How the CIA Creates Mind Controlled Assassins

Why would the government program American citizens

to murder other American citizens?

Well, that's the question.

So you have documented projects called M.K. Ultra

and other kind of variations of mind control,

creating splits and multiple personalities,

careers and spies,

humanitarian candidates,

assassinate world leaders.

They use whoever they could get their hands on,

hypnotizing them,

brain electrode implants,

electric shock, creating the super spy.

This stuff is shocking.

The US Army released a list of 120-ish different drugs

that had been used for mind control testing.

1,500 people times 120 different drugs.

It's a lot of people.

It's a lot of people.

When you get into the documents,

you find out this guy is connected to this guy,

this guy is connected to that guy,

it's this whole network.

Lee Harvey Oswald used the supposed lone gunman.

Probably wasn't the lone gunman when it comes to assassinating JFK.

Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oswald.

So he probably was an M.K. Ultra patient before

having shot Lee Harvey Oswald.

Who doesn't remember shooting something?

Sir Hanser Han, to this day,

says that he has no recollection of having shot R.K.

What do you remember about shooting if you're willing to talk about that?

Obviously I was there,

but I don't remember the exact moment.

I don't remember pulling my gun.

And then you have a guy like Mickey Bay,

who's an M.K. Ultra patient,

Manson, who's an M.K. Ultra patient.

These people are committing a horrific act.

You think that my mind is like you're mine, but it isn't.

This is really creepy.

I wonder if the same thing happened with Epstein.

The thing is it's not just some crazy conspiracy theory.

It's actually possible.

Can I give you my crazy Epstein M.K. Ultra theory?

Oh, you'll be in trouble if you don't.

Okay.

There's nothing between us.

How is this possible?

Nothing to my question about that.

Dude, existence cannot longer be the night.

As you know,

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people who've worked inside black programs,

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Sometimes I feel like I'm a chimp talking to human beings.

Often their work takes a toll,

and a lot of them track their health obsessively.

Regular lab work, obscure biomarkers,

often things that most people never look at.

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I'm here with Dr. Colin Ross, who blew my mind

with just a really kind of bombshell crazy book.

It's called CIA Doctors.

I brought you a coffee, actually.

Thank you.

And well, here's my coffee.

And there's your other coffee.

Yeah, amazing. Well, thanks.

I'd love a second.

And I'd love to hand it as many of these out as possible

to as many people as, you know, I can because...

It's over a million, I'm good.

Okay, perfect. Yeah, just give me an affiliate fee.

But truly, this stuff is shocking.

You have documented the kind of medical malpractice

of a whole host of psychiatrists who are either officially

or unofficially associated often with CIA

and projects called MKUltra and a lot of the derivatives

and sub compartments and other kind of variations

of that mind control largely.

And it talks about dissociating personalities,

creating splits and multiple personalities

so that you can send careers and spies,

create meanturian candidates, assassinate world leaders.

It is mind-blowing and it's jarring to say the least.

Well, and the thing is, so I'll give you a background,

personal background a little bit.

So I grew up in Canada, medical schools,

psychiatrists training worked in Canada for a while,

and then moved here equals Texas in 91

to, you know, my specialty is multiple personality

equals dissociative identity disorder.

And so I was in a program there at a hospital up in Plano

and two or three months in, one of the patients

who had multiple personalities comes up with this little sheath

of papers and all paranoid and scared and hands them to me

and I don't want these to take these.

And I look at them and I go, hmm, MKUltra,

first I've heard of that, that's how I got into it

by this woman handing me this pile of papers.

Otherwise, wasn't interested and all about it.

I thought the search for the maturian candidate

was some kind of movie or something, but it wasn't really sure.

It is a movie, it's I think 1961,

Frank Sinatra, and it discusses the creation

of this assassin, essentially, post-Korean war

that, you know, Manchuria is this northeastern part of China.

And it's based on a book from the 50s.

There you go.

So fiction, Hollywood, entertaining, and a story.

So what I did was I read a couple of books

that existed, there was no published.

Like mainstream journal type papers.

And then I was down in northern Virginia

for conference in 92.

And I corresponded with the CIA,

which was like pre-internet back in the era.

And they gave me an address to come to

to read the MKUltra papers.

So I'm at the conference hotel.

There's just a crazy side story in itself.

Walk out, get in a taxi.

And it turns out the taxi driver is telling me his story of

he was a police officer in Afghanistan

before he moved to the United States.

I wonder if this is a coincidence that this guy is dragging me.

And then he goes,

would you like to go through the grounds of the Pentagon on the way?

Whoa.

Sure, okay.

And then he says, well, where are you going?

What are you doing? I'm just going to meet with some people.

Trust me off at this building that it's very nondescript.

You can't tell what it is.

I walk in there.

And I mean, this civilian guy has nothing to do with the military.

And there's a whole bunch of military guys in uniform.

One science is a secure line,

DIA only.

Another one is secure lines.

CIA only.

I walk up to the desk.

Hi, I'm here to read some documents.

And the guy gives me a look like,

no, here's one of these guys here.

Sign in.

And the woman comes down after 10 minutes, maybe.

Get in the little jam elevator with a bunch of guys in uniform

and a bunch of guys who I don't know who they are.

Go up to fifth floor, seventh floor, whatever it was.

Get off.

Walk down the corridor.

And there's like a submarine door with, she has a key code in.

Then another door.

And then we're in a small office and a sign of peace paper.

Walk over here through another one of those doors into a room

where there's a cart with all the 149-M culture projects there.

And 15,000 pages of documents had to read them all.

It took a while.

Thank God you did all this because it's a really comprehensive book.

And it clearly touches kind of close to the metal

as far as what actually transpired and what went on.

And if you really want to kind of understand

what these psychiatrists were doing, how they were communicating

with, you know, CIA, this book is great.

So just real quick for the audience,

you give a little context as to how you got into this topic.

What's your day job?

Psychiatrist.

Okay.

And you have no affiliation with MK Ultra, I assume.

Uh-uh.

Okay.

Of course people go, oh yeah, that's what he says.

I'm just a civilian guy.

Uh-uh.

So I know lots about all these documented facts.

Yeah.

And I have this pile of documents.

But I don't have any insider knowledge about stuff currently at all.

Okay.

Which is kind of disappointing in a way.

Yeah.

Well, the trail goes dark in 1975 with the church commission

where all this malfeasance, you know, in the CIA,

not just mind control stuff was investigated.

And there was this kind of large reform.

Let's go back to the very beginning of cowboy intelligence interventionism in the human

body.

So I want to talk about, you know, uh-

I'm talking China 3000 BC.

No.

No, no.

At least in the American context.

Thanks.

So, um, let's talk about the Tuskegee experiment because that for people who are in their

minds, they're like, how could the government ever do something like this?

It just seems so horrific and beyond what they would ever do.

I think this is a really good jumping off point.

That's why there's a chapter in the book about Tuskegee.

So one of the skeptical things is you could never do all that stuff and keep it secret.

And if it was known, it would get shut down.

So Tuskegee, which is a town in the Southern United States, um, 1932.

The public health service was the organizing entity.

Uh, surgeon general signed off on it.

All these top medical people were aware.

And I've got a one of the papers I copied is called side effects of syphilis in the male

Negro is the title of the paper.

So give people context on just high level what happened because it's so shocking.

They recruited 400 black rural mostly literate guys who had syphilis and then prevented them

from getting treatment all the way till it was shut down in 1972 because a reporter blew whistle on it.

So it was studying the effects of untreated syphilis.

And the astounding medical discovery was people would get sick and die earlier.

Yeah.

Shocker.

Shocker.

Uh, pretty, pretty, pretty crazy.

So you, you have that obviously occurring.

You have really radiation experiments.

What, you know, how does radiation interact with the physical body?

It's all documented.

100%.

