Inside the world of a Grammy-nominated hit songwriter

0:00The Mario Rose was a stock podcast thanks to home finance made easy when you shop tech electrical appliances, kitchens and much more flexify your limited trading is home is regulated by the central bank of Ireland. Coming up on this episode of the Mario Rosenstock podcast that was an amazing the magical moment where the energy the vibe we sang the bvs it was like in the name of love and we were just like belting the song and then fast forward to two years later and I'm a coachella in the Sahara tent watching Martin Garrix everybody singing along and it's been a big game. Oh my god. And I've been in other scenarios where I've been in gym classes and then my song comes on and people are I see people working a little bit hard and I'm like yes because that's what motivates them or I see people crying or I see someone singing. Yeah wow. You know it's the most magical thing and it's even more magical that people are purely doing that maybe around me not knowing that I am one of the writers.

1:07What do Nile Horan, Britney Spears, Westlife, Martin Garrix and One Direction all have in common? The answer is they've all had hits written or co-written by Grammy nominated Irish singer songwriter Ruth Ann Cunningham. Ruth Ann is a real Irish success story with multi platinum global hits totaling over 10 billion streams and collaborations with greats like Diana Ross and John Legend. Ruth Ann joined me on the Sunday roast radio show and on to DFM a couple of years ago to tell me the story behind nice to meet you which she co-wrote with Nile Horan a song that went on to be a huge hit so we asked her to come back for a chat about all of her other hit songs or collaborations and of course her own successful career as a performer. She has some really really cool stories to that was when I was like nice to meet you and we were just nice to meet you watch your name I think that that was the first section we wrote and they got a love for you I love you that's real so I was trying to do the the kind of like that what would be like a thing that almost sounds like a sample and then Nile ended up doing it and it almost sounds like a sound got a love for you got a love for

2:07you that's real. Pink Bonnie Clope was out for three years it was just sitting there and it had not that many streams and it wasn't a hit and that's why I'm always saying the songs are the problem sometimes it's the vehicle people just love Irish people you know all the people before me that have made this great name for Ireland really helped me especially in my first times in Hollywood of like walking into rooms it was like being Irish was like the best all in card I had. My full chat with Ruth Ann Cunningham coming up in just a couple of minutes time but first of course you've noticed haven't just Saunas they're all the rage not just Saunas but the cold plunge and then back into the sauna everybody's doing it lots of companies are making money from it and they've even had a sauna I believe installed in Lentzer House would you believe ah this is a this is a great sauna going forward time it's an excellent sauna government sauna to add to our facilities at Lentzer House how much did it come in that again 4.2 million oh that's not bad value not bad value for a sauna and a plunge pool

3:08I don't know the plunge pool came in as 2.3 million extra all right Saunas are very good very good for the cardiac healthy here oh yes absolutely and the weight loss I sure we don't need to lose any way it's time and going forward let's say we're the lightest Toronto's the t-shirt combination in history like a pair of jockeys except it's not the horses we're riding that it's the country what sorry I'm joking I'm joking joking right yeah hi everybody just keeping you all informed of how I'm delivering for the country today today I tell you doing doing Instagram and the sauna I'm here with the t-shirt of course hello how are you sweating it out on behalf of the Irish ready to go just about to take a cold plunge are we right let's go right I've never done a cold plunge going forward oh no it's easy very good you just get in and you just put your body 100 100 moron a campaign that bad

4:09he get all right he's getting coming back in the sauna well let's get back in the sauna now that I can just chill through the beach that's better yeah that's better yeah yeah so stealing the Unionans here team that's excellent for a Collected she'll cover the conversation Absolutely, Simon, a league-proof sauna, huh? Absolutely. Hi, guys. Look, who goes there? Who goes there? He's Leo, is that you? I can't see you from Steve Leo. Sorry, guys. I still have my government file just in case you were going to say the... ...cofter. No problem going forward. Thanks for letting us know Leo. Hi, everybody. Still delivery. It's on Instagram. It's on Instagram. On behalf of the Irish people, joined by another C-Shock. Actually, forward C-Shock, Leo. We're at our ad. Hi, everybody. Well, Ledge, how's it hanging? Oh, really, really, really, really. What are you doing? Really, really, really. Of course, I'm, Willy. What are you talking about? No, Willy. The towel. It's a towel, please. You're supposed to be wearing a towel in the sauna. I got my streaming life to the Irish people, sorry about that, folks. Sorry about that. I put it away, Willy. Willy, for God's sake. Oh, I get the cops up here. I was unaware of the etiquette in situ in the sauna. Oh, no, Willy.

