India crowned T20 World Cup champions, McCullum set to stay and Bethell’s latest statement hundred

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Hello and welcome to the Wiz and cricket weekly podcast.

India a T20 world champions for the second tournament in a row.

Army as Rana and with me this week are Lawrence Booth and Phil Walker.

Let's start on the World Cup final. India,

Lawrence are 31 from 33 across the last four ICC events. For all the talent that they have

at their disposal, they're also just leading the way white ball cricket is played at the moment.

If you look at who they've done it with, no superstars really, no Kohli or Rohit any more

and even the guys in their 20s, no Gil, no Pan, no Jai Swah.

Yeah, they found a formula haven't they? And part of that I think is getting rid of big names

who in the past might have sort of forced their way into the team and clogged it up even dropping

Shubman Gil from the squad ahead of the competition was the kind of thing they might not have done

two years ago. They're now, they're caching in on the huge talent that they have at domestic

level, guys like Sanju Samson, Abhishek Sharma, Ishan Kishan, I mean they're all scoring it,

you know, 180, 200 per 100 and it's basically this could be the next 10, 15 years. There was a

tweet from Hardick Pan GSD saying I want to play for another 10 years and win another 10

ICC global events, which you know, good luck to him, it's a great ambition, but it's

it's not looking good for the rest of the world, is it?

Hmm, I feel as a spectacle, slightly disappointing given the lack of context, it felt like there was

game over four or so over into the game, New Zealand boarding eight wide in the power play there.

Um, normally very impressive seam attack, not quite firing. Um, but at the same time the,

the batting skill that the Indian top six and seven has is, is incredible to watch like a player

like Sanju Samson, Abhishek Sharma, when they get going, they are incredible.

Do you think the New Zealand, um, collapsed in the face of it a little bit because they played such

tight nippy cricket all to Anaman and then it seemed like they fell apart just in even in that first

four or five overs. Do you think it was not so much the scale of the, the moment or the spectacle

itself, but just knowing that when you look down that top seven, it's so terrifying and so humbling

when you stare at it that perhaps that gets into your head, it almost before a ball is balled,

but it was, it was odd to see them essentially kind of invert so much of the good stuff that

they'd done over the last few weeks in that first half an hour. What did you think? Uh, I don't know

exactly what, what the reason for it, but they fell into the trap that I think a lot of

bowling outfits fell into this tournament, the, trying to do too many things.

The obsession with slower balls, when things are working, maybe this is too much for an old school

view of looking at things, but I think with a new ball, it only does anything for such a short

space of time. Just sort of just, just bowl the really good ball. Yeah. And also that doesn't

work. I think you do tap into something there because you feel like it's like the, when I lead

came up against former and he figured that he had a minute to knock him out or else he was just

going to get pummeled for six or seven rounds. It's how we threw that open right in the first,

the first 20, 20 seconds of that fight, like a kind of insult punch. You wouldn't do it against

an under 15 amateur boxer thinking that's the only way you can win this fight. And it felt a

little bit, when you watch teams go up against this Indian team, it feels like you have like a blink

of an eye moment to take an early wicket or two. And if you don't, then such as the

propulsive nature of that batting lineup, then you kind of know that you have to then play

the perfect game with the bat yourself. And that must get into their heads. They had one moment

wasn't even really a moment. You probably forgot about it, but Samson,

Intide Edge, one on two is and didn't pick it up initially. I thought it was kind of hitting

the back leg and it looked like it would be hitting the top of leg stump. There was a tiny

at the inside edge on it. And then after that, that was it. That was like a quarter chance,

not even there. And then after that, it's just just unstoppable.

I mean, I felt New Zealand overthought it. So they didn't pick Colmer Conkey.

Yeah, which was odd. Played an important role in the win over South Africa,

getting the cock and Rikkelton out successive balls, ball one over, but effectively put New Zealand

top in that game. Some people say the analyst played too much of a role in picking that New Zealand

side. They decided, arm and a bat wasn't going to turn as much. And therefore they did have

an offspring on the team. Glen Phillips kind of better than part time, but he balled one over.

It went for five. So why did he only ball one over? Matt Henry only balled the first over.

I think he should always bowl two up front because he makes such good use of the the new ball.

In fact, he kept the first four balls of the innings with dots. Phil mentioned one of the

there and LB and then Samson got older and for six. But first two overs gone for 12 with Henry

and Phillips. And then they, because they brought in Duffy instead of Maconkey, he has to come on.

He goes the distance Ferguson was going the distance and suddenly they lose control. I think

you're right. I think this India team force opponents to make decisions that they wouldn't normally

make. And New Zealand was spooked. But let's be honest, they always get spooked in finals. I mean,

that with the world of cricket, I hate to say it would have been better served by a South Africa

India final because I think it would have been a closer game. I'm South Africa, the only team in

that tournament to beat an India. And yes, they, they bottled it in the semi. But I think they would

have given India better game than New Zealand brilliantly though the key we stood together.