And there's all kinds of like on the other things I've heard, I suspect.

But right now we're just 100% documented.

So, uh, Clinton had a report in the late 90s on radiation experiments.

It's like pretty thick, a couple of inches thick.

And in there, it describes a whole bunch of stuff, including, uh, I think it was seven.

HP seven was his name, which means human product seven.

Mm-hmm.

Those guys that they did radiation experiments on.

So, and this is in one of the Harvard hospitals in Boston.

He comes into the ER unconscious in a coma.

They inject them with plutonium.

And he dies, although they were waking up, not from the plutonium, just whatever happened with them.

So they're just, how does it go through his kidneys?

How is it excreted?

They're studying that.

Jesus Christ.

So if the guy arrived in a coma, I'm guessing he didn't give informed consent, right?

Okay.

So let's get to MK Ultra or just mind control generally.

When did the idea of mind control cross the minds of American leadership?

What's documented is in the Second World War, because people have been manipulated controlling people forever, right?

So just making a government organized, sophisticated, scientific doctors involved,

that's at least in the Second World War.

So, in 1941 or two, all this intelligence agencies, which are kind of scattered all over the place in the US,

were brought under the umbrella of the Office of Strategic Services, which is the OSS.

And then the OSS was disbanded at the end of the war.

And then in 1947, the CIA was created, and a lot of the OSS guys just moved over there.

So, there's a guy named GH Estabrux, who's a chapter in the book, Colgate College, Upstate New York.

He published a book in 1943 on hypnotism in a paper in 1971 or two in a magazine describing creating the Super Spy.

And I have copies of his contract with the war department back in 1943 or so.

Him corresponding with MK Ultra top secret clear contractors, inviting them to Colgate College, corresponding with them,

co-publishing with some of them, giving talks on the Super Spy at US Army conferences,

inviting the number two or three guy and the FBI to Colgate College to a conference,

and corresponding back and forth to J. Edgar Hoover from 30s to 60s, I think it was.

This is all totally documented.

So, he doesn't describe his methods very much, but he says he gets a susceptible guy.

This is all in the published material.

He puts him through some sort of conditioning, which he doesn't really describe in any detail.

And then he describes, which is also in the MK Ultra documents, he describes a hypnotic code word that's implanted, which was the moon is clear.

So, he brings this Army guy in, or he assigns it to the colonel.

The colonel brings in this Army guy, gives him an assignment to take some career materials over to Tokyo,

and then says the moon is clear, outcomes the artificially created identity, created by Esther Brooks,

gives him whatever the information is, sends the guy over to Tokyo.

The officer on the far end says, oh thanks for the documents, the moon is clear.

The secret message is transmitted, the response is implanted, switch back to the regular guy, he goes back home.

This explicit clear detail is described.

And then in the C.I. created in 47, Bluebird and Artichoke were the precursors of MK Ultra, which started in 1950.

And in those documents, it describes experiments where they use secretaries and whoever they could get their hands on, hypnotizing them, getting them to do tasks and assignments, and then having them easier for that.

It was all described in great detail.

So the idea is if you could compartmentalize a person from an aspect of themselves, you can get that compartmentalized aspect to do whatever you want,

and you can create a trigger to move somebody from their normal generic personality into this kind of secret career person.

And in the documents, it describes words, verbal trigger, touch, in the mentoring candidate, book and movie, it's a playing card, so it can be anything that becomes a trigger.

Yeah, okay, so you have Bluebird, you have Artichoke.

Then we got MK Ultra, which then runs into the early 60s, that's rolled over to MK Search, which runs into the early 70s.

What is MK?

There's speculation about that, but I don't know for sure. Some people think it's mind control.

But at YK.

So you can sound scary in German?

Oh, oh, Jesus, yeah, that's weird.

And what were some of the earliest experiments that even like tipped US intel officials off that this was even possible?

In the documents that I have, the geogester books, you know, pitched his expertise to the CIA early in the 50s.

Yeah, I read this book called The Controllers by Martin Cannon, and he talks about Esther Brooks bragging about this sort of thing.

So, okay, fascinating.

He clearly liked to brag.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Who in the American government and intel community kind of championed this idea at the time, kind of post World War II, that we should be experimenting with this?

Well, director of the CIA signed Bluebird into operation in April 1952, three months before the Korean War started in June.

And then the disinformation cover story was, oh, we were just reacting to what the communist Chinese were doing.

But it was already in place offensive and defensive before the Korean War started.

So the directors of the CIA were all knew it was going on.

The top guy was Sydney Gottlieb for M. Kiltre, who's an interested character in and of itself.

And so he was kind of the organizer of me and character.

Get the year 50, 50 something.

There's a guy in Fort Detrick in the chemical warfare division named Frank Wilson.

And he was starting to have a little problem with his conscience and was kind of maybe going to become a whistleblower.

So, Sydney Gottlieb invited him to a party somewhere outside the Washington DC area.

And he was given a dose of LSD and went through the cure.

And then he had sort of a bad trip, but that in itself is a cover story.

Because the story was, as a result of the being mentally ill, they didn't mention the LSD.

He jumped out of a hotel window, the statler hotel, the 10th floor and died.

But actually, Harold Abranson, who's involved in M. Kiltre, was a doctor who's involved in the story.

And there's a guy named Pierre Lefeet, who had literally like 20 aliases, which are all listed in a book.

The last name of one of his aliases was Hydel.

Alex Hydel was the Harvey Oswald's alias.

What?

And Lee Harvey Oswald and Pierre Lefeet both worked at the Riley coffee company in the same period, 60 to 63.

So this is all some good way up of something.

Do you think Lee Harvey Oswald could have been an M. Kiltre patient?

Very well.

He easily could have been.

Wow.

Wait, so just...

I don't know what he was, but he very easily could have.

So let's back up.

So Frank Olson is working on biological warfare at Fort Detrick, as part of M. K. Naomi.

Pushed out of the hotel.

Pushed out of the hotel window.

Pierre Lefeet.

By Pierre Lefeet.

I believe Frank Olson's son is named Eric Olson.

And he investigated this and realized the window was actually too small for him to...

He couldn't have jumped out of this thing.

He must have been pushed.

Well, the family just bought the story.

But then they read one paragraph in a Rockefeller Commission report, 73 or somewhere in there, describing exactly what happened to their dad,

saying that he was dosed with LSD.

So that's how they got on and got lawyers.

And there's a photograph of the family in the Oval Office of the White House with the president giving them the $700,000 compensation check.

Jesus Christ.

So it was all blown wide open.

Yeah.

And Sidney Gottley, on record, you know, is a great biography of him called Poisoner and Chief.

Right.

And he's known as kind of almost the US version of Joseph Mangola.

And like just kind of cowboy border science, like, you know, human subjects testing.

He was head of the technical staff services for the CIA.

Technical services division.

Technical services division.

Technical services division.

Sorry, TSD.

What was there was also TSS, though, I believe.

Anyways.

Yeah.

I think it was the same thing with a different name.

Okay.

Okay.

So, okay.

But I don't want to let up on this Lee Harvey Oswald who's supposed to loan gunmen who now everybody kind of knows probably wasn't the loan gunmen when it comes to...

It comes to assassinating JFK in November of 1963.

I have a document that's part of the...

Bluebird Artichoke papers, I think.

But one of those...

There's multiple programs.

Project, often, M.K. Naomi.

There's like five or six of them all parallel.

The document is one intelligence officer ready to another intelligence officer.

That after 63...

No, before 63.

That Lee Harvey Oswald's mother has gotten in contact with the guy.

Because Lee Harvey Oswald's mother is concerned that somebody's been impersonating him in Europe.

Well, it's a bunch of suspicious stuff going on.

And then the other main suspicious thing about the story is...

Okay.

So, Marine Guy defecs to Russia.