5:09It's no problem, Ledge. It's so steaming in here, nobody could see the offending appendage. Ferenc, that had nothing to do with the steam, Willy. What do you mean? That's just a little joke, Willy, a cap on, Willy. That's very funny. Anyway, it's not a bad little sauna, anyway, for 5 million. I thought it was 4.2 million. Oh, Jesus, no. You're not here, though, Josh. No, no, that was the court we got for Saunas or us. So who did this one then, Willy? This one then, Willy. At least there's a quite Celtic gold sauna. Praise me. I think that's what you're called, anyway. Ah, Ferenc. There you go, value. Very low, little wolf, which is this. Oh, Jesus, nothing. Give it a dump. Come, Carla. Come, Carla. Let the oil come. Come, Carla. Where's Fena fall? What's the Irish for Saunas? A dose. Tishek, the Irish for Saunas. What's this, Mary Lou? It's Saunas. I did not see that going forward. Well, there's a lot of things you don't notice these days, Tishek. And don't worry, Willy. Huh? I didn't notice it, either. Huh? Sloan. August Bannock Galer. Oh, God. Jesus. Did she not get the memo under towel, either? Ah, poor old Willy O.D.

6:10A new comedy every week on the Mario Rosa stock podcast. Get in touch with me directly. Mario Rosa stock at gmail.com. If you have any suggestions for guests that you would like to hear me interview, or sketches that you might like me to do, tackle, or new comedy characters that I haven't noticed that are out there, maybe you could tell me about them, alert me to them. I read all the emails and I get back to most of the MarioRoses.gmail.com. And if you can't do that, just recommend this podcast to one other person. Remember, we don't charge for it, so you get this for free. But do your best to give me an L nod of respect, as Tony Fenton used to say. And of course, we are joined by our new sponsor. That is Home Finance. Thank you to Home Finance for coming on board as sponsors of the MarioRoses.gmail.com. Home is a finance company based in Ireland with over 30 years experience globally. And we're delighted to be partnering up with them to bring you this show. Home provides flexible payment solutions for customers, across a wide range of retailers, IKEA, Harvey Norman, easy living interiors,

7:12easy living furniture, and DID to name just a few. So whether you're buying a kitchen, a laptop, or TV, some nice jewelry, or clothing, whatever it might be, Home is there to help you make those purchases and pay back in easy, bite-sized payments. It couldn't be easier. Home is there for the big things and little things in life. And now they're here for the MarioRoses.gmail.com. Thank you, Home. So let's get on with today's episode and let's meet my special guest, Ruth Ann Cunningham. She's one of Ireland's biggest, biggest singer-songwriter-success stories. And as you might expect, her love of music started very early. Yeah, I grew up in a very musical household. I was on the pubs in the race course in Baltoil when I was four. When we'd go for the Sunday Roast or the Sunday Calvary at the pubs, and the moment Dad would put me on the tables as the stories go, and I would just sing. I was kind of singing songs. And my mom and dad were, you know, my mom and dad sing in church. They sing in hospices. And they've always done that.

8:13So they were, they always were the family. We were always the family doing the sing songs. So if we went on holiday, the guitar was out. We were singing, you know, grace and Christy Moore and, you know, all the songs. So I grew up in a very musical household. And I would walk in and see my dad. I talk about it in the book, air guitaring to Led Zeppelin or fill in it. Then my mom, we would pick up my dad from work. He worked as a customs officer. So he was in Dublin, Portellas. And we would go to pick him up and she would play Gart Brooks. So I was listening to like the dance and the thunder rolls. And there's a video of me singing with my mom like a really sad song. And I'm like, what, I can't even remember what song it was. I'm like, what are we having me do? And it was like a really emotional song. So I was very much listening to Carol King and Leonard Cohen and James Taylor through my mom and dad. And then my sisters who were older than me, you know, one of my sisters was interborn Jovi, the other was inter Lauren Hill, you know, new kids on the block. So from a very early age, I was in a melting part of different music.

