if I were me instead of the role. It took me a long time to identify that I was experiencing abuse from my husband.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery & Finding Support

Anne: Because this wasn’t a relationship, to him it was a show or something?

Coach Jo: It was functional. There was an image. If I was upholding the image, then that was fine. If I was asking for something more, if I was asking for something relational, there was no room for that. Early one morning we were talking. It wasn’t a conflict, he was talking about how I looked or how I presented. He said he wanted to pour acid on my face and then sloughed it off as a joke, and I was horrified.

It was through a conversation with my friend who said, listen, this is a big deal and you can’t ignore this. You really need to speak with these women over at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. They can help you, BTR was a game changer for me because it gave me language. Somebody in Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions said “wife appliance”. That’s it, that’s what I am. I’m a “wife appliance.” That term really resonated with me.

Joining BTR and getting coaching was what what I needed BTR said the user is responsible for their own actions. Not just the viewing of it, but the way they treat their spouse and the other individuals in their life as a result of the use. And it is not my responsibility to make it comfortable for the abuser so that they can stop their behaviors. The responsibility lies solely with the abusive husband and not the victim.

Traditional Therapy Enabled My Husband’s Emotional Abuse

Anne: There are so many factors in how long it will take to recover from your husband’s emotional abuse. One of those factors is where you go for help. How was that different than the other program? that you were in or the therapy you were going to?

Coach Jo: Addiction therapy does not give you the same language. It doesn’t give you the same solution. In addiction therapy you’re told to communicate better, to provide a safe environment. You check in and you talk about your feelings and you talk about what’s bothering you and you talk about what you need.

In couples therapy you’re supposed to communicate better. When you’re communicating with an abuser, anything you say is used against you. Any information that you give is used to maintain that power and control. So it’s very, very high risk for the spouse

Anne: The emotional abuser exploits your emotions and the things that you tell them for their own purposes. It’s never resolving something between you. He’s just excited that you’re giving him information that he can use to exploit you. So it’s extremely dangerous to be vulnerable with an emotional abuser.

I can’t figure out why therapists haven’t figured this out yet. It’s probably because they don’t have any other tools. They just think communication is always good. Also, they don’t think of him as exploiting the emotion. They think, well, obviously when she tells him how hurt she is, that will make a difference. They don’t realize that’s not what has happened in the past, and it’s certainly not what’s going to happen in the future.

My Husband Is Abusive Because He Uses These Deceptive Tactics

Anne: Therapists haven’t figured this out yet because abusers lie. They say they care about the relationship, about the family and about us when they don’t. They’re not going to walk right into a therapist and say, I actually don’t like my wife. As well as, I want to have it with other people.

Coach Jo: I’m sorry, I’m laughing because I can’t picture that ever happening. At least the playing field would be level, right? That you can make an informed decision. As painful as it would be, it would give you enough information to make a decision in your best interest.

Anne: Because it’s exploitative, they have a reason to lie. If they weren’t getting something from you, maybe meals, maybe childcare, and physical stuff. If they weren’t getting something, then they probably wouldn’t mind saying, “Hey, you know what? I’m done. I’m going to go have it with other people.” But they need to keep their exploitative privilege intact. And that is why they’re not willing to be honest. Because they’re going to lose something if they’re honest.

Coach Jo: I think that’s a difficult thing to come to terms with, the reality of, Hey, hold on a second. None of this was in my best interest. It was difficult to see it as intentional. That’s the main difference that I found, at least on a practical boots on the ground level at Betrayal Trauma Recovery.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery Helped Me Know If My Husband Is Abusive

Coach Jo: You weren’t required to become vulnerable to your spouse in order to solve the problem. That is the beauty of BTR. It provides a space where you’re able to speak the truth of what’s happening. Without any background noise, without anybody trying to circumvent. What you see, you can duck out of the subterfuge take a minute to breathe and assess what’s happening. Its a space where I can figure out if I’m experiencing abuse from my husband.

Coach Jo: It’s so helpful. If I could wave a magic wand. I would give women in these situations turning the volume down on the abuser’s voice. You could sit back and watch the actions, the attitudes, what’s actually happening and not what’s being said. You can actually assess if your husband is abusive. That would be a huge gift. Betrayal Trauma Recovery does provide that place to pause and assess what’s happening.

Anne: Without any interference from anyone else.

Even though it’s difficult information, it provides a place to process that’s safe. Then you can listen to other women’s stories as well and see that you’re not the only one. And look at the common threads. And it becomes easier to identify when you see it.

