How the Vatican's Embassies Work | Wendover Productions

0:00Star Wars The Mandalorian and Grogu is now streaming on Disney Plus. What are you waiting for? Hop on. The must-see galactic adventure comes home on Disney Plus. This is the way. Our only chance is to work together. I'm the life this game. Always wear your seatbelt. Star Wars The Mandalorian and Grogu now streaming on Disney Plus. Break Pigey 13. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up require compatibility and availability very 16+. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work,

1:00use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen, and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching, and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsor job credit at andd.com slash podcast. That's indeed.com slash podcast, terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. On the margins, statehood starts to get subjective. There are plenty of countries whose status as sovereign states is never really refuted. France, Japan, the US. There are also some that nearly no one recognizes as sovereign states. The Soari Arab Democratic Republic, Northern Cyprus, South Asatia. In between is the subjective line representing near universal recognition by other countries. There are nations that start to approach this line, exhibiting most tenants of statehood, yet lacking the sort of near universal recognition that leads to the colloquial status of countryhood,

2:02Kosovo and Palestine, most notably. But then directly on the other side of the line is one singular example of a state that simply does not exhibit many, perhaps even most of the traditional characteristics of sovereign statehood, yet enjoys a near universal unequivocal recognition as a sovereign state. That is the Vatican. Perhaps most damningly, the Vatican has no real permanent population. There are always people there, but each really only lives there while they're working there. Vatican's citizenship exists, but nobody is born into it. It isn't passed down from generation to generation. It isn't granted as a birthright, meaning nobody perceives themselves from birth till death as a...well, there actually isn't a word for that. There isn't even a universally recognized term to refer to someone from the Vatican, because nobody's from the Vatican. It is the only country in the CIA World Factbook, for example, that just doesn't have a dominant listed

3:02because everyone who holds Vatican's citizenship was born into another citizenship and nationality and proceeds themselves primarily as Italian, American, Argentinian, whatever. The Vatican also lacks a real economy. Its main economic activity is selling tickets to its museums. It doesn't have a healthcare system. Residents go to Italy for almost all medical care. It doesn't have an independent legal system. Italian law applies in most cases, Italian courts prosecute most crimes, Italian prisons house most of the convicted. There's no formal education system, little commerce beyond a grocery store and some tourist shops, hardly a distinct cultural identity outside of the churches. When you look at it objectively, the Vatican is hardly a nation, and yet it enjoys complete, near universally recognized sovereign statehood. Of course, around the world, there are plenty of non-sovereign entities that view themselves as sovereign and therefore operate within a given territory as if they were, but what they lack is international recognition of their sovereignty. The Vatican does have international recognition,

4:02meaning it has the extremely valuable and unique rights to engage in the formal process of international diplomacy. No other church has this right, not Islam, not Judaism, not Hinduism, not even any other Christian denomination. This one church can set up embassies, appoint ambassadors, even set up representation at the United Nations. Historically, there have been a good number of examples of religious authorities holding sovereign territory, but without fail, every single instance faded away, even those of the Catholic Church. For the majority of the last millennium, the papacy exercised, sometimes loose, sometimes firm sovereignty over much of modern-day Italy. In the late 1700s, the papal states were larger than today's Netherlands, and even included an ex-laven France. But this legacy came to an abrupt end on September 20th, 1870, when troops of the newly born Kingdom of Italy marched into Rome and captured it, following a brief battle with papal forces. The Kingdom did offer the papacy ownership and non-sovereign control over the Leonine city,

5:06the area that encompasses today's Vatican city, as well as a sizable annual stipend to pay for the operations of the Holy See and broad guarantees of sovereignty in their operations. After all, the Kingdom still needed to play nice with the church, as Italy was a predominantly Catholic nation, meaning many of its residents were loyal to the Pope. But the Pope quickly rejected Italy's offer since doing so would effectively act. Star Wars, the Mandalorian and Grogu is now streaming on Disney Plus. What are you waiting for? Hop on. The must-see galactic adventure comes home on Disney Plus. This is the way. Our only chance is to work together. On the life of this game, always wear your seatbelt. Star Wars, the Mandalorian and Grogu, now streaming on Disney Plus. Wait, PG-13. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block,

