How I will lead Labour to victory in Scotland: Michael Marra

0:00Hello and welcome to the political party. Today's guest is Michael Marrow, one of the two men standing to be the next leader of the Scottish Labour Party. And Assawa, I'd led the party for the last few years, obviously, is now in the Lords and is a minister in the UK Government, a trade minister. So that leaves a vacancy of the two candidates of Michael Marrow and Joe Fagan and the ballot closes on the 17th of September. The result will be announced on the 19th September. So this is all imminent and it sounds like the campaign has been pretty intense. And this is fascinating talking to Michael. I've wanted to have him on the show for a while because he's a very thoughtful politician, very diligent and really stood out in Holyrood in the last few years for Labour and is well regarded in Scottish politics. And now he is standing to be the next leader of Scottish Labour. And we talk about why, about what he would do differently to an Assawa, what he

1:02would do differently to his opponent, Joe Fagan, and just about his life. And he's led a fascinating life. Worked in Malawi for Oxfam and he has many, many interests, which is always refreshing for a politician. They're into stuff other than politics, which he is. And for all music, film, all sorts of things, even cooking. So he's got a wide range of passions. But it's led to phenomenal life. And that has involved him eventually becoming an MSP and standing for the Labour leadership up in Scotland. So this is a fascinating really introduction to Michael Marrow, what he stands for, and how he got here. The political party returns to the stage in London's glittering West End on the 9th of November with the list Kendall and with West Streeting on the 21st of December go to map4.com for tickets to all of those. And next year I'm on tour across the UK with my new standup show project Tony Moly, which I debuted at the end of the festival. So thank you to everyone who came to that. And I'm going everywhere all across the UK. So it's a big old tour as usual.

2:05So tickets are selling fast for a lot of those dates. Some of them are almost sold out. So don't wait because I want you to be disappointed. So get to map4.com for all your ticketing needs. And now enjoy an hour in the presence of Labour's Michael Marrow. Michael you're standing to be the latest leader of the Scottish Labour Party. It is a heck of a challenge. So first and foremost why haven't you put yourself forward? Well I think I'm the man for the job. There's 17 of us who are eligible and we're not a big group but I am really positive about the opportunity if that's if the members see fit to ask me to do the job. So and it's and of course there's a big sense of duty in it Matt. I've been a member of Labour Party my whole wife. The party has got difficulties clearly and it's a case of you know you step forward you serve to act the service in that regard because there's an awful lot of

3:09work to do. So yeah but yeah I still you know I'm a Gramscian kind of you know optimism of the the well maybe a little bit more pessimistic of the intellect you know it's like you know because I recognise how difficult this job is. So but yeah I'm up for it and you know we'll be really pleased with how the campaign's gone so far. Couple of weeks to go and yeah so hopeful. And the parts of you I mean we're a similar age that you remember when Scottish Labour basically was was master of all its surveyed and not just in in the devolution era at Hollywood but also a UK level where you had a Scottish Prime Minister a Scottish Chancellor you know and then now tied with reform for seats in Hollywood you did a bit better them in terms of vote share but really you know tied in terms of seats do you think is there any party that you can't believe the state that the Labour Party's got itself into ensign Scotland. It's I suppose when you look back over those kind of 25 years I actually just don't think the voter coalition that we used to rely on

4:14exists anymore and I don't just mean that in terms of that they don't vote for the Labour party and the numbers that they they previously did which is obvious it's actually having that the country's completely changed you know people live in different places and you know they do different kinds of jobs and they are they spend a time differently and I think too often you know we kind of hark back to that previous kind of country they just doesn't exist anymore and the reality is that the Labour Party hasn't changed enough to recognise where the country is and that's and you know there is maybe that's partly a kind of a romanticism I think it's holding on to a vision of the past rather than thinking about the future you know the values don't change but the reality the country is just different well that's what I was going to ask is obviously the economy has changed and as you say where people live an industry has changed and the careers that people have and they likely had a getting a house and things like that I wondered if you thought actually what you meant was that the values have changed so you don't think that so is it that Labour still has to be

5:17that the modern centre left party or do you think because some people would say times have changed and therefore the Labour Party needs to be more left wing I think that we have to be yes a centre left party but a broad church you know there will be social democrats socialists are members of our party there always have been I think I hope that there always will be people have different visions of kind of how far they want change to go I believe in a more equal country I've been saying throughout this kind of whole process that I think we've lost a little bit of touch with that kind of understanding about how what we want to achieve so yet a more equal country that works and we can leave it as a legacy for our children that's the that's the kind of the purpose the core purpose and you know we talk about with those kind of core issues of equality, solidarity, you know home, family, you know respect, dignity these are all core values the Labour Party and we believe that they're achieved through work but it's your right things have changed