Yeah, I think that's a fair point on New Zealand. I think it's just an amazing to get to final

the final. There's a tweet from friend of the show Tim Wigmore. New Zealand have now reached five out

the last 10 finals across men's global event since 2019, a staggering achievement for a board with

less annual revenue than sorry. They are also the current women's T20 World Cup champions. We're

talking about Cole Maconkey Phil. He's someone who, but prior to this tournament, have never played

and still hasn't played any franchise cricket outside of New Zealand's domestic T20 competition.

Last summer was playing club cricket in England, but the fact that using the getting to this

stage is a remarkable achievement. It undoubtedly is, but we all feared for the spectacle going into

Sunday. It was a hard game to get up for, I found. After the semi finals, which in their own way

were unique games in themselves. In some respects, New Zealand's performance against South Africa was

their final and obviously then the England, India classic. It was a hard game to get up for,

I found, going into it because it was hard to concoct any narrative in your head that didn't

play out the way exactly the way it did. It's very difficult to watch a game of sport when

you know barring basically a sporting miracle, you know after half an hour or you know after 10

percent of the game what's going to happen. I have this thing when rugby's on and you kind of

you know who's going to win after two minutes. By the time they were 60 for naught or four,

the game was done. We knew Lightning wasn't going to strike twice with Fin Allen and all the rest of

it. So it was painful, but the more general point is obviously New Zealand are an you know

absolutely integral part of the fabric of World Cricket, but at the risk of boiling everything

down to resources, money, breadth, scope and all the rest of it, in the light of another dominant

Indian hegemonic performance and in the context of this kind of understandably exuberant

buoyant language, the rhetoric of Hardik and others, and I admire it, but the unapologetic

desire to dominate, to be an empire, the new empire of cricket, I admire it, but it's hard not

to talk about these things therefore in that kind of context and so it's not a snidey point to

point out that New Zealand have the resources that sorry can better because that's utterly relevant

to the carve-up of modern cricket. And I guess as well specifically in T20 cricket,

this is supposed to be the volatile format, right? And India have become essentially

indestructible in the format that's supposed to give you the greatest volatility and

sure they came closer being knocked out on a couple of occasions, but that is too back-to-back

toward them. And I guess part of the reason why they're so hard to beat is I think in

Jasperic Bummer they may have one of the greatest everbollars. How hard he does he rank for you?

Well, it's a couple of years back in the Almanac and the editors' notes, I think it was after

the series in Australia when he took 30 oddwickets at 13, I said he's in the debate as one of

the all-time greats. I mean it's very hard to compare here as as we know, how do you compare

Jasperic Bummer with Sydney Barnes or George Lohman? You can't. Or you can compare these players

to as their contemporaries. And Jasperic Bummer has come out of this tournament yet again,

a career-best in the World Cup final. This is a guy who rises to the occasion. He's got what

the average 12 with an economy rate of six. I mean he's a ludicrous figure. And you knew that

the moment it was the same in the semi-final for England, the moment India got 250, you're thinking

what will they get off Bummer at maximum 30 runs? What does that mean? They have to get off the other

so the pressure goes on to the other 16 overs essentially. And you can tell that the batting team

is making those calculations themselves. That's right. And then his slower ball, you know, he got

Brooke first ball with the slower ball in the semi, he got Ravindra first ball with the slower ball

and then no slower ball, Yorkers at the end. And I'm sorry, but what are you going to do against

them? It's he's a you know he's a phenomenon of the age and an absolute delight to watch.

I think it's perhaps a little bit uncharitable to compare Archer and Bummer, but it's nonetheless

I think quite instructive when you consider that they were probably them and a couple of Australians

were the stars of the IPL four or five years ago with the ball obviously. And you saw how in that

semi-final Archer's approach became so garbled and muddied that he ended up trying to do everything

at once and and result in doing nothing other than just telegraphing the latest, the latest

like out the box option. And it became very, very easy to deal with and it was illogical a lot of

what he was doing. And you saw Bummer are in the semi-final against England who bowed to over the

Yorkers and it felt like it was like a throwback, you know. And then you saw him against New Zealand

and then he got the full bat but boxer tricks out. And so he has the the variety and the like the

versatility to adapt depending on whatever's required in that moment, depending on the pitch,

depending on the game situation. He is a master and then a little bit more on top of that for sure,

for sure. He got Man of the Match presumably, right? In the final, but not the semi-final.

No, I know that Samson said well he should have done in the semi-final. I'm glad he got Man of

the Match in that final. It would have been ludicrous to have given it to any number of of hitters when

he's your point of interest. And this is this is a good thing with 20 over cricket that

it's an oversimplification to say well the ball just keeps fines at the boundary all the time

as batters become more and more propulsive as they are and the game shifts ever more in their favor

in 20 over cricket. The really good bowlers become all the more important and so and so it's

right and proper that Bummer is the story, the story of last week. And it's right and proper

that if you like Mitchell Stark goes for a mad amount of money or Cummins goes for a scene amount

of money because they are the difference makers in an otherwise quite sort of like monotonous run

of outstanding beef pakes running in one after the other. I completely agree. I think actually

follows as the game need to be a bit more agile in how they describe performances. So in the semi-final

Bummer on paper one for 33 or four overs. It's the performance of the game. His economy rate

is essentially 50% better than the match average. That's the extreme. But even within the same

game I thought I'd do a sheet ball brilliantly. He goes from about 10s yet one for 41 or four

doesn't look great on paper but that was a very very good performance in the context. I just

think that people who follow cricket both in the media but also fans who go on social media

et cetera should just be able to describe those but what was as being really good even if

historically those numbers aren't so pretty. Word quickly for Fin Allen by the way. 33 ball 100

in the semi-finals as the black caps chased 170 in 12.5 overs against the Africa.

