India: Lack of Civic Sense

Okay, let's have Mr. Ray Phan as I speak. Mr. Phan, go ahead, please. Okay, he disconnected.

Yeah, Mr. Phan, go ahead. Yeah, sorry about that. I was just unmuted.

Thanks for giving me the chance, Jayant. I think I've been in two of your spaces and you've

given me a chance to speak. So I really appreciate it. So given the title of this face,

Indian lack of civic sense, I've been thinking about this and I was speaking with a friend about

this and I think we both came to the answer behind this question and I think the problem is that

the majority of Indians and people in the subcontinent just live very like repressed lives and

they're not capable of like mustering the courage to stand up for themselves. So a lot of this

like disrespectful and like rowdy behavior in public and sometimes even in private is it's

almost like a form of rebellion for them like just to let out all of their like oppression and

repression and feelings of like shame and guilt. But I think you would probably know better than

me Jayant because you were born and raised in India and I and like probably other people in the

space were born and raised in the West. So like we're kind of speaking more from like an observation.

Yeah, so Mr. Ray Phan, my view is different here. Can you mute yourself when I speak?

My view is quite different here. I don't think it is repression that is causing them to behave

the way they do. In fact, I think if you remove repression, they actually become worse.

So if you see that as the society has liberalized culturally itself over the last two or three

decades, the noise, the corruption, the pollution has actually increased in that country.

As India has become sexually more liberated, it has just led to a social chaos where families

have broken up. People of couples, divorces have shot through the roof. So nothing is working out

in that society. And I think for a person like you who has grown up in the West, you might think

that repression is the cause of problems of the country because you are looking at India

through the lens of the Western view. Whereas the reality is that the more repression you remove

from that country, the worse it is becoming. So that's how I look at you, Mr. Ray Phan,

it's on there. Yeah, that's a very interesting viewpoint. I wasn't even thinking from that

perspective. The reason why I'm still a bit, I suppose, confused is because I've actually

visited other developing nations where the average IQ is not very, it's kind of on par with what

you would see in the subcontinent. And of course, all of these developing nations have the same issues,

public noise, lack of public hygiene corruption. But I've noticed that it's more so than any other

nationality. It's very specifically Indians, especially on social media, you'll notice how they

behave. Like they're always lashing out and just behaving like very like foul and what's the word

I'm looking for? Like just in very craven and like disrespectful ways. So the reason why I was saying

it was the repression is because I haven't seen this this type of behavior from any other nationality,

even like other third world nations. Like I have friends from Sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America,

Southeast Asia. They all seem to be like more civilized than people from India. So even Sri Lanka

seems to be like the people seem to be more reasonable better. So yeah, but that's all I have to say.

Thank you, John. Well, yeah. So, so, Miss Fred, fun. My view is that repression evolved in that

country for a reason. And it was an evolution to keep the society in check. And from what I have

seen, and I actually did believe a couple of decades back that if you open up the society, people

would mature and become more civilized. The exact opposite is what has happened, which to me

means that these people, because they cannot handle their own freedoms, they will through their

actions require an institutional body to repress them to control their bad behavior. And you can

also, Mr. Irfan, see that among the third world communities in the West, which is an easy thing

to understand. What happens in the third world communities? Let's say the Brampton, the

Suris, the Birmingham, the Lester in the UK, you look at those ghettos and you realize that

despite the fact that those ghettos get a huge amount of legal freedom compared to what exists

in India, people in those communities actually become more crime prone. And I'm not just talking

about Hindus, I'm talking about Sikhs, I'm talking about Muslims, certainly Muslims in the United

Kingdom, I'm talking about Sikhs in Canada, and I'm talking about Hindus in the US, they all degenerate

in an ecology of liberty. Now, I'm a libertarian, I want liberty for myself, but what I'm saying is

that these people, because of their character, because of their IQ, require an external policing,

which naturally evolves around them to keep them in check. So, that's how I look at things,

I wonder if anyone else has any thoughts on that. Mr. Huen, you are still not able to connect,

I guess. So, all right, does anyone have any thoughts on this subject?

Yeah, since no one is speaking, I think I should just try and kill some time here,

but if you don't mind, Jayant, but uh...