6:21there's actually there's things that we do even talk about and change you know Scotland has made a big shift from the west to the east in terms of the population dynamic where growth is the shape of the economy and we as a party I don't think reflect on the phone how what that looks like and what the future of the country now is that's really interesting so the population is literally moving from Glasgow to Edinburgh for one of a better phrase yeah yeah so you're seeing a relative population decline particularly in the kind of west the Earshire south west of the country are really significant rate the agent the agent that area is significantly increasing you see the population in the northwest as well and the population the economy at Glasgow is really challenged too I mean I love Glasgow I lived there for five years I had so many best times in my life and brilliant friends but it's a place that is underperforming in terms of its you know contribution to its own economy and more broadly whereas Edinburgh you know it's 30% of the GDP

7:26of the country but only 10% of the population I mean it's an it's an extra the level of GVA from Edinburgh is absolutely a stand-in it's outperforming the rest of the UK in essence you know so it's you know we there is a real shift on going and it has been ongoing for over a decade now and is it that people are literally moving there so there are I think it's more about the population and the relative population changes in terms of decline and immigration so you know they birthrate you know a lot of people coming in to Edinburgh is changing so these things are big big big shifts in that regard there will be a little bit of internal migration I don't think that's the biggest thing you know you know that there is a cultural divide as extreme as any in the UK between Edinburgh and Glasgow I'm not sure that they're all getting on buses and moving across across the country and thinking this is the place for me now no I don't think that's the yeah so what's happening in the east that is more attractive than what's happening in the west and some people might say the weather and but it's you know it's a little bit drier over this

8:31neck of the way but no it's actually to be to be flipping it about it you know there is financial services still going really well in Edinburgh big significant the tourist trade is obviously massive there are still really significant growth in higher education right down the eastern seaboard but particularly Edinburgh universities and Andrews these are kind of bigger parts but that kind of commuter belt around Edinburgh is now really the kind of driving heart of the Scottish economy and that's East Lothian middle Othian south-fifth you know these places have changed and they are now people who work in and out of Edinburgh and that's where an awful lot of the economic activity is and that's a challenge because actually that economy has become overheated and you see it in housing prices and you know comedians coming up and taking ear being bees for a month and you know all that stuff so it's a you know these are we contribute we generate economic activity that's right investors in it in that city

9:33to to to you're you're the beaten heart map you and we pay a price for it and a new tourist tax can't get enough money out of us man it's true and it's and it's an expensive paint as well let's see oh well I'm James the what could Glasgow have done differently it's a good question I mean I think the lack of investment in Glasgow in terms of its infrastructure there has been real problems in terms of the kind of the city centre there's still you know huge opportunities in Glasgow and as I say it's still still the best place to go for a nightlife and music in Scotland without a doubt you know if you're you've got to pick some place for a night out to go and watch a gig you know it's Glasgow every time and so there are brilliant parts in its culture the people are amazing but I think that there are big parts of the the infrastructure the way that this city is being run particularly over the last decade I think has been kind of lucer and lucer

10:34it takes forever to get anything built planning regulations are massively holding up any investment in the city and there is huge levels of inequality that like is the well it's the legacy of not just that chair but you know the put the industrialisation that really hold the city back I think so this is this is part of in a way the Burnham narrative 40 years of neoliberalism that is controversial in some labour circles because they said well I'm going to make we did have 13 years of a labour government where there was redistribution and there was you know huge investment in the public realm what's your view of that narrative then did you sort of think that Britain has had 40 years of neoliberalism and in effect that the Blair Brown years are in it for one of a better term a continuity Tory era no I don't think it's continuity Tory I think that you're right that we made really significant invest in social policy it was a hundred miles away from from that chair I would think that the and the bits that I agree with in Andy's analysis are you know this is

11:40the economist to me the spatial economics of the whole thing you know it's like the how where money was spent on infrastructure and you you can see that in terms of the southeast versus the rest of the country that you know returns on that investment were higher there all that happened so we made we didn't challenge I think the fundamental principles of some of how that investment happened you know about on social policy side of it you know like Britain was transformed by that labour government from 1997 onwards we became a much more liberal easier place to live the politics the country more reflected the spirit of the people we invested heavily in better education you know I could be I could go into the whole the whole list of you know what was achieved at that point by Blair and Gordon Brown together um but you know so let's let's not dismiss any of about achievement and I don't really think that's what Andy's seeking to do but I think he's seeking to you know point out the fact that that there are cities and towns right across the UK that have