Is this a brutal game though isn't it because you tried to get himself out three times in the

five minutes he was in on Sunday and walks away with his tail between his legs but yeah what

what a knock. It was a week of extraordinary innings and what we've not talked about but you

talked about a lot on our Patreon episode on Thursday Phil and just on the Patreon. I'm all

talked out on that. We are going to be very busy over the next few months even though England

aren't playing again until the start of the international summer in late May early June we're

going to have an extra weekly show just on the county championship throughout April and May

and an extra weekly show and whatever the county story or competition is that week throughout

the entirety of the six months six months English summer. Phil Bethel what innings.

Completed the set is about 12 years old he's already completed the three format hundreds set

only three other English male crickets have done before. It's the most complete T-2100 I've ever

seen in Englishman play for the combination of style, class, up top intelligence, control,

composure and a kind of sort of gentle butchery in there as well the way that he did it it was just

extraordinary there was touch that little dink late late cut off of a wide yorker that was

just inside the tram lines off our steep sink had no right to play that shot no right to conceive

that shot and it comes right off the middle hitting three sixes in a row and then having the

audacity just to take a single up to long off. Well that was a shot out of those four you were most

pleased with the single for one. Not the reverse switch it for six. An Englishman well it was a

stokes model wasn't it was a stokes carbon copy of lion at leads um but you know bantan did it the

right way it two sixes and got out to the next ball clean bowl tried a bit of third he did it the

right way he did it the human way but Bethel three sixes and then just punches one quietly up to

long off it was an innings that had um that reminded us that if you are born to bat then nothing

stops you not age not experience not rawness nothing can stop you and there were echoes of that

Sydney in that 140 yard or whatever it was 150 yard I can't remember and there were screaming

echoes of it in this particular innings I know he's good I know he's really really good but that

that innings in that in the context of that game that's shifted him up another notch in in my

reckoning did you think he he was this good already um just as a comparison Bethel right now is

201 days younger than Harry Brook was when he made his first England appearance and as Phil says

Bethel's already complete the set ODI test and T-2900 is that well I made my mind up on Bethel

and in New Zealand in late 24 um it's out there for that tour and he he forget the sort of three

second innings half centuries where he showed off how good he was the the first innings he came

in he he only got ten but he lined up so beautifully the great is ten in ten it was and he made

holy pope look look what he is which is quite a jumpy nervy player and England then messed up I

every time I see Bethel now it sort of angers me about how the wasted year for Jacob Bethel and

I'm not saying it cost England the ashes but I think they'd have had a better crack at winning them

had he been in from the start um that hundred against South Africa the um you lit it utility bowl

at the end of last season I wrote a piece after that saying this is innings that proves uh Bethel

should be in number three and the actually I got all sorts of stick on social media it doesn't

prove anything it's a it's one game so look I mean there's bloke I proved it to me so I wrote like

a like a leader thing in that magazine um it's basically echoing that um that that was the innings

that clinched it for me really there was a purity to it technical purity to it um combined with

all of the modern all modcon stuff you know that you now get you expect with modern players but

the Andrew Miller wrote in the magazine actually um this sort of mad hybrid or wild hybrid of

thought gower and cook and he's having a bit of fun with England sort of south paws but

there is an element of that because there is that I would actually throw strouse into there I think

the way that he left it in that innings and in that tour stay side on in test cricket he bats on

middle and legs stay side on his judgment of the swinging ball outside the the left hand as

eyeline is he's immaculate was immaculate through that series um and so he has the the old world

foundations combined with with not just the new funk but also just a natural crispness to the

to the way that he plays he he is honestly you don't want to get carried away but then you can't

help yourself sorry you just can't help yourself it's not a very lucky because he's he's going to

be the best player in the world they're lucky but that's it the treatment of Bethel is a reminder

that for all the the basketball chat and for all the innovation English cricket can still be stuck

in conservatism now first of all we got Bethel not batting above five for Warwickshire I mean disgraceful

decision that reflects very poorly on county cricket then we've got stokes essentially more than

more than McCullough more than um key sticking with uh with Pope ahead of Bethel when all the evidence

screamed otherwise and we we saw it again in this world cup I'm afraid was sticking with Jos Butler

as opener when it was clear not that not just that he was out of form but he his confidence had gone

and I'm afraid that 25 of 17 in the semi-final against India was looks good on paper but he

needed to have 35 of 17 to justify hanging around for that long so exactly to watch that innings as well

the stubbornness remains in the England setup and it has cost them twice now no 100 percent I mean

that that semi-final I think um from my point of view it's a very very good tournament when you

factor in that if you look at the most experienced and high profile T20 players in that team