9:16And I loved it all. And I think my parents, I was just very obsessed with music. I just was, you know, I would sit and just listen. I would tape stuff from the radio back then. You had to tape recordings. Yes. I would just listen over and over to Maya Carey. And without anybody asking me to or telling me to, I would just practice the runs. I was like, yeah, yeah. At like eight. And then I started writing songs at seven. I started first of all replacing famous songs with lyrics about like Happy Mother's Day or you're the best mom ever. And I would use the melody from a song and replace it. And then at seven, I wrote my very first song, which was called, he lied to me. Deep, deep, deep. Santa Claus, that song was about it, was it? I don't know. I think my sister's I was always watching stuff, you know, Carnation Street. And he said, you know, you're watching little things around. And I wrote that and my parents straight away their first reaction was, well, who lied to you? And I'm like, I don't know. I saw it on the TV. And so I very much would write about things I saw on the TV film.

10:18It's very deep. I mean, he lied to me. It's like, you're cheaper stuff. That's like a song you, you're here, Olivia Rodrigo or something releasing. I know. I wish it was something. It's a great, it's a great title. And when you say the runs, you are repeating the runs, is that what does the runs mean? The runs are like, you know, like a riff, like a famous Maya Carey riff. And I'm like, it's like a scale that's really fast. So it's called riffing a run. I would, my dad gave me a two track tape recorder and a microphone. And because singing in church, they had all that equipment. And I would just be practicing. And then the other story goes that I like from five. And I sang, I have my first solo in the church. I sang this a lot of mine. I'm going to let it shine. And that was my big moment at the church. And so from then they let me join the children's choir. So I think where I started understanding songs, structure from, was actually when you get the sheets for the choir. And they would have first chorus. And I was looking at them sheets and I was five.

11:18And I was the youngest, they'd let join because normally it would be like seven or eight. But because I was belting everything from the pews, they were like, one, you can join. Because I was just like, yeah. So they let me join. And so I think that's where I learned song structure. And then yeah, I started writing songs. And I would teach them to my friends in the neighborhood. And they would sing my songs around the neighborhood. And that was how I kind of started. So you are a kind of, you were a mixture. You are a hybrid as well of a singer. But also very, very strong DNA songwriter. So for example, you know, when I think of something like Dolly Parton or somebody, you know, that kind of person who Dolly has the voice of an angel. But half of her, at least 50% of her, is that creative composition person. You know, and famously, you know, that story about writing Jolene. And I will always love you. In one day, she wrote it in one day. In one day. And I love hearing about that. But so you, so you are both things.

12:18I'm both things. I'm a singer songwriter. For me, they go together. I can't have one without the other. Do you know what I mean? Like they both go together. And I'm one without the other. It doesn't work. It's like they both have to be together. It doesn't mean I have to be Dolly Parton or Adele. It just means that the, my voice is my strongest instrument that I have. So like, you know, some songwriter sit at a piano. And I play piano as well. So I'm a musician and I, and I program, I produce, you know, I do all that stuff. But my strongest thing is I can sit. And I can, a lot of the songs that like you, some songs you might know of mine, I've written acapella. And I just will like them. And I'll write the entire song. Just singing it in a room somewhere. And then I'll go to the piano and I'll work out the chords around what I've written. And same with production. I will sit there and I will direct the musicians what I hear in my heads. And I'll hear the violins. I'll hear the strings. And so I wouldn't be that person who's like tweaking the, you know, I could do all that, the engineering side. I'm the person sitting with the engineer being like, right, we need strings to come in here.

13:20And they're going to sing this and I need the strings to do this. And like, the vision for the record. So I'm very much, my voice is everything. My voice is every instrument and is my main instrument. So for me, the singer and the songwriter are together. When I think of singers, when I think of singers and people who have songs. All right. I mean, so everybody from like, call it Robbie Williams, Taylor Swift. Right. So I think there's, I call it maybe off the top of my head, broadly two different types of people. There's one who has the vision themselves. Right. So they kind of go, I know what this song is about. It's about my life. It's called, he lied to me. I know what the first line is. I know what the chorus is. I know most of the lines. I know where the violins are. I know where the guitar is. Actually, I can play the drums as well. I'm actually just going to do it myself. And then there's another one where it's like someone like, maybe like Robbie Williams or somebody who goes, I just have this thing in my head, which goes, what? Fuck you. But that's all I've got.

