How TikTok is helping sports and broadcasters reach the fans that TV can't touch

Hello everyone, welcome back to the next episode of Streamtime Sports.

My name is Chris Stone.

The community lead joined as always by my CEO, Nick Meacham.

And if you're watching the video, you can also see that we are joined by TikTok's

Global Head of Sports, Rolo Golsev.

Rolo, thank you for having us, because what I can say is this will be the highest altitude

in which we have ever recorded a podcast.

Definitely.

We're on the 57th floor.

The TikTok of us in New York is insane.

You can walk all the way around and see an amazing view.

But thank you for coming along and a busy week for you guys with your events, a really

great shot.

Sure is, but also this is part of the nicest backdrop we've had, I think as well.

So that's a couple of boxes ticked.

I don't know if we'll be able to beat 57 floors up.

Have you drawn an amount on at some stage?

Yeah, no.

I think we might have to just make this a bit of an annual thing.

Yep, I'm sure.

I'm happy with that.

Yeah, well, Rolo, I appreciate you joining us today.

We're going to talk all kinds of things around sports media, things that TikTok are

specifically doing.

So we want to keep this a bit conversational, but I think maybe the kind of place to start

this off is just to kind of set the scene a little bit, and think a little bit beyond

TikTok, and just you've obviously been in sports media for a long time, multiple

different organizations, not just strictly with TikTok, but perhaps just on the way you

see sports consumption, particularly over the last five years across digital platforms.

What are some of the biggest changes you're seeing in terms of consumer behavior?

Yeah, of course.

I'll be cheeky and extend the five years to maybe seven to when TikTok kind of started

right out.

Yeah.

And I feel the massive change was before TikTok, everything was landscape, everything

was like click to view in some way.

You might have a homepage which was suggested to you, you might search for something, you

would click and choose, and then the biggest way you'd ever engage was that something

would be to comment or to reply to a comment and like, and that was about it, and then

TikTok comes along, and now everything's vertical.

The feed is completely sub to you based on your interest and what you're watching, and

the majority of all of our traffic is in the few page.

And then the level of engagement, of course, you can comment, you have a great discussion,

but really true engagement is co-creation, where fans are getting an original piece of

IP from a publisher and creating content relating to it.

And so that's where like trends and cultural movements start on TikTok.

And so we've just gone from this to this, and a completely different way of engaging.

It's interesting, you frame it that way.

I do some of the onboarding at Sports Pro for some of our new employees, and I talk about

some of the changing trends.

And one of the things I talk about is exactly what you mentioned, which is, you know, I

ask them, I was like, hey, where did you consume most of your content five, 10 years ago,

and the answer is on my TV or on an iPad in a horizontal format, whereas like one of those

changing habits is vertical, which has a larger impact than I think people think of,

like we talk about sometimes, like, Bundesliga is now, you know, filming things vertically.

We talk about cricket, it's been really successful because of the way Nick, you're going to have

to help me with the cricket terminology where they do the whole bowling, you know, works

itself out really well for a vertical space.

Don't do that again, don't do the bowling, but yeah, I got the point.

I think, yeah, the bowling thing works quite well, but they've done really well, there's,

I think I sport like cricket works incredibly well, but not only at cutting down the horizontal

and just going there on the vertical, but they've also done a really good job, and you

see more of this, that the two shot view, so the two horizontals on top of each other,

one might be the wider, the wider shot of the whole field, and one will close up all

the stats and data on the bottom screen, and that I think's been a really good evolution

of how people haven't been forcing stuff, they're making something a bit more purpose-built

and it really, really works on the platform.

Completely.

Yeah, the split screen, two element, it makes so much sense, tennis is like cricket really

lends itself well to vertical without minimal editing from the original broadcast.

We can see it in a future world where you have the vertical live rights and the horizontal

live rights.

It's not happening yet, but it's definitely, I think, on the way.

Do you see those sports that sit as a more vertically friendly style sport?

Are they also performing better, not just aesthetically, but they actually get the numbers

as well?

The tennis is having a real boom on TikTok, but I don't think it's just because the court

is the right shape.

It's really the athletes, Sabelanka, Alkaraz making amazing content after when in the

US Open, the athletes are probably the most special element of tennis, and they are embracing

TikTok in a really big way.

We've had some great efforts to onboard as many new tennis players as possible, and we're

just continually seeing whether it's ATP, WTA, or US Open, the growth of their accounts coincide

with more athletes coming onto TikTok.

It seems to be all about athlete content.

I'm just going to talk about onboarding.

What typically goes into onboarding an athlete?

You give them the brilliant basics of how to use the platform, what goes into that?

At the very basic level, there's the making sure they're verified, so they are the official

version of themselves, and making sure we also remove any other accounts which are in

personation of any kind, giving them the best practices of exactly what to create, supporting

them in any production tips, guidance on trends, and information on how best to use TikTok.

And setting them up with other companies that you could help as well, potential agencies

around production, and really then the ongoing account management from members of my team,

who will work with a large portfolio of athletes as well, so they're regularly checking

in, regularly continuing to give them advice throughout that time.

So it's a process of getting people comfortable with TikTok as well.

Sometimes people feel like you have to be really creative, and that is true in some ways,

and you can find your way of expressing yourself on TikTok.

It feels like you don't need to necessarily have a huge production behind things, although

I say that with the biggest production set we would have behind us, but you don't need

that big production behind you.

Just to curious, what do you guys see where it comes to?

I don't want to jump too far ahead in our conversation, but that dynamic between athletes

and the personality side that seems to be every type of media is looking for more of that,

to what teams and leagues are doing.

The teams and leagues, I wouldn't say struggling, but they are finding it difficult to get the

cut through in the same way, and the athlete publishing something similarly might.

Is that somewhat accurate, and they're actually really trying to get the athletes to come

to them and to do stuff on their own channels, or how do you just see that dynamic?

I think there's just this element of what access they have.

So the league may have retained rights of the action.

The broadcaster might have the majority of the match rights, and then the teams will

get that closer access at the training ground, where there are so many great examples, especially

in American sports, where the football or the basketball team are coming out to training,

and they ask them a really simple question, and it's a really great way of getting behind

the scenes of the chiefs or the laykits or whatever it might be.