Jos Butler has a stinker Phil Salt has won very good performance but other than that not much in

that tournament Joff Roche had an up and down tournament even had a Rashid very good at points

didn't have a great tournament overall for England to be eight runs away from a world cup final

given all that I think that's a very very good effort but actually there's so many moments in

that game if they just flip England England go through even even towards the end will Jack's

amazingly caught on the boundary I think it's Axis Patel who does the first bit to keep the ball

inside the playing area Sam Curran actually that he was given quite a few full tosses that he couldn't

get away in eventually his court it was interesting watching that because they were against

Bumraar and actually the one that Curran got out to was a local toss against Bumraar and

and there was that sense that they were playing the man rather than the ball a little bit and I

think they were thinking we can take down 35 in two overs as long as it's being bold by Mawls

but they slightly erred too far I think actually if you look at it on paper now that local toss

to a 60-yard boundary Curran flips that for six in his sleep against anyone else but they were

playing here I think a little bit but you're right there were certain kind of hinge point moments

that said I never really felt in my gut that England were in that game you know

because I was intrigued because there is there is a narrative there is a world out there

but it felt still too implausible even when you looked at it on paper as a comparison and they

were technically in the game it still felt given everything against them the the world's best baller

and the world's best team and the world's best fans and the weight of history statistically

I always felt and never quite felt they were in it they would have been if Brooklyn caught

Samson you know I mean I think I said she last week he will never live that down before remembering

that he's already lived it down an hour after the game was finished and that's not a bad way to

cope with cricket yeah and in that finale I just couldn't believe when they kept showing the

comparison on screen that England was still ahead in the 18th over but that that's very

a mind that England's 90th over in the field went for 20 so there was that too but yeah there was

so so close but I think overall very good competition and moving forward I was impressed with

Brooks captaincy overall by the way I think they took too long to get him up to number three and

he actually acknowledged that that was McCullum who tapped him on the shoulder that morning so

perhaps in trying to be selfless and team first he missed a trick with his own position in the

team but I think on the pitch he was pretty good overall really and I think he deserves net credit

for having brought in Dawson who had a decent enough tournament and to identify one or two other

players that have come through so I think he's he's done himself no harm as a white ball captain

really since he's taken over the story is more complex than that as we know but I think he looks

okay in that role. Joli asks what do we think about the next T20 World Cup cycle for England what

do you think the team will look like when is the next one sorry it is October November 2028 so

even though it's a two-year cycle it's two and a half years till the next competition and that's

going to be in Australia New Zealand I suppose if you look at the oldest players in this current England

team Liam Dawson's in his mid-dirties Josh Butler's in his mid-dirties Adam Rashid will be in his

forties for that competition yeah I mean you wouldn't think any of those are going to be there

Ray and Armid looks like a pretty decent backup for Rashid's got to work on his leg breaks still

a lot of his stuff is googlies but also you know useful floating battles we saw on that win against

New Zealand that you know Jordan Cox is still going to come in some people think he he might have

been a better bet than Tom Banton in this World Cup I think he's probably fractionally more talented

than Banton who goes into open Butler won't be there will salt be there I mean where does this

tournament leave Phil salt one in he's against Sri Lanka and nothing else apart from that

but getting out very early and exposing the mid-lorda when I wrote earlier in the tournament that Butler

should drop down the order I reckon that Bethel could go in at the top because I think his game suits

any any conditions for RCB right well people when he did play in it yeah people are making the

argument oh he has to start against spin he's such a good player against spin this guy has a good

player against anyone and I'd have him in for as long as possible with Brooke at three think of the

damage that could that could do so I think in not badly placed they're a good T-20 team it's

their best format at the moment so frighteningly it's not the English public one but they're pretty

good at it yeah I was thinking about it I think that I agree I think Bethel will just be opening

for England by then they'll be thinking very soon I think he's got to face as many balls as

possible I would be surprised if Tom Banton is still in the mid-lorda I think he will either be

opening or not on the side at all then and then if you're low down the order I think you still

have current and jack so that's six seven axis and then numbers four and five are potentially up

for grabs then so who have you got Jordan Cox possibly James Cole's possibly a left-hander maybe

Ben Ducke it comes back into the equation by then I think more generally I was looking at the

leading run scored in the hundred who are left-handed in English they're not that many of the

really it's down Milan Ben Ducke guys that we know about Sam Karen obviously as well English people

who are not in the team there's basically no one but I think that's a big opportunity for someone

outside the setup but even then it's quite hard to work out who that is you look at the 19s you look

at the Lions there aren't many left-handers involved they've been they've tried to get down

Mosley and involved but he's not quite produced the returns that suggests that's a spot for him

in the near future I think for me more genuinely we've had this conversation in recent weeks that the

the issue for England in all formats is I don't see a group of fastballers coming through who

all format internationals I mean Josh Tongue is an interesting one he's not played at T20