12:43been left behind by the economic model and and we should change that direction do you get a sense talking to voters not just members but but members of the public that having Andy Burnham as Prime Minister will make life easier for you in Scotland than it than maybe having Kirsta Amadeh towards the end yeah I do I think that people feel he has got off to a good start they like him they feel that on a day to day basis he's talking about the things that matter to them and some of that I think is often feels like kind of really quite small there's lots of kind of smaller policy initiatives that are actually add up to but they are talking about things that people are talking about whether in the pub or in the cafe or to their friends and and those include you know immigration cost eleven these are things that are you know the the topic that people are are concerned with um and you know the communication between Kier and the country had completely broken down the words they end I mean the day before Poland day um a voter said to me on the doorstep

13:47who now this woman had voted for us in 2024 um and she said to me when I hear the Prime Minister's voice I feel physically sick and I was like that that is complete the total out of all actually kind of realistic proportions to um what his record was and the kind of money he was but to me that was just an illustration one illustration of many that his Kier's ability to talk to the country had completely dissipated and that was a massive issue for us without any doubt in me in terms of the whether people could thought um that it was right to back that Labour government and and their minds kind of by proxy a Labour Party in Scotland well that that comes to the call this should us know is that anything Scottish Labour can ever do that insulate shew against whatever the relative whoever the UK Labour leader is so um they're going to have to be and if I thought that there wasn't and that we couldn't then I wouldn't be standing to do this job because I'm not going to spend

14:48the next five years just of my life and uh open that the world ponds somewhere else so um you know we are going to have to make more of our our own weather in Scotland um and I don't think that that to me is about distant that I say it is about to me it's about delivery so you know if we can we're going to have to um hold and a good taste word in terms of growth in every post-code and you know all that's either we're going to have to show that we deliver for Scotland and I think the Scottish Labour leader can be a big part of that I've been talking about devolution deals for Scotland so you know money from the Treasury but however from hollywood going into local areas to deal with skills shortages to actually deliver job and I know that that can work because I'm speaking of people locally or saying their skills shortages that you know they just you need the the opportunity young people we've got the highest rate of youth unemployment in the whole of the UK so you know those are there are opportunities there to do that but if we're going to win the next general election in Scotland and we're going to you know do well and you know hopefully have the

15:48chance of winning in towards 2031 then it will be on the basis does this government deliver does it not? Is there a ceiling that I mean to link it to something you said earlier about being as broader churches possible you know within certain parameters is that the political change in Scotland since the area we were discussing obviously is effectively the constitution is that that has become a just a far bigger issue for so many voters it does that place a ceiling on what you could ever conceivably get effectively you know prior to 2014 there might have been SMP voters that would have voted for you it does it place a sort of natural ham break on your ability to appeal to SMP voters? So two things on that first one being that one of the huge frustrations in me was that how salient the constitution was to voters in Scotland had dropped dramatically I think it was around 10% people who had been there talk to the issues which is the lost that had been in a very long time so you know this was an horizon opportunity to have a

16:50conversation about health education, future of the country opportunities for young people and we didn't mind to do it and that made the whole thing even more frustrating which maybe kind of backs up your first point but I would say that if we are going to continue on the kind of constitutional arguments say you know it's either independence of the state is cool then the polls are going to be stuck at 50-50 and the SMP are just going to continue leaning into an opportunity uniform share that kind of that 50-50% will leak a little bit to the Greens but whereas the other 50% is massively fractured across lots of parties, in fact what we're arguing for is a stronger united stronger Scotland in a changing United Kingdom then those numbers begin to shift significantly in favor of change for the better and I have a more subit that Matt I think that it's I do think there's a lot of people who feel that Scotland is a weaker country than it was a decade ago you know whether it be our schools universities colleges you know the state of our economy looking around

17:56our streets you know all of those things the economic performance generally kind of the decline of oil and gas and they'd be saying you know actually we need to be a stronger country and that means actually getting those fundamentals right who do they blame for that? it's a it's a real good question I think that they I think they blame all politicians and actually that's the other lesson that I've taken from me is that there's a significant disconnect between the public and on politics you know declining turnout in that election so the S&P share the votes dropped significantly but the general turnout dropped as well and that I think that people are just saying none of this is working for us and actually that leaves you an opportunity to create the pretty dark places you know riser form the kind of the I think the far right as well as the kind of the populist right these are we've seen fascists on the streets of Glasgow again in recent months if you followed any of those reports but really dark images and and some of that you're playing

19:01off of immigration but actually just a general discontent amongst the population that this is working and that that is a bigger question for for all of us actually but I think that it's less we try and genuinely have a process of reconnection and addressing the issues that people have got in their daily lives and talking about not talking about who and something about what matters and then you know we're going to be in a bad bad places at country there's a perception among critics of Scottish Labour that effectively you've become S&P without the Indy that you've gone along with all the stuff the S&P you know put through bar you know a second referendum or agreeing on the constitution and and that as a result you weren't allowed to firstly have a distinct set of values not around the constitution as a difference to the S&P but also allowing things like and voting for things like people who aren't citizens of Scotland to be able to represent them when they're here on the temporary visa and things like that and people think well how has Labour gone along with this