And then what the best way to marry up, the England goalkeeper described to me was,

they then get the access in the hotel, where they can film with their other player at

the tournament and do some really fun, interesting stuff, and so it's just different levels,

and you wouldn't expect UEFA to then want to try and do the bet which marry ups is doing

with her teammates.

So there's such a range of what they can and can't do, where we do see great successes

is where the leagues are embracing the teams in a more meaningful way, and that's what

we've seen with WTA and ATP, where they've lent in with us to work with the athletes,

and then broadcast as well, where they include the athletes in the post-match and do more

interesting things with them, and of course things like CBS, Galatso are incredibly successful

on really Caragher and that kind of thing as well.

That's a show that just seems to be bigger than all the parts combined, beneath it, even

the sport almost.

But I just find interesting about that is that's the same crew that does, or largely the

same crew that does Champions League coverage in the UK, and it's just to me interesting

how you have the same set of top talent, but to paint on who the broadcaster is, it's

seemingly the American side allows them to be a little bit more funny, how you can have

two completely different end products just by having the same talent.

So I find that really interesting just in terms of seeing some of their stuff, because

like I have friends sharing me all of their stuff, but you don't get that same coverage,

I don't think we need to go down the route of how football commentators work in the

British scene, because that's a whole other thing we start thinking about, or the Gary

Neville's and all that, but we won't get into that conversation here, I don't think.

So Roller, off the back of what Nick said there, and you sort of touched on a little bit,

one of the things we've spoken about is rights holders, their IP is quite valuable to them,

and sometimes it's difficult to maybe relinquish some of that control, but ultimately we know

the fan ecosystems, they thrive on authenticity and having genuine voices.

So kind of along with you, the lines you're talking about there, opening that up for athletes,

what's maybe some of maybe a misunderstanding by sports organizations, or something they're

not taking enough advantage of in terms of understanding the power of, you know, maybe

you can relinquish a little bit of control over your IP, because I kind of understand

that balance of, you've invested a lot to build up that value you have, but also there

is something about you need to let people be themselves.

Yeah, of course.

I think this is the biggest question for social platforms and rights holders, what fan

creation rights look like in the future, and probably more in the short term, what

athlete IP rights could look like, because it's obviously a much smaller trusted cohort,

your own athletes of your sport, and allowing them to post their goal clip.

The NBA allows any of the players to post their highlights, right?

So that's a more forward leaning organization who's a bit more flexible towards IP being

spread out and recognising it as a massive marketing benefit if Steph Curry's posting

his highlights from the night before on TikTok, that is huge, and they see it real benefit.

And you know, the IFC, a very traditional organization this time around for the Winter Olympics

gave more rights to the athletes to post on various parts as well.

So we're going in this direction, and it's where some rights holders want to lean into

it more, and then where others, and rightly so may feel, and you know what, this is just

infringement, and we're going to be more cautious.

And so from our perspective, it's about helping different rights holders with what they're

comfortable with.

Our game plan products, one of them is just linking across any content which has a hashtag

of that sport.

So LeLiga, any content where someone's used hashtag LeLiga, so regardless of what the

actual video is, they've used the hashtag.

The link can then go through to a LeLiga destination within TikTok, which also has the ability

to link out to the broadcaster as well.

Interesting.

It's fine that dynamic so perplexing that we're still taking so long to inch forward, but

obviously the dynamic between the rights infringement issues, and no surprise at the ISEs a little

bit slower these things, but they also have a lot of long-standing rights deals.

I remember one Olympics where athletes were sharing clips that were being shared by

other broadcasters from other markets that had the rights to show, this was not on TikTok,

this is on other platforms, but the right to be seen, so that the post was being shared,

but it was that not available to watch in your country, and everyone was just getting

like, these athletes are sharing this stuff, it is available somewhere, we're just not

for us, and that creates a really predicate sort of a messy environment to navigate, but

I think inevitably you're going to see way more relaxation over that over time.

Hopefully so, I mean, that's the kind of content I think builds it out, because one of the

questions we had off the back of the event that we hosted at your offices in London was

the social media need sports, or sports need social media, and I think all the time

where Nick and I landed was they both mutually need each other just as much as the other

does.

We always kind of talk about live sports rights, where the amount of money is invested,

because that's where the eyeballs are, but ultimately, if I'm a bangles fan, I'm only

watching the bangles for three hours for live content, I've got to fill in the rest of

my week with other content, so whether that's the build up in the anticipation to the game,

where there's a whole conversation taking place there, followed by the analysis that happens

after the game, the two sides, it is interesting where the money goes in terms of the rights

deals, but actually sort of which side needs to more, and I think we'd argue it's probably

50-50 pounds in terms of like, well, I'll say, I don't know, you might have said it.

I think sports needs social, or the social needs sports, I think social has enough impact

in like, through culture, to do okay, but I have also seen that most of the major platforms

are really investing a lot of time to educate nubskill sports, because there is such a strong

resonance with audiences when they do have sports rights on the platform, so there is

a value there, I don't know if it's 50-50 though, maybe it's off.

But someone working at a social platform only focused on sports, I think we need sports

100%, so we definitely need all those partners in that content, it's critical for us.

That dynamic between, because we talked about sports content, actually before we go into

that, I was going to say, come back to the point I was suggesting about the infringement

issues, and you were saying, or more, which platforms are publishing what, and the example

that I come to is the DeZone Club World Cup example, which you shared, some study, some

insights around, can you just talk us through what were some of the stats that you did

through that project, with the Club World Cup that was hosted in the US last summer,

and that notion of, I guess, being measuring more closely the impact you're having on the

audience funnel.

Yeah, we've had an interesting product during our last year or two, to really hone in

on what TikTok's value proposition is to the sports industry, and the case study we

now have with DeZone is a really great way of reflecting that.

One of the products we have is an anchor link, and DeZone posted, I think it was about

4,000 posts, and they had around 5 billion views, and on all that content, we had a link

which could go through to a Club World Cup page, and on that page, you could click once

more to watch life, and so our argument or our proposition is, we can take you from

the few page to watching live on a partner's app or website within two clicks.

And we're okay, and really, like, that's part of our strategic direction.