Anne: You found BTR in your second marriage, which helped you know that your husband was abusive. You saw the emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. How would it have been different had you found BTR in your first marriage?

The Journey Of Healing

Coach Jo: I think it would have been a game changer. I did not understand the emotional abuse the exists and things of that nature. Even engaging in an individual session or two and just throwing out some of these behaviors and saying, Hey, hold on a second. Is this okay? Is this all right? Without my spouse there. Because up until then, all of the appointments had occurred with him in the room,

Anne: Trying to identify if your husband is abusive with your abuser in the room. That’s so unethical for the therapist doing that. They have no idea what they were doing and it’s so scary.

Coach Jo: Because you can’t say anything. Like how do you speak the truth when you know there’s going to be consequences? So they never have an opportunity to hear the truth of what’s happening.

Anne: Yeah, it’s really scary actually . None of the situation was your fault. People don’t get abuse education and even if you understand it, trying to figure out how to be safe is difficult. Can you also talk about maybe what would have been different had you known about BTR going into your second marriage.

Coach Jo: It would have been a more expanded view of what abuse looks like. And then the converse, what character looks like, what integrity looks like. It’s not what somebody says. It’s what they do. Where their eyes trail, it’s all of the things. BTR really helped me to know if my husband is abusive. Character and integrity show up in every area of somebody’s life. Just being able to bounce that off of somebody.

Understanding My Husband’s Abuse & Setting Boundaries

Coach Jo: I think BTR is the perfect place if you’re dating, maybe not in group sessions, but in individual sessions. It’s a beautiful space to talk about behaviors, attitudes, tone, habits and things like that. Where you can sort these things out with somebody else who gets it. Especially if you are dating after narcissistic abuse. Then take time to investigate and make an informed decision or as informed as you can. The gift of a pause and a little bit of silence makes all the difference in the world.

One of the things that made Betrayal Trauma Recovery different was the focus on the things that I had control over, like setting boundaries. Like what level of risk I wanted to take when I was talking with my husband. How to navigate day to day living and all of the details where the abuse permeates your life.

Anne: Did you find any other resource you went to understood all the different ways that it permeates your life?

Coach Jo: I think that the underlying understanding was that they believed the mask. Truly, he was a good guy. He was just good. Not slick enough to recognize the mistakes he was making. BTR reframed it as well, he’s hitting the bullseye every time.

How is that an accident? How does he happen to say the thing that hurts you the most? Right after you told him that was painful? How does he happen to withhold when you’re having the worst day ever and you’ve got tears running down your face. That’s not an accident. But all the other programs looked at it like, oh it’s just goofy, doesn’t mean any of it.

The Importance Of Language & Support

Coach Jo: BTR looked at it and went, no, hold on a second. You can’t hit the mark right on that many times accidentally. It doesn’t work that way. And if you step back and look at it, it makes total sense. But you have to step back and look at it from a different angle. And it’s not my job to figure out why, but BTR helped me to say, Hey, what’s happening, what does it feel like? What does it look like? And then what do you want to do? It gave me choices.

Anne: I think one of the things that other professionals are maybe afraid of is the consequences of calling it abuse. And BTR is not afraid. We’re not pro divorce, we’re definitely pro safety, and pro safety means we’re not afraid of looking it right in the eye and calling it what it is. Whereas I think other people are like, if I say that to him, it might hurt his feelings. Or it might make him angry, or the marriage might fall apart, or this or that. And BTR is not afraid of the consequences of truth.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery wants you to figure out if your husband is abusive.

Who Pays The Price Of My Husband’s Abuse

Coach Jo: The way I look at it is, who’s paying the price tag for these behaviors. Everybody’s okay with the wife paying the price tag for the behaviors, but nobody wants to put it on the perpetrator. That is a huge shift which is, hold on a second. I pay the price tags for my actions and you need to pay them for yours.

Anne: Why do you think that is? Why do you think the typical professional in this doesn’t mind having the woman pay the price tag, but they really have a hard time with the man paying it?

Coach Jo: There’s an image that’s maintained of the man being just a hapless victim of his own actions. Which is kind of insulting, quite frankly.

Anne: Insulting to him, you mean?

Coach Jo: Absolutely, but I’m looking at somebody that makes the same choice 10, 12, 20, 100 times in a row, and it’s a conscious decision. He actually has to make an effort to make these choices. He’s got free will and he’s exercising it. Why can’t we look at that and say, all right. Now, what are we going to do?