Yeah, go ahead, Mr. Huen, there's no need to kill time, if you have something relevant to say,

and I think you raised a very important point earlier, something that I struggled with in the past,

but I really realized that I have come to believe in what is called Chester 10 Fence, which is that

before we remove certain fences, we should understand why those fences came in the first place.

Maybe they evolved for a certain reasons, and what might look bad from Western eyes

might not be as bad for the people where those fences exist, because we are,

you know, as you rightly mentioned, the IQs are different, culturally as a result,

people are very different, so they require different kind of fences. Some people need no fences,

as you see in the United Kingdom or Canada, in between houses, you see no fences,

whereas in India, you not only see fences, you see concrete walls separating different houses,

and this is a natural evolution because of the kind of characters that these people have,

and those fences in India are required if I bought a property in India,

the first thing I would do as everyone else does is to erect concrete walls around my property,

because if I don't, someone will come and occupy my property or move the border of the property

towards my site to occupy my land. So it is because of the character of the people,

different things, societies behave differently. In the Western society, people are

let alone to live life their way, and they mostly behave, whereas unless people from the third world

are controlled through external devices, they go feral. Mr. Iphone?

Yeah, that's very interesting. I suppose you are right that different populations have evolved

to have different sociological traits because of the IQ, the environment, the religious customs,

but yeah, so just two quick questions. First of all, I'm very curious, do you have any,

a recommendation for any particular books that helped you understand the psychology of people

in India and the third world? And the second question is, I've noticed the strange thing that even,

because I have friends and lots of acquaintances from people who are of different third world

backgrounds. I mean, we are too in this space. I think many of us are of Indian or South Asian

background, but I've noticed that Indians more so than any other group are the most willing to allow

themselves to be tyrannized. The like the stereotype that people have now is that like Indians are

like dishonest and like scamming and immoral, which is definitely true, like in many cases,

but I've noticed like even the opposite, like a lot of these Indians are, they're willing to

allow themselves to be stolen from. They're willing to allow things to be expropriated away from

them, and they don't, they don't do anything to stop it, like, which is very surprising, because

you would expect, from a purely self-serving evolutionary perspective, you would expect people to

fight to protect what is theirs, even if they are like low IQ, like you, you see this with like

a lot of African and Latin American populations, they are willing to fight for what's theirs, and,

but I've noticed the exact opposite within Indians, and I think that this, this might actually be

an even bigger problem than the low IQ, like the the strange like survival psychology, and yeah,

you would probably know more about it giant, because like you grew up there, so just do you have any

thoughts on that? Yeah, Mr. Irfan, I, you know, I completely agree with you. These are truly the most

survival people I have come across, and I've been to close to a hundred countries. I have lived in

many countries, but Indians are particularly, so it's very specially survival, they are sheepish,

they are creepy, as a result, and they never, ever fight back. That is why it is so easy to

enslave these people, and I completely agree with you that, people of similar IQs,

elsewhere in the world, at least fight back after a while, but Indians simply don't fight back.

In fact, what I find fascinating in a very negative way is that if someone wants to help them

be free, they actually consider that person to be the enemy. This is what happened when

Western people wanted to bring liberty to Indians. I think a lot of people who oppose the Western

Britishers were not because they wanted political freedom, but because Western leaders were

enabling social liberalization. So I completely agree with you that Indians are very special

in terms of accepting tyranny, accepting sheepishness, and as a result being very creepy,

because they are so spineless in so many ways that they are creepy as a result.

Now, when I look at what's happening in Iran, for example, now I move or oscillate between

favoring Trump or less favoring Trump less. I'm of course on the side of Trump more than I'm on the

side of the regime in Iran, but what I see that fascinates me is that tens of thousands of Iranians

chose to die on the street to oppose the tyranny that they think they face under their regime.

Nothing has like that has ever happened in India, which means that there's always a hope from

from Iranians. I think when Iran emerges, it will become a much much much better country than it is,

but because the ingredients in India are such that these people are sheepish, they're spineless,

they're creepy, they let themselves be tyrannized by anyone, means that there's actually no future,

they are like the might, they know there's no structure, they can ever build around themselves.

Mr. Hifan? Yeah, you're absolutely right, Cheyenta. Yeah, just the I asked a quick question before,

but you can just give a quick answer if you have one, but is there like a specific book that you

would recommend that help you understand the psychology of their worlders more?