One because we know how important that is to sports organizations, to own customer, understand

their information, but also make sure people are still watching live sports, especially

younger or female demographics who aren't.

And then for us, we know that TikTok's this kind of cultural trend-based app that people

keep going back to each day anyway.

So we're all right to, like, that balance and trade-off, with that, over half million

users went out to DeZone's app.

And so, from a customer acquisition standpoint, that's massive, and becomes a really, really

critical part of what we're trying to achieve.

Well, it definitely just completes the, or removes the challenge or question mark about

what role is social having, if it's for a broadcasters perspective, if it is being

measured, and they're able to see those numbers play out that way, have DeZone share

anything in terms of how, of those half a million, how many they're actually able to turn

into actual subscribers, users, actually watching a live experience, because it's one thing

to get them there, and it's another thing to get them to commit to it.

So when some of these do, the key thing now is to make it like a deep language, go straight

into the live.

So if they've clicked that, they should be watching live.

And the club or couple, I think, was free to air on DeZone.

And so obviously, then, that experience, we don't know how many later became paying

subscribers, but we know that DeZone definitely want to work with us in the future.

So we're hoping that there's a positive outcome from a case study we're both proud of as

well.

That's the importance of reducing all that friction in the experience, because just a couple

of more little barriers to entry, even not just the paying part, but, you know, user name,

user email addresses popping up and so forth, we'll add extra friction to that experience

and you're going to lose people all on the way.

Absolutely.

And in terms of the live sports, one of the things we talked about again, the then was

whether or not social media was about you add a distraction to live sports, because

you talk about second screen applications or do you want people tuned in all the way?

But with TikTok, in terms of, are there any data or any insights you have in terms

of how people use the app while live sports is taking place, you know, are there, is

there a change in consumption habits when live sporting events are taking place that

are not noticeable for you?

From our sense to confirm the first part of the question, we know that 85% of the users

we serve a used TikTok as a second screen during live sports.

So we know that that is a pattern which is happening.

The part we're very sure about is the products we built are now designed to have a sports

information element to them as well.

So a year ago, you'd come to TikTok and you watch any content and that'll be great.

You can see in parts of sports, but now when you go to these match hubs, these pages

they'll have live scores, they'll have stats around the players.

So we're transitioning from a point of general sports entertainment to a place people come

regularly to check their sports content.

But it's also, I think it's about the creative moments.

We have some broadcasters posting near live highlights.

So as soon as it's happening, so you might use TikTok as a way of seeing a more creative

edit of the same thing you're watching.

So there's definitely a clear length in element and the other part I would mention is what

I'm noting and maybe realizing in the last few years is that from a sports perspective,

we are a very like temple event based app.

When there's loads momentum around a world series, a finals, the Olympics, it's like all

the different users posting about it, all the creators, the athletes, it creates this

massive wave of momentum.

And so for us, we're encouraging rights holders when their live moment is on, that's when

it's really important to post, relating to your marriage as well.

I'm going to keep going in sort of the data and trend side of things that you see.

We've talked about how you can drive people to a design platform, but then terms of TikTok

being a source of discovery for people, what do you see in terms of data trends of how

do you go from someone that's just naturally just kind of scrolling to a more deeper set

of fandom?

Are there particular characteristics that you can identify to say that you're helping

me?

I hate to use the funnel analogy, but you know, sort of, yeah, the stickiness, you know,

because you know, for example, for me, I started golf.

I found a Bryson Nation bo video and then I went and bought a set of golf clubs and then

I went to get lessons and now I'm golfing like that sort of, I think, you know, for the

PGA tour or someone like that, like the dream scenario or the prototype.

Yeah, exactly.

Someone catches the peach's content and then now all of a sudden they're a golf player

and for the first time ever, I've watched a Ryder Cup and stuff like that for you guys

like on TikTok.

There are things that you guys see in terms of how you can, like I said, from just someone

who's just accidentally scrolling to, they're now really into this.

I think we see this at like the entire time and the way TikTok's discovery mechanisms occur

is you can have a friend who's interested in something else or you watch something and

then you are served a video based on what other people might be interested in and if it's

the same kind of content you're watching.

And so from that, you can be, I have no interest in sport whatsoever, but you could be watching

a certain show.

We saw this with Summary Time Pretty, I don't know if you guys watched this, isn't it?

Not on my out watching.

No, no.

It's an Amazon Prime show and it was a like teen dramas and maybe that's why you guys

were watching.

Where there was like a romance element between Team Conrad and Team Ajay, no, I'm going

to budget.

I don't remember the second one, there's definitely two romantic interests and all of the sports

teams in the US especially started jumping on this trend of asking every player when they

came out, are you Team Conrad, are you this kind of thing?

And so what then ends up happening is people who are watching a teen drama or an Amazon Prime

and coming to TikTok who are then consuming content around that show suddenly start learning

about the Jacksonville Jaguars and like suddenly might then watch a bit more.

So for us, a lot of this pattern is how any entry point can become fandom, but it's also

all about then content which will keep people watching.

So when we work with publishers MLB at the moment during spring training, they had a crata

who was really explaining the fundamentals of baseball.

And that then appeals to other female audiences of that female crater, but it meant that if

you were just getting into baseball, you were learning about the sport instead of trying

to come in at this final point where, you know, I think at elsewhere, sports can be

quite intimidating.

It can be like, okay, you either know the offside rule or you don't, like you can't break

into football easily.

TikTok's this very friendly, happy, interesting place where you can get into any sport.

And you can be interested in Charlotte Clerk based on this personality.

You don't have to yet know about downforce and tire degradation, but that's kind of

probably one of our bigger USPs as well.

And I think it's kind of the dynamic between learning about someone's personality, the

culture side, the non-sporting part.

It sounds like it plays a massive role in building that fandom for you.

You're watching content, but wasn't anything to do with the official tournament, right?

No, it was just him.

He set himself as challengers where he's like, I'm going to break the course record or

can I do this with a set of golf clubs that I bought from Walmart?

They're usually, it's not him taking you through like, hey, these are my, you know, top tips

for how to become a really good golfer.

Like, they're usually just him like, I'm going to set myself out and try to do something

fun and interesting.