14:21And then he needs somebody like Gary or the guy he worked with to go, I love that energy out of the, yeah, fuck you. Maybe that could be the thing. But we're going to build a whole song about that because that's not Robbie. Robbie doesn't have maybe that ability. It's more, he has the, he has the intent. Maybe the, the anger or the drive of the song, but he doesn't have the noose, the noose, the structural ability to put it together. Yeah. Do you, do you get me? 100% so in my book, I talk about the formula that I think you need in a room to make great songs, right? It's like hits songs to make universal songs and you've just described two of the roles. So I can play both roles and a lot of songwriters can do both. Some artists are the more the first one. So the, so there's two main components you need to make a great song. One is the idea person. The idea person is the person who almost doesn't think they just feel, they just bless, they're like, oh, I'm thinking and they sing something.

15:21And they might sing for like 20 minutes. The other component of that idea person is the song doctor. I call the song doctor. The song doctor is someone who has the bird's eye view, bigger picture and goes, that's the hook, that's the title, sing that again. Because sometimes the idea person, the artist or being sort of state of flow, that they don't know what's better. They might be like, oh, I don't know. And the song doctor is the person who comes at it more from a craft. So they craft. And so, you know, Robbie in the scenario of Robbie and Guy Chambers. And I've worked with Guy. So I know Guy and I've never worked with Robbie, but I've worked with Guy. And I would imagine in that scenario, Robbie is a great songwriter in the way of being the idea person. I'm coming and being like, I don't want to rock. I'm probably going on the mic, spitting loads of stuff on the mic. And Guy Chambers is going, repeat that line. You should do that again. The bitch should go up and that way. And so, and there are some songwriters, like I said, who can play both roles.

16:23And so there's time to go into a room. And I've been doing this for over 20 years now, professionally. So sometimes I go into the room and I know that my role that day, right, no one in the room is the idea person. So I'm like, okay, I'll step in with the ideas. Oh, I've got this title. I've got this thing. Other days, I might be in with an artist, like you said, who, you know, maybe starting to become a songwriter, maybe has a diary of thoughts or sometimes I'm sitting just have a conversation with them. And they're writing the song without even knowing it. And I'm taking no of all the strongest things they've said. Yeah. And then I'll say to them, well, the title, we need to write a song called that. Or that line you said, just tell me what you want to say. I help them to make it into a song. That's amazing. Amazing. It's amazing. It's incredible because really what you're talking about, I wrote down here emotional intelligence here as well, right? I wrote down, read the room and I wrote down therapists. They're all in my book. Everything is there. It's all therapy. It's all reading the room. It's all listening. It's really about listening.

17:24And it's really about vibes. Like, I mean, not the shitty meaning of the word vibes. Vibes has been, you know, dynamic and vibes and feeling somebody's energy and feeling maybe what's coming off them, what's coming out of them. And tapping into, tapping into their rawness. And I wrote down another word here as well. The ability to either project in your case or receive vulnerability. So it must be very important to be in a room where somebody can trust each other to be vulnerable. Yeah. And I, and everything you said again, it's all in my book like this, because I talk about all the roles as the therapist, as a researcher, as a director. There's the lone wolf. There's some people who are very instant. You have to sometimes, you know, or there's artists who need a minute and I fake a phone call because I'm like, they need a second. They're overwhelmed. They need a minute. So reading the, like, to be a songwriter, like, as far as a career goes, you have to be incredibly emotionally intelligent. You have to be able to read the room and know where you are.

18:24Where you need to fit and you need to take your ego out of it. It's not about you, it's about the song. So how do we get, how do I get, you're always thinking, how do I get the best out of this artist right now? What is the way that I get, and it's not in a manipulative way. It's in a way of, they need to trust you. They need to feel comfortable with you. So the job of a songwriter is actually quite intense and high pressure in a way because you might meet someone on a Tuesday at 12. And you need to make them comfortable enough with you. You need to make them like you. You need to get on and in a very genuine way, not a fake way. And you need to find some common ground. You need to be a chameleon sometimes because you could be in with different genres every day. And you need to be able to be someone that they will, you know, between the hours of 12 and 6 that you might have with them them day, spill their, tell you their deepest-darket secrets. And sometimes that can take the first session. You can just, you know, really get on with someone in the chemist's there or it might take a few sessions. And so ultimately, even if you don't get the song that day,

19:25you need to make them like you enough that they want to bring you back into their room. There needs to be a vibe in the dynamics. So your job as a songwriter is there's so much going on. That's why my book is called It's Not Just a Song. Because there's so much going on. I'm just jumping in here. Sorry, I don't normally jump. I don't normally jump in as much as I do. But because you're saying so many little button points here, there's some things that are really jumping out of me. Does it help try and take this question with as much as you can? Does it help being Irish in this, in this, yeah, I'm kind of wondering because I'm trying to think, yeah, I don't tell me why. Because everybody loves Irish people. So from very young when I was, I started doing this profession at 17, I was walking into rooms with, walking into rooms. And just with not knowing anyone, almost like speed dating, with not the romantic side. And being Irish always broke the ice. And also growing up in a family where we could chat to anyone.