20:03how has Labour gone along with so many of the things that now kind of started to look ludicrous you know because the maybe there wasn't a greater scrutiny around it everyone was voting for it and you know these stuff go through a couple of years later some of these things look down why was Labour not more muscular in resisting things like that so I think I think Scottish politics has been lost a group thank for a long while now and I think that the particularly I think in the kind of erous sturgeon you know there was people were sucked along in the kind of slipstream of you know a big personality in that leadership role and that there became a politics in Scotland became a process of virtue signalling where you were politics were defined not by the wages and people's pockets but by you know the laws that were passed and hold a public message about what you were for and I think we've all been guilty of parts of that I would say the

21:05Labour Party has as well we got to the election I do think that we were pitching ourselves as a version of the SMP but less well frankly we would have been more competent now would we have been yes I think we would have you know I think we would have made a better festive a lot of things but you know we need to find more a more distinct clarity in our thinking and author and some of that is about you know that the Parliament has passed some bloody awful legislation you know over the years that just hasn't worked many much of it actually well intentioned but if it you know to me it's awful if it doesn't actually have any proper outputs so you know and you give one good example of that the only person that actually raised issues about you know people in Scotland you know being elected who weren't citizens what was the Labour Party you know so we raised issues about it in committee and asked the questions but in the end yeah we went long and you know it didn't even raise the consciousness I don't think so there is there's real questions I think

22:05about the way that Holyrood has worked generally on these issues it's not been good enough if you're successful you'll take her from an ass so I was charismatic funny you know well liked you know it's talented as you get really when it comes to politics how much of it on that well yeah you know he's a very tough act to follow so what would you do differently to him so he I agree with all of that so I think Gennas is a really talented politician and he's gone off to do a job for the UK government which I think is really suited to his talents and his abilities and I actually think he'll do a really good job and you know if you want to put somebody in a room to try and charm an extra you know allowance for Haggis in the trade deal you know it would be an assar war you know that would be he's absolutely capable of charming just about anybody in a room in front of him and more more luck to him and in all of that so what would I do differently I think I do think that under an ass the leadership became too narrow and partly

23:11perhaps we became too focused on those growing up sides then asses personality and we didn't find enough differentiation as the things we were just talking about where we didn't find our own base in our politics we'll people lost a little bit of a sense of kind of who we were and what we were for within that and I'm somebody who's more likely to pick a fight for Monest and around issues and I'll pick those possessions with my colleagues on the basis of our beliefs and we'll win someone we'll lose some but I don't think people will struggle to know who we are. So it's you against Joe Fagan what is the kind of you see to the left of you are you both from the same wing of the party like what are the dividing lines in this league I mean that's a good question I don't really I don't know you all that well I think it's a very nice guy he's just a few weeks into the parliament he was a counsellor before that I would find it difficult to say what his his politics were and in terms of some of the things he has said you know but I've always seen

24:18myself to probably significantly to the left of the last on you know kind of economic issues in particular that's probably my own general kind of pitch but you know I'll leave it to Joe to himself in terms of those other issues I think probably it's just kind of for the real differences have been experience outside of politics my view so I you know I've had a kind of a pretty long career outside before I was elected five years ago also experience in parliament that's part of it but you know before I came in to parliament I worked for Oxfam for years here and the broad founded the child poverty charity I worked as an academics and economist for a lot of years so there's a breadth of experience outside of that but also the character of leadership that you know it's you know I believe that I've got the empathy and the ability to can bring people together from that broad church and trying to unite that family of the Labour Party but you know it's familiar to you but is is a you know quite can be a disparate bunch of people at times

25:32you know you mentioned the work you've done for Oxfam you worked some far from places including Malawi what how long were you out there for? I just wanted off so we did various work out there so livelihood projects which was and the kind of communities are really impacted by HIV climate change issues it's an amazing place Malawi and I yeah actually I contracted a Shista Somiasis when I was out there which was it was a pretty serious disease but it's you it's a little worms crawling side your skin and then hatch and you're yeah and so it's actually if you can get treated if you get the you know it's going to result in liver cancer eventually but if you if you get the the right tablets timely it's just by swimming so late Malawi is the most beautiful lake imaginable is like the stunning runs right to the middle of the country went swimming in there and they they said oh you know that you know

26:34these snails can swim inside your inside and so anyway but got tested by my lovely colleagues when I went back to the office afterwards after I hadn't been diagnosed I'd made this massive collage of a snail and put it on the wall which was very sensitive of them but anyway for me it's absolutely fine you know it's a few tablets and that was kind of cleared up but yeah it was it was a really interesting job I loved working on lots of those issues and a privilege to work with really committed people and for all the donors who give so much money to to help focus on the most dire circumstances you must have been terrified well it's not really because I knew I knew that if you took the tablets you'd be all right you know and and and I and I have been so it's and that's how suppose it's like the kind of the the problem of the inequality and all this you know you contract that and you're you're in Malawi you're you're in trouble you know or candy in the long run unless you get the timely treatment but yeah it's all good so you're working for oxam were you a bit of a hippie in your youth?