And the difference there is he's had a lot of flexibility given to him by Liv Goff, which

was his partner, which is the PGH was much more restrictive.

And he wouldn't have been able to do some of the things that he has been able to do.

And it comes back to your point about enablement, right?

No, you guys are trying to enable the sports properties, but in turn, the sports properties

then have to chill out a little bit and relax so that it can open the fun gates for basically

more audiences and more awareness of the sport.

That'd be the summary?

Yeah, pretty much.

I don't, we don't tend to walk in and say, tell them to chill out, but I can do that.

We try to like, what we do best is we show them the data of their own league and explain

to them how much fan creation is out there or how much, you know, athletes, we tend to find

that the athlete accounts have the highest female viewership of any type of sports uploader.

And so it's like with tennis, but also whichever sport, if you're trying to grow a bigger

female fan base, working with athletes, your sports is a great way to do it.

And so let's talk a bit more about, obviously, one of the major partnerships you guys announced

was the FIFA partnership.

You also mentioned game plan earlier.

I believe those, those, those launches were kind of linked together, maybe just talk

us through all of that.

Yeah.

I'll wait, maybe I'll explain the game plan a bit a little on the FIFA as well, the chicken

and egg there.

Yeah.

Which one first?

So yeah, game plan stems back to Paris 2024 Summer Olympics, where we had a gamified

page that had, and this is a big, on major, major events, we try and work out really

in compelling gamification mechanisms.

And so during that Summer Olympics, you could do some tasks, earn some own amount of points

and win prizes.

And that was our first foray into building really custom in app elements for the sports

vertical.

We fast forward a little bit to Super last February.

And that's when we started doing it with league content, where we had this link which went

through to a page, which went through to live broadcast.

And that was the first time.

What we noticed then was really surprising was the percentage, the click for rates, once

people went to that, like, in-app destination was actually particularly high.

So people were interested in going to watch more.

And so we, that's when we kind of on to an idea.

So the rest of game plan is a collection of different tools.

And one of the key ones is a search up.

And when you, essentially when you search on TikTok, if we've worked with a league to

have an official search destination, the

results are all related to official accounts first.

So you'll have, what have we got on right now?

Recently we had, so for the Super most recently, it would be NFL content, the teams in both

contents and athletes.

But it's essentially diverting away from the organic results to make sure that users

are seeing the most official relevant content.

And there was a click out element there which was used 3.7 million times.

People went out to an NFL page where they could find out where to watch and how to engage.

So these are all together, the kind of game plan part.

And where we've now led to is to work with FIFA around the 2026 World Cup.

As their first ever preferred platform, there will be the search other element,

the matchup we were describing, and also some really interesting gamification layers.

And elements that will, more of it will be announced soon.

The exciting bit that we haven't spoken about yet, FIFA-wise is the creator part for

us.

So there are going to be 30 creators on the ground across US, Mexico and Canada going to

all the different games.

There are official FIFA creators, TikTok creators.

And they'll have access to things which no one else has access to all in combination.

So the bus arrival, press conferences, pitch side.

And so they are getting that kind of accreditation as creators that we've never seen before.

So that's going to be really, really cool and fun.

And for us, it means globally we can connect creators from Japan,

Brazil, around the world, or coming in.

And then the one which we'll tie in into exactly what we've been talking about is we also have

this kind of 500, the FIFA 500, these creators online, who will have access to a large portion

of the FIFA's archive.

So they'll be able to create content using FIFA's archive, the best Ronaldo Nazario goals,

or the top 10 overhead bicycle kicks at all the World Cups.

And so they have full rights to use that IP leading up to the tournament.

And that's a great test for us to see how, you know, really unleashing fan creation

to 500 really well-produced trusted creators.

And it's all about that kind of cool walk run base.

And so I think we're hopefully getting towards the walking part.

And that's exciting for the World Cup.

That is really cool.

On the game plan concept, and basically creating a destination within the TikTok environment,

most people associate TikTok with consumption of the video content and swiping through videos

that you want to see next, so forth.

But that notion of creating a platform within the destination, just how is that as big as it sounds

for you guys to try and creating more of a complete experience?

Or you already have been doing a lot of that already, and it's just kind of the next step

and subtle evolution.

So we had, I think it's something like 62 different game plan campaigns last year,

starting with Super Balls, the first one.

So we've been doing it across pretty much all major sports.

The very few, if we missed out on the really top-top IP, which has relevance across two or more

continents, let's say.

So we're getting there.

What's hard is we now are changing user behavior and pattern, right?

So it's, people predominantly are coming to TikTok just to consume content.

They may not expect to go look at the live schools or check the standings.

One of my favorite things about game plan as a user is I can go to the Premier League's page,

and I can see the table, which is great.

I feel like I never remember who's worse.

It's always fun to check back.

I can look at the fixtures and various things.

But the content now on that page is basically any official account,

any account which has come through with the right hashtag in time-based order.

So I can click into that destination,

and I can swipe through that weekend's Premier League action

from like a real different diverse range of uploaders.

And so it's kind of like TikTok's version and match it today.

So you'll have the TNT content, the Sky content, Premier League,

your NBC and the US, wherever you are, right?

And that is a really fun experience.

But maybe most people don't know that quite yet.

And I'm obviously probably a heavy user in the most.

I was working here.

But what we're trying to do is over time change that behavior

so where I, a destination, not only sports video content,

but just sports as a whole to consume.

Do you use that notion of like creating this experience

and destination to point people to?

Are you doing that in any other sectors?

Or is it really sports kind of the litmus test for TikTok to do that?

We've got an amazing proposition in entertainment around movies.

And so that's where there'll be IP relating to movies.

And it drives through to these ones and you can buy tickets

to go see in the cinema.

And so it's a similar concept

and definitely in the entertainment world, really successful for TikTok.

Do you think that at some stage, maybe this is a bit further down the line,

but you would have a notion of, let's say,

a major of sports property leading into gameplay and heavily enough

that they wouldn't even need their own app and destination

that could just be pointing to their TikTok platform or product.

Because it seems like the platforms that I look at and use,

major events ones, the main reason I go to them

is looking at some of the stuff that you guys are having.

And why not have it in just one destination rather than

fragmenting that experience and having separate Apple together?