6:09or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online makes sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up require compatibility and availability very 16+. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen, and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching, and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsor job credit at ND.com slash podcast. That's ND.com slash podcast, terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It is recognition of their power over the conquered territory, and since he believed that the church needed sovereignty entirely independent from that of any political power, as they had had for the last millennium. So rather, for the following 60 years, each successive pope from the moment they were elected never left the Vatican.

7:09They believed doing so could be interpreted as accepting the legitimacy of Italian rule. But when Mussolini came into power in 1922, he wanted to win the support of Italian Catholics, so he entered into negotiations with the papacy to resolve the conflict, which finally culminated in the 1929 Lateran Treaty. This, most notably, handed over sovereignty of .19 square miles, or .49 square kilometers of land to the Holy See, thereby forming the smallest independent country in the world. As an independent country, the Vatican does mirror a rough-fect simile of traditional government, but its exact form of governance is entirely unique. It is the only non-hereditary, elected absolute monarchy in the world. One of the many authorities wrapped up in the pope title is effectively King of the Vatican. He is an absolute monarch with unchecked authority over all legislative, executive and judicial decisions. But it is the only instance of an absolute monarchy where the ruler is elected, rather than pulled from a line of succession, as the pope is selected from the pool of cardinals

8:12through the famed Conclave election. Despite his supreme authority, the pope has long delegated his authority to others who actually operationally run the government. That government is what's referred to as the Holy See. Importantly, the Holy See is both the governing body of the Vatican state and the Roman Catholic Church. That's to say, there's zero distinction between the state and the church. They are quite literally the same thing. The Holy See's administrative functions are encompassed by a body called the Roman Curia, which itself is made up of 16 different de castories or departments. The oldest, most powerful and most important de castory is the Secretariat of State, led by the Secretary of State, who effectively acts as the prime minister of the Holy See. Of course, the Secretary of State position, like in any government, is that in charge of diplomatic functions, meaning foreign relations hold a central, supreme position within the Vatican government. One of the functions he supervises is the operations of 117 apostolic non-seaters globally

9:12that effectively function as embassies, but here's where things get weirder. Non-seaters are treated as diplomatic missions, and therefore enjoy all the privileges that embassies and consulates do, like diplomatic immunity, freedom of communication, exemption from local taxes and laws, and more. Yet, the non-seaters don't actually represent the Vatican state. They represent the Holy See. This small distinction adds to the count of anomalies in the ways the Vatican and Holy See operate. The Holy See is, more or less, the government of the Vatican. That government is, in this case, operationally inseparable from the state, but not all governments are. So that means that this is not too different from, say, the American Republican Party, the British Labor Party, the Chinese Communist Party, any governing authority having diplomatic representation abroad. Governance themselves are not typically allowed to do that. But the reason why this is possible at all is that the Holy See, the body in charge of the sovereign state of the Vatican, is itself considered a sovereign entity.

10:16It's not the only instance of a non-territorial organization holding sovereign powers. The UN has some, the Red Cross as well, and the most direct equivalent is that of the sovereign military order of Malta, another Catholic institution. But there's not even broad consensus on why the Holy See itself has sovereignty. Some argue that it's because of the latter in treaty, as in addition to the establishment of the Vatican state, it recognized the Holy See as a sovereign entity. But this is quickly refuted by the fact that across the six decades that the Holy See lacked territory, it was still recognized as a sovereign entity by most of the world. It's still... ...is always where your See built.

11:42There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up require compatibility and availability varies 18 plus. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen, and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching, and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 Sponsored Job Credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast, terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Engaged in formal diplomacy. So the real explanation seems to be in the unsatisfying facts that everyone has always kept treating it as a sovereign entity, and therefore it is one. Interestingly, the Vatican state itself does have some international representation. It's a member of the International Postal Union, the International Telecommunications Union, the World Intellectual Property Organization, and a number of other institutions more closely related to the administration of the city state itself.