20:25We started singing songs anywhere we went. Seeing my parents, you know, just talking to anyone. Like, you know, what Irish people will have a chat with anyone. Yes. It really served me well because social situations like that. I wasn't like, oh, I was very like, you know, yeah, what's going on? Let's have a chat. And also, I think what the Irishness that always, for me, broke the ice, was being telling a funny story. Or, you know, coming in and being like, you know, you had this and being very almost then. I've always found that being Irish 100% breaks the ice. And anywhere I would go, whether I was in, because I was traveling around a lot. Breaking the ice, telling stories. That's what I'm hearing. That's what I'm thinking. And making people laugh would disarm them. And even, you know, being vulnerable would disarm people. If I was like, I'm having a terrible day. That would open the Irish stuff or, or if they, you know, so I think all that Irishness and straightaway people just love Irish people. So I've never been in a room where it's always like, oh, I love Ireland.

21:27I love Irish people. So, you know, all the people before me that have made this great name for Ireland really helped me, especially in my first times in Hollywood, of like walking into rooms. It was like, it was almost like being Irish was like the best calling card I had. You know what you're lacking away, right? You know what you're lacking away? I don't know if everybody's, anybody's ever called you this, right? This is a compliment, right? Yeah, it helps. No, it is. But you're like a kind of a white witch. Do you know those kinds of, it's a good witch. Do you know those ones? It's a good witch. Yeah, not the bad witch. I like that. It's like a white witch. So you're like, you're like, you kind of a spell. It kind of a spell. You can cast a spell. You can receive a spell. You can understand the spell. Yes. You're kind of, you're dealing little bits of magic, basically. Yes. That's what your currency is. I don't think so. That's what your currency is. You're dealing little nuggets of magic and little fairy dust. But you know what my, what I feel like it is, though, is like, I just love music that much.

22:27It's my passion for music. Like, it's nothing that I, you know, do. It's just that I just love music and I love making music. And I have such a passion in the room. And I like to bring good energy to the room. And I'm like, what is the best song we can write? Like, I have no other agenda other than just like having a great day with people. And write a great song. Will you tell me an instance of a day where all of that came together for you. That you wrote, you had that kind of amazing day collaborating with somebody and something came out of it. And it was like, it kind of maybe summarized everything you're telling me now. I'd say in the name of love, the Martin Garrix one. Because I actually was not in a good place. I was broke. I'd had hits. I needed another. I was singing and wedding bands in LA because my parents were like, you're going to have to get the bone home. We don't have, you know, I was just, I had been up. I'd been rich. I'd been, and then I was poor. And I was, you know, not so hot and not so relevant and hit songwriter. And I'd had hits. And you know, you're only as good as your last day and all that.

23:29And I, and the session had been cancelled on me that day with this producer. And my publisher was like, look, Ilsea is free. And you've wanted to work with Ilsea. She's had her session cancelled. You've had her session cancelled. Like, that's getting together. And for a second, I was like, I'm just really ready to quit this industry. Like, did it. But something in me was like, no. Like, I think this is going to be a good day. Just make it a good day. And I got picked myself up off the floor as I like to call it. Creatives a lot of the time where we're on the floor, you know, ready to quit. Because it is a roller coaster. And I went to the session that day. And I had the title in the name of love. We'd written. I'd written a song in the name of love seven years prior. Nothing like the end in the name of love. Obviously, it's YouTube title. So I'm not trying to say that I, you know, thought of it myself. But a handy tip for songwriters. Titles are not copyrightable. So we can all write a million halos. We can write a CEO of five and years. And so she got the hit one. So you can reuse titles. Anyway. So I had that title. And I thought. I don't know. So I had that title. And I thought, I don't know, something about that title today. And I was, and I needed this session to go well because I needed to just feel better about making music.