Maybe, honestly, I haven't thought of it that way.

So maybe after this, think about it that way.

Right now, for sure, it's about complementing

both the leading broadcasts of the official offering.

Because we are very aware that by doing that,

we are making sure that we're building their critical business.

And broadcasts are the users best on their broadcasts.

So that's how we see ourselves as a really, really driving value.

But from a live perspective, that's probably something

which has surprised me just at the beginning of this year,

is how successful rights holders and broadcasts

are using TikTok live.

So all last year, we had like kind of tests

to try and prove out some live concepts.

So we had an IsoCam stream of Just Messy with Apple.

We then developed that further of Apple

where it would follow, you know, five different players.

The MessyCam was viewed 6.4 million times live.

So that was, we knew that there was definitely an appetite.

But a really great example is Fox Sports.

They are almost going towards a point

where they could be live 24-7 on TikTok with something,

where, so just straight after a live golf tournament,

they live stream the exact same tournament

straight away the whole thing, after we finish.

And so it still didn't cannibalize their broadcast audience

at all from the live perspective

and had like a secondary replay factor.

Or they started a lot for the euros

in Copamerican 2024, where they would live stream

all of their pre-match content.

And then they would leave like a live look

in for the first 10 minutes.

And that's a critical part of our FIFA

platform agreement is where broadcasts globally

can live stream the first 10 minutes of every game.

And that's to be fair, come from like the genius

of the team working at Fox Sports.

So they're consistently seeing it as either a great way

to build an audience on TikTok

or be they're very aware that it can drive through

to their own and operate it as well.

The example that you gave with Messi and Apple,

we've seen a few examples of particularly soccer

and football trying that initiative

of having either a single player came

or the vertical broadcast live.

We haven't seen that, it seems to be

that we have not seen that pick up

as a consistent ongoing action

like the Fox Sports example you gave.

Why is that?

Is there been more just trial and error

or trial and testing at the moment only?

I think it's one finding the partners

who want to lean in as well.

Like it's not the most immediate thing

that everyone's thinking to do.

So it's finding really adventurous

and fantastic partners to collaborate with.

And it's also, if you boil it down

into marketing mechanism,

you are someone comes to TikTok,

they see a bit of Messi

and if they want to watch the whole game,

they know then that they can go to Apple

to watch the full game in that experience.

And we're very happy for that to be

a key part of our value proposition.

And so I think that's quite unique

to TikTok as part of what we want to do.

And then it's hopefully actually

something where we do start to broaden the sound more.

And I think the World Cup

would be the perfect environment

to see how successful that first 10-minute live

has worked for such a critical tournament around the world.

One of the things you talked about was highlights.

Certainly something we've talked about.

One of the things that came up was

the event that we had with you guys

was around the importance of getting highlights out

as soon as possible.

And you know, there were clear success markers

for how soon you get a highlight out.

But I think one of the other things as well

about highlights and interesting

of your commentary on this is TikTok

being around the community,

the content creator side of things.

Obviously one of the key features,

you could stitch a video,

something like that where there's the original highlight

that's gone out from the rights holder,

but then someone has stitched something

additionally to that.

So I guess how do you see the performance

of when something goes from beyond

just the own channel to

a separate creator's gone on and stitched something?

You know, are there examples

where the actual, the conversation that was led

through using those other features

on the platform have actually outperformed

the original highlight or sort of what you see

in terms of that having the ability

on the platform for the community

to engage with content that's already

been put out on official channels?

Yeah, I don't know if I have the exact example

of the stitch one being more than the original,

but I'm sure it has happened.

What I could do the other way around

is take when a user has done something

really interesting with the original sound

and then the rights holder has taken

that original sound and put it into their content.

So there you've got like the user

creating the IP technically

and the rights holder is using it

to make that video more interesting.

There was this amazing one where

just a creator like hit that hit bone

against the banister and the stairs

and made like a yelp sound

and then people have like edited that

into like so many different songs

mashed it together

and then I've seen lots of

Premier League football clubs use

the mash up of that song

and this is the weird and wonderful

cuffuffle mix of TikTok

where like things kind of merge together

to create something beautifully creative and fun.

So I would say the original sound side

definitely bleeds in really well to the rights holder

and then from a stitch and duet point of view

it's all about when you encourage users

to have that enabled as well.

The rights holder to keep that on as well.

And I guess adding to that

we were talking about discoverability

and I'm going to loop this back in.

There's intentionally going out in searching

for something, you know, for example

we were just talking before this

like I used TikTok to find recipe.

So there's sometimes like I'm very

specifically putting in biriyataka recipe.

But then also I can also find things

just organically they come up through my feed.

So there's sort of that difference

between like being served content

because you have organically gone

out of your way to find it

versus the algorithm has found

what you want based on that.

Just like you're actually for TikTok in terms of

because some fans might go looking for sports content

versus some fans just might be served it

because of what's gone on there.

Is there any sort of strategy you give

to them thinking about how they

think about their content?

They're not all their content

is necessarily going to be something

that people are directly searching.

It may just be something

I think Nick and I have called it

stumbleability

which I don't think is a real word.

But like is there any sort of thought for

those rights holders or sports broadcasters

that not every piece of content

they make is something that someone's

explicitly searching for?

It might just be something they stumble across.

I think most of TikTok is stumbled across.

Also one of the

I think mobile

the amount of searches TikTok is now number one.

So there's a huge amount of

people searching for content

that's definitely there.

Especially recommend like an educational content.

So people learning about a sport

and that's why when you have those

creators out there explaining

how the MLB rules work

so valuable for the sport

and I think it's so underestimated

by everyone really,

how much that gets people through the door.

So a lot of

the stumble upon element is there

but the search aspect of TikTok

is really powerful as well.

I was going to say it's probably the other way around.

The stumbling part is

is TikTok almost in that sense

but it's the how do you get people

to take their journey of

intentionally finding things

and finding the right things.

It's probably more

the question mark I think I would have

there on how you'd navigate that journey

which game plan and stuff

is probably what you're part of that.

That's a critical part.

So that's taking

TikTok is an absolute reach machine

of finding audiences.

That's really like a major part of the USP

and then the game plan products are there

to amplify but also

divert. So like divert search users

to an official destination.