I for England yeah or if he has his only paid one one or two I think yeah that that is a gap

for England in all in all cricket the moment yeah on reflection I think I would have been

tempted to play Luke within that semi-final for what it's worth I just think the only way you stop

in India get 250 is if they're 20 for two and then they might get 240 and he's a wicked taker

for five minutes with the new ball Tongue I love him as a bowler I'm not sure he doesn't have

much chops as a T20 bowler yet right but he had a good 100 he had a good 100 yeah indeed yeah

as did Sonny Baker I guess yeah so again one or two around the edges there were a couple of good

looking quicks in the under 19s team and if you are talking two and a half years down the line

then perhaps one or two of those become become a factor French and green look good and again

the batters as well right in that set up Ben Mays look like a fabulous young player and obviously

the Rue the younger is bang on to play to play all formats probably at some stage so it moves

quite quickly in 20 over cricket so who knows in two and a half yeah I mean two two years ago

the lot of the T20 woke up before this one was fewer than two years ago and Jacob Eiffel

had never played for England at that point so it does it does move very quickly I thought I thought

salt as you say had a chasening few weeks really and you kept getting out in the same way to

to little kind of nibblers and he's he loses his shape a little bit and and in watching him I've

always had that concern that if you play so so madly on the edges he does with his own way of doing

it then if the ball does move a little bit then you are you're in the lap of the gods

and while he has dominated certain attacks on certain flat ones where the ball doesn't deviate

and he's obviously on his day unbelievably lethal that 140 odd against South Africa the

hundreds he's made against West Indies there aren't too many England players that make regular T20

hundreds so he his approach of being ultra aggressive and then some is obviously dangerous but when

you play against top quality attacks and on pitches that are interesting such as they were in

set in Sri Lanka in particular and the balls swung appreciably in that game against India initially

you wonder if he has if this isn't sounded too kind of boomerish but you wonder if there is quite

enough technical foundations to halt to fall back on when things aren't quite a play or when the ball

is is talking a little bit and I think he'll have to go away from this one and and ask himself a few

of those questions and I and I wonder if England will be asking them as well. I mean you should see

how he goes in the IPI I'm a Phil salt fan I'm so aware of the IPI and he has done

his in the record is good and actually I think the thing that he's done over the last

pause say two two and a half years as even though his strike rate is still extremely high he has

shown more adaptability mid innings than he had done previously. That's a fair point. Yeah so I think

yeah poor tournament but then you'd also say like how different is it to the tournament Abhishek

Sharma right and part of the thing with these this style of T20 opener is they've got to be

empowered to have that approach at all times and actually what hindered salt to degree was

the guys beneath him and around him in the order weren't necessarily in the best form either so

his fall off in form was probably more pronounced but yeah I think it's a fair point that he kept

getting out of the state the same way which is never good. And I think as Phil says he's become

a flat wicket specialist and that is a slight problem he I know it's his style to go after it

from ball one. Sanju Samson doesn't do that by the way I mean the first four balls of the

World Cup final dot balls I know he had a crack I want to miss but he is not he is giving

himself a couple of balls to get in Jacob Bethel does it it's good enough for him I think salts

become a bit warned I mentioned it cost him his place in the ODI side yeah England decided he was

attacking as if from the first over as if it was a T20 game it turns out there's perhaps a bit more

nuance to T20 opening than salt is is allowing himself to show and with Butler out of form that

that was a massive problem for him that cost them in the end and if we are actually trying to round

it up for what it's worth for the over the course of the next 12 months I'd like to see Jamie Smith

open with Bethel and Smith to take the gloves in Butler's place presuming that Butler and we are

making a big leap here but presuming that Butler maybe says enough is enough now yeah I think we'll

see quite a few changes whenever England next pay T20 cricket I think I think even it's a

classically endorsing thing I think it's just going to move on for him because he's mid 30 even

though that he probably will be fine to do the same on a few years I think I imagine James Coles

would come in on your point around Rashid's successor interesting that line saw that Nathan Souter

was was finally rewarded Australian board play with a really interesting story we've had him on

the podcast before he's been the best England qualified wrist spinner Rashid aside in the 100

for a few years now apart that extremely successful over the principal side amazing field of two

I wouldn't be surprised if he plays a game for England in the next six months so yeah yeah and

just very briefly Ray and Armored have mentioned the dispatches somewhere along the line I think he's

a fascinating cricket I don't think England have used him anywhere near sensibly yet especially in

whiteball cricket and you talk about that sort of Falkram 67 current jacks well I think he slips in

there alongside or in in place of and I think he bats in there for a long time I think he's

I mean people who know him well say he's one of the most talented batsmen they've ever seen

and it's it's rare praise that he gets from people who watch him work with him and it's the

bowling that has been mistakenly put as his first skill it's not it's the other way around

and they see him as in the people in English cricket who know they see him as a battery bowls

and I think before too long he's in that middle order 20 over and in 50 over cricket I think he's

