Inside the 11-1 Deadlock: Why the Lindsay Clancy Jury Failed

0:00Giving you the days headlines with the right context. It's the John Phillips Show. And very happy Wednesday to you at 1206 in the West. It's the John Phillips Show. Mr. Randy Wings in a very muggy Culver City. The entire Southern California region is muggy and disgusting and I hate it and I don't know why I ever came back from Santa Fe. Yeah, what the hell is the deal with this weather? I know we talked about it at the beginning of yesterday's show, but I cannot deal with this humidity at all. I started looking at what the weather's going to look like for this weekend. Maybe there's someplace cool. We can take the dogs. It's going to be 90% humidity in the valley. I'm like, what about Oxnard Ventura? 90% humidity in Oxnard Ventura. This El Niño is turning California into Florida, but California costs a hell of a lot more. No kidding. 800-222-5222 is telephone number 1-800-222-5222.

1:07I know that we normally focus on stories that have a California date line on this program because let's face it. There are a million and one different radio shows out there. There are very few California specific shows, so we know our niche and we pretty much stick with it. But I've got to admit, when I was following the details associated with the Lindsay Clancy trial, it gave me PTSD from my own experience as a juror on a trial here in California. Now, Johnny, before we get started for anybody who's not up to date, who the hell is Lindsay Clancy and what was she on trial for? So here's the Reader's Digest version. Lindsay Clancy was a Massachusetts mother of three who snapped and killed her three kids, I think, with some kind of exercise equipment. She claims it was temporary psychosis. That was the motivating factor.

2:08She had postpartum depression and she got a doctor's note. And if a girl boss has a doctor's note, I guess they can kill their kids. All of a sudden it sounds like we're watching date line. So anyway, so those are the basics for the trial. Heart killing the kids were not was not something that was in dispute. They acknowledged that she was the one that did it. Although apparently there were a bunch of conspiracy theorists on the internet who thought the husband did it. I don't know what that was about because she acknowledged to killing the kids. Well, we're in a point now where nobody believes anything at face value. That is correct. And so the jurors are now starting to talk. It was a deadlock jury with 11 wanting to acquit and one wanting to convict her. And as soon as I started seeing the interviews with the jurors, I could not stop watching them. I had to watch it over and over and over again because it reminded me so much of what I experienced on my jury duty service here in California.

3:14And after you've heard a number of them speak to the press, it has become clear as to what happened in that jury room. Which is you had three carons who wanted to acquit this woman and they were the dominant forces in that room. And their idea was if they went back there and just bulldozed everyone into thinking like them, they would get the outcome that they desired, which was a full acquittal. Let's listen to these jurors in their own words. Let's start with the three women who did a sit down with a local television station in Massachusetts talking about not just their experience on the jury, but their conflict with the one hold out your who wanted to convict for more on this. We got a NBC 10 in Boston. First tonight major, I think they have a bigger graphics budget than we have in LA.

4:16Well, they know this is getting picked up by all the true crime stuff elements in the aftermath of Lindsey Clancy's mistrial for the first time her ex-husband Patrick Clancy is breaking his silence. Meanwhile, her attorney Kevin Raddington is calling on President Trump to grant her a pardon and tonight. Think that one's going to happen? Well, it's a state crime. It's not a federal crime. So I don't even know how a federal part would help her out. It wouldn't. Jurors are exclusively speaking to our team here at NBC Tim Boston revealing what exactly happened inside that jury room and the one juror who wouldn't give in. We read him on numerous occasions the definition of a reasonable doubt. She sober. She can't pronounce it. And it's not a one time thing. She said that over and over and over again and could not pronounce it correctly. Any of the time she said it. I'm not alleging anything here, but I was just out at a bunch of patios with a bunch of old ladies and Santa Fe and after one too many Margaritas.