Divert people from the few page

to their match destination.

This is all part of that plan

and then when we advise rights holders

there's for example

creating content around trends.

So there's a really wonderful trend

which is unexpected edits.

I don't know if you've seen this

but it's where

it'll be like a viral clip

of something which has happened before

and there's one with someone falling

down the stairs and they're falling

along their knees

and it immediately cuts

and you don't realize

to Didier Drogba

celebration where he slides on his

list of things.

And so that's an amazing trend

where the video I just described

the secondary element was

the FA Cup account

taking the Drogba that element.

So if one of the ways

you can try and capitalise

the stumble upon us

is definitely not an official word.

If you want to capitalise

on that few page

TikTok side

working across trends

is definitely effective as well.

I was just going to say that

unexpected edit one

one this podcast was over

because I can't

describe it on this show.

There's a great one with Harry McGuire

that's exactly like that.

We're like it's a curveball.

It's not what you're expecting

and then Harry McGuire comes in.

I have shared it with a few friends.

I don't think I can share it on this podcast

very funny like form of content 100%.

So you're working with a lot of sports,

broadcasters and sports properties

themselves.

Naturally, there's ways I always hear

this is like how much is enough?

How much resources is enough to put

and commit to content?

And I'm sure you're having

lots of conversations about

how to approach using the platform

but also there must be looking for

signals on how to make the

most bang for their buck in terms of

resource and time, particularly

in this world.

What are some of the tips perhaps

that you're giving them around that?

Is it basically just some of the stuff

we're being talking about in terms of

letting your fans do the work for you

in a sense and doing those things

or as other things that you give advice

and tips to those broadcasters and platforms?

Yeah, I have a world-class team here

who are fantastic at working

with each of those types of organizations.

We work on some business review process

where we will do an amazing analysis

of past performance.

And so one of the best ways

to encourage what should they do more

is not on a whim, not unlike our opinions.

It's just to look at the data of what's

worked and encourage those partners

to do the same thing again.

We've done that before with a partner

who's was posting their highlights

but way later than others

or that on the same topic.

And we showed them if they posted earlier

how much more effective that would be.

We showed them their own data

of when they did,

but also the fact that after 30 minutes

a large amount of the interest

in a specific match has already declined.

So a lot of what we do is

trying to only base it on empirical facts

versus just encouraging people

to do more for the sake of doing more.

It's very much more scientific

to say, we think if you do this,

this will succeed.

And that kind of side.

But what is so well, that makes loads of sense.

And using data always definitely helps to help the story.

So why is your mission

to therefore help them get more out of the platform

is the end result

that you're measuring

the TikTok is just trying to drive

up engagement on the platform

and more time spent on platform

or more users

or is it all of the above

or is there a specific mandate

or what's the greater goal

with all this work that you guys are putting into?

So overall is to be

a really primary destination for sports content.

So if you're coming to the app for

to be entertained with sports

but also to catch up

on the action or to see the later scores

that kind of side overall

with that, you know,

how long people are watching sports content will matter.

And that can be one of the ways we just

checking in to see how successful we are

and achieving that longer-term goal.

I think for me, one of the things is around

trying to connect all the different TikTok revenue streams

towards the rights holders.

So we have TikTok shop

which could be really effective for teams

in selling their shirts.

There's a large live revenue gifting side of TikTok

where that could be quite effective for broadcasters.

We have some ad monetization solutions as well.

So for me,

goal wise, this is less TikTok's goal

but more my goal towards partners

and any entity we work with

is seeing how we can drive greater revenues as well.

That's always the big question I have

with any social platform, TikTok especially,

is that monetization piece.

You mentioned a bunch of them there.

How far along are they to be able

to really provide meaningful direct ROI

and return on the investment of resource

or some of the platform versus

inching up its impact?

I think it's a balance tune for some sectors,

some partners really meaningful.

Some areas still growing

and then the combination of the four I mentioned,

that's we haven't cracked that yet,

of really combining it.

So there's a unique

value proposition of different sources

that partners couldn't get anywhere else.

And that's something where if that's the right elements,

we know we would be valuable in that sense.

I also think all of what we discussed around

half a million users for DeZone going to their website and app.

That is in itself,

in many ways, much more important than any revenue

platform can drive.

So if we can do it all, that's amazing.

And we're trying to grow all of the different

pies at the same time.

Well, innately if they're driving

audiences from the platform of choice

in TikTok directly to their platform,

the cost of that acquisition

of a potential subscriber is going to be frictional

to the amount they're spending on potentially acquiring.

Audiences, if you look at some of the numbers you see

from some of the major streaming players,

so that is obviously going to be innately

much more valuable than making a bit of money out of the

e-commerce platform that's marginal on the panel.

Yeah, well, I think that's one of the

challenges sports has at the moment is

you often hear the younger generations

aren't necessarily as interested in sports,

which I don't know how true that is or isn't.

But there's the balance between monetizing

today versus growing fandom for the long term

and just what that appropriate balance is.

And I don't know for you at TikTok,

if there's a view on that in terms of balancing that out,

because obviously I don't think you want to,

I don't think fans want to be felt like they're just,

you know, an empty wallet for organizations

to be turning money over,

but you're also trying to find that right balance

between the two.

And I think to the next point,

like there are the features that you could turn

on the monetization tabs,

but also how you balance that out,

which is growing fandom because you need

that base, particularly with younger generations coming through.

Yeah, like TikTok has over a billion users.

So as you can imagine, there's going to be lots of young people

that's going to be middle age people,

older people all using the app,

there's going to be a real diverse spread.

But the rights holders are aware that like there are,

there's a great cross-section of Gen Z and millennials

using TikTok that they can access.

But more interestingly,

around more female demographic sports,

we had a research of the app source,

which shows 62% of women chose TikTok

as their primary destination to go to for sports content.

We also know from our own data

that almost half of all US viewers

on sports-specific videos are women.

And so if you looked at any stadium in New York,

any stadium around the world,

and you had all the seats and you coloured half one

and half the other,

you would not get 50-50 of male and female viewers

of a given sport.

So we have a unique point of view

on both the youth audiences, but also female,

that all of the revenue-generating side,

but also that fan base,

that fan base you haven't tapped into yet,

all the fan base you may be at risk of losing

or not acquiring at all.