24:33And when I'm depressed about making music and when my career isn't gone so well, I always go back to making music because the studio is the safest place for me. That's where it, you know, my love of music overrides any industry stuff that's stressing me out. So I went in and we wrote the song on 45 minutes. Now, and that's not in a boastful way of like, we wrote a song on 45 minutes of hit. But I had taken 10,000 hours to get to the skill level of having those songs are not written in 45 minutes. They're years in the making. And then it comes out in those 45 minutes. And Ilsi is such an amazing lyricist. And I just started singing. I was so depressed about the music industry. She was, you know, she was really down about a love interest that she was seeing. Everything she was saying was like, was what I was feeling about the music industry. But I didn't say that. So I was vibing with her and I was going with her on this journey. But what ended up coming out was the two of us talking, she's talking about love. I'm talking about the music industry and we wrote in the name of love in 45 minutes. And it was that like, you know, I'm doing all of this for you.

25:34What would you do for me? If I told you I was going to walk in the fire, are you going to do, if I told you it's going to burn, are you going to do that in the name of love? Like, what are you going to do for me? And so that was an amazing, the magical moment where the energy, the vibe, we sang the BVs. It was like, in the name of love. And we were just like belting the song. And then fast forward to two years later and I'm at Coachella in the Sahara tent watching Martin Garrix. Everybody's singing along and it's been a big hit. Oh my God. That is incredible. That kind of end to the journey where a song like that ends up and everybody's singing it. Is everybody singing your song live? Is that a kind of a major peak moment when you see live a few thousand people or 10,000 people or whoever singing your song and knowing it? Is that an amazingly moving experience for you? Yeah, every time it never gets old. Even like one per, like it doesn't matter who it is.

26:35It's like one person, 10,000. I mean, obviously, you know, you're in the Sahara tent and I'm in and I'm like, and the thing is it's so funny in them moments. I'm not really looking at the artist. I'm looking at the crowd. I'm always like looking around like I'm standing here. They have no idea. Or sometimes if I'm the artist on the stage, I sing the vowel. People sing along the vowel. My own song with me or my own songs. But when you're, people don't know to you. It's almost even more magical because they don't know that you, that this came, like in the name of love, came from the pain of almost quitting what I'm music. And now, and that song reviving me and being like, okay, no, I'm staying in the fight. I'm staying in the game. That's what that song did for me. So all those people singing that. And I've been in other scenarios where I've been in gym classes and I'm, you know, and then my song comes on. And people are, I see people working a little bit hard. And I'm like, yes, because that's what motivates them. Or I see people crying or I see someone singing. Yeah, wow. You know, like it's always magical. It's never not. It's the most magical thing.

27:36And it's even more magical that people are purely doing that. Maybe around me not knowing that I am one of the writers. The other thing about vulnerability and I know I write sketches all the time, Ruth Ann, right? So I write comedy sketches all the time, which is related in a way to writing music because most of the comedy sketches are three to four minutes long. And you have to tell a story in three to four minutes and get out. Ian Dempsey often said to me, you know, we're going to try and make this thing every day. You know, we're trying to put on your sketch every day. And really, you know, what's the objective? The objective is you want to entertain people. You want to make people laugh. You want people to know what you're talking about straight away and you're in there. But like, otherwise we're playing Billie Jean. So you've got to get in ahead of Billie Jean because we can always play Billie Jean. And Billie Jean is a fucking great option. Yes. But so you get in there, but we've heard it a million times. Hearing it a million and one times is still good.

28:37But can you do something fresh? That's going to be instead of Billie Jean. So that's what you've got to do. And one of the things that we do is you riff in rooms and you play and you pitch ideas. And so sometimes I'm like a features editor or a features, pitching a feature in a newspaper. And they go, so you meet the editor and they go, what you got today? Well, I've got the traveler story where their caravans have moved into La La La and I've got the blood thing story in the hospital. And they go, let's go with the blood thing like that. So that's what we do. So I've got five ideas which are comedy and we kind of go, let's sound to that. But one of the ways you can... That's very like songwriting. That's very... You're literally... That's basically the same. But one of the things you've got to do as well is not be afraid to be stupid, silly and obvious. So you've got to be in rooms where you say things that sound sometimes actually stupid. A silly and naive and obvious and not funny. So you're...