Oh, he’s a big, goofy, nice guy who doesn’t really understand what he’s doing. Give him a break. Just be nicer. Just communicate better. He’ll get it eventually that’s the prevailing paradigm.

Anne: Which only benefits him. It doesn’t benefit the victim at all.

Decisions After Finding Safety From An Abusive Husband

Anne: So after you had such success and healing through BTR, you decided that you wanted to be a BTR coach. Can you talk more about why you made that decision?

Coach Jo: It’s just such a beautiful community to be a part of. Seeing women grow, become strong, Make decisions that will benefit them and their families moving forward.

I absolutely loved when I was in group. Women dream again and dreaming in myself something different for my life that may or may not include marriage. That may or may not include dating, there was a sense of freedom. To be a part of that was just so special. And also helping women through the rough times.

Sitting with them, to be a comfort and to give language where none existed before. And then maybe help them focus their hope towards a brighter future. And just seeing that happen was just so beautiful. The desire to be a part of that was overwhelming.

Anne: We’re so grateful to have you. You’re such an important part of our team.

Combining Professional Skills With Coaching

Anne: Coach Jo had an amazing career that she could have continued. She decided to stop and do this because she wanted her career and her work life to be more fulfilling. You have all these amazing skills that you bring to the table when you coach at Betrayal Trauma Recovery.

Coach Jo: Yeah. BTR fit with everything that I have loved in my professional career with finance. So the additional training that I’ve been able to take as a BTR coach for divorce. Some in finance and with some of the legalities were right in my wheelhouse.

Then combining that with being able to walk with women. As they go through these just courageous journeys In dealing with the abuse and transforming through all of it. It’s a fulfilling culmination of putting all the skills to good use to help women.

The Value Of Personal Abuse Experience

Anne: One of the things I think is so important with abuse coaching is having someone who has experience, personal experience. All of the coaches here at BTR have been through this. They’ve all experienced this type of abuse, and then they also have the training so they know what it feels like to have their husband cheat on them. So we all have experience with deciding if we should stay married after infidelity.

They know what it feels like to tell people and not get help. All of our coaches here really understand it on a visceral level. But also educated, all of us at BTR have been through the harrowing adventure that is healing from betrayal trauma.

Helping Women Through Healing

Anne: Can you talk about helping women through that as a coach? Because I think that’s another thing that perhaps influencers or therapists might give people. The impression that oh, as soon as you change this, things will go really fast for you. You’ll be fine kind of a thing.

I’m just thinking of a few influencers that I know. They have these fix your marriage workshops. They’re like six classes, each class is a half hour or so. It’s the static thing online. You check off some boxes. Like, did you tell him how you feel? Great. Box checked. Did you do this? Check. As if there’s some magic thing that can solve all these problems quickly. Or he stopped using. Yay. Check. It’s over with.

Coach Jo: That’s so scary

Anne: It’s so scary.

The Reality Of The Healing Process when Your Husband Is Abusive

Anne: I know this is a journey. It’s hard for me to say that because I want to give women hope that safety is possible. Also to have realistic expectations. A friend was over at my house the other night and she was feeling really terrible. She’s about to file for divorce and she is just not feeling great.

I said to her, I promise you’re going to feel better in, and then I paused and I said, are you ready for me to tell you how long? I said, definitely. At least three years. It’s like the most awful thing to say to someone. But it also kind of liberates you to know I’m not weird. I’m not crazy. There’s nothing wrong with me, that it’s taking a while for me to extricate myself from this nightmare. Because it’s a nightmare.

Coach Jo: Yeah, absolutely And the idea is not that, you go through purgatory for three years and all of a sudden you’ve arrived. It is a process. It’s like a snowball rolling downhill over time. Incrementally, you’re adding on to your confidence, belief in yourself, knowledge, and skills to be out in the world. You’re building a life. That takes time. It’s a beautiful incremental step by step process and being a part of Betrayal Trauma Recovery while you’re going through that process.

The Importance Of Community & Vision

Coach Jo: BTR provides language, provides support in the form of community. And other women who are going through it with you. It also provides vision. You see they’ve been here for two years and they’re finally wrapping up their divorce. That healing that has taken place along the way, you’re a witness. Even if that’s not where you’re at on your path, it does show you that a different future is possible. It’s a baby step process.

It’s beautiful as a coach to be able to have the client look in the rear view mirror and see how far they’ve come. I think that’s one of the greatest gifts of coaching. You know, you’re going through the hard stuff, but it’s also being able to remind somebody. Remember when we started out back here and look how far you’ve come.