5:21This is what they all sound like. Signed that jury room and the one juror who wouldn't give in. We read him on numerous occasions the definition of a reasonable doubt. Reason at all. Boy happy hour started early up there. Oh boy. From Jackson Sullivan's instruction. He actually said one day in the end. Why don't we have the judge coming and read it again and we were like no we have it in front of us. Now how does reasonable doubt apply when she confessed to killing the kids? Yeah, you see that's the thing I can't get over. It's a reasonable doubt that she was insane when she did it. I'm very confused. I think their position is after listening to these interviews over and over and over again. She got the doctor's note, so it's okay. Oh my. Thanks for staying up with us everyone.

6:21It is a big story, a big night here on NBC Boston. I'm Colton Bradford. Priscilla's got the night off. Our courtroom insider, Sue O'Connell spoke to those three jurors earlier today. She joins us in studio tonight with more on her conversation with them. Sue. I watched all of these jurors very closely for many weeks and I noticed they were taking notes on some things and other things were making them win. Some were making them cry and I wanted to know what they were reacting to. So it was interesting talking with three of them and getting a sense of what they were feeling and thinking during the trial. Three jurors. Get in with the three of them. Remind me of what's that movie, Hocus Pocus with Beth Middler. Oh, one of my favorites. Great for the Halloween season. Yeah. Oh, I see what you're doing there. Chef for senior center in Plymouth County. Which one's Sarah Jessica Parker that one? Yeah. Well, she kind of looks like Gary Busy there. Oh, boy. Connie, the four person and a former elementary school teacher and Paula who does work for a defense contractor.

7:26They became closer during this period. Friends for life, they say, but the jury bonded over murder. Can you imagine what that happy hour must be like? Oh, boy. Process wasn't easy. By the way, nowadays because there's so many people that are obsessed with true crime and they listen to those true crime podcasts and they watch all the shows on oxygen like snapped or she killed her husband because of this. What have you? Do you think when they're asking for a perspective jurors on these trials, they actually ask like, are you obsessed with murder? It depends what kind of case it is because the case that I served on was a child molestation case. And the only things they cared about was do you have children under the age of 12 at home and had you been molested? Outside of that, they didn't care what you had to say. My goodness. How did you react to the 911 call? How did I react to it?

8:26It's something that I will never not hear if I think about it. It was the most horrific thing. No doubt about that. Right. But I still wanted to get off because girl boss. It was horrible. I felt like being sick actually. They all had criticism for the prosecution. I just found it to be harsh. So very, very harsh. Can you please prosecute this woman that murdered her children in a lighter tone? How do you do that in a friendly way? My goodness. We're trying to figure out if she murdered the children she did. And she's admitting that. We're trying to figure out did she know right from wrong at that time? Oh boy. I couldn't. I couldn't. Imagine sitting around with these three having this conversation.

9:29For as long a period of time as they did. Can you imagine? I just want to burst into flames sitting here listening to them. And with everybody saying she loved her children so much and everything proved she loved. Her children from our journals to her mother-in-law. Everything proved that she loved her children. Oh, Jay loved his wife. You know, the great nor MacDonald had a joke that this reminds me of. Remember that joke, Randy? Oh, please tell it. Maybe we'll find it and we'll play it because I want to get the avert be exactly right. But nor MacDonald was spot on on this. I loved the fact that they just gloss over the fact that she killed her kids and they're talking about what a loving mother she was and he is and was proven to be. So this is who responds to the jury, did he notice?

10:29Huh? I'm in complete disbelief. She had to have snapped. Asked for the defense attorney Kevin Rudington. He was entertaining. So if you snap. You can kill your kids. I'm confused how this works. Generally speaking, that's how crime occurs. You see, people are usually not evil 24-7. Sometimes they go to sleep, sometimes they eat. Sometimes they're watching television. Usually they do the bad thing when they get really mad. Wouldn't you say after covering the crime blotter for a long period of time that's a fair assessment? That is usually what we see. Some people get pushed to their limit and then they do something crazy. But how does that excuse the crazy? Because we needed some of that. In arrogant at the same time. Yes. Like arrogant in entertaining.

