Imperfect Paradise: Is your smoke-damaged home safe? The toxic aftermath of LA’s 2025 fires

0:00Celebrate 30 years of culture, community, and tradition at the Free Sandman Well Power Wow. Experience Native American dancers, singers, artists, and tribal communities from across North America at one of seven Californias, most celebrated cultural gatherings. September 18th to the 20th, more info at socalpalwow.com. Support comes from Pasadena Playhouse presenting the visit, a haunting, twisted, and truly grotesque comedy where an entire community confronts the question. How far are you willing to go for a billion dollars? September 9th through October 4th, tickets are on sale now at PasadenaPlayhouse.org. Hey, this isn't perfect paradise. I'm Nureta Moreno. More than 16,000 structures were destroyed in the palisades and eaten fires. So many residents lost their homes and had to make the difficult decision of whether to rebuild if they had the resources to do so or leave forever. And then there are the homes that survived.

1:02A year and a half later, you would think that these houses would be safe to live in. Their owners back home, except in many cases, they're not. Smoke contamination has left residents concerned about what they can't see indoors. And that's because of the untested toxins in their homes, conflict around post-fire cleaning and who's responsible for it has left firefighters battling with insurance companies. I wanted to know what was in that sort of charnage because that's where the critical information lies. We would love to move back to our house, but we're not willing to sacrifice our health and the health of our children. A new set of bills would change the rules around testing and smoke remediation in California. If Governor Gavin Newsom signs them into law, that's today on Imperfect Paradise.

2:02Joining us now is David Wagner, LA is corresponding, covering housing here in Southern California. Hey, David. Hi, Narada. David, it's been about a year and eight months since the LA fires. And I want to get a better sense of where we're at when it comes to rebuilding. Rebuilding is going slowly. And that's to be expected based on our experience with past fires in California. We know that the county and city of LA has issued close to 5,000 building permits so far, but only a couple hundred of those homes have actually finished rebuilding. Many homeowners are working to return, but others have decided they can't rebuild. They've already sold their lots in many cases, often to investors whose building plans are not yet clear. Then there are the thousands of people who aren't really dealing with the question of rebuilding at all. Their homes survived the fires. They don't have anything to rebuild, but they are not able to reoccupy their homes in many cases because they haven't been adequately tested

3:03or cleaned for contaminants like lead, asbestos, and other heavy metals that were picked up by the smoke from these fires and deposited into homes nearby. So many people are still fighting with their insurance companies over this testing and cleaning and their stuck in limbo. And so in your reporting, you talked to someone who is stuck in that limbo situation. What can you tell us about them? Yeah, one person who is in this state of limbo is Dawn Fanning. She's a resident of Alta Dina and she's also the managing director of Eaton Fire Residence United. Now Dawn's home did survive the fires, but she hasn't been able to go back yet because she's been in an ongoing dispute with her insurance over the safety and cleanup of her home. The night of the fire was traumatic, but what I have had to go through since then is more traumatic, at least for me, being constantly gaslit and delayed and denied

4:04and just an absolute nightmare. Okay, so what happened next? Dawn, like many people, was concerned about this postfire contamination. And you know, rightfully so, remember right after the fire, public health officials were telling all of us to limit our exposure to ash from the fires. They were telling us to get it professionally cleaned out of our homes if possible because they said it could harm your eyes, your nose and skin, it could cause asthma attacks or difficulty breathing or lead to other negative health effects. And Dawn says she wanted her insurance company to do thorough testing of her home to find out what was in there. That's where she says she ran into trouble. I absolutely refuse to accept what they wanted to do, which is a sit-charn ash test, which basically proves residue from a fire. I wanted to know what was in that sit-charn ash because that's where the critical information lies. And I said, no, I'm getting a full panel.

5:06So Dawn says she actually decided to hire an industrial hygienist to do that testing. I went ahead and paid for that testing and found out I had the worst of it and all of my contents are a total loss because of it because you can't wash out leadness best is. Okay, see I don't own a home, but when I think about paying for home insurance, it feels like thorough testing and cleaning your home after a major disaster like a fire is something that should be covered by your insurance. But it sounds like that isn't always the case. So can you just tell us what is the standard practice here? Yeah, lots of homeowners say they've been running into this issue. They say their insurance companies have basically told them, well, maybe there is lead in asbestos in your home, but we don't know that it was put there by the fire. Maybe those contaminants were already present before the disaster. And to some extent, that may be true. You know, there are many LA homes that have these contaminants in them