Anne: Everybody’s path is different it doesn’t have to include divorce. Regardless of what you choose and where your path leads you, BTR can help you on that path.

Encouragement When Your Experiencing aBuse in Your marriage

Anne: If someone is listening and this is the first episode they’ve ever heard of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast and they’re thinking, I’m not sure my husband is abusive. This sounds kind of extreme. I don’t know. Maybe I should try couple therapy first. What would you say to them?

Coach Jo: Check your gut because there’s a reason why you’re listening. Do an inner inventory. Be really honest, it’s scary at first. Then, bring in points of view from women who have gone through it. Give BTR a shot. Nobody at BTR is going to push you anywhere you don’t want to go. No Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coach is going to try and direct you somewhere . You’re going to determine your path, your pace.

Anne: I had a hard time considering it was abuse. It was emotional and psychological abuse and coercion that I was dealing with. I didn’t want that to be the case because I didn’t want the consequences of it. Sometimes people wonder, if I get educated about abuse, am I going to see it where it isn’t?

That’s like saying, if you’re a hammer, everything’s a nail. Am I going to say it’s abuse if it’s not that? Women listening whose husbands are not abusive tell me, I didn’t really relate. Abuse education is just abuse education. It doesn’t create abuse when abuse doesn’t exist. As we describe these things, if you relate, that is exactly what’s happening to me. You can know if your husband is abusive. Then you can start making decisions in the light of truth.

Healing From His Abuse Through The Living Free Workshop

Anne: That’s one thing we do really well here, is give women very concrete ways to improve their safety, and they can observe at a safe distance to see what the reality of their situation is, what they really couldn’t see before.

Coach Jo: The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop is excellent at defining what boundaries are, what they look like, and a practical map for how to use them. One of the most important ideas that I did not grasp during the first marriage or the second marriage was that you can’t be perfect enough to stop abuse.

So spinning your wheels, trying to get everything right, keep all the plates spinning. Do it with a smile on your face, don’t react or be harsh. Communicate things that make him feel good about himself or whatever the paradigm is. Can’t do it right enough to fix whatever’s happening with him. You can’t stop his abuse by being more perfect. Identifying that my husband was abusive was just the first step.

Anne: Or even by getting them in the right program. There’s lots of things that would apply there.

Coach Jo: Yeah, say it right, do it right, find the right instructor, the right video.

Anne: Find the right video, therapist, this, or that. It’s crazy, all the things.

Coach Jo: Have my cousin’s husband talk to him, maybe that’ll fix it.

Anne: Exactly.

Coach Jo: The proof is in the pudding. He’s been doing this for years, and people know right and wrong. I think that’s the hardest thing to come to grips with is that this is a conscious decision. Watching what’s happening and looking at that in reality and saying, Hey, hold on a second.

Making Decisions That Create Safety

Coach Jo: This is a conscious decision, and so in turn I have to start making conscious decisions. About my emotional safety, the safety of my family, what does safety look like in my context? The beauty of Betrayal Trauma Recovery is that we’ll walk alongside as you figure it out. Sometimes the spouses do come alongside. So what you were saying before, it doesn’t always end in divorce. A spouse can choose to come alongside and walk that new path.

Anne: Yeah, we have no idea what’s going to happen. I wish we did. I wish there were some guarantees. That’s what we all wanted when we started this journey. It was just something to let us know that we would be okay. And the good news is there’s a way to be okay. There’s a way to heal and away to live a life of peace. There’s a way to thrive. We don’t know exactly how you’re going to apply the principles of safety, but we do know what those principles of safety are.

And that is why I think other programs are dangerous. They assume that if you just educate him a little bit better that he’ll be able to do the right thing, which doesn’t make sense because he knows how to do the right thing. Otherwise, he wouldn’t be able to even act like he knew how to do the right thing. If he didn’t know what the right thing was.

You can learn the truth about Your marriage

Anne: Coach Jo is available to do Betrayal Trauma Recovery Individual Sessions with clients. She also runs several of our group sessions. Attending Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions is a great way to get to know all the coaches. And see which one you jive with, and then do an individual session from there. Our coaches are all incredible. They’re all so knowledgeable. And the most important thing, they’ve all been through it. They all totally understand what you’re going through.

Anne: You’re amazing coach Jo. I love having you on the BTR team. And I’m so glad that we got to talk today on the podcast so the listeners get to know you better. Thank you so much.

Coach Jo: Absolutely, Anne. I appreciate being on the team with you. It’s such a joy.