11:30He would go back and forth between that. This is their going after the one juror who said, no, no, no, no, no, no, she killed her kids. I love the fact that they love the defense attorney because he was entertaining them with riddles. This isn't a cruise ship. Let me rewind this a bit. This is wild. I was wondering this morning why this is what you wanted to lead the show with. It is fascinating. He did some about it. In arrogant at the same time. Yes. Like arrogant in entertaining. He would go back and forth between that. Yeah. Yes. His compassion towards Lindsey was amazing. As to the jury deliberations, the women told me that things got tense, including some name calling. Okay. So this was part of it that I latched onto. Because one of the things that they don't tell you before you sit on a jury is what a knife fight that deliberation room is going to be.

12:35It is a fight from the moment that door closes to the moment you leave. And you better have a chive. Otherwise, you're going to be going to pull a blood yourself. The name calling, the screaming, the yelling, the crying, the demands for breaks. Within the course of two and a half days, I experienced all of that with some of the dumbest people. I have ever met before in my entire life. And you can't let yourself out of the room. You're stuck in that. It's a never ending hell that doesn't end until lunch. And then you have to go to Applebee's with these idiots. But they were also there for hugs and words and actions of support and self care. They say three jurors were persuaded to find the defendant not guilty by reason of insanity. But they say one juror, a man, would not budge.

13:35He was very arrogant. Now the insults are starting to fly here too. Oh boy. He really did not take anything that anybody said. The nurses, he tried to ask a question about the medications. And we went back to the report from social hospital. We had the toxicology report. We could see exactly the amounts. The nurses in the room spoke. So if you take too many goofballs and you kill your kids, it's the goofballs fault. And by the way, being a nurse just not make you an expert on any of this. They're not a pharmacist. They're not a medical doctor. They're not a chemist. They're a nurse. So the fact that they tried to brow beat this guy into voting a way that he knew was wrong. Because nurse Jackie told him I'm an expert on drugs because I take them myself.

14:36Is ridiculous. And that's not even allowed by the way. I don't have a law degree, but one of the things that they told us over and over and over again. Is you may have training in some of these subjects. You can't treat yourself as an expert back there. They have experts who testify. You can use their testimony because they get cross examined. But you can't declare yourself to be an expert back there and demand that everyone listen to you because you say you know more than they do. To that. And the process of the jury, there were nurses on the jury. Yes. They spoke to that specific thing. So forget what the witnesses had to say. I've got a little bit of medical training. This woman is not responsible for killing her kids. And I know that because I administer the flu shot. And he just completely disregarded the information that they gave him. I mean, he had reasonable doubt. He admitted he had reasonable doubt.

15:38I'm maybe I don't understand it. I have not paid that much attention to this trial. What is the reasonable doubt when she admitted to doing it? No, they're saying because she has a doctor's note that should get her off. They're saying that it was postpartum depression that gave her a temporary psychosis. And because of that temporary psychosis, she was under a spell. And that's when she did the bad thing. And now that the spell has passed, she's normal again. I don't think that's how it's supposed to work. You think? I mean, I'm responsible for the stupid things I say when I've had too many beers. It's not the beers fault. It's me. Yeah, I've tried that myself a few times. When you wake up in the morning and you text something really bad and you get confronted about it the next day and you go, I wasn't my fault. I was drunk.

16:39That is not an excuse for a 21 year old. And it's not an excuse for a 45 year old. It's that video of the interview. I think that's what it was. He admitted he had reasonable doubt. And I started filling out the forms. I was so excited. I actually so excited to get this woman off. This is wild. This is insane. And it looks like there's a few more minutes of this thing. So we're going to have to keep going with this when we come back, Johnny. I'm telling you, I couldn't take my eyes off it. I have probably watched this video. I'm not kidding. 15 times. I could not believe the words that were coming out of their mouth. So will you be watching the, what's definitely coming? The made for TV movie on lifetime? Yeah, but they need to, they need to cast Gary Bucy to play the role of this woman. More of this will we come back everybody. I guess he's texting. It's the John Phillips show eight hundred two two two five two two two two.