6:07regardless of the fires, but for homes located so close to these major burn zones, the fires likely introduced new toxins or made existing conditions a lot worse. And in some cases, insurers did offer to pay for extensive testing and cleaning, but often homeowners had to fight for those things. Because under the law today, there really are no across the board rules on addressing postfire smoke damage. So because there's no way to know for sure that the home didn't already have contaminants, then many of these folks are just out of luck. And so did they end up just paying out of pocket or how do they do it? Many of them did just end up paying out of pocket. This has really been a case by case thing between homeowners and their insurance companies. Some of them tested and cleaned and got what they wanted to return home safely. The others have been still battling to get those things. Now I should add that Don,

7:08fanning told me her insurance did eventually pay her back for the cost of that testing that she originally paid for out of pocket. She says they paid her back about eight months later. All this time, Don has been part of a larger effort by residents of Alta Dena to make sure that homes across the community are getting properly tested and cleaned. Last year, Eaton Fire residents united this group that Don manages decided to take a closer look at testing results and what they found confirmed some of their worst suspicions. Coming up, Alta Dena residents take postfire testing into their own hands. The results and the health implications stay with us. Hey, if you're listening right now and you enjoy the show, take a second to follow imperfect paradise on your podcast app. It really helps us out. Imperfect paradise is supported by Gordon and Donna Crawford

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10:12Hey, this is Imperfect Paradise. I'm Nareida Moreno back with David Wagner, LAS Corp. covering housing in Southern California. So David, before the break, you were telling us about this group of Al Tadina residents who came together last year to get their homes tested themselves. And they did it because they were concerned about post-fire contamination. Can you tell us just how that happened and what did they find? Yeah, they were worried basically that the cleaning happening in these homes that suffered this smoke damage wasn't good enough. They were worried that many contaminants might still be present even after professional remediation companies came in and cleaned. So, Eaton Fire residents united got dozens of homeowners in the area to share their testing results from both before and after their homes were cleaned, most of them by professional remediation companies. Last November, they released this data and scientists looked at the results and said they were concerning. Almost two-thirds of the homes had led on their floors at levels far above EPA screening thresholds

11:18and about one-third of the tested homes were positive for asbestos. And David, what do we know about the health impacts of these contaminants? The presence of lead at these levels has been linked with neurological problems, especially in young kids and pregnant women. Asbestos can raise your risk of developing lung cancer, and many homes also tested positive for heavy metals that have been associated with things like kidney and liver damage. I wanted to get an outside opinion on these results, so I called François Tiso. He's a Caltech Geochemistry professor. He was not involved with this study. He has been looking into testing results related to the fire through his own lab. He agreed with the Eaton Fire residents United team that the results they were putting out raise and big concerns.

12:36He's led. It takes it and it puts it where it would put calcium normally. So in the bones, in the brain, so that leads to mental deficiencies, that leads to weak skeletons, especially in children. Yeah, that's so scary. I mean, I've done some reporting on lead in schools. And when the fires broke out, I did think immediately about that too, after fires, just how damaging lead can be for kids, especially. But David, what did it mean for folks who were hoping to move back into their homes? For many of them, it meant they still couldn't return home. Their insurance company may have been telling them that more testing and further cleaning is no longer needed. It's safe to return. But some homeowners feel they can't trust that guidance. So they're still in temporary housing. They're in apartments. They're in other rental homes. Sometimes that is still being covered by insurance by these additional living expenses outlined in their plan. Some people have already ran out of that. Additional living expenses and they're paying for this rent out of pocket.

13:38For example, Dawn and her family, they still have not moved back into their home. They've had to move a few times into less expensive places, make the funds last as long as possible. My house looks like it did on January 7th. So the contents are still there. Cleaning has not happened. And we've seen specific insurance companies come under fire for allegedly failing to address smoke damage. LA County has already filed a lawsuit against state farm over many issues reported by homeowners with policies through state farm, including a lack of testing and cleaning to address smoke damage, according to the allegations. The county has also announced an investigation of farmers' insurance because they say so many homeowners in the county are reporting the same issues, getting help with addressing the smoke damage. Now we reached out to both companies for comment. State Farm sent us a statement saying they strongly disagree with LA County's characterization and that they've already worked through about 78% of claims and paid out about $1 billion

14:44related to smoke damage. Farmers said we do not believe the county's investigation accurately characterizes our actions or practices. And they said they operate in accordance with applicable laws and regulations. Do we know just how many people are in a situation that is similar to dawns? Like how widespread is this issue? We know that 13,000 smoke damage claims were filed right after the fires. This is according to the California Department of Insurance that involves many thousands of families and people in these households that could still be displaced. Now some of them may have gotten the cleaning they needed. They may have returned already, but we know that others are still displaced. And this issue also affects renters. In some ways it can put them in an even more uncertain position than homeowners because they can't call up the homeowner's insurance company and pressure them to test and clean. They're really at the mercy of their landlords who own the property, who pay for that homeowner's insurance and who are ultimately responsible for making homes