27:39a hippie um I wouldn't say a hippie no I don't think anyone would ever have described me as as a as a hippie I was more you know kind of like you know we took my my head shaved at times I didn't grow my hair long and my hair's not long now that's for sure yeah but it's mostly falling out and yeah but no I was a bit more in other kinds of music I remember getting when we were uni had my head shaved like Keith Flint you know kind of three no wife like the poverty yeah yeah yeah from the poverty like three kind of Mexicans there's there's photos out there somewhere of that some more down the punk route than the hippie maybe maybe yeah I mean go I mean go too far you know that was it was it was in a barber's chair in a nightclub rather than in a like by choice so you didn't like green like Keith Flint no no in much respect I'm the late late beloved oh man an absolute hero but I can't picture you with that haircut no no no I know I

28:40but there is pictures out there somewhere somewhere so were you were teenage radical were you did you start off as I could communist or socialist and then become more moderate not not communist certainly but I would say I was probably you know more on the left and yeah and I think over time my kinematics have shifted a little but I remember being in a kind of a like back when Tony Blair was PM and being in a room with some fellow travelers and I realized they were having an argument about how to fall out with Gordon Brown when he was prime minister they were trying to lose the argument before it had actually happened and I thought to myself that was the more I could thought this was I'm in the wrong place these people are not interested in actually changing anything you know great lovely people but they were it was you know I would say my politics has always been of the left but pragmatic deep play pragmatic what is what's what can change things for people

29:41and if it's not going to change I'm not that interested so who would you play to go heroes be over time goodness me this probably shifted from all the kind of grates to the labor party but I think there's a kind of a kind of you know from Gordon himself Gordon Brown I still when I have to speak to him on the phone I'm still slightly terrified if I'm honest you know of just the not not by his personality he's always been absolutely lovely to me but but more just the scale of you know speaking to the guy who you know was of that scale of intellect and I've read his PhD thesis on Mac than you know all that connected so yeah so do you understand it oh yeah yeah it's a good book has it been published as a book so it's yeah it's a test right store you know you're an economist so you could follow it could someone like me of course yeah it's mostly that you know kind of um housing policy in the um in the west of Scotland in the you know in the area red clite side yeah I'm sure you would surely would enjoy it's not too technical it's not too technical and it's

30:48yeah but yeah economics has more been my kind of thing in terms of that's what I've done studied at the LSE and it's not my self-in-racial reefs were at the LSE at the same time together but I've been doing some of the same courses we just found that out when she was a chancellor and I was financed book person we kind of jotted about that and but yeah we might have been in a different nightclub so your sister Jenny was also an MSP as well yes was it a political house or were you to a departure from the norm no I it's very much so yeah we were multi-generational so my great-grandfather great-grandfather founded the ILP and done the independent labor party you know he founded the jute and flak workers union which was a huge trade union in our city and he we have done note to them introducing Ramsey Macdonald that I met him in Dundee so it's been a long time thing my uncle yeah it was my great-great-grandfather my his son was that you know

31:53that's actually the labor party in Dundee for 30-odd years and so we've always been involved in Jenny was an MSP for 10 years my sister and you know really talented women and she she stopped because she had her second son and she she just couldn't see how she could balance it anymore and I was selected in our state by the membership so yeah it's always been you know it was politics in the dinner table we started gov and leave for it in our the age of certainly me the age of eight 1987 general election tell me you've got some memorabilia from the old days somewhere old leaflets or something yeah we've got I've got like you one of my great-grandfathers election leaflets up in in my office so from and he's got a magnificent moustache you know kind of like twiddled out so you know kind of and yes we've got those and his manifesto actually some of the stuff doesn't change you know talking about you know it's bloody depressing and I love to say you know a century on

32:53and you know because it was the the 20s that he was standing and and it was you know housing in certain parts of dundee which are still really difficult yeah many of the same things so what determines whether you're dundee united or a dundee fan is there a board or anywhere or was it religious or something yeah I mean I could say things that get me into trouble here about taste and success and all that but my my dad was one of four brothers all his three brothers were dundee fans my dad was a dundee united fan but was the only one that really liked football so he he kind of went to all kinds of games he's he's still plays he's 70 six years old and he's yeah and he's so much better football player than I am and and always has been the skeptic generation my son's so much better player than I am as well already as well but he so we were yeah but then the 90s kind of cemented that you know Jim McQueen the brilliant you know just as for not an unforeste fans it was the great housing days but yeah similar