And then we just let him back in.

Don't put him under surveillance or any story, nothing to see here.

Well, then he goes and works at 544 Camp Street in New Orleans.

And the guy who owns that building is an FBI investigator named Guy Bannister.

Right.

So that's strange.

And I believe he was implicated in...

Yeah.

Lee Harvey Oswald had the gun of...

He almost assassinated somebody six months earlier or something.

Right.

But Walker...

He was such a lousy shot that he didn't kill the guy.

Yeah.

And the guy...

He's a military guy, you know, Walker.

Yeah, Walker.

Right.

Yeah.

There's so much off about that whole story.

And then he gets a job at the Texas book depository.

And the woman who owns that...

Or the woman who he's like living with is Ruth Payne.

Right.

And she's very close with Mary Bancroft, who's Alan Dulles' mistress.

The director of the CIA.

Yeah.

So there's so many...

Ruth Payne is very tied in.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Yeah, yeah.

And then the guy who owns the Texas bird depository is a guy named Harold Bird.

Oh, I don't know that.

Oh, yeah.

And he was a...

I think related to Richard Bird who did Operation High Jump, who's headed towards, you know, Antarctica.

And might have ran into like flying saucers, sort of weird lore around that.

But Harold Bird won, you know, some award for the Civil Air Corps.

From Curtis Lemay, and I believe was...

The Bird family was close with LBJ as well.

Right.

And there, you know, reasons to believe that LBJ might have had something to do with the assassination of JFK.

Obviously, he was a ruthlessly political guy.

So that's the sort of politics, conspiracy side of things.

It's the same thing when you get into the documents.

You find out documented documents.

This guy is connected to this guy.

This guy is connected to that guy.

It's this whole network.

It's not just two guys at an office running the show.

What are the...

Let's set the landscape as far as what are the modalities they are testing.

So clearly hypnotism is one of them.

Is there like a lecture of shocking, right?

That's like...

There's all kinds of stuff.

Yeah.

Brain electrode implants.

Okay.

Electric shock.

A whole bunch of different drugs.

Classical sensor deprivation, isolation.

Basically, they just kind of like threw everything at the wall to see what would stick.

Yeah.

It's very...

I was going to say, Helter Skelter.

It's probably not a good choice of term for this.

But so in 75 or 6 at committee hearings, the general counsel for the US Army released a list of 120-ish different drugs that had been used for mind-control testing by the Army.

And they admitted to 1,500 LSD subjects.

And there's videos of those online still.

And sometimes it seems like they're admitting to 4,000.

But if we do 1,500 people times 120 different drugs, it's a lot of people, right?

It's a lot of people.

That's pretty egregious.

What did they discover worked of all of those modalities where they're things that worked better than others,

where there are different use cases for the different modalities.

So on mentoring candidate, they just pooped that totally.

Yeah, it's not possible to can't do that.

We never used those people.

Yeah.

Which is just straight-up lie.

It's just a straight-up lie.

And we'll get into some examples that kind of prove that that's a straight-up lie.

Well, why don't we just get into that?

So what's a good example of somebody becoming a Manchurian candidate?

Well, and mentoring candidate is a compartmentalized trained assassin that you could trigger somebody to become an assassin.

Why are they called Manchurian candidates?

So there's another document in the files there where CIA officer writing to another CIA officer says he's concerned about reports,

this Korean war stuff, that a group of GIs going through a zone in Manchuria were captured and hypnosis was used on them.

That's the plot of the Manchurian candidate in CIA documents before the book was written or published.

It's not just pulled out and over.

Might take on all this in terms of the politics and the ethics is the CIA military would be negligent

and guilty of dereliction of duty if they didn't look into this, didn't have expertise.

Because obviously these kind of people were being run at us by terrorists for intelligence agencies.

So give me some of the early psychiatrists that were kind of pioneering these methods.

So again, this is all documents for sure.

Within MKulture, which is the same in other programs, there's kind of three categories of projects.

There's 149 of them total.

A third of them are just straightforward sort of chemical procurement industrial contracts.

A third of them, the investigator who's some professor somewhere, is unwitting, means he doesn't know what CIA money because it's funneled through a front organization,

which they called a cutout.

And then a third of them roughly are cleared at top secret.

They know it's CIA money.

So two top secret cleared guys were Martin Orn and Jolly West.

So Martin Orn being, and it says in the documents, the purpose of the project that says the amount of money and so on in the year,

the purpose was studying hypnotic and dissociative states.

So for sure they were working on that.

And Martin Orn was aware of GHS to Brooks and back and forth.

So Jolly West is famous for several different things.

One is killing an elephant at Oklahoma City Zoo with a dose of LSD.

He also was sort of involved in the UCLA violence project, which was when Reagan was the governor.

The idea there was to implant electrodes in prisoners' brains.

And then when they released sex offenders, track them.

And if they go outside the allowed perimeter, send them a signal and paralyze them temporarily.

And that was shut down before it got started.

Louis Jolly West was involved in that.

He interviewed Timothy McVeigh, Oklahoma City Bomber.

So here's Oklahoma City Bomber.

Louis Jolly West is over in LA.

There's lots of psychiatrists everywhere.

By random chance they had Louis Jolly West come and invest interview Timothy McVeigh.

Why do you think he interviewed the Oklahoma City Bomber, Timothy McVeigh?

Legend has it that in 1943 the Navy tried to teleport a ship in what's now known as the Philadelphia experiment.

And it kind of worked.

It disappeared, reappeared, and then half the crew got atomically fused into the ship's walls.

Others just vanished.

No one was where they were supposed to be.

Talk about a breakdown in communication.

And you know who was leading the whole project?

My favorite, the mid-century anti-gravity inventor Thomas Townsend Brown.

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Now back to the show.

This is all public domain.

McVeigh said when they took him to Tinker Air Force Base,

they removed a computer chip from his buttock.

What?

This is all, this is not conspiracy theory.

This is facts that I got out of public domain.

Was he, did he have any criminal background?

Where do you think he was implanted with this thing?

Like to was he at UCLA?

Because Jolly West was obviously head of psychiatry at UCLA.

Was he, was there any connections between him and Jolly before the bombing?

Not that I know of.

But they were moving.

It wouldn't have to be him.

I mean, it could be, there's lots of people in the military, right?

They were moved a computer chip from his butt.

It's fucking weird.

Which means they know exactly where he was every minute or every day up to the time of the bombing.

And then you hear things like Charles Manson, responsible for the most famous murders,

Tate LaBianca murders, Sharon Tate, famous actress at the apex of her career,

murdered in cold blood while pregnant with Roman Polanski's, I don't know, son or daughter.

And we now know from Tom O'Neill's amazing book, Chaos.

Very amazing book.

Amazing book.

And just hard headed journalism over decades.

He started as like this, you know, beat reporter,

like looking into, you know, it was like the anniversary of the Manson murders.

He was just going to do an article and then he met Vincent Bugliosi,

who was the lead prosecutor on the case who wrote the book's Helter Skelter,

and realized, oh my god, this narrative is entirely off.

So it's all cover story.

It's all cover story and realized that Manson in 1967 was going in consistently

to the Hade Ashbury Free Medical Clinic in San Francisco.

Well, you mean the one that Louis Jolly and West was at?

Exactly.

And Jolly West had an office there.

And then you have this like transformation of this guy from this petty criminal

who's being caught and released to this like sex god cult leader musician,

you know, in LA, who's like living with one of the beach boys.

Right.

And it's just this like, you know, day and night sort of thing.

So I guess the meta question here is if you have a guy like Manson,

who's an M. K. Ultra patient, and then you have a guy like McVeigh,

who's an M. K. Ultra patient, these people are committing horrific acts.

Why would the government, like the CIA, like a guy who had top secret clearance

for the CIA, Jolly West, or any of these people program American citizens

to murder other American citizens?