17:39I'm looking for that normal journal joke so I can send it to you. All right. He's doing a little research during the break. Eight hundred two two two five two two two two two. If you'd like to email the show, you can do so at Johnny Don't Like Show at gmail.com. That's Johnny Don't Like Show at gmail.com. And Randy, if you want to watch us live, go to JohnnyDon'tLike.com. That's where you can watch the show participating in the chat. We have a new interactive poll. How would you have voted on the jury? Currently 100% of respondents say guilty. All right, more coming up. If you'd like to watch us perform the show live, go to JohnnyDon'tLike.com and click that like button when you're there. And Randy, later today, the newest edition of the accountability podcast drops are weekly tribute to the most useless word in the English language accountability. Accountability accountability accountability. It premieres today at two fifty nine right after we sign off the air because technically we sign off the air at two fifty eight fifty. And it is a great interview with John Morgan, a Morgan and Morgan talking Gavin Newsom,

18:42talking working from home, talking Pelosi. It is a fantastic interview. You're going to love it at JohnnyDon'tLike.com at two fifty nine. And in the meantime, what do you say we make a couple of listeners very happy? Well, let's do that right now. 790K ABC welcomes weird Al Yankovic to the Honda Center on September 19th. Tickets are on sale now at ticketmaster.com, but right now call it number nine at one eight and eight seven ninety five two two two gets a pair of tickets to the show tickets furnished by live nation. Good luck. Diling. All right. Let's get back to these doozy jurors in the Clancy trial because if you think you've heard the craziest part so far, yeah, the answer is no. There's more coming. And I got to say we're doing some heavy research during the breaks. I thought you were thinking of a different normal Donald joke. The normal Donald joke that I thought you were talking about was this one. Thanks. I'm normal Donald. Now the fake news. Well, it is finally official murder is legal in the state of California.

19:47Norm clips are like fine wine. They seem to get better and better and better with age. So I'll look for the one that you were thinking about during the next break. All right. Let's get back to Gary bucy here. If once I had a fill out and I started filling them out, I wrote my signature on each one. And then he said, but I'm still not going to say that she's not guilty by reason of insanity. I mean, make sense. Yeah. All right. All right. Now the rest of this piece just seems like they're doing analysis for it. So there's more of those three women talking. Well, one part was she said and they were just about to get to it. The third juror said something along the lines of he just couldn't get past the part where she brutally murdered her three kids.

20:55And listed that as the character flaw that really caused the whole thing to go down. Oh, my. That was really it, huh? That was it. That's what she said. Now, let's go to the other clip of the fourth juror who spoke, who kind of let you know what happened inside that room. Do I have that? Yeah, I texted you the two that I wanted. When did you text me any of this earlier this morning? Oh, boy, didn't I? Oh, there we go. Okay. That one, the one that's on Twitter. Yeah. She didn't swear. Don't worry about it. All righty. So now I got to send this to myself because I've asked you a million times to email me clips that you won on the air, but you text them. So whatever. And now I have to figure out how to share this. And here we go. Share. And then I'm going to email it to myself.

21:57And then I'm going to send it to Randy Wang. And then I'm going to email it. It's going in the inbox. And then it's going to pop open. And then we're going to play it. And because it's Twitter and it's not YouTube, it's probably going to screw up my sound card, but we're going to try anyway. Share this tab instead. All right. This is the one that you just sent me. He was very arrogant. He really did not take anything that anybody said. The nurses, he tried to ask a question about. No, this is the one we just listened to, but what I was talking about the money quotes at the very end of this one. Okay. Once I had a fill out and I started feeling the mouth. I wrote my signature on each one. And then he said, but I'm still not going to say that she's not guilty by reason of incident. I'm not sure if rogue is the right word to. But every one of us in the hours of a frustration would get up and walk the room.

22:59Because you just couldn't say anymore. And would all go out of the cart with the exhibits. He, I think, got up to the cart once very briefly and went back to a seat. He would not. He would not interact with us and and try to understand we read to him on numerous occasions the definition of a reasonable doubt. We're back to that from Jeff Sullivan's instruction. He actually said one day in the end, well, why don't we have the judge come in and read it again? And we were like, no, we have it in front of us. We don't need that. And we would highlight it. And, you know, so and so, this is the definition of reason of doubt. But he had the hardest time getting off the fact that Lindsey viciously killed her children. It's just a nonstarter, huh?