12:47Meanwhile, the Holy See is the entity that is more commonly represented in anything relating more to international policymaking. Particularly, it's the entity that does the majority of interfacing with other countries and the United Nations. Just a 15-minute walk from the UN's headquarters, Down Manhattan's 43rd Street, past the mission of the Marshall Islands in India, Down Third Avenue and past the mission of New Zealand, is the Holy See's permanent observer mission to the UN. Within these walls, it's a fairly small operation. There's Archbishop Gabriel Casilla, the Apostolic Nuncio, effectively the head diplomat, two counselors to the Archbishop, five attaches, and handful of college age interns from around the world. While comparatively light in total staffing, this office stays busy, principally in efforts to communicate the Church of Stamson, any and all issues brought forth at the UN. In just the months of April 2024, for example, this mission commented on 13 separate occasions at UN proceedings, with Archbishop Casilla offering statements at UN Main Body Institutions like the General Assembly and Security Council, as well as smaller, more specific institutions like the Sixth Committee, which considers the UN's legal questions, and the permanent forum on indigenous issues.

13:55Not technically a state, but a body administering a sovereign state, the Holy See shares the distinction with Palestine as one of only two non-member observer states at the UN, even if the Holy See itself is not technically a state. On top of a unique standing, the Holy See has a unique backstory as to how it got recognition, which in turn informs its unique role at the UN. It began with a world verging on nuclear war when Pope John the 23rd boldly entered the diplomatic fold like no modern Pope prior. As tensions reached their peak with the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962, the Pope went as far as reaching out directly to Nikita Khrushchev and US leadership, as well as publicly pleading with the non-Catholic populace of the Soviet bloc, and really the world via radio, for peace. This soft but very real influence of perhaps the world's most recognizable moral authority caught the attention of the UN Secretary General, U-Fant. After personally visiting the Vatican, meeting with the new Pope Paul VI, Fant accepted the Holy See's request to become a permanent observer. With the informal addition, the Holy See could observe, comment, and maintain seats at the UN General Assembly, but it couldn't vote.

15:00For its part, though, the Holy See did not, and maintains it still does not, want a vote. That's on account of the foundational agreement that made a sovereign Vatican possible in the first place, and simultaneously calls into question the extent of its sovereignty. Within the latter in treaty, Article 24 ensured that the Vatican's representative wouldn't take sides in issues between states, nor enter any international congresses unless able to pursue its passive-ismission without bias. Because the morally oriented diplomacy of the Vatican lines up rather cleanly with the four pillars of the UN, the pursuit of peace and security, human rights, the rule of law, and development, the Holy See is comfortable associating with the international organization, but such permanent neutrality would be undercut by a vote to enact sanctions against a nation, for example. Rather than a vote, the Church's influence over UN proceedings is largely through rhetoric, something it doesn't take lightly as four separate popes have taken the time to visit and speak at the UN. And generally it's rare for the Church to take on an issue or stand at this very controversial or counter to the organizations given the similarity in state admissions.

16:02But some issues do require nuance. The ethics of, and UN stands on human cloning, for example, had member states largely stumped in the early 2000s and the wake of scientists' first successful reproductive cloning of an animal. For France and Germany, the breakthrough in cloning dolly this sheet... Star Wars, the Mandalorian and Grogu is now streaming on Disney Plus. What are you waiting for? Hop on! The must-see galactic adventure comes home on Disney Plus. This is the way. Our only chance is to work together. On life this game. And always wear your seatbelt. Star Wars, the Mandalorian and Grogu now streaming on Disney Plus. Waited PG-13. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web. Like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks.