So that's where I think we can really have

a meaningful value exchange,

which is recognised and understood by the partners as well.

You're really good at this,

because I was the next question I was going to bring up

was talking about that female audience,

specifically, they came up in that presentation

from the data from 2025.

What do you think you can attribute that to,

because as you say, there's multiple platforms out there,

what specifically about TikTok is driving that usage

from female sports fans?

Yeah, it's the content.

Like, there's a lot of different things,

but we were talking on it like the...

It's an acceptable place to learn about a sport,

and you don't feel like excluded

because you don't know about the tire

degradation I was mentioning of F1.

There's a great example of an NBA-related video,

which is like the baddie index made,

where it's like, if you go see this,

where it's like a really great statistical analysis

of how well a basketball player plays

when a famous celebrity is on the bench.

So it's like, Rihanna's there,

and X-Player scored 10 more points for whatever it is.

And that was just a really great,

funny, interesting, well-made piece of content

that could be enjoyed by anyone,

even just completely non-sports fans.

And that sums up TikTok.

It's an easy but fun and accepting way

to get into a sport.

And that's why I think those stats

around female viewership, audience,

and coming to TikTok for their sports content

is maybe also because the sports content on TikTok

isn't anywhere else.

Trends start on TikTok.

You know, the Jet 2 holidays.

Everyone in America knows what about a British

package holiday company.

It makes no sense, right?

Like that, whatever it might be over the years,

all of these trends are starting on TikTok.

So it means that like the cultural side

of entertainment of sports is happening.

And so you can enjoy a sport without really needing to get

deeply invested, or you can also become a mega fan as well.

But this, so that is obviously clear

that it's driving new audiences to the platform.

The one of the challenges that I hear

that sports say is that,

sadly, they're actual sporting content,

because you guys use the definition of sport content

that encompasses stuff like that.

All the content we've been talking about in this.

The bad news is an example, which is great.

And I think it is sports content,

but from sports properties,

typically what they see gets content is

the live match and the highlights only.

It feels like that everything that tells the best

on these platforms typically is not those things.

And it's all the stuff around the edges,

the fan-created stuff,

the more creative ideas like that.

Just how do you talk to sports about that?

Can you say that they just accept it and embrace it?

Or do you say,

you've got a bit of a challenge with your sporting product,

but you create some really cool stuff around the edges

and just focus on that instead

because that was working better?

So for us, it's actually the opposite,

in the sense that all of the user research we've done,

both in-app, off-app,

shows that the number one type of content

uses once he has highlights and recaps.

Whether it's someone who watches a couple of minutes

a week of sports up to like 20 hours

from the super casual to the hardcore fans,

that's the number one type of content.

And on TikTok, it's about the creative highlights we mentioned,

like split screen where the bottom half is

the goal and the top half is the family reacting

or a mic-top celebrity in the audience.

Like, it highlights,

but we've like a TikTok creative spin on it.

But that is so needed and so desired.

All of our research is how important that is.

And we're working with our partners

to increase that supply on the platform.

So there's that part.

And then whenever we have gone live,

we're noticing a really big effect.

So like, messy six and six point four million unique viewers

on that one stream.

The, all of the Fox examples,

those are performing really well.

WWE, for example, they live stream,

so for WrestleMania, they're live stream the year before,

all the way leading up to it.

They'll go live for four hours.

And the amount of viewership on those is staggeringly high,

considering it's a year-old content.

So I think it's a myth actually.

Like, from a right sort of perspective,

the core product is critical on TikTok.

But we're also, as mentioned quite a lot,

and I don't want to overhang the point,

we're quite happy to drive to their core products

so that it's sustainable and really healthy as a sport as well.

It's a creative full value loop back.

I thought that when we had the European tour on the event,

they were pointing to most of the examples they did have,

however, were more the side content

rather than the actual highlights of their work best.

But they also are very good at creating

that showed a shoulder content or more fun stuff.

I'll say not to promote the sports program media awards.

They did win the best short form content.

And it was what they were doing with TikTok.

They set up a program as the sports creator,

sports content creator that they ran.

We're basically running classes for the golfers

on how to make the best content,

but it was sort of behind the scenes.

It was set up, like it wasn't true behind the scenes,

but it would be, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So they did really well there.

But yeah, again, it was all sort of shoulder-y content.

I remember that was saying that was the best performing stuff

for them, which maybe just because they do a really good job with it.

But you can also have these massive viral videos,

which may be really like sometimes we don't even know why.

And then sometimes it's because it was a really funny

behind-the-scenes element.

One of my favorite sports, for example,

is Pekaya Sacka, 2020 World Cup.

His Sack is spelling school.

Him going to all his other teammates

see if they could spell certain lines.

Like, just gold.

It's a comedy.

It's amazing.

It's fun.

And what we've got is these big viral moments,

but also your standard business

is usually great content that people want to consume.

So it's a bit of both.

And if you ask an organization just to look at the mega hits,

then yes, you may see more of that kind of like side as well.

But the content strategy we talked to partners about

is hitting all the different notes.

Well, just a lot of the people we've

talked about, the big organizations, the NFL, FIFA,

what about for maybe some of the smaller,

tier two, tier three organizations?

Because they're not going to be getting money from broadcast

deals.

They have to be relying either on their own D to C platforms

or driving things via social.

How can TikTok work as a platform for some of those?

Because ultimately, the people that listen to us

or people that come to Sportsport New York

in less than 24 hours time, the majority of them

aren't necessarily in those big organizations.

They're representing the different federations in GBs

across the globe.

How would you say, or even some of those emerging

challenger sports, we talk about things like ballers,

league and stuff like that, they do have to be social first.

How does the game plan potentially not to use a pun of your product?

But how does the strategy maybe change for those people

that are playing a different game to others?

Sure.

In many ways, all the benefits of using TikTok

dating back to 2024 still exist.

Like it is an incredible destination for reaching large

audiences and building fan bases.

The hope is with a lot of these tools and these products,

it becomes more and more scaled so that it's

available to absolutely everyone.

So that's one part.

But for, there are great examples of, I think it's

well-bammington federation here of like,

absolutely exploded on TikTok.