I think he's good enough yeah it's very enough I mean I don't think we were mugs for saying his

legs been was good he literally took a five on test debut when he was 18 for sure for sure but I'm

not saying that this is what I think this is what they tell me this is what people who have worked

with him at Leicestershire and at England say that's how they see him whether he sees that himself

is another question fascinating to see how he's going to go this year you know because he could

become a very very big part of English cricket and he's obviously batting in the first division now

we're batting three I think in first year yeah so watch him he's going to fly Alex asks what's your

reactions you key and McCollum staying do you think they'll make the right to changes to improve

so various media reports this week saying they are both set to stay in their respective roles

for the time being at least Lawrence what do you think well thinking on face a bit of a problem

which is that usually after an away ashes there's bloodletting and people get sacked now this time

they they thought we've done that too many times it hasn't worked we want to retain what one

administrator put to me as an institutional memory of how to play Australia so they don't want

to just chuck everything out when it goes wrong I respect that the issue with McCollum and key

was that they admitted halfway through the ashes they hadn't prepared the players properly

and I'm not saying that was their own new job but it was a pretty big part of the job and it's

quite an admission and a lot of things went wrong that you could you could trace back to that

now McCollum at the end of the ashes said that if I can't do things my way maybe someone

someone better and that that to me was a was a warning sign because diluted bars is of no

use to England and I wrote a piece after that for the male saying that for that reason

I think he should go as test coach there was another issue which was his relationship with Ben

Stokes and it was pretty clear from about the end of the second test onwards that they were going

in slightly different directions in the ashes Stokes was talking about Australia being no

place for weak men finding Irina dog he blocked in Brisbane he blocked on the second day

Adelaide which was a bad move Pat Cummins himself came out and said thank goodness England shut

shop it was 40 degrees as a flat pitch that was the game Australia were worried about on that

flat pitch the England's top six were going to basketball them McCollum meanwhile have been

saying ahead of that test that no no we're not we're not chucking everything out we've worked

for three and a half years to get here so for the first time in all in the basketball era

they were going in different directions now can that be rectified McCollum alluded to it the

other day after the they were knocked out by engines from the World Cup so we got to have a good

think about the style of cricket we want to play and I think reading between the lines that

was very much a the captain and I need to get back heading in the same direction McCollum's

formed a great relationship so far with Harry Brook certainly in the T20 side 16 wins out of 19

he's got to reconnect with Stokes was if he doesn't that's a problem for England they're leaving

themselves then after this summer with only I think six or seven more tests before the next ashes

so they haven't got much time to get it right I thought now is the time to move on but I can see

why they've stopped the column but it is a gamble because if it goes wrong again just

imagine the criticism yeah I mean the preparation clearly was a massive issue Phil and they

acknowledged that they got that wrong themselves but I have found it interesting looking at the T20

setup and just just see they made some really big calls that paid off Will Jack's coming in from

nowhere really to be their man at seven Liam Dawson coming back from years in the international

wilderness and also just in the discussion that we had now there are actually quite a few examples

of them being uh what's the right word maybe not brutal but pretty firm and dropping players

quite quickly so Jamie Smith for example they've clearly changed their mind on where Jamie Smith

is right now in white book cricket before that they made a decision about Phil Solt as an ODI opener

and you kind of look at it they're much much more stubborn around the test side and we're

slow to move and and looking at the two you like oh it's it's maybe not McCollum then it's

it's a potentially a Stokes thing and that's a quite a hard thing for them to get right when they

don't actually pay loads of games in the next what eight to ten months. Stokes was the most

important person to retain from that test from the carve-up of the ashes for me I thought it was

essential that he persuaded himself to to get going for another year and a half up to the ashes

here next year and once it was evident and once he was clear that that was what he wanted to do

then I was more relaxed about the other situations um uh and I for what it's worth I wrote after

the ashes that it felt like it was an overreach to put random McCollum in charge of everything

considering just the like the the wear and tear the practicalities of being in charge of all of it

and how international cricket schedules now overlap literally at times and it seems to me um a

brazen decision and a hubristic decision to give him the keys to everything and there was logic to it

but I think in real terms you end up spreading him and the the coaching set up too thinly

and I think you end up getting not quite the perfect job in any of the in any of the format as a

consequence but even though it sounds a bit back to front I I after the ashes thought it was time

to shake hands on him as the coach for the test team but I was very happy to see him carry on with

the white ball team and even though it's a bit he will be pickily because he was brought in

specifically to deal with a like a listing test team and notably came in and said well

I like the challenge of taking a team that's lost its way and injecting something new into it

I didn't you said it you know again with a smile I didn't need to worry about the white ball

team frequently because they were winning well well tournament was anyway well that's now shifted

around but that's coincided with the test team um yeah just drifting plateauing at best and

regressing really realistically over the last 12 to 18 months uh Stokes still this is still

Stokes is set up more than I think people recognise I think it's partly the word like if it was

Stokes ball it would be a different story I've always I've always bought something idea that this

is this is McCullum's world and that everyone else fits into it if you have a test match captain

and you have a personality as big as Ben Stokes then this is ultimately your team and I think the

the the like there's a kind of a a tear in their relationship a little bit and I think you're

right to identify it's what we've heard a little bit I'm not talking about their log ahead to

tall but there is yeah there is a sort of philosophical difference of a difference of opinion you know

so quick question if it is Stokes's team why then would it make sense to remove the guy who has

less to do with the team if that makes sense but because preparation aside there were lots of things

they didn't get right in the ashes uh the spinner situation was garbled um the Pope battle thing

there's a two massive decisions that probably didn't costing them the ashes but they got wrong and

it feels as time has passed that those were more Stokes calls and they were McCullum what why

is it so important that that Stokes is essential to the yeah essential to the test team for the next