17:04Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up require compatibility and availability varies 18 plus. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use indeed sponsor jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen. And helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsor job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsor jobs. Required an immediate stance on the part of the international community. That reproductive cloning of humans should be immediately banned. This seemed a popular and straightforward stance for the UN to adopt. But then, him the Holy See. Through comments made by Representative Renato Martino in late 2001, who argued that the band didn't go far enough, a simple issue took on a new dimension.

18:05Certainly direct reproductive cloning should be banned. But what about therapeutic cloning and the process of using human stem cells for medical purposes that certain countries had already legalized and lean into? It was undeniably a scientific breakthrough, but one that the Holy See saw as an unethical affront to human dignity as human embryos in the Church's view were nothing less than human beings. And thus, using embryos for medical purposes was destroying one life to help another. Now the issue had become more complicated, and the UN resolved to consider drafts of both types of ban in the following session. What followed was a splintering. The French and German proposal on an immediate ban of strictly reproductive cloning came forward. As did an alternative stricter ban from the US and Costa Rica that largely represented the Holy See stance, while another effort led by Iran and backed by many Muslim members sought to push a moratorium on the vote for two years. By a single vote, the Iranian moratorium passed. But the Holy See was undeterred and continued the moral lobbying on the part of the Church across the following vote freeze.

19:08Such persistence ultimately paid off as the return of the issue in 05 resulted in a ban on human cloning far wider reaching than that initially introduced in 01. While fairly vague in its language, non-binding in its terms and far from unanimous in its outcome, the ban, passed by popular vote, most closely represented the views of a member state that was unable to cast a vote on the matter. Beyond the UN and beyond human cloning, this largely moral, ideological and peace-oriented mission informs Holy See diplomacy across all of its international relations. Syria, as a nation, for example, has a religious composition that's roughly 90% Muslim and less than 10% Christian, only a fraction of which being Catholic. And yet, the Holy See in Syria have maintained diplomatic ties since 1953 with a longstanding non-cio set up in Damascus. Such a presence and relationship has benefited both sides. In 2000, with the death of Hafez Al Assad and subsequent question of who the next Syrian president would be, Syrian officials expressed hope that mediation through Pope John Paul II would be possible.

20:09And a decade later, seen as unbiased and not politically motivated, the Pope and the Holy See, not the UN, were again viewed by Muslim leaders as some of the last viable peace brokers once the Syrian Civil War erupted. Beyond a broad moral obligation to pursue peace, such good moral standing in Middle Eastern, African and Muslim majority countries also allows the Holy See to keep tabs on and advocate for the rights of Christian minority populations within such countries too. In Indonesia, a Muslim majority country with which the Holy See has had good standing with since its early recognition of Indonesian independence, Christians have run into difficulties getting permits to build places of worship. To this religious minority, these obstructions have come to represent a passive sort of religious suppression and a supposedly tolerance nation. Yet, they're hopeful. With a 2024 visit from the Pope, Indonesian Christians are believing again that a reignited respect between the country and the Holy See will serve as a step towards East tensions and fewer restraints on building churches. Of course, in places where Catholicism is the majority, the Vatican maintains a keener interest.

21:11Later on, the Pontri line streets of Havana sits the Apostolic Nuncierter of Cuba. This colonial-style building, just outside of the Old Town, is home to the ecclesiastical office of the Catholic Church. Though the Nuncier here had been established in 1935 and played varying roles over the decades, it was in the 2010s that its prominence in geopolitics and specifically the West made headlines. Shortly after Pope Francis was elected in 2013, the United States President Barack Obama sent an unpublished letter to him. The timing was notable. Obama had just started his second term as President and Pope Francis was beginning tenure as the first Pope from the American. Star Wars, the Mandalorian and Grogu, is now streaming on Disney Plus. What are you waiting for? Hop on. The must-see galactic adventure comes home on Disney Plus. This is the way. Our only chance is to work together. On the life of this game, always wear your seatbelt. Star Wars, the Mandalorian and Grogu, now streaming on Disney Plus.

22:11Break PG 13 This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up require compatibility and availability very 16+. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsor jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen, and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching, and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 Sponsor job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast, terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsor jobs. Our guests.