24:06Okay. There are certain things that you say that make sense to you. And clearly these women were in some sort of click on this jury. And that statement made sense to all of them. But you really don't know how ridiculous it sounds until you say it in front of another population of people and you hear it. But that's what they felt. They thought this guy was totally unreasonable because he couldn't get beyond the fact that she brutally murdered her three kids. And their attitude was don't focus on that. She had a doctor's note. People in the chat want to hear it again. So let me share this tab again and let's hear it one more time. The definition of reason of doubt from Jackson Sullivan's instruction. He actually said one day in the end, well, why don't we have the judge come in and read it again?

25:07And we were like, no, we have it in front of us. We don't need that. And we would highlight it. You know, so and so this is the definition of reason of doubt. But he had the hardest time getting off the fact that Lindsey viciously killed her children. We are living in some interesting times, I'll tell you. And to them, he is a monster. He was a monster for not being able to get beyond that. Now, there was a fourth juror who spoke publicly. And we're not going to play the whole thing for you. But she's essentially a young girl who doesn't watch the news and has no politics and has no children and isn't married. So she got picked for the jury for all of those reasons. And what she said, and I 100% believe every word that she said,

26:09she went into that room believing that the woman did it and was going to vote to convict her. And then the three of them zeroed in on her and bullied her in the flipping her vote. Oh, boy, this was on CBS Boston. That person, the Jordan, the one who was trying to kind of swing up our stuff from the very beginning. So where did you come down from the very beginning? Like what was your vote? So originally I saw as though she was guilty and she was criminally responsible for it. And maybe I still believe that in a certain way. That person. Oh, my goodness. I think the lesson from today is don't throw away the jury summons because these are the people that get picked on these juries. So it just became a mean girls episode where they just zeroed in on every vote that wasn't with them one by one and just forced them to bend the knee.

27:21That's what happened because they cared more about the outcome of the trial than the other people did. And so they figured if they just called you enough names and they just verbally berated you enough and they just brandish their credentials. And by the way, being a fifth grade teacher and being a nurse does not make you an expert on any of this, but they acted like they were all experts. Maybe if you need an expert on duck duck goose, you can go to one of them. Not any of this. This is well beyond their pay grade. But as I watched this, it brought me back to the own my own jury experience because it was very similar to this. There was one of those women on the jury and they made it unbearable to be in that room. Because the attitude is their opinion isn't just their opinion. Their opinion is factually correct.

28:22And anyone who disagrees with that is a bad person who needs to be machine gunned. And we did come to a verdict in our jury. But we almost didn't. And it was as a result. And thankfully it was only one. I can only imagine what it must be like to have three of them in there. There was only one Karen on our jury. But she wouldn't let anyone talk. She was unbelievably insulting. She started the name calling immediately when the name calling didn't work. The tears started and you're making her cry. So you're a bad person for making her cry. And it was just every tactic of manipulation one after another was used until she got what she wanted. And again, you can't let yourself out of that room. You're stuck in there with them. It's that miserable. And as I look at this too, I see broader implications for our society.

29:26Because women like that, women like that, are overrepresented in so many aspects of life. As I watch this, I quickly became aware of why, for example, political polling doesn't work anymore. Political polling has been incorrect for some time now. Where the support for the Republican candidate usually is lower than whatever the outcome in the election is. That was the case with Trump and Kamala. That was the case with Trump and Biden. That was the case with Trump and Hillary. It gets repeated all the time. And people assume that the pollsters are biased and they're purposely trying to get a certain result. And maybe there is some of that in certain circumstances. But what you just saw in that video is part of the reason why the polling is skewed. Women like that always answer the phone.

30:28And they always stay on the phone with the pollster. And they always tell the pollster everything they think. Because what they think is very important and the rest of the world needs to know about it. Because they care a lot about it. And they are overrepresented because of it in political polls. So that's why one of the big reasons why the data is consistently flawed. The other thing I learned while watching this is why we should not do all vote by male elections. We just shouldn't. Because one of the things that happens when you have all vote by male elections. And you have someone like that in your house. Is that there's no secret ballot. There's no secret ballot. You have one of those women inside your house. That's your wife. That's your mother. That's your mother-in-law. That's someone who lives with you.