18 months well just in a line and then Lawrence can take over I think a new kind of intellectual

inquiry into that team uh a challenging discussion to be had with somebody who sees the game in

similar ways but slightly differently from from the outside but who crucially has the personality

and the self belief to face to look Stokes in the eye and say right how are we gonna how are we

gonna go win the ashes in a year and a half I think the ideas of McCullum fresh and good as they

were at the time have started to curdle and I think it is not a case of overthrowing a culture

but refining it with some new ideas and I think um now would be the time to do that with the

testing yeah I mean the answer to your question I suppose is that Stokes as a guy leads him out on

the field and he he will be there barring some you know injury breakdown or catastrophic loss of

form but he's he's looking like one of being the best bowlers at the moment isn't it even if he

probably isn't worth his place at number six I mean I wrote last year that I just swapped him in

Smith round at six or seven but Smith's form with the bat sort of scuppered that in Australia I think

I think the issue is that and Phil alluded to it there that my my feeling is that McCullum has

almost taken the test team as far as he can go there's no sign of players improving necessarily

under him in fact some some of them went backwards duck it went backwards in Australia

Crawley has never made the next step up really and let's face it England hung on to Crawley on the

promise that he would score heavily against India and Australia which he didn't really do yet

yeah one or two innings so the question is can McCullum make this team better um and I think Stokes

the part the reason for his sort of slightly odd outburst after the Brisbane test was because he

it sort of suddenly dawned on him that England weren't making the same mistakes again and again

and why was that no he England have to refine things slightly they always talk about absorbing

pressure as well as applying it and Stokes has said until he's blew in the face at their better

at the that the second bit than they are at the first and in Australia they partly lost because

they did the first so poorly in the first two tests so if they can if they can refine that if Harry

Brooke stops charging his first ball if Harry Brooke gives himself a chance take his take his name

out your mouth or so don't don't pile in on him he's fine no no I'm I'm a huge fan of Harry Brooke

but he but he averaged 39 in Australia when he could have averaged 59 so he that was one of the

reasons England lost out there so there are refinements that can be made and the question is is

McCullum the man to preside over them I agree with everything you both said I just think that

Stokes is in a fascinating position going into this year in that if you look at his numbers over

the last few years he's a he's a bowling round he's been at times England's best bowler

he's batting his full enough he averages 28 with 100 in his last 23 test go back the start of 2024

and in June he'll be 35 and he's injury pro I think will be interesting to see

just what cricket he plays he basically only plays cricket for the England testing he this

goes back now for well over a year he doesn't play county cricket doesn't play any form of white

ball cricket at the moment and I think it would just be interesting to see and we'll very very

quickly and people will get annoyed I'll get annoyed at how much we'll talk about the ashes

but that is going to be on the horizon very very soon and there will be a question about having

about Stokes's suitability as an injury prone bowling around who's batting returns haven't been

great with a lot of years sure but even if he ends up as a slightly sort of creaky

really executive really like figure right who's batting is now limited and who's obviously

brilliant in bubble you know what I mean who's who's bowling is in frequent due to the due to his

body even given all of that the presence of him in what will be the 12th and final round of one of the

great heavyweight careers surely you want him in there anyway one leg black knight style right

you know one arm left and the other one's hanging off by a thread but you still want him in there

and the sense you get and I spoke to um director of cricket markers north right up at Durham

and he spent a day with with Stokes last month and he said like you see in his eyes you can see

you know he's he's already thinking about this year and then obviously what's to come and if he is

completely dedicated it dedicated to it psychologically then I'll I'll put up with a plethora of

problems with the body just to just to get him to just see it off to to at least give himself

a punches chance of completing this this incredible career with with the thing that he's he's desperate for

I I agree I the only thing the only thing I say is if the start of this summer follows recent patterns

with Stokes from a playing point of view where his batting isn't quite what it was but his

bowling is that as good as it is I would just lead into it genuinely just bat and eight and

and have a spin bowling option at six yeah there are enough of them well when you were saying it again

like my my Ray and Armada was just going going going hard again but there is a world in which

you have those three all rounders the keeper whoever that may be assuming Smith

Stokes and and Ray and Armada in there is a six seven eight and you work out the right order for

those and then you still have the space for three out and out bowlers and and Bethel's tweakers of

course a bit fun to finish before we get to the magazine section Phil did you know that when we

were watching sorry versus summer set in September 2024 we were watching someone who was going to

create history in front of our eyes was this when we were watching it together we were watching it

together in South London in South London do you have any idea what I'm talking about Archie Vaughan

got 70 odd did he look off you no 30 odd Brett Randall who played two games that's where I need

the name from Brett Randall who played two games for summer set in 2024 has taken five wickets in

five balls for central districts in the pumpkin shield over the weekend the first time anyone has

ever done that in first-class cricket and Phil we watched him take none for 35 right thank you

for this because I saw his name pop up the other day I thought I know that name then I thought

with all due respect I'm not all over the blanket so that's what it was right so we saw him yeah

we're seeking out the highlights that the hatchet ball given out all behind thought poor fellas

nowhere near it but six in eight yeah six in eight I like that you've already thrown shade on it though

and Phil there is a new magazine out you've got it in front of you what is in it

well it's all about the front cover really it's all about the front cover story the 50 best

uncapped players in English cricket and we asked a panel of lots of people but rather

cutely at around even 50 people came back so it's 50 people's opinions on the best uncapped players

and we rounded it up to 50 I asked people to give us their top tens and then a handful of extras

who they have a particular fondness for and we round up all the results and there you have it so

the reason why we did it is pretty obvious after that chasening winter and after failing to be