29:37Where is somebody could turn around to go? I thought you were meant to be funny. That's like a basic. But sometimes you've got to go there to kind of go back to square one and all that sort of stuff. And I remember thinking... I remember thinking the first time I heard, nice to meet you. I remember going, what the fuck? What the fuck? And actually, I have to be honest with you. 20 times later, I was getting it. Of course. But this came up. This is you and Nile Horan working together. Yeah. We're just telling you. You need to buy us. Yeah, yeah. Go on. Go on. Fill around at me and just tell me how something like that comes out. And are you looking at each other going, nice to meet you. Do you know what I mean? You know what? Again, I carry a lot of titles around. And nice to meet you as one of the titles I had in my phone. Was it? Was it? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I remember that day Nile had the guitar and he had a guitar riff he was playing. And then I remember Julian being on the desk.

30:39Tobias was talking about like Tobias comes out with amazing lines about the tattoo. And Julian, you know, to be honest with you, we kind of all sometimes in songwriting, you almost blank out. Because the vibe and the energy is so strong that you're writing lines so you're just ju-ju-ju-ju-ju. And I was like, I love you because I'm, I immediately, I'm, whenever I write with artists, I'm always trying to get the single. Right? Everybody is, right? It's very competitive right now. And I'm all, I always want that song that's going to be one of their defining songs. The show opener, the closer, the big song, you know. And I think that with Nile for that record, definitely from my perspective, I was like, okay, we're going to get him something that's just so, you know, just out, you know. I remember, I remember is talking about, you know, Moby, let me entertain you. These great songs and some of the 90s, 90s rock and rock pop.

31:40And so Julian, like, I remember making, he made the tracks so fast. And I remember Nile was playing the guitar riff. And we were just, we kind of, he was telling us a story about something that we ended up writing about. And I think because of the story he was telling us, that was when I was like, nice to meet you. And we were just nice to meet you. Watch your name. I think that that was the first section we wrote from my memory. And that, that was the first section. And then the, and the guy I love for you is like, you know, anyone who works with me inside, I'm always trying to inject some like soul in there. If you ever hear it, I was like, I love you, that's real. So I was trying to do the kind of like, what would be like a thing that almost sounds like a sample of my voice. And then Nile ended up doing it. And it almost sounds like a sound got a love for you, got a love for you, that's real. And then Tobias was just like, I remember Tobias, like, he went outside for a second. And he came back and he was like, I want it. And he did the number tattooed on my arm. And he came in and just sang that.

32:40Yeah. And he had the verse melody. Then we were trying to lyric it. And then we were just bouncing, bouncing, bouncing. And then I remember, not a Julian saying to Nile, we need like some weird French line or something. And then it was like, you know, Nile and him were like, Jadour La Mer. Yeah. So the randomness that you might have felt from just, you know, Jadour La Mer. It was like, it almost was like, we were a character. He was a character, you know. And I really love that song so much. And I remember saying in the room, this is like a sink dream of like football. You know, it's been used in so many sinks. And also a show opener. It's a show opener. It just opens a show, you know. That's what he's been doing. Yeah. He opens a show with it. So yeah. You say Jadour La Mer or whatever. And that's thought that reminded me of something in a comedy sketch, which is like, sometimes in a sketch, comedy sketch, a line gets repeated. They're like catch phrases. And that's like, it's a hook. It's a hook line.

33:40Yeah. So you go, the sketch was about this, this and this. And people go, yeah, but I love the bit that your man goes, Jadour La Mer. And I go, yeah, but it's not about that. And he goes, yeah, but that's my favorite bit. And he goes, yeah, no, but you're not like the sketch. No, I like the sketch, but I love the Jadour La Mer. Well, you know, in songs, you're always, I call it like, I say it in the book is why unique simplicity. So you always want something that people can grab onto that simple, but also something that makes you go like, we could have had it all rolling in the deep. You're like, oh, you're like, oh, what was that? Like you're always as a songwriter. You're always looking for something that makes people go, oh, what's that? And a, and a unique way of saying something and something that then will become its own thing. And so I think as a songwriter, I'm always looking for great concepts, great twists and concepts. Yeah. And also hooks that will, and for me as well, it's about universal. Like what's the most universal way we can say this? What's the most universal way we can say this? What's the most universal way that people can feel something? What's the most universal language without?