Again, enabling their athletes was one of the main ways

and really leaning into TikTok creators.

So it's all out there.

Our teams also work with an array of sports publishers as well.

So it's definitely, therefore, they're taking

for all types of sports.

When it comes to the social first leagues,

they get it better than most.

So they're definitely fine when it's the King's Leagues

or ball of seats.

I definitely watch more badminton and table tennis

of late, and I think it's possibly because of,

or that I also got them based in Sweden.

And one of the best guys in the world is Swedish guys.

So they talk about a lot.

Well, it's interesting.

You say that we interviewed, or I interviewed,

her name is Stella Tran.

She's a, she's on the world, badminton tour.

Yeah.

And she's, I think she's still a student.

I think it's Stanford or UCL.

I think one of those, and she's basically

balancing her career, but one thing she did reference,

the stuff that she's doing on TikTok.

So the fact that you mentioned badminton

aligns with an interview I had done back

maybe a few months.

So if you're listening, you go back in the archives

and find that, but she did reference.

So I'm not surprised that badminton is one of those

that is taking off.

Yeah, for sure.

And it's like, you know, fifth division football clubs

in England are doing incredibly well.

Like it is, it is very much a platform available

to anyone to succeed on.

And then I just, we're wrapping things up.

In terms of, is there anything you've learned

in your times as you've been a TikTok

or has there been a particular activation

or something where there was a learning

that came out of it, whether, you know,

how users consumed it or, you know,

is there something that surprised you, you know,

coming in from when you originally came in

to just how you've seen something perform?

Honestly, I recently had the performance on live

is quite surprising because we're not necessarily

out in market being like, everyone must go live.

It's not like a critical part of what

we've been talking about the last year,

but it's always been something we wanted to, like,

experiment and find showcases, find good examples.

And it's very much clear that that's what we've been doing

versus it's the strategy.

But it makes me think that more and more,

our partners can use TikTok live to grow those audiences,

but also find new ways of interacting with us.

So just very recently, I'm actually quite surprised

that some of those results.

And then, I think, overall,

what we've been able to build in just a year,

all of these different products put together,

I haven't mentioned things like post campaigns.

There's a whole load of different areas

where they didn't exist in 2034.

So it's an amazing company when it comes to rapid development

and very much entrepreneurial side.

So all of this comes together like,

what will you'll do this year?

I'm quite excited as well.

Well, I guess we'll have to,

maybe that gives us a reason to come back in 12 months time.

A, do you use this incredible studio,

but also for you to update us on what might be rolling out?

I won't put you on the spot to make you give us all the plans now,

but because I think it is interesting,

because retrospectively,

the first ever episode of Streamtime Sports,

Nick, you did with Rob Shaw at the time was at Facebook.

And what was really interesting,

that was nearly coming up on four plus five years now,

is that the time Facebook was trying to acquire live sports,

right, and back when it was Twitter before X,

they were also looking to acquire live sports rights.

Well, they had it, they realized that was not the right playbook.

Yeah, by then.

Yeah, very true.

So it's just interesting that in that short period of time,

we've sort of seen how social media has changed

a different role where it plays within live sports.

And like I said, going back to the original episode,

they had live sports rights where they've now pretty much kind of

agreed probably not the model for us.

So it will be really interesting,

just to sort of see like in four or five years,

does that swing back around?

Is it something completely different?

I think it just goes to show like even on this show,

or our show, how much that's all changed over the course of the years,

and where TikTok could be in a relatively short period of time,

based on what you guys are trying to innovate.

And the key distinction is that we're just there

to encourage and support broadcasters

who are going to live with their content,

versus like out to a quiet global rights.

Or basically chasing roller and how to buy a live media rights.

It's an enablement thing, rather than a platform purchasing.

Thank you for doing that, just to let me know for you.

That's very good.

But it's about finding like just a tipping point

that it makes sense for people to use it as a tool.

And we may be getting towards that as well,

which is a fascinating place to be in,

having watched where the industry has gone

through the last 10, 15 years as well.

So I think it's, again, we're more complimentary side.

It's the partial element that I'm interested in.

The singular player, the first 15 minutes,

whatever it might be, so that we can have this in or off

another feather in our hat of being a fan building

marketing kind of part of it.

Final question I've got to wrap things up.

I've talked a lot about data.

You're giving a lot of data to partners.

What are the main metrics that you are pointing to

as measures of success on the platform?

Oh, caveat why.

Typically, when I see investor decks and social media

performance decks and so forth,

there's normally one thing.

It's a follower base, it's normally the number.

All just massive views is kind of the two main things

they're always pointed, which is the big,

the big shiny numbers.

I'm, my thesis here or theory is that because of this,

like giving over rise to fan creators,

getting stitching of content, et cetera,

that you're not following like priorities

and really follower bases anymore,

or it's it is visibility, it's viewership,

and then the ability to track that more widely.

Is that kind of the crux of it?

Yeah, for sure.

So if you just walked in and showed Lilliga

the amount of video views they have on their own content,

they know that information.

That is, or in their own analytics,

it's probably an authority analytics, you can check.

What's more interesting is show Lilliga

the size of the video views and watch time

of every piece of content that's hashtag Lilliga.

And then to say to them, okay, we'll take that entire funnel

and put a link that goes through to your destination on it.

So it's showing them that sport,

they're total interests on TikTok,

or even where possible,

showing them the total number of creations.

So how many people are posting content

which Lilliga related?

And then obviously, follow is a great,

but follow is don't necessarily translate

in the same way as how long people are watching content.

Are they finishing the videos as well?

These kind of metrics are the ones we want

our partners to focus on.

Awesome, well Raul, I appreciate you A

for hosting us once again,

but also sharing the stage with us and all your insights.

And like I said, it sounds like

we're gonna have to make this a thing.

So hopefully this isn't the last time

that we would do this year with you.

Well, we said that a lot of times.

Yeah, it's a great job.

It's a great job and it's a great job.

But at home, I'm looking to...

Well, you're looking at the team in the background

to get the schedule in there.

Well, I know I see you all the things.

That's all, that's fine.

I appreciate it Raul, thanks for joining us.

Right, awesome.

Thank you.