33:56some of the times in a way so the two Maurice Malpass I remember I think just because when I was really football magazines in the 90s it was just such a cool name yeah it's a cool name you know the guy Richard Gads who did oh yeah baby reindeer so he has d u fc on his knuckles tattooed on his knuckles and somebody asked them in a national newspaper why do you have d u fc tattooed on your knuckles and he said because I don't have enough fingers for Malpass the the interviewer must have just kind of like to move on just don't understand any of this so yeah great player who was your second one you said there was Malpass and Rai McKinnon yeah and you were going to say that because he went to forest yeah yeah night time a fabulous person I still see him about time still see him about time here um yeah he he came back to us later in his career scored a hat check at free kicks in one game three three three three kicks he was ridiculously talented player um I don't really feature

34:58for sadly but you had great hair you had a fantastic good guy on south pho Lam pod there's be old side parties yeah yeah handsome handsome devil and he he came through with beyond McLean Zera of Duncan Ferguson all these guys that were like they were like a real group of youth players that came through but Raymond was a fabulous player so what what what the interest do you have you to music and things like yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah love um yeah music I would redid a video recently in my radio sex dad uh choices oh yes I saw that on social media yeah yeah yeah so um yeah big big into all kinds of things t h van club the national um but yeah all sorts yeah um I read a lot as well kind of affection mostly literary kind of affection so um yeah those are just political books no I do I do read I read a lot I read a lot of books so like I do read um furious I read the visionaries recently James Holland you know it's like again of the martial

35:59plan and it just came out recently I think he's transposing some of the post-second world work crisis on a trump and all that kind of stuff in current wars um but yeah also just um I'm reading that London falling at the moment oh yes Patrick Rodden Keith yeah oh that's amazing brilliant I've just kind of got halfway through it I only started it two days ago and it's just great I think it's brilliant um but then you know Casavishiguro I was reading Remains of the day the other day which but bizarre lead I've read I've read pretty much all of his other books apart from that one which was the his most famous but anyway yeah so I read a lot so it sounds like you got quite a good work-life balance um I try um I have to see and I suppose I'm a little bit worried about what comes next with all of that but um you know this is a big kind of um step up but I yeah I tried to make sure that I've got kind of time and space uh to think um there's still some things that probably mess out don't see enough of my mates probably um and that I would like to but you know you make

37:00sacrifice and then we've got the kids and all that stuff so we've got them with that you're a healthy looking fella I would say you've got a runner's look about you's life I do I started running in lockdown um and I used to go to the gym but I couldn't do that anymore so when my wife my wife's a social worker when she got home from work I was standing on the doorstep desperate to leave and I would run until my clock ran down and you had to go back inside like a anyway um and so yeah Randall and Marathon a few years ago oh my god yeah yeah I run most most days now so I do but I'm actually I'm I'm fully off the beer at the moment so um due to this there's selection thing so not a single point and I'm actually probably have lost a wee bit more weight as a result of that so my father-in-law was saying you're looking too skinny son but anyway so what was your time at the London marathon oh god it wasn't all that good so it was about I think it was 419 that's amazing you know what no no no it's not I was like I was going to respect the age you'd have done it come on that's true that's true still but my we I did it with uh I did it with my mate Ian

38:06and he was my senior and no not Ian Murray no that that's yeah maybe maybe he could run the London marathon I don't know I'll have to ask him but no I you my mate Ian McFarland who is he's a proper runner he went to school me he's a Sparky and he he had finished about I think he was like sub three hours and so he'd been in the pub and had five pints by the time I caught him and yeah so he was yeah but we'll be started at the same time but um so yeah there's guys that are on my through are much quicker um but um my my training kind of dried up at the end just do these Sunday runs when you've got to get in kind of you know three and a half four hours just too much for me if I'm honest with work so there's a lot of training yeah it is yeah so are you missing bear I am a little bit yeah what do you drink I love uh well mostly tenants of course like a typical Scotsman but um I love Yarrow J-A-R-L fine fine beer I'm going to recommend you to

39:10get a J-A-R-L it's a session IP oh is that a my yes oh it's lovely it's a bit of flavor on it it's uh I went to the tenants factory the other day to the tour of it what did you just don't know oh no there was a few of us oh although I would have gone on my own and um they they let you taste some of the unpasteurised stuff on site uh which think delicious I mean I've obviously had tenants in the past yeah yeah but the stuff they have on site if you're into it I would maybe maybe celebrate by doing a tour of the time that's true I could I could sell it if you mean celebrate being able to drink beer again or celebrate when the leadership yeah yeah wait and see well wait I'm not counting my chickens but far from any for from that I'll take agile and we'll maybe have a pint together well that's it celebrate the process being over whichever way it goes yeah so two weeks to go and um but feeling um yeah if you don't do the positive about it I will