15:46habitable again after a disaster. Shortly after the fires last year, I interviewed Renter Andrew Morgan. His family's home was engulfed in ash. He says it smelled really badly of smoke after the fires. This family, their kids, they were all hopping around to different hotels and short-term rentals in the weeks after the fire. Andrew said his family wanted to get back to normal, but they just weren't being given the information they needed to know that they could return safely. We would love to move back to our house, but we're not willing to sacrifice our health and the health of our children. If it was just like a couple hundred bucks, like sure, I'll just do it, you know, this is the homeowner's responsibility, but I'll just eat it because I just want to move back. It's just it's not going to be that little amount of money. It's just a sunk cost into a house that we don't own being managed by a company that is not helpful or sympathetic in this moment. We just feel stuck. It's a terrible feeling.

16:47Andrew says the landlord told them they could break their lease if they didn't want to move back into the home as it was. Andrew says he doesn't know if the landlord ever cleaned the home before renting it out again. Wait, so David, they couldn't file a smoke damage claim. That would have to be the homeowners. That's right. So renters, if you have renters insurance, that would pay out for your loss of your personal possessions, maybe your bed or your sheets or your furniture was a loss because of this damage. renters insurance would cover that, but it would not clean the property that you yourself don't own. That is covered by homeowners insurance. Eventually Sacramento did pass a law making it crystal clear that cleaning a home after a disaster like this is a landlord's responsibility. But now that just means that landlords have to rely on their insurance companies to cover this testing and this cleaning before the landlords can then start collecting rent again from their tenants and tell them it's safe to move back in and inhabit the unit again.

17:49Some renters I've interviewed since the fires have been wanting to return home, but when they either weren't getting clear answers from their landlords or their landlords were just straight up refusing to clean, they just gave up. Eventually Andrew says his family did find another place to rent in Al-Tedina, but for other displaced renters, it's unclear if they're ever going to be part of Al-Tedina or other communities that experience these fires ever again. Coming up, the two new laws that aim to address this lack of standard testing practices and whether they might have unintended financial consequences. That's on imperfect paradise. Support for LAS comes from South Coast Repertory, presenting into the woods, Cinderella, Jack, Little Red Riding Hood, Rapunzel. You know their stories, but you've never seen them like this.

18:51Steven Sondheim at his finest and James Lapine at his most imaginative. Into the woods brings beloved fairy tale characters together in a Broadway masterpiece filled with wit, wonder, music, and heart. Celebrate its 40th anniversary and discover what happens after, happily ever after. Experience the magic live on stage September 12th through October 18th, tickets at SCR.org. Support for LAS comes from Pasadena Playhouse presenting the visit, a haunting, twisted and truly grotesque comedy starring Tony Award winner Jefferson Mays and Mad Men's Melinda Page Hamilton. When the richest woman in the world returns to her struggling hometown, she's ready and willing to rescue it from ruin on one condition. Experience the visit at Pasadena Playhouse beginning September 9th. Tickets are on sale now at PasadenaPlayhouse.org. Hey, this is Imperfect Paradise. I'm Nareita Moreno back with David Wagner,

19:52LAS Correspondent covering housing in Southern California. So David, let's get into those two new bills that are looking to address this lack of standard testing practices for post-fire testing and cleanup. What exactly would they do and how would they help fire survivors? Yeah, so first they would establish this presumption that when a fire happens, when ash is deposited into a home, that home is contaminated and does need testing and cleaning. Proponents say this is going to cut down on all the fighting and litigation we've seen between homeowners and insurance companies over what impact the fires even had in the first place. Second, these bills would require insurance companies to keep paying for a homeowner's additional living expenses until the home is cleaned, tested and determined to be safe for reoccupancy. So homeowners would still get their rent at their temporary living situation covered until that cleaning happened. And perhaps most importantly, what these bills would do is require the state's

20:57department of toxic substances control to establish testing and cleaning standards for lead and asbestos by the end of 2028. And then the department would also need to set guidance on heavy metals and other contaminants by the end of 2029. And the goal here, proponents say, is to make sure that everyone, you know, home owners, insurance companies, local government officials, everyone knows exactly what the rules and requirements are when it comes to testing and cleaning, smoke damage, home so that people can get back in safely. Don Fanning, who is still displaced from her Altadina home, thinks these changes will really help families like hers dealing with major fires in the future. It would have just helped thousands of people get home sooner. Everybody would have had a direct pass to returning home instead of this obstacle course that we have all been through.