Well, that's the question.

So probably because their ethics are a little off number one.

Yeah.

But we don't know.

It could be that Jolly West was just sort of a secondary character of the show

because he's not going to be the only mentoring candidate creator on the planet.

Can you create a chain of mentoring candidates?

So this is really creepy.

But what if the psychiatrist themselves is a mentoring candidate

and they are doing treatments that they're not even aware of to their patients?

I'd advise not going to that psychiatrist.

I know, but how does anybody know?

I mean, you would document all these people who are cutouts and not even connected explicitly.

And then what if they're themselves compartmentalized?

So as I always say, we know the tiny tip of the iceberg.

The whole iceberg is just who knows what's going on down there.

It's exactly like the Epstein story, right?

Yeah.

So we know it exists.

We know it's a trafficker.

And we know he supposedly killed himself.

See, I had to kill himself who was murdered in jail.

Who else has been prosecuted?

Him and his girlfriend.

That's it in the United States.

Just this girlfriend.

Who's gotten the heat?

Now Prince Andrew.

Yeah, but some expendable form guy.

Yeah.

None of the people who actually committed the crimes.

And then all of the people in the documents all happen to not commit any crimes.

You know, most of them say we didn't go to the island.

It's absolutely preposterous.

Okay, I have a crazy question about him.

Do you think he was an M.K. ultra patient?

I have no idea, but the thing is it's not just like some crazy conspiracy theory.

It's actually realistically possible that any and a whole bunch of these guys were.

Can I give you my crazy Epstein M.K. ultra theory?

Oh, you'll be in trouble if you don't.

Okay.

So, Manson, if you look at who he modeled his life off of,

it was Stranger in a Strange Land, Robert Heinlein,

this like 1968 or nine bestseller sci-fi book.

I believe he calls his son Don Michael Valentine,

who was like the lead character in the book,

and he even calls his parole officer, a guy named Roger Smith,

I believe he calls him Jubal.

Jubal Harshal was this protector character in this book.

Manson sent you an email.

I don't know if you saw it.

Oh, I don't.

You know the TV show FBI?

Oh, yeah.

What was this again?

So it's a fiction about FBI,

and they're always getting the bad guys.

And there's the woman who's sort of like the head,

but the actual operational guy who's always checking stuff

and looking on the screen and assigning people to go here and there.

His name is Jubal Valentine.

Well, there you go.

A mashup of two names in Stranger of a Strange Land.

It's not random.

That's not random, clearly.

So whether it's just some screenwriter with a sense of humor

who read that kind of stuff or...

Well, this is where it gets really creepy.

I'm like, do you think that LSD was given to Manson

or he was dozed up made to be extremely impressionable?

We know that on a record at the time,

there was a program called Operation Midnight Climax

where...

Actually, it's a sub-project within agriculture.

Okay.

Operation Midnight Climax is sort of an informal name for it.

But it existed.

So it existed and they were dosing up hippies off the street

in the hate Ashbury,

putting them behind a one-way mirror,

and then viewing them with prostitutes and stuff.

How they behave.

So here's a wrinkle on that story.

So that was mostly in San Francisco, a little bit in New York.

The guy who was sort of running that was a former...

whatever the DA was called before.

I can't remember the name of it before it was called the DA.

So he was involved in various things

that had to do with intelligence.

So he was running it.

And he's quoted as saying,

his name was George White,

something along the lines of,

where else could a good American boy rape,

murder, and kill with impunity?

Jesus Christ.

That's what he said in public.

That was the head of the...

Equalization of the DA at the time,

the drug enforcement agent.

He was the head of Operation Midnight Climax.

I know, but then he became the head of the DA.

It's not a low level.

So none of these guys the same with the psychiatrists.

It's just some, you know,

off the grid person in the basement somewhere.

These are top psychiatrists,

top government people,

top secret cleared.

So creepy.

Okay, so here's my question.

Okay.

If they're doing stuff like that,

what I think is,

if you have a guy who's a literate

who's modeling his life off the book,

he can't read the book,

but the book becomes the template for his life,

a stranger in a strange land,

Charles Manson.

He was probably read the book

while dosed up on LSD or ketamine or something.

Could be.

I don't know, speculating.

But if that's the case,

I wonder if the same thing happened with Epstein

because Epstein started at Dalton School,

which was, you know, prep school in New York

for no apparent reason

wasn't qualified to work there.

He jumped from nowhere to 300 million in a blink.

Yeah, well that,

so that was Dalton,

and then Barrister and all the other stuff,

but even Dalton, you know,

I think he was engaging in underage,

you know, relations with his students at the time

was unqualified for that job,

was like this street kid,

and gets the job there.

I believe the guy who gives him a job

is guy named Donald Barr.

And Donald Barr was a former highly-cleared Navy guy,

and he wrote a book called Space Relations.

And it's all about using underage sex as compromise,

but it's about this guy that is going to another planet

and then ends up being groomed by this other woman,

and the woman almost could be like Elaine,

or like one of his handlers or something.

So you have another case

where it's like his life seemed to be modeled off the book.

And so I wonder if there was some sort of weird screening

or he was made to be very impressionable,

and then he was, you know,

this book was somehow the model or template for his life.

Here's where it gets even crazier.

Donald Barr's son is William Barr.

William Barr was the attorney general under Trump

and under Bush 41.

Under Trump, when Epstein got arrested,

and as the acting attorney general,

he went and visited Epstein's jail cell

and met with his cellmate,

this guy of Rainstone Reyes,

who mysteriously died six months later.

What an acting attorney general ever visits

the jail cell of a random person who's committed a crime.

That's crazy.

But here's where it gets crazier.

Bill Barr was the CIA intern in 1974, 1975,

around the church committee.

He was a Senate CIA intern.

Cool.

So as far as like obstructing justice

and possibly deleting records, you know,

around MKUltra,

like that would be the perfect place to do it.

The story on MKUltra records is,

they were all destroyed by Richard Helms and Cindy Gottlieb.

But they somehow found seven boxes of documents

in a storage facility somewhere.

And then those are the documents that Gott released eventually.

So that's called a limited hangout.

That's actually the CIA's term,

which is a little bit of information out,

cover up the greater information.

It's a standard operating strategy.

So I wonder if Bill Barr was like covering up for his dad's,

you know, horrible.

This is crazy speculation.

Right.

I'm speculating.

I have no idea.

But it's fair.

It's a weird fact pattern.

Have you ever heard of a woman named Patty Hearst?

William Randolph Hearst's daughter.

Who was kidnapped by the Libyan,

Symbione's Liberation Army?

Tell me this story.

So William Randolph Hearst,

for people that don't know,

is the model for Orson Welles citizen Kane.

He is the premier,

kind of publisher of, you know,

the biggest newspapers,

San Francisco Chronicle and stuff,

and you know, in the U.S.

and specifically California.

Right.

This is connected into Jim Jones and Jones Town as well.

Okay.

So Patty Hearst boyfriend,

who's name I just forget now,

he was observed and was reported in public domain,

on site at the People's Temple location in Yucaya, California,

before they moved to South America.

Then Donald DeFries,

who was a petty criminal,

same thing, couldn't read a book.

He was transferred within the prison system

to a new location where he walked out

of the prison into the public.

And then a psychological warfare expert

with the Army in the Vietnam War

came over under cover of the Black Cultural Association,

met with him repeatedly,

gave him his codename of CINQUE, five.

And then,

with the one behold,

he kidnaps Patty Hearst.

So the story is that the Symbianese Liberation Army

came into the apartment of Patty Hearst and the boyfriend,

knocked the boyfriend out,

so he's just an innocent bystander,

who happened to be at Jim Jones three months earlier.

And then they take Patty Hearst,

and they terrorize her sensory deprivation,

sensory isolation,

hold her in a closet for weeks on end.