Mr. Hifan, there is none. I think the problem is that the world is very politically correct,

they are not many books that look into this problems and look at these problems fairly.

You might be able to discover something similar in the books that the Britishers or other

Europeans might have written during the 19th century, because those people were not politically

correct, they saw through this, they did not believe that Indians and Africans were the same people

as Europeans were, they realized that these were lower societies and they understood it properly.

But Mr. Hifan, my understanding of the third world comes from my traveling in the third world.

I have traveled a lot in South America, I have traveled a lot in South Saharan Africa,

on my own, including backpacking, and I have traveled a lot in Southeast Asia. Again,

as a backpacker in Myanmar, Laos, so I have repeatedly done traveling in these countries,

and I have almost devoted my life to reflecting on my experiences and what happens to these people

when they have moved to the West, and what I realized was that they actually become worse once

they have moved to the West. For example, gypsies, gypsies in East Europe came from India,

and I would not be totally erroneous if on a like-to-like basis, if someone concluded that gypsies

were in Europe were more crime prone than what these people were when they left India.

So I think that is the situation with the country, and I think what is upstream is the IQ,

and IQ decides your culture, your religion, or expression of your religion, because

religions get corrupted, the best of the beliefs will get corrupted among the low IQ people.

In fact, they will get pervoted, and that is what I see. Let's say with Christianity in the

Caribbean, it is a very pervote religion in the Caribbean. In fact, Christianity is a very

pervote religion in South Saharan Africa, and I might say it is pervoted in Latin America as well.

So everything good will get pervoted, so you better not give them what is good.

If you think they cannot absorb that goodness, because if they cannot absorb that goodness,

they will actually pervote it. So let's have Mr. Wayne give his thoughts, and then we will continue

the discussion. Amit Wayne, go ahead, please. Yeah, am I audible? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, hello,

Janet. Hello, everyone, and it's nice to be a guest here, and thank you, Janet, for inviting me

on the space discussion. So yeah, you were talking about a pervasion of Christianity, so I have lived

in for my studies in South India, and had a few Christian friends there, and I was very shocked to

know that even in Christianity, the caste system of Hinduism has infiltrated, and they have cast

in Christianity in South India. So I will be talking about a lack of civic sense, and I will be

using some links, photos, and few videos, which I will post on the chat, and you guys can look at it

for properly getting engaged in the discussion. So yeah, in the start, I will be a little bit

technical. So lack of civic sense in India and among Indians is basically a result of lack of

empathy, because they can't feel the pain of other individuals. They have this lack of civic sense,

and going technical, they are five to six regions, specifically in the front part of the brain,

like interior singulate cortex, and medial prefrontal cortex, which I have pasted the image of

on the chat, and these regions have to be properly developed in the brain region to have proper

amount of empathy. So for development of these regions in the brain, good nutrition in diet is

very, very important, specifically during the first thousand days after birth, and during the

pregnancy period for the child. And if some of these nutrient molecules are calling vitamin D,

omega-3's iodine, which are mostly found in seafood, fish, and eggs, and others are iron,

B vitamins, folate, which are mostly found in red meat and meat. And if these nutrient molecules,

nutrition molecules, in the first thousand days, and during the pregnancy period are well fed and

available to the growing child, then rapid brain growth occurs. And these structures, which are

also called social brain structures, are well formed, and the measurable gains in emotional

recognition and pro-social behavior are absorbed in the human being when they are fully developed,

and grown into an adult. So during the early childhood and during pregnancy, nutrition plays a

very important role in development of empathy. And I have pasted a research link, which you guys can

look at later if you want to, for the proof of first thousand days nutrition claim. And in India,

the majority culture is Hinduism. And this Hinduism culture is mostly about being vegetarian,

or low meat diet consumption. Even if the meat consumption is there, then it's like,

oh, today is Wednesday, today this God is, so today no meat consumption. So the daily meat

consumption is also not there, even if they consume meat. And this leads to lack of these

essential nutrition in the brain during the childhood phase. And this results in lack of empathy.