India at home and all the rest of it we thought now's the time a few weeks out from the start of the

season the English season to if you'd like have an audit of those players who have not been

capped by England they have some of them have been capped in white ball cricket but this is

specifically in red ball cricket and we've graded and marked them on their chances as we see it

of getting a test cat between now and the ashes in a year and a half and you know there's a

few there's a handful of the usual suspects that you would imagine in that top 10 there's a few

aging hero stalwarts in there as well there's a few cult hero like players there's a few who

don't have much red ball record but who one feels could cross onto Broadway you know and so it's

an interesting snapshot of the English games it's there was there any was compiling the list was

there a player or players who's I suppose the regard that people have for them was higher than

new thought or you didn't hadn't realised there was so much anticipation around yeah was then

was there enabled to you like oh this person wasn't quite on my radar book clearly lots of

people yeah there were and and also obviously this is subjective it goes without saying it's a panel

of 50 people and there's going to be some things in there that you're going to ballcat some things

that you're going to think oh they've got that just about right I'm no different to the average

pun to the picks up that magazine right so I've got my own preconceptions I've got my own biases

I've got my own bigger trees I've got my blind spots I've got my players I don't rate despite

the bodies of evidence and I've got my players I rate despite the absence of them right so I'm

no different to anyone else um I didn't do any stats here for sure but there were there were

certain people that I chose not to write about in favour of writing about others and that was

you can make your own conclusions but we've interviewed a number of the people in the top 10 as well

the Jamie Porter interview I think is already a pillar of podcasts that you did for us that

he features in the top 10 um as in fact the highest ranking seamer in it which is telling I think

in itself there are certain trends that you can extrapolate from this list and I write about that

in the intro you know the dearth of front line spinners the dearth of quicks but then there was

also there's a kicker that if we did this two years down the line I think there would be a different

look if you look at the players coming through a teenage level in English cricket that will then

be a part of this story in 2028 say I think it will shift a little bit but just at the moment

the cupboard especially in terms of fastballing is bare and it shows up in this list um so yeah people

can make what make their own conclusions based on it and again do write in and let us know what

you think and I'm sure people will don't let's have a good ding dong on the back in nothing nothing

exercises as quite like talking about England players on the periphery um what else is in the

magazine I can't remember no sure um well Lawrence is in it of course um with his tin hat on talking

about in your in Pakistan Daniel Gallen's done a lovely piece actually on Aiden Markham um

interviewed Markham who's basically on the verge I'd say it'd be in one of the best players in the

world now um Archie Kaliana went out to Mumbai and spent a week with the Mumbai Indians

women's team um for the WCMSA uh Katchia Whitney is asking the question where the female batters have

gone um in uh in English cricket there's a as an absence of young players really coming through

that you think definitely you're going to turn into um top-class world-class players uh I've

done a thing on Nasseru Sain I've never written about Nasser before so I've done that um yeah so

there you go all the fun of the fair as they like have you um have you been tempted to type into

chat gbt produce a one thousand word article in the style of Phil Walker on Nasseru Sain and see

what the end product my mate typed in this was heartbreaking he typed in the other day um right

a cricket poem in the style of wisdom's Phil Walker um and he said it to me it was it was awful um

obviously but he also typed in something else like describing or something and they said uh he

often invokes um like nihilistic philosophy to describe what it's like to be an England cricket

and references nature because I've put something on mutual or something in a in an article so

so yeah it presents me in a rather rather apocalyptic light but then you know

flavor of the times right and a couple of offers for listeners too yes a couple of offers yes uh

so subscribe to wcm digital magazine um for 20 no correction 14 quid for the year saving over

40 percent on the normal price you get all the issues across the course of the year and it lands

in your pocket mags app easy to download it will alert you whenever a new magazine comes through and

it's 14 quid across the whole of the year um the offer ends on May the first so do get cracking on

that we will put the link in the show notes and for the print magazine so you can feel it in your hands

uh you can subscribe to that for just 39 99 so round that up 40 quid for the year um in the UK

uh and subscribing saves you 50 percent on the cost of the magazine as opposed to buying it of

course in the shops but if you just want to buy the odd one then then then they are there of course

you can buy them as individual issues um again links in show notes please do do it it keeps us in

in uh in bread and water um Lauren says various other gigs i don't worry too much about him but

do do look after do look after us if you possibly can um and go and get it here is the new one

do what Phil said uh that is everything for today's show cheers Lauren cheers Phil will be back

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