She now has a new identity,

Tanya, who participates in a bank robbery.

Jesus!

She's convicted.

And then, at trial,

the people testifying that she's been mind-controlled,

include Louis-Jolly and West.

It's just that everything's so interwoven

and interconnected.

So weird.

And then, she gets pardoned by,

can't remember which president.

No,

Jolly West is like this bizarre figure who,

he's like Forest Gump or something,

pops up in all these places,

like hiding the truth.

Like, he,

you know, he saw Jack Ruby.

So Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oswald,

and he sees him in his cell, right,

for it was a 24 hours or something.

And then,

he comes out,

does a press conference,

says Jack Ruby's gone crazy.

And literally,

that was the breaking point.

Actually,

he courted to West,

shot Oswald while having an epileptic seizure.

What?

That's what,

that was what he said.

Because he didn't remember having killed Lee Harvey Oswald, right?

So he probably was an M.K. ultra patient

before having tried Lee Harvey Oswald.

Who doesn't remember shooting somebody?

Serons are on.

We're just jumping around here.

So that's the,

he's claimed amnesia for that all the way long.

So the guy that killed the supposed,

but not really lone gunman of JFK,

M.K. ultra patient,

and then the guy that killed JFK's brother,

RFK,

it was, you know,

a famous presidential candidate,

attorney general under JFK.

He was also probably an M.K. ultra patient,

who I think is still alive.

And to this day,

does not,

says that he has no recollection

of having shot RFK,

Robert F. Kennedy.

Yep.

So crazy.

One of the,

I can't remember the title of the book,

but one of the RFK very well-researched books.

There's a photograph of

the Los Angeles County corner

with a ruler

and he's measuring and counting

the bullet entry holes

because he knows

another person got hit

or RFK got hit.

And there's certain number of,

in the door jams and the walls.

Those add up to more

than the chambers

in the supposed lone shooter's gun.

That's right.

And I believe it was the same corner

who saw JFK,

who wasn't happy about

the treatment of JFK's body

before he examined it

and thought there was some malfeasance there.

And I think it was a lot of gunshots,

specifically from the back

in RFK's case.

And yeah.

The supposed shooter's

four or five,

six feet in front.

That's right.

Sir, hands around.

The shot was

close to range from behind.

That's right.

And I believe Robert F. Kennedy,

because I think he was

giving a speech or something,

falls back

and grabs this guy behind him

and falls down on this guy.

That guy was a

Lockheed skunkwork

spotty guard,

named Eugene Thane Caesar.

Oh, man.

And I believe if you asked

Robert F. Kennedy,

who's obviously now,

you know,

health and human services secretary,

he will say,

I think Eugene Thane Caesar,

that Lockheed security guard,

killed my father.

He would say that or he has?

He would say that.

He would say that.

I think he believes that.

And why?

I'm not doubting him,

but why do you think that's what he believes?

He must have said something.

Oh, I believe he,

no, I'm saying I believe that he,

his publicly said this.

He's publicly said.

A 24-year-old Palestinian man,

named Saran Saran,

shot him with a 22 caliber revolver.

He was hit three times.

Five other people were wounded as well.

Well, I didn't,

first of all, I would dispute

that description of what happened.

Okay.

I don't believe that,

Saran's bullets ever hit my father.

Oh, he was shot from behind

by somebody who was standing behind him

with a gun press

between the two of them and firing.

And that man was almost certainly,

Eugene Thane Caesar,

who was a security guard who had been hired the day before.

So, pretty wild.

And I think he thinks it was all done

at the behest of this guy, Bob Mayhew,

who was the general counsel

for Howard Hughes,

or like the right-hand man for Howard Hughes.

And it's all just so spooky.

You have all these guys who were tied in

with the 54-12 commission at the time,

the sort of interagency coordination group

that I think originally starts out for,

you know, if the president wants to do

some spooky covert action,

it's plausible deniability for him,

it's interagency coordination.

And it turns into this sort of runaway,

you know, deep state faction

that just, you know,

has its own age.

Really runaway or not really?

There's always a question, right?

That's the other...

Yeah, you call it runaway,

but maybe it is always plausible deniability

for the president.

Who knows?

I mean, you do have this famous speech,

obviously, Eisenhower gives

but we're of the military industrial complex

and you have to wonder if he was referring to groups like that.

But, okay, so we're just knocking him down

as far as sacred cow assassinations.

And they just all seem to be related to MK Ultra.

You know, one person that people wonder

about all the time,

not in the kind of political realm,

but in the cultural realm,

is the icon John Lennon,

you know, the lead singer of the Beatles,

who was this obviously counter-culture hero

who was probably viewed as a threat,

you know, by J. Edgar Hoover

or other people.

Well, those guys are definitely unhappy about him.

That's no.

So tell me about his killer

and was he possibly an MK Ultra patient?

I don't know about who controlled him,

but he was sort of like a low-level guy

without a whole ton of money.

Took off on a world tour.

What's his name?

Mark David Chapman.

Mark David Chapman.

He was in a psych hospital in Hawaii for a while.

He comes back and there's,

I can't remember the name of the biography,

but in the biography of him,

in great detail, it describes,

he had a whole bunch of people inside his head.

Robert was the head guy.

I mean, he had MPD, D.I.D.

by description for sure,

if that's all accurate.

The MPD for the audiences.

Multiple personality disorder,

which was renamed dissociative identity disorder at 94.

Did one of the personalities

was it saying you have to kill John Lennon?

That part's not known.

So why do we think that he possibly

was MK Ultra and not just like,

you know, MPM, you know,

multiple personality disorder,

you might associate with some sort of generic mental illness

or something.

Maybe could be don't, for sure.

Okay, so hard to say there.

It's not just wild out of nowhere,

theorize it.

It's realistically possible

that he could have been handled.

Well, is there anything else,

any other evidence besides

just having multiple personality disorder?

Let's see.

What's the,

because I think in examples.

Old details are so many on them.

What's the book that was published in the 50s?

There was a trigger for him?

Oh, a catcher in the right.

Catcher in the right.

Yeah.

So he went to a bookstore

and got that book,

which maybe was the trigger

before doing the shooting.

Oh, interesting.

Like the book triggered.

Oh, Jesus.

Maybe.

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That is wild.

Well, I think Sir Hanserhand,

going back to the Robert F. Kennedy thing,

I believe he was writing in his diary at the time,

like,

must kill RFK or something,

like he had this sort of,

like it was like he had been programmed.

You can't,

I've looked at that in a different books.

You can't tell

is it just psychotic,

rambling,

obsessing,

or is it programming?

And he also, like,

didn't,

he had like memory lapses, right?

Like, didn't he have some, like,

he was traumatized

in the Middle East as a kid,

because there's a lot of war going on

and his apartment was bombed

and he saw some dismembered bodies and stuff.

So here's a trauma foundation

for being a dissociative guy.

Speaking of trauma foundation,

you read some of these Epstein files

and you start to go beyond,

this is just sick,

you know, pedophile,

elite, powerful people,

fulfilling their bizarre fantasies,

and into a territory

of their systematically conditioning,

some of these young people,

and creating what you used to call

the trauma foundation

so that these people are susceptible

and impressionable to future sort of manipulation.

Do you think there was some sort of

undercurrent there with the Epstein then?

Well, first of all,

it's a bunch of sex offender guys.

There's huge financial part to it,

sex trafficking.

I mean, that's a multi-billion dollar industry, right?

So there's their own personal,

sexual, whatever.

There's the money.

There's the scoring points

with the other guys

and being high-ranking in that subculture.

And then who knows what else?

Pretty bizarre, man.

It's a weird world.

You read that stuff and you're like,

oh my god.

Like it really,

not only does it sort of indicate

the super-conspiracy theorists,

like people who believed in pizza gate,

because it looks like

in a hot dog,

these foods were like code words for children.