And thus this technical form is there, which I'm trying to explain is the reason behind the lack

of civic sense is more in most Indian. So this is the site reason behind the lack of civic sense

in most Indians. And I have lived both in North Indian states like Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Gujarat,

and I've also lived in the coastal parts of southern India like Mumbai and for my studies in

Manipali. And I've experienced much more empathetic behavior, pro-social behavior in the coastal

parts of South India. That could be probably due to high intake of seafood among the coastal

regions and relatively high meat consumption in South India. Even in the Hindu community,

the meat consumption is much more higher than in North India. And I've also seen videos

from individuals from Japan and other Caucasian countries, the white people. They're confirming the

belief that the South Indian people are more warm and have much more civic sense in the North

Indians. And probably the diet plays a very good role. So this is my first part. And if anyone has

question or comments on it, please go ahead. Well, Mr. Huen, I was actually thinking while you

were speaking that maybe what Mr. Irfan was saying that Indians are more sheepish and more creepy

and more easily tyrannized compared to other societies of similar IQ. And I was thinking that maybe

Indians are the way they are because they have such a terrible diet. They truly have the worst

diet in the world because they hardly consume any proteins. And when they do consume proteins,

they fried those proteins into pulp basically. So I wonder if the bad nutrition on top of low IQ

is what makes them so sheepish. But maybe we can continue discussing on that later once you

have finished yourself, Mr. Huen. So moving on, one part of civic sense is that you do not later in

the public. And in Christianity and Western Caucasian countries, it's said that cleanliness

is next to godliness. So if you're clean, you keep your surroundings clean, your next to godliness,

your god will be happy with you and will be close to you. But in Hinduism, in the Hinduism,

the main reason behind this lack of cleanliness and latering behavior in India is probably the

caste system in which the job of cleaning is assigned to lower caste and is considered the lowest

form of work. So how could you have cleanliness when you consider it being lowest form of a

gets like the Hinduism, they consider that if you keep your surrounding cleansed, then the

Satan will be around you. So that's very weird in Hinduism, Hindu culture. And even in this caste,

there are sub-casts. So I've taken these detailed information about sub-casts from AI, so they could

be wrong. And so if in the sub-cast, Walniki will do street sweeping and general cleaning, Chuhra

will do cleaning and sanitation work, and Bangi will do scavenging and waste removal. So even in the

caste, there are sub-casts and hierarchy. And this caste system is deeply ingrained in the subconscious

mind of Indians. And I would say, especially in the North Indian parts, and wherever Hindus

are in major, high majority, the social change, if it was occurring, has taught since BJP has come

in the power. So maybe during the Congress area, due to education, I grew up during the Congress

era. And the education, it was said that the caste system is bad and they explain why it is bad.

But now, what I've heard from social media and news is that BJP has changed the curriculum,

and they are promoting Hinduism as if everything about Hinduism is to be proud of, and nothing

is wrong with it. And maybe this is happening because Indians have deeply rooted inferiority

complex due to their history of being colonized, and Mughals also colonizing the Hindus. And

even now India is a super poor country, if you see it, by GDP per capita. So maybe because of

this inferiority complex, this thing sells, like Hindus are everything about Hindus to be proud of.

And it seems like during past few decades, the caste system mentality is just becoming stronger,

and slow changes have been done in a school curriculum to promote Hindu pride, and it will

continue to occur if BJP remains in power. And the lack of civic sense will always be the mark

of Indian identity. So I will be posting, wait a minute. Yeah, I don't worry about you can post

those things later. Mr. Huen, I download audio's of it and upload it on post podcast services.

So if you talk much about your posting, then it isn't going to be of use to people who listen

to the podcast. Yeah, it's just a 10 second video about.

Okay, you can, you can do it later, but let's not discontinue the conversation for that.

Yeah, the conversation is that in the video, you can see it later. It's about the folks,

the individuals around my colony that bring the garbage on the side of the road.

And I like took a video, like a 24 hour video, and what I saw was shocking. There was a very young

kid throwing a full house garbage. So even the next generation of Indians are not being taught

good civic sense. So there's no hope in India that civic sense will improve completely.