21:58And what about the folks who are opposing the legislation? What do they have to say? Some insurance industry groups have put up a fight against these bills, the California Association of Realitors and one major utilities company, San Diego Gas and Electric joined them in that opposition. And the opponents basically argued that this is the wrong approach to regulating the issue of smoke damage. They argued that a smoke damage task force had been set up by the California Department of Insurance after the fires. It's been looking into this issue for the past year and a half. And they said that lawmakers should not be now handing off this regulation and the creation of these rules to the state's Department of Toxic Substances Control. And what about the state? Like what about the California Department of Insurance? How are they reacting? We do know that California Insurance Commission or Riccardo Lara is in support of this legislation. So at least he is in favor of handing over regulation of this issue to the Department of Toxic Substances Control. And David, there have been a lot of big fires in the past in California's

23:04history. So what I'm wondering is just why is this only happening now? These fires were really different from other major fires in California history. You know, this was not just limited to a rural area. These were big urban fires that burned thousands of homes. Many of them older homes with lead paint and asbestos. These fires also destroyed a lot of cars, appliances, other manmade materials. And that all means that the smoke produced by these fires. It was a lot more toxic than smoke produced from fires that mainly are burning through forests and vegetation. And I think that's what we're seeing with this policy change right now. Lawmakers are responding with new laws for what are really new kinds of fire risks. And do we have any sense of how likely these bills are to pass and actually become law here in

24:07California? Yeah, advocates say Governor Newsom's office was involved in the negotiations over these bills. They say they think he's likely to sign it. But we don't know that until he puts his signature on the legislation. He has until the end of September to make a decision about that. And then his term is over. That's right. And if the new rules do pass, how would they affect insurance premiums? Could the cost then get passed down to consumers like you and me? That's a really important question, especially at this time when we know that premiums are already going up. And many homeowners are even just getting their policies dropped entirely. So I put this question about costs to Assemblymember John Herabedian. He's the author of one of the bills. He told me he thinks costs will actually stay steady because putting clear guidelines in place will cut down on confusion, delay, and litigation. Right now there are no rules. It's whatever the insurance company wants on a given day based on a given policy for that individual unique homeowner.

25:10That's very costly. And those costs are borne by the survivors. And they're actually borne by the system because premiums go up when unnecessary litigation occurs. When you legislate something, you don't have to litigate it later. And because of that, the system will actually be more efficient. And I think this will help in terms of bringing premiums maybe not down, but at least calling them steady rather than seeing a rising cost. But some insurance industry experts look at this whole situation and say rising costs are inevitable. They say climate change is driving up global temperatures. It's making the conditions for devastating fires like this more likely in Southern California. Gary Yo, a Wesleyan University economist says insurance companies need to do something to price in these rising risks and liabilities. And if you don't let insurance companies do that, they're just going to say, oh, screw it. I'm wondering if it's not going to ensure those properties. And you don't want that. Yo says forcing insurance companies to keep premiums down while their liabilities go up. That could just push more people onto California's

26:16fair plan. This is the state run program that offers insurance of last resort. It was really designed for those few homeowners who can't get traditional insurance anywhere else. But the number of fair plan policies across the state has increased more than five fold in the last decade. That's because insurance companies are pulling out of areas at high risk of fires. About one in every 20 single family homes in California is now on the fair plan. So what does that mean for the future of homeowners insurance in California? This is ultimately a story about how we adapt to climate change. More and more Californians are going to be at risk of fires like the ones we saw last year. And that's going to put a ton of pressure on the insurance market. The question is, can we keep requiring insurers to do more while also expecting coverage to stay affordable? On the other hand, we do want to make sure that people paying for insurance can rely on it

27:17to get back into a clean home after a disaster. Gary Yo, that Wesleyan University economist, says, it makes sense for lawmakers to be tackling the issue of smoke damage now because more and more people are going to be likely to face these problems in the future. He said it's not going to be easy, but if California lawmakers can strike the right balance here between keeping insurance markets viable and getting people back into safe homes, they could set an example for lawmakers in other states. They have to create it and make it up as they go along, they'll make mistakes, but if they do it right, there'll be a model for other places that are facing similar extraordinary consequences of climate change. David, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. David Wagner is the LA's correspondent covering housing in Southern California, special thanks to Dana Littlefield, senior editor covering civics and democracy,

28:21health, housing, and homelessness. I'm your host, Nadei Tha Morino, James Chau is our producer this episode. Natalie Chudnopsky is our senior producer, Katherine Mailhouse is the executive producer of the show and our director of content development, engineering, mixing, and original music by E. Scott Kelly. In perfect paradise is a production of LA's studios. Hi, it's your midday host, Nadei Tha Morino. The news doesn't stop after your morning commute. Stay connected throughout your day with the story shaping Southern California, the nation, and the world. Whether you're at work, taking a break, or running errands, the mobile app makes it easy to listen wherever you are. And LA's gives you all of the context you need to make sense of it all. Download the LA's app today and stay informed anytime, anywhere.