And so it was just gross.

Not only is it vindication for that,

but it's vindication for people

who I think viewed

like the world more metaphysically

and thought elite power structures

weren't just vying for power,

but maybe we're doing the bidding

of some evil entities above them.

What would drive anybody to do these sorts of things?

It's like, I think less Wexner,

who was Epstein's one of his closest associates.

And I think he provided him

with a house in Ohio and stuff.

Piles of money.

Yeah, Piles of money.

He was the Victoria Secret founder

and CEO.

So do we think this guy has access to women?

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, there you go.

But also, I believe in the 80s

or 90s less Wexner is writing in his diary

and he's talking about being haunted

by a divak.

And a divak is I think in Hebrew, it means demon.

And so you get into these weird territory

where it's like, you're not even doing this

for your own sex, sadistic, twisted pleasure.

You're doing this because you're doing the bidding

of some higher, you know, even more evil thing.

Well, no, we're definitely outside the documents.

Yeah, we are.

We're outside regular psychiatry.

Yes.

But now you're into supernatural,

multidimensional entities

which then takes us to aliens.

Sure.

Who knows?

I don't pretend to know the answers to all this stuff.

Well, speaking of supernatural entities.

I know you're not interested in aliens at all.

Not at all.

It's not who cares.

You know, maybe we'll get to that at some point.

But no, it's funny.

One of the people you mention

in the documents as far as, you know,

is psychiatrists deeply implicated at MK Ultra

as a guy named Michael Persinger.

And do you know about his God Helmet,

the Persinger God Helmet?

Tell us about that.

Well, there's Martin orn Jolly West

were on the board of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation

that was formed in 1992.

And there's, if you ever watched a movie called Star Wars,

there's the dark, right?

Universal themes.

Yes.

1980 comprehensive textbook of psychiatry

that I studied is like the Bible of psychiatry.

Three volumes.

It's like literally this thick.

Way at the back of volume two,

there's a small section called Topics of Special Interest,

which is irrelevant stuff that we thought we'd throw in way at the back.

And a chapter called Incessed,

which is not a relevant topic in psychiatry.

In that chapter, there's a reference to a 1955 study

saying that Incessed occurs in one family out of a million in North America.

Those were the medical facts in 1980.

So there's been massive cover-up of childhood trauma,

childhood sexual abuse, sexual harassment,

on an rape.

There was no rape crisis centers around.

It was all completely irrelevant to the medical health of the population.

Is the implication of these psychiatrists

who are causing trauma being on this false memory foundation?

Is it like they're gaslighting the people that they've traumatized

by saying their false memories?

Or like what's the...

Well, I think it's...

This is the speculation too.

I'm going to speculate if you don't mind.

Sure.

I know you don't like speculation.

I love speculation.

Oh, I misread that.

It's hard to tell.

So I think there's...

If you look at the people on the board,

and the people have been active in the false memory,

what was that organization trying to do?

For sure.

For a fact, publicly stated.

Get rid of multiple personality.

Nobody's diagnosing it.

Nobody's treating it.

Discreted it.

Ridiculate.

Shut it down.

So what were their motives?

It wasn't just one thing.

So there's a bunch of people who are sort of memory experts,

and it doesn't fit with their model of memory

that you can induce amnesia,

or even have amnesia just on your own as part of PTSD.

So they don't like that.

So they want to shut that down.

Then there's...

I think a group of people who actually were mistakenly falsely accused of incest.

So they want some organization to help them out.

Then there's people who were actually incest perpetrators.

They needed defense.

So it's all false memories.

And then there's a group of people who just think that's all about

your stupid Freudian theory, and we've grown past that,

and we want to shut down all that nonsense.

And then there's Jolly West, Martin Orn,

that there are motives being to cover up the mentoring candidate programs,

because therapists are starting to tune into multiple personalities,

which didn't exist back in the day, hardly.

And we're just starting to hear stories of,

I was taken to a military base, I was taken to a lab,

I was spun around physically,

did things with goggles, all kinds of experimental stuff,

to create all the personalities.

So this is leaking out into public.

So that better get shut down.

So there's multiple motives there.

You said spun around and disoriented?

Yeah, it's all, what do you, if you go to Abu Ghraib,

we're going to Anval Bay,

where we've all been by looking at photos, right?

What do you see being done?

Torture, food deprivation, sensory deprivation,

isolation, hooding, sitting and forced postures for hours,

hours, and hours, and hours, and hours.

Abu Ghraib being forced to naked, do sex stuff

with other male Muslim guys with a female US officer watching,

mock at dog attacks, electric shock.

There's photographs of all this stuff,

and insulting the religion,

and literally physically stomping on the destroy in the coronavirus.

Why would, I mean, but doing that to our,

it's horrible to do that to anyone.

Doing that to our own citizens feels even crazier.

Well, so jumping back to Guantanamo Bay,

why would we be doing all this stuff that's just classical brainwashing

mind control technology?

So suspicion, they're actually trying to,

like Guantanamo Bay is actually a training breeding ground

for entering candidate double agents who then get released.

Wow.

Go back home, maybe.

Oh, interesting.

So it's like the worst case outcome is you inflict a lot of pain

on the person.

Right.

They give you vital information, you break them.

The best case is that you can actually create some split personality

or something and then send them back into their home turf,

their home countries.

Right.

Jesus Christ.

That's gnarly, man.

I mean, that makes sense.

It makes sense.

The odds that it's never been done anywhere seems slim to me.

Well, yeah, no.

I mean, that definitely has been, that's crazy.

There's a little side story since I'm Canadian by birth.

I've got two passports now.

There's a guy named Omar Keeter.

I'm not quite sure how you pronounce his last name,

who was a terrorist in the Middle East.

I think it was Afghanistan.

It was either a rocker, Afghanistan.

And he threw a grenade that wounded several American service guys.

Well, how do you get his hands on the grenade?

How old was he?

12.

So 12-year-old kid, a platoon of US soldiers,

invades his village way up in the middle of nowhere.

There's a firefight.

He gets shot.

This is according to the US military.

He's under rubble.

He gets pulled out.

He gets taken back to here and here.

It ends up at Guantanamo Bay.

Because he's a non-terrorist.

And I don't know if it's true or not true,

but they say that they are interested in him

because his father may have communicated with Osama bin Laden.

So we're going to hold a 12-year-old kid who's now 18, 1920

for almost a decade to try and get information out of him

because we can't get that information out in a couple of weeks.

And he's a terrorist.

And then he gets released and goes back to Canada

and Canada gives him 10 million and plays to stay.

It's such stupid stories,

such ridiculous behavior for what purpose?

It's very weird.

See, you think there's this ulterior motive?

I don't know if it's just Guantanamo

because he mentioned cowboy craziness

or there's some sort of ulterior motive or plan.

What are the odds of a 12-year-old kid

knows anything about anything?

Speaking of careers that are split off

from some hermetically sealed,

almost encrypted part of themselves

that's carrying a message into kind of deep foreign territory.

One of the craziest stories from your book

is about a woman named Candy Jones.

What's her deal?

The control of Candy Jones is her autobiography,

not autobiography.

So she was a pin-up girl in World War II

in the Pacific theater,

came back,

was just kind of living a fairly regular life,

much going on,

and then there's a guy,

who's not going to remember this name either,

but there's a guy who was a military intelligence guy

who was living in the same building

who kind of interacted with her a bit,

and she ended up getting worked on

by this psychiatrist,

had a new identity

that was doing career assignments

and who knows exactly what kind of assignments.

And then she wrote a whole Aussie

and our biographer wrote about that in detail.

Did she, what were the career assignments?

Where did she go?

Philippines.

I can't remember the list of places.

It may be Taiwan, I think, probably.

It was over Eastern Asia.

Yeah.