40:12we'll see have you done any head-to-debate yet we have we've done I think 13 13 13 I think we've got another four maybe to go so um it feels like a particularly cruel kind of punishment for the membership if I'm honest but but they um yeah we've done we've done a lot so lots of kind of in-person one's regional ones but one on the tele um it could funny thing to do that it's like you know um with somebody who you know you've got a lot of respect for and you're trying to find as you're kind of illustrating they're I'm honest about that there's not massive differences between Jo and I in terms of our kind of broad perspective this is not kind of Ben versus Healy you know in terms of like they um they wad for the movement so um you know you're we're talking about potato policies different attitudes traditional experience um but yeah it's it's a bit of a it's a bit of a slog has it got tense at all I wouldn't say so I don't not not for me um you may be

41:14said anything that's annoyed you um as he said anything that's annoyed me um no he said a few things I disagree with you know um about I think probably Jo's analysis of kind of what has come before um you know um some of which I think is you know reasonable but it's just isn't the case because you know Jo wasn't and Parliament didn't see some of both the kind of the reasons why we made mistakes and uh and you know things that haven't worked out and um you know so yeah there there've been bitcom pieces like that but you know we'll clear up all that all that up afterwards and we'll have those conversations I understand that you know rightly so Jo's in it to win it and he wants to you know kind of define himself and that's that's a tough thing yeah and all the things you know you'll be saying you've got the experience etc etc he'll be saying I'm a fresh voice and all that sort of thing so is he saying this old man Michael Mara he's been there five long years yeah yeah look at him like he's lost all his career he's a wizard face you know

42:18it's never favored don't put him through it that age you're moving more let's take it let's say at home with his books and his dad music you know they'll be fine but not the man have a pine his gaspin he'll never drink again if he wins get this guy attendance put him out of his misery and don't let him go don't tempt me so the six music type of music that suggests some more discerning ear you're not saying you know when you list the band you're not saying a way since the verb you're saying teenage fan club you're saying I've got a bit better taste I'm a bit of a music snob yeah that's basically what I'm saying yeah I've like kind of I don't wear that I'm a friend you and gets on to me for that about you know being a bit of a kind of a he says you know if you like if you love it you love it music music and I've seen all those bands I've seen the verb I've seen a way since I think probably what nine times back in the day you know we were saw them in Eros Court in London and yeah when I was a teenager remember going down there on the train and coming back had my school uniform packed in

43:23the bag for the next next morning get off the sleeper train and straight into double double history so oh my yeah the circle oh yeah it was mental you know that was with Ian as well actually the guy I run with now but we went down but no we just yeah I still if I can go go get the next gig I'm going to is this one's Phoebe Bridgers you know yeah so it's what she's more my daughters kind of things we went she and I went to C. Taylor Swift a couple of years ago and Emily we tried I took it to see Big Thief at the barrow lines with a Big Thief so yeah so that's probably a bit radio six as well but Big Thief are brilliant that was my choice rather than her so it was our 14th birthday and because you're allowed in gigs at cell pints so we went to went to the barrow lines to watch Big Thief and that was that was awesome so actually got quite a broad taste yeah yeah that's that's all totally fair that's totally fair yeah you're quite animated by the whole oasis come back aren't you no I just think it's the greatest thing that's ever happened

44:25I can't see the film I just can't get enough of it I can't get enough I mean I like other stuff as well yeah kind of older stuff Johnny Cash but I just think oasis to something very special yeah they're funny yeah I love I love the fact that my son listens to them a lot now and he is just about well maybe like two years younger than you know they say that thing when you like the music that came out when you were 14 is something that kind of lives with you for completely your life and so on but the oasis would be about that for me maybe maybe 15 or what but so yeah they were it was a sound of that time wasn't it but yeah so so so so so what bands then Lauren supergrabson yeah all these like guys at that point so do all think you know you read a lot you exercise you're culturally aware you're a good cook um but all right a bit of otolengue you know that's kind of probably my yeah but simple they you know yeah extra vegetable stuff yeah yeah quite a lot of veggie stuff I eat a lot of

45:30veggie stuff now in comparison to what I used to so you are a bit of a hippie yeah so what would you call yourself a meat reducer you still have the odd bit yeah I think that's I think that's probably I think that's probably fair meat reducer I still like a steak I still like yeah it's if we mean you can yeah I would give me a still rather a really good steak than anything else with chips obviously and a pint and a pint of tenets so but then with otolengue you're making what you're spiralizing your obe gene yeah aha with some Nigerian seeds a little bit of black tamarind and all that kind of jazz yeah yeah this is really good this is that health conscious high quality stuff you're making maybe yeah yeah I don't do it as much as I used to so I'm probably like from busyness kind of see my my waifal listen to this and think the last time you did any of this was a long time ago you're lying you know so she melney cooks more than now than I she used to because I don't have as much time but on a