31:30And you are, let's say, an 18-year-old boy who was probably not going to vote. You think that woman is going to let you not vote? Oh! Exactly. You think that woman is going to let that ballot just sit on that kitchen table and not get filled out and turned in? No. That 18-year-old boy is going to vote and he's going to vote the correct way. Because she could watch him fill it out or she can fill it out for him. You think the husband is going to not fill it out or fill it out the wrong way? With her there watching him do it? No way. You think the elderly parents who are living with them in that house are going to fill it out the wrong way or not fill it out? No. Dominering people who care about politics punch above their weight when you have all vote by male elections. Because they could force everyone in their social network, everyone under that roof to do it the way that they want it done.

32:36And one of the questions that we constantly ask on this program is why is there no ticket splitting? Why is it that people who complain nonstop about the crime and the homelessness and all the problems that we deal with on a daily basis? Why are those complaints never reflected in the results of the election? And when you have all vote by male elections, part of it is because the domineering person gets five votes. Five votes, you say? She was trying to tell us something way back then. And I'll tell you something else that jumped out at me while watching these women. They were the enforcers during COVID. They were the ones that went after you when you didn't wear the mask. They were the ones that went after you if you went out to get your male or went out to take a phone call in your driveway. Remember that without wearing the mask.

33:39Did you have somebody stealing the fruit off of your trees and then they yelled at you for yelling at them because you didn't have a mask on? I had one of these carons on my property. I had a ton of fruit trees. And she was picking her morning grapefruit. And I was on a telephone call because I was talking to someone on the East Coast. And she didn't know I was there and I startled her as she was picking her fruit without my permission. And she immediately started laying into me for not wearing a mask. On your property. On my property in my front yard. And she did it with complete moral authority and zero irony. She's one of those women. But they were the enforcers during COVID. They were the ones. I'm a fifth grade teacher. I teach science. I know everything about science. Follow the science. You can't wake board in the middle of the ocean by yourself.

34:39You're going to kill grandma. That was the crowd. That was the crowd. Those women. And I know a lot of people blame Donald Trump for the toxic culture that we have with politics because he uses rough language and insults people of the tweets and all that. But very few people meet the president. Very few people come across a famous person, a politician, whatever. These people are the most toxic people in our society because they're in every family in the country. These are the ones that make your Thanksgiving some bearable. These are the ones that make you have falling outs with people you would otherwise like to have a good relationship with. These are the people who get on next door and won't shut up. These are the people who get elected to your HOA. These are the people who feel that they are smart and you are dumb.

35:40And they have a master's degree in education. So that makes them the answer woman. And it's sad because these are probably all grandmothers at this point. And in the old days, the grandmaws were the ones with the wisdom. They were the smart ones. And that generation has died off and now it's the drugged out hippies who were now the matrons, the grandmaws. And this is the warped way they see the world. They're toxic, toxic people. So thank God for that one hold out. Thank God for that guy who was willing to put up with these witches for as long as he did and didn't do something that would get him kicked off the jury. I don't know if I could have held my tongue with these three. I really don't. It would have gotten so ugly if I was in that room. But I guess we got the best outcome we could hope for given the makeup of that jury.

36:42But if they retried this woman, no more nurses, no more teachers on that jury. Stay far away from both of them. And Randy, I think you found the normal Donald joke. Well, yes, I did. Now, do you think Cosby's legacy will be heard? Yeah. I mean, there was a comedian Pat Naswell, he told me I think the worst part of the Cosby thing was the hypocrisy. And I disagreed. You disagreed with that? Yeah. I thought it was the raping. I'll tell you right now, the absolute best use of YouTube of everything that's on there. And I put it above our show and everything else is looking up Norm McDonald clips. That is the best use of your time every single day on YouTube. All right. We've got two more hours coming up on the John Phillips show. If you want to watch us perform the show live, go to johnny.don't like that.com and click that like button.

37:46The fixed California hours next. Don't you go anywhere.