Maybe a few. So Mr. Huen, I think the cost system is so ingrained in the minds of Indians that

even if there is a trash pen right next to them and even if it's easier for them to throw

their garbage in the trash pen, they will still throw it outside the trash pen because they

consider it below themselves to throw their garbage in the trash pen. Now, what happens in their

minds is almost impossible for me to understand, but that is how ingrained the sense of superiority

and the cost system is among Indians. And I completely agree that the cost system has actually

the lust for power is what I would say has actually grown among Indians. At the same time,

it's not something that I would want to remove from the society. It's not something that I would

want to focus on because you have to look at the underpinnings of that society before you work on

the cost system. What I have experienced is that the biggest believers in the cost systems are

those from the lower cast. So the lower the lower you go among the lower cast, the more cost

conscious they are. Upper cost people, Brahmin gets a lot of blame. But at the same time,

you can actually see, or when you hear about any cost problems in the country, it is usually

fights between two lower cast people about who is higher in the packing order among the two.

So, but carry on Mr. Huen. Yeah, so just giving few examples of the repercussions of the

cost system mentality. Once I was in a hotel and the sweeper was cleaning the floor surface

and he was doing it with very angry face and he didn't do it properly and just wanted to do it

fast as he can because probably he has cost system mentality and he thinks cleaning is the lowest

form of job. So another example is one day I was talking with my family members and I was comparing

South India versus North India. And I was saying in the North Indian regions, even the indoors of

malls and the washroom of malls and shops are dirty and South India it's good but in North India

even malls and shops it's dirty and only in five and seven star hotels it's probably clean.

And one of my aunt says in India I'll say, Udhar to safai karni parthi hai. Five star hotel

metha safai karni parthi hai. So in she says that it's a compulsion to clean in five and seven star

hotels like it's a bad thing work of a lower cost so it's a much disrespectful work. So this mentality

cost system mentality is very poisonous mentality for a society to function properly.

So I agree that the cleaners don't do their job either. They hate what they do

but almost all Indians hate whatever they do. They you make them an assistant manager. They

don't want to do their job properly. They prefer to be manager. You promote them to be a manager

and then they hate their job and they want to be senior managers. You promote them to vice

president and then they still hate their job and they want to do they want to be promoted again.

So irrespective of where you go in the Indian hierarchy no one seems to like his worker they all

think that their job is to pass orders to someone below them and in fact if you see among the

cleaners they are contract cleaners as well hired by the municipal corporation. So what the

cleaners who have permanent jobs do is that they pass on their orders to contract workers to do

because they now by this time consider it beneath them to clean themselves and in fact they want

to pass the orders down to contract workers. So I really don't see anyone in the country enjoying

what he has the responsibility for. Everyone it seems wants to give orders to other people to do

what he should be doing and the whole culture is is might is right culture in which everyone

wants to pass on orders to other people rather than do any work himself. Mr. Huyen.

Yeah, so you were talking about might is right right and that their work is the best and they

want just want to give the order. So this might is right psychology also comes into play why

Indians are very loud in the public's place especially when they are in a group. So

in my opinion and in my experience whenever Indians form a group they have discussion and Indians

they just have a lot of ego and they think that might is right. So the how this psychology comes

into play is to prove their point they speak very very loudly and they think that just saying their

point loudly means their point is right and sometimes it happens like multiple Indians

they speak their point and you just can't infer anything because they're speaking simultaneously

they don't speak one way one. So the concept of having thoughtful and constructive discussion

discussion is not there in among Indians especially when they get in large groups. So that is why

they are very loud in public's play public places. So that is the part of one part of

lack of civic sense among Indians. So should I continue? Am I audible? Yep, you're audible.

I think Jen may be topping on mute. Okay, so another part of civic sense is standing in a queue.

So which is which is complete radity in India. I've only seen that in good colleges among the

educated ones and so even if in India if you find someone following a queue it is because of

if there's a policeman a security guard which is carrying a stick also which is assigned to

maintain a queue and this is the only way to civilize Indians which is the fear of physical pain

as their bodies are weak and fragile as a result of poor nutrition. So as a giant was speaking

and this other speaker was speaking that Indians are very servile so yeah that's the only way

to civilize them is the fear of physical pain and even the you may say that oh no you can just

find them you can find them chalans but the chalan won't get work won't work properly as Indians

are very great and keen at hacking the system for example so in my city now they are CCTV cameras

a few CCTV cameras and one of my family member has three to four chalans for speeding and after

they got to know that they got this chalan from CCTV camera they started giving excuses that

when the roads are good the speed of the car automatically increases and I need to make sure

CCTV cameras are installed and this family member is a professor in a college so even the

educated ones they try to hack the system