46:35leadership campaign you're traveling the country you're eating on the hoof you can't be taking your otolengue around in a tupperware can you got to be getting varieties and macaroni pies we're in Greg's yesterday so for a yeah a mech tokin oval bike so that was you know good for chicken yeah yeah yeah me I'm like I'm not like that yeah I'm not sure it's seen Mexico recently but yeah it was all good yes a Mexican style it's it's off in the way now you're like what yeah that is it's been modified the Mexican the Mexicans would not agree yeah yeah oh my god can you imagine we've recreated some of your food up in school yeah man so this all ends in a few weeks it does balanced close what 19th September or something like that yeah in the rest of 19th September and then yeah but we're already back in parliament so that we are working away already but then straight into conferences and down into Liverpool so there'll be a big kind of kicking off point around the leadership there but it's a long road that you know we've got

47:39you know five years ahead of us but there's you know council elections next year the general election obviously when that comes up and then you know we're a long way to 2031 but and the next Scottish parliament election but if we're going to change that direction it's going to take an awful lot of work and it's going to take a genuine process of trying to reconnect with people in a more fundamental way than we have before and that is you know I've been calling it can it politics with the doors open you know we've become Scottish Labour's become small when the issues have got bigger and we need to to grow our movement again we need to attract people bring them to the tent you know what we have to meet people where they are and talk to them about the issues that matter to them and try and win converts to that cause though it's it's a lot of work but it's yeah I've got real enthusiasm for it because from the outside people say well hang on a minute you know for all the you know the dominant to the SMP people say I mean from the outside people say they've never been a better time to fight the SMP they've been around forever then records not great the

48:42scandal and all that sort of business and yeah they are still the most popular party in Scotland and yeah and yeah so they share the vote when done by I think it was 9% you know a little bit a little bit more in different places but across the board it's but they retain a real more of vote of people who as you identify there's a constitutional attraction to that if you can command a kind of a baseline of 25% of the vote that's a really solid place to start but I do think you know people are really conscious about the record and how purer it is in lots of different ways our job now is to genuinely show what a difference would look like well Michael it's a big old job I mean it's like plucking Excalibur isn't it you know many strong labour leaders have tugged at that yeah but so you know there's been there's been nine nine of them before and I you know it's

49:42it's a real since since Donald and there's it's a real is a tough gig and you know we shouldn't we shouldn't shouldn't care ourselves that this is about changing small things it's not about kind of a different policy here a different name on the door of the leaders office that you know it's if we we aren't fundamentally going to change the culture and the way that we work then you know it's it ain't gonna happen so we're we're shoulder to the real we get on with it Michael good luck so how are you gonna how are you gonna unwind after this interview out campaigning or you're gonna go for a jog gonna stick six weeks to come I am actually going to go for a run after this and listen to a podcast maybe maybe one of the map forward was I don't know but I probably won a bit done DNA it Michael it's been a pleasure thank you so much thank you man well there you go Michael Mara and if you are a Scottish Labour member the ballot closes on

50:42the 17th September and we will see who wins on the 19th September can if he wins can Michael Mara be the Scottish Labour leader that eventually overturns the SMP it is a heck of a political challenge and Scottish politics is fascinating because obviously there's all the all the stuff that UK politics has pull us a whole load of other layers in there that make it really difficult for Scottish Labour or at the moment basically anyone who isn't the SMP to win but of course that is a challenge that that faces these parties you have to find a way through it and it is politics is just I just find it absolutely fascinating you know you're trying to pick that lock you're trying to solve that riddle and the things that you do that that maybe in some areas will bring you new voters will lose your voters in other areas and try to often you know you got a crowded political marketplace in Scotland all the different parties and it cuts liberal left it also cuts yes no it

51:43cuts leave remain then you got new entrance like reform and I do not envy anyone in politics anywhere to be frank I usually admire anyone who stands for public office anyone who gets elected anyone who then wins a general election and can then start changing things I just think the resilience these people need and I think you could send that to Michael a little bit that weariness that if he wins the impact on his family and just in terms of time just in terms of time and and what it does to your life politics is brutal even when it's fairly normal and the price that politicians pay is huge to represent their communities so it's a big old gig even even leading a party in opposition so a good luck to to Michael and Joe Fagan they are both standing to be labelled at the interest and see a wins and we will cover that victory right here on the political party and you can come and see the political party as I said live on stage in the West End list candle on the 9th of November who of course has stood for the labelled leadership at UK level served in the

52:45cabinet we're streeting sectors take for defence at the Christmas special on the 21st of December more guest to be announced mat4.com for all your ticketing needs and I'll see you next week with another fantastic guest till then to raw