The gifted and talented education program

in the United States.

This often comes up

as possibly related

to some of these mind control experiments,

but being done systematically on young people.

You have a lot of people

now coming out saying

they had me drink a pink drink

that erased my memory

or I was told to stare at a sine wave

and collapse the sine wave

or look at a piece of metal

and see how I mentally interacted with the metal.

Sometimes being spun around

on people's vestibular systems being messed with.

I think there's something called the G-lock

or something like that.

I don't know that.

Have you heard anything

about the gifted and talented education program?

A few sort of floating rumors that's about it.

Okay.

But people have told me

whatever the program was called,

that how did they get into it?

Well, their dad took them over there

because they had dirt on their dad

because he was a sex offender and so on.

Another route is after school programs,

special school programs,

and then the special school program

got transferred over to the base.

So I've heard those stories.

Do you think any of this stuff,

do UFOs ever come up in your research?

Do you think any of this relates to UFOs?

So I've actually touched on that a few times

at risk of being dismissed

as a UFO conspiracy nut, of course.

You're in good company.

Are you outranking me, actually?

Yeah.

Just a low level guy.

Yeah.

You can look very sane next to me.

So I'm wearing a ridiculous shirt

that says, believe and alien on.

I'm wide open to aliens.

We know that there's multiple,

multiple, multiple, multiple reports

of visual sighting from the ground,

visual sighting from the pilot,

tennis, radar sighting from the ground,

radar sighting from the jet,

turning right angles at Mach 3,

jumping up 80,000 feet in seconds.

It's all documented that these things

have been observed over and over and over,

which maybe we can get the Roswell on a second here.

So there's clearly craft,

and it's kind of like taking the lid off

a little bit by little bit by little bit,

it's all mockery, mockery, mockery, mockery.

But now it's not mockery anymore.

Why?

We're not talking about those crazy UFOs anymore.

We're talking about UAPs.

So that's sort of a sanitizing,

take the bad or off.

And the military and the government

are saying there's UAPs

that are not from us.

So, okay, so is that cover story

for some advanced program of our own.

But it's not any technology

that's anywhere near the public domain.

So there definitely are UAPs flying around.

Do they have biological occupants

from other planets?

Just based on that information

you can't say for sure.

But it's not just a made-up

by nut cases thing.

It's an officially acknowledged phenomenon

by the government.

And if it's not the Russians,

it's not the Chinese.

It's not us.

Yeah.

It was kind of run out of possibilities here.

Well, also if you think of UFOs

as this like sacred tree,

like a UFO itself is just kind of a byproduct.

It's this like, you know,

it's the tip of the iceberg,

which is this object

that's flying in ways that we don't understand.

And then if you think of that as

the tip of the spear

on like a deeper kind of worldview,

metaphysical worldview

is just much more expanded

than this kind of materialist reductionist,

you know, kind of overly scientific view

that we have today.

I wonder if government or power structures

think about people who are seeking truth

and looking systematically into UFOs

as some sort of like, you know, threat

because it's inherently kind of in a reverent search.

It's you're looking for, you know, authority

beyond the government

or you're looking for, again, metaphysics,

that's very kind of expanded.

And so I do sometimes wonder if there are,

there are initiatives in the government

to kind of manufacture division

and stoke conflict within the UFO community

or instigate belief

in sort of bizarre ways or...

So without having any evidence,

I'm sure there are.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm sure there are too.

The way intelligence operations operate.

Yeah.

You're always sowing to sand

back in one side, back in the other side.

Yeah.

And if you just see it as a huge theater distraction

what's it being distracted from?

Well, it's because there really are aliens

and somebody in the government is interacting with them

or it's our own advanced weaponry

that we want to keep a lid on.

Yeah.

I know one or the other.

I know enough to know that there's some aliens

is a, you know, you are kind of being presumptuous

by saying aliens as far as, you know,

them being from another planet.

And I'm saying not you, I'm saying anybody.

I'm never presumptuous.

And you're never presumptuous.

Now you do stick with the facts.

I don't.

But...

Well, I just like to use facts as the base.

I think that's good.

I don't mind going on.

That's what you have to do.

That's what you have to do with these things.

And I actually think it's irresponsible not to speculate

if per what you said,

you're being given little bits and pieces

of information strategically per these limited hangouts.

If you're not trying to figure out what's actually going on

and you're just taking at face value

what you're being given, that's an issue.

If you're being given the data set by somebody

who's trying to throw you off.

Do you have to sip on the Kool-Aid while you're doing that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, that's the thing.

You have to sip on it and then say this Kool-Aid taste bad

and spit it out or something, you know?

So it's a really tough,

these things are tough to look into

because the people that are the bad actors

are often the sources of information.

So it's a weird space.

But yeah, I do wonder how much interaction

the UFO stuff and the MK Ultra stuff is.

I mean, okay.

Why don't we...

There's zero in the MK Ultra in related documents.

Yeah.

Not one word.

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The only connection...

I think I can...

Yeah, the only connection I have

is I believe in Jacques Vallet.

Jacques Vallet is his famous French godfather.

You're aware of him.

Yeah, he's just amazing.

UFO researchers.

The basis for Francois Truffaut's character

in Close Encounters of the Third Kind.

He was jailed in a high next assistant and blue book.

And he was also one of the kind of early pioneers

of the internet.

He helped build Arpenet under Doug Engelbart.

He has these like series of diaries

where he just writes about his meetings that he has.

And they're called Forbidden Science.

And he is like, I think five volumes at this point.

And he talked about,

I believe, Sydney Gottlieb.

Or some of his...

Some people in the CIA,

you know, technical staff services like that world.

Them having books on UFOs

and trying to understand what's going on with them.

Right.

Like not really understanding what's going on with them.

So there's some sort of interest

on the part of people who are clearly deeply

implicated in the mind control stuff

in the UFO stuff.

And then that book I mentioned Martin Cannon Controllers.

He says, abductions are just...

Like alien abductions are just a smoke screen for MK Ultra.

Like the most famous abduction

was Betty and Barney Hill in 1961.

They were there.

They actually say, you know,

in their hypnotic regression,

the beings look like Nazis or whatever.

So then you get these Operation Paperclip Scientists brought over.

There's a very cool X-Files episode.

I don't remember the whole story,

but the UFO crashes are something.

And the woman is being manipulated

and she's probably going to get an anal probe

and everything by the aliens.

And then all of a sudden it's human beings.

And then the boss guy says,

okay, rinse her out.

Right.

So yeah, you know what?

I think certain abductions have been that.

And then this is where it's so weird.

It's kind of the perfect smoke screen for Intel

because I also think there are real alien abductions.

So the Betty and Barney Hill thing,

I think was a genuine abduction.

But also, you know, the other weird fact around that

is Charles Douglas Jackson, who worked at...

He was like, you know, part of the psychological strategy board.

And ran psychological warfare for the United States in the 50s.

And I believe was that time magazine was responsible

for the Zapruder film.

So the missing frames in the JFK assassination video.

Like this guy was clearly sort of like the missing frames

in the jail cell for Epstein.

Exactly.

The whole minute missing in the raw data.

Crazy.

So CD Jackson is meeting with the Betty and Barney Hill

a few weeks after they get abducted.

It's back to Epstein's.

Yeah.

So what if there's...

Let's say it was accidentally missing.

Which is how slack is that operation.

But okay, everything's fine.

Then a minute later he's dead.

You can't even die of a fixation in one minute.

It takes longer.

No, it's ridiculous.

It's ridiculous.

That case smells so bad.

It's so obvious.

And, you know, I don't know.

It's funny to me to see a lot of like the podcast circuit

is like all like up and arms now.

And I'm like, we've known this for five years.

It's like just like just look at the facts.

Like it's so obvious.

You know, not that they shouldn't be up and arms.