23:12The Vatican had long been interested in what happened in Cuba from a religious and humanitarian point of view. Documents show visits and correspondence throughout the 2000s citing concerns about Cuban's quality of life. At the beginning of 2014, Secretary of State John Kerry acknowledged the Pope's calls for justice in Cuba and the release of political prisoner Alan Gris. The Holy See embraced a mediator role with the Pope's setting letters to both Obama and Cuban President Raul Castro that summer urging them to compromise, followed by the Vatican actually hosting delegations from both parties to moderate those ongoing discussions. That laid the groundwork for what eventually became known as the Cuban Thaw. The diplomatic softening between the United States and Cuba reflected by loosen travel restrictions, pathways to financial transactions, and a general diplomatic openness seen in the reopening of the Cuban Embassy. On December 17, 2014, President Obama announced this development. In his speech, he paid specific attention to the Holy See. In particular, I want to thank his holiness Pope Francis, whose moral example shows us the importance of pursuing the world as it should be, rather than simply settling for the world as it is.

24:14Later, President Raul Castro expressed similar sentiments while visiting the Vatican, saying, quote, I am very happy. I've come here to thank him for what he has done to begin solving the problems of the United States and Cuba. And though Pope Francis's role was largely symbolic, it was also critical. The Vatican doesn't have exports and it doesn't have financial strings to dangle as incentives for global compromise. But it does have moral authority. The result was nothing short of history making, with Cuba releasing gross and the subsequent period of tenuous diplomacy that Cuba and America shared. And though it didn't last longer to the Trump administration, in early 2025, the Vatican played a pivotal role in the release of 500 Cuban prisoners with American Cardinals Sean O'Malley relaying messages from the Vatican to both Cuban and American officials. Relative to the size of the state, the Vatican holds real power. But that power is vested in the country's conflation with the central authority of one of the world's largest religions, meaning it isn't grounded in the factors typically considered when gauging power. In terms of traditional hard power, the economic levers, the physical imports and exports, the military might, the human resources, the sticks and carrots,

25:20the Holy See's Vatican flatly has none. Singularly the least out of any sovereign state. The Holy See can speak its mind on any and all issues, but if push comes to shove, it really can't do anything about it. So the state deals in soft power, with 117 non-seaters as the physical manifestation of a remarkably capable diplomatic arm that deals in the gentle nudging. Soft power without any hard power to back it is limited too. Beyond public kudos, the Holy See doesn't have anything to offer. Beyond public condemnation, the Holy See doesn't have anything to force one's hand, and it knows as much. Whether cloning at the UN or relations between the US and Cuba, the Holy See has a knack for backing winners, finding broadly reasonable positions with largely appealing moral backing that few will take major issue with. It fosters positive outcomes in diplomacy by backing popular positions. Consider what the Holy See doesn't pursue in international diplomacy, for example. Consider abortion. The same logic that informs the Holy See's stance on stem cells and therapeutic cloning doesn't differ from that which informs its stance on abortion.

26:26Life begins at conception in the Church's view, so abortion essentially represents that same evil of harvesting embryonic stem cells. But rather than boisterously and defiantly pursuing anti-abortion legislation on the international level, the Holy See lets it lie. Rather than a little dog with a big bark, the Holy See is the very smallest dog that has a bark at all. Perhaps then, the Holy See's greatest strength of all as a sovereign state is its recognition of the limitations of its own sovereignty. You are probably busy. You probably also enjoy self-improvement. And therefore, you're probably often frustrated that how busy you are gets in the way of your self-improvement goals. Well, that's the problem our sponsor, Brilliant, tries to help solve. As a Wendover viewer, I'd also guess that one way you'd like to improve is by learning hard stem skills like data science, programming, math, and more, but those are quite tricky to learn on your own. Brilliant breaks these subjects down into super well designed online courses that you can do on your phone, tablet or computer in small chunks that are easy to fit into a busy day.

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