But they should have been up and arms many years ago.

Right.

But the human energy field.

We've been covering so much dark stuff.

And I think the positive element of this is that we all have

these kind of bioelectric electromagnetic fields.

And I think later MK Ultra stuff unfortunately deals with like

chip implantations and stuff that is kind of freaky and weird.

Putting implants in dolphins brains.

And guiding them to drop bombs.

Is what?

Who did that?

CIA military.

Documented.

No way.

Being able to remote control a dolphin to drop a bomb.

What's that?

The day of the dolphin.

Yeah.

That movie.

Yeah, it's about John Lilley.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

John Lilley is the actual real life character.

So the mysterious organized government organization comes over

and starts jacking around with.

He's working with dolphins and giving them LSD, which John Lilley actually did.

And then what they do is they get a dolphin.

They attach the bomb to the dolphin.

The dolphin is supposed to go under the camera.

It's the vice president of the president's fishing boat and go to release

the thing that blows up.

And then that gets all shut down.

But the documents describe using brain electrode implant.

Off he goes, control the route,

and drop the bomb off.

That's described in the documents.

Jesus Christ.

There's so little veer into that before we get to the energy fields.

And so in M. Keltzer and related documents,

there's implanting electrodes in animal brains to control or behavior.

There's a guy Jose Delgado who's a neurosurgeon at Yale.

He's got a published a book called Towards a Psychoscivilized Society.

And he says what we need to do is implant electrodes in the brains

of the entire population, not counting the lead generals on the top politicians.

And that's how we're going to make the society psychoscivilized.

What?

It's stated in the book clearly.

It's the mark of the beast.

Yeah.

And so there's photographs in medical journals.

One is a 16-year-old girl said electrode in her brain.

And Delgado, the technical events he made was,

you don't have to have the wire connected.

You can use a remote transmitter to activate the electrode.

So depending on which electrode is being activated, she's normal.

She's strumming on her guitar.

She's pounding furiously on the wall where she's just like out of it.

This is photographs of this girl.

And then in monkeys,

and one of the stupid cover stories is,

oh yeah, we were trying this on cats.

We had the cat with an electrode.

We're sending it off into the world, but it ran off in front of her car and got killed.

So we never did that again.

So this is how it leaks into Hollywood as fiction, but it's actually a fact.

The, in its treatment of epilepsy is why we're putting electrodes in people's brains.

All 100% documented.

Then there's a guy in Tulane University,

Robert Heath, psychiatrist,

who's funded by CIA and multiple branches of the military.

He's doing brain electrode implants,

and has the remote transmitter.

He's carrying the well-known mental disease of homosexuality,

because according to the American psychiatric system...

Being sarcastic for anybody taking that.

Wasn't sarcastic if we jumped back in time to turn 72.

Sure.

Didn't you talk about attempts to program somebody's sexuality, turning somebody...

But this Robert Heath guy will come back to Robert Heath at Tulane.

Electroed in the gay guy's brain,

exposed him to heterosexual pornography over and over and over and over and over to condition them.

While you're stimulating the electrode to put him in a state of pre-Orgasmic arousal,

so you're pairing arousal with heterosexuality.

And towards the end, this is all published in mainstream medical journal

that I've actually published in myself.

Towards the end, they brought in a female prostitute,

had her have sex with the guy,

while they're monitoring his brain waves,

and then they debrief him in the prostitute.

And she says, yeah, he functioned well, normal.

No way.

And then to the paper is,

so he was cured of homosexuality

with only one relapse in the first six months.

She said enough that only one reads it.

But that's what?

That's in the mainstream literature.

Well, just like the Tuskegee syphilis study is published in mainstream journal.

This is crazy.

That's crazy.

So that's the crazy stuff that goes on in the psychiatry literature

and in the official manual of psychiatry,

hidden stuff.

Jesus man.

So we're just more,

I mean, John Lilly,

who we were talking about,

the inspiration for the day of the dolphin,

he would do,

he kind of invented the isolation tank,

and he would take a lot of ketamine

and get into these dissociative states.

And he even like,

I think at one point summoned to this thing,

he called the SSI,

the solid state entity,

and would communicate,

oh yeah, communicate with this sort of alien intelligence

and he wrote a book called,

I think was it human programming and metaprogramming?

I think so.

So you,

just on the note of what you're saying,

it just feels like humans are far more like programmable.

Then we don't think of ourselves as suggestible.

We think of ourselves as sort of fixed.

But in fact,

we're way more impressionable than we'd ever believed.

Well, just take a look at Hollywood.

In the 50's,

we were hunting communists,

some of whom were communists in a bunch of work.

And like,

everybody was on board with,

we got to clean up America here.

So that was pretty unanimous.

And now it's flipped to the opposite extreme,

where if you're not way over on the left,

try finding work in Hollywood.

Yeah, it's really hard.

And so then,

that's just the programmability of people in general.

They swing over here.

They swing over there.

Humans are extremely mimetic.

And, you know,

you just sort of,

ideas are fashion statements.

And you see it especially on social media

is like really amplifies this,

because it's a hall of mirrors.

Massively.

So if you're not like saying the thing

that's like really popular right now,

then you're sort of,

you're falling behind

and you're not staying relevant or something.

There's a guy in British Columbia.

So me being an originally Canadian,

he just got fined

it was something like $750,000

for making

just stating an opinion.

Yeah.

That there's only two genders and two sexes.

That's insane.

You got to find

three quarters of a million dollars.

That is so crazy.

That is so crazy.

So that's what's the difference between that

and the McCarthy era.

Do you think,

do you think people like Jolly West

tried to affect culture via celebrity?

Like I actually,

I met a woman who

was Charlton Heston's daughter-in-law.

It's really sweet lady.

And if you're out there,

hello.

And she, you know,

Charlton Heston obviously,

you know, it's legendary actor,

but Charlton Heston was this NRA champion.

Yeah, yeah.

So he was this, you know,

natural rifle association, you know,

when shootings would happen,

he would sort of be in the counter rally,

saying we, you know,

protect the second amendment,

the right to bear arms.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

That's right.

And that, you know,

and if anything,

it mitigates violence and all this stuff.

And then I found out...

There's some data to support that.

In a reverse sense,

there's fewer deaths

at home

from guns

in how homes that don't have guns.

Yeah.

Hello.

It's pretty obvious.

That's a good stat.

And for me,

this is not,

I moved from California to Texas.

So I'm not,

this is not a polemic on,

you know,

I'm not anti-gun necessarily.

But I do find it interesting

that a guy in Jolly West,

who's clearly programmed

a lot of violence

at high levels in the US,

is best friends

with the guy who's

the head of the NRA

and this gun champion.

That seems interesting to me.

Is there something there?

You keep asking me questions

as if I might know the answer.

I don't know.

You know, we're speculating.

We're in kind of really

murky territory.

Well, obviously,

it's a huge industry, right?

Yeah.

So there's the financial part of it.

There's the Gungho

Cowboy part.

In Canada,

I lived up in the Canadian Arctic.

I probably killed

two or three hundred time again,

which is a type of gross

that turns white in the winter.

I owned a rifle.

I never did shoot a moose,

but I owned a rifle.

So, you know,

I was out in the woods

walking around hunting,

killing,

eating,

and southern Canada

shot lots of rabbits

and cooked them and ate them.

So I'm not,

you know,

you can't kill the animals,

a type person.

But the amount of gun violence

in the United States,

when you look at the graphs,

like per hundred,

the United States is up here.

How much country is like down here?

Well, that, so this is so

low to control.

It's out of control.

And this is what I'm getting at.

And this is a really weird,

deep, conspiratorial thread

of which we've, you know,

developed a few here.

But it seems like

the things Jolly West

are involved with.

And this cuts to

Tom O'Neill's thesis

with chaos

is the construction

of somebody like a Manson