34:43So you always want to mix, you know, conversation lyrics with something really unique and right and new. And someone goes, oh, they, and almost like you've created a new phrase or you've brought back a phrase or you've twisted a phrase. You know, so there's so many different things that, and it's not like, no one sits there. It's not a rule, you know, I have a chapter in the book called the top 10 rules of hit making. It's not that they're rules that you need to sit and study. It's just they become embedded in your songwriter DNA. Like you end up, I call it songwriter DNA. All the experience, all the sessions and all the 10,000 hours. You end up just learning these things. Yeah. And you start, you start being like, oh, okay, this phonetic sounds good here. Like we could have had it. Oh, Rick and Paul, like the, anyone in the world can sing an ah. So it's like the phonetic start becoming part of it. And so, you know, it, but it is a skill. It's a skill that you, your muscle, your songwriting muscle needs to work on. You know, when I was young with our 17, I think I had a good sense of melody. But I think, lyrically, I was younger and I had an experience a lot. And it's only like, as I got later into my 20s, I would go, okay, I'm getting better.

35:47I'm getting better lyrically now. You know, and, and so you, you're always learning and always getting better. Watermelon sugar high. Yeah. It's bonkers. It's bonkers. It's bonkers, but it's like, also, it's like a new phrase. It's, it's unique. It's, but it's simple. They just sing it over and over so you can't get it out of your head. There's so many things about it that are so absolutely. It also rolls off the tongue. So watermelon. So watermelon sugar. Ha, watermelon. You can almost say that in infinite, infinite number of times. Yeah. It's the phonetics. That is a lot of the time, like the reason why, if we did in the name of, in the name of, you know, me, the sound is good. In the name of love, like, everything needs to sound great on the ear. And it's about how it rolls off the tongue, the hundred percent. And that's how things become hooky and that's how they become universal.

36:47You have to think of it like that. But, but there's also times where, and I talked with this in the book as well, I have a chapter called breaking the rules, the exceptions. There's also times where you need to not be too, it has to be this. There are times when the song needs to be written out of pure, like, no crafting. Mama just killed a man. Yeah. It needs to be whatever you went through, whatever you want to talk about, the vow from he was that. The vow I didn't think, I just wrote. And I didn't say, oh, but the phonetic here and the, we need to have something more hooky. I just wrote it because it was coming from a place of like writing a song about uncondition love and what I want to define and what my parents. There are songs where you need to craft. And if you want to be a top songwriter in the world, like, you know, writing these big universal hits, there is a certain amount of craft, right? But then there's also songs that defy all of those rules and become hits. And I've done, I've had, I've been lucky enough to be a part of votes for the songs.

37:47Yes, did you watch Paul McCartney's Wings documentary? I haven't watched it yet. You know that Ilsi who I wrote in the name of Love With, her dad was the guitarist in Wings. Wow. Yeah, and she's, what was his name, what was his name? Honestly, I don't know. I've never met him. Oh, yes, sorry. But he's the guitarist in Wings. But yeah, I have to watch it. I am such a music documentary fan. And when I, like, the classics album, the classic album doc of Fleetwood Macreamers, I've watched, I could probably recite it to you. I read books about how albums are made, the Paul Simon Gray slam one. I always hate the people who want to get into this, become a student of song, study. And the studying is, you know, watching the great, if you want to be a singer, watch the great singers. And just keep watching them, keep watching them. And if you want to be a songwriter, watch every documentary, watch how the greatest albums were made. You know, study, study, study, you know, and get my book. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Don't think your book is just an absolute prime way of looking at this.

38:49But like the McCartney, one of the things in McCartney that they cover, it's about Wings. So it was a sticky period for him at times at the beginning. Wings didn't get off the ground, forgiving the poem at the beginning, and then it did. And then at the end, it was pretty much a huge success. But at the beginning, it had several reincarnations and iterations, which didn't work. And McCartney was very uncool, really uncool. He was the one thing that the world was rejecting at the time. They were going prog rock. They were going, you know, Mark Bowlin and all this and David Bowie. And he stayed where he was. And people were accusing him of writing these silly love songs. And then he actually ended up writing his song called, silly love songs. And then he goes, some people turn, turn, turn, a silly love songs. And then the chorus goes, I love you. So he actually sings a silly love song in response to the people who accuse him of writing silly love songs. It was really kind of an interesting thing to do.

39:51But I love that. He was ahead of his time. I mean, this is same. I always say to people about pet sounds. Like pet sounds was critically panned, failed. It was ahead of its time. And it really affected Brian Wilson. Because for him, it was such a, you know, he was a visionary. And he was ahead of his time. But people didn't understand it. People were like, this is, whoa, whoa, whoa. And if it commercially failed. Now, if I, when I say that to people, they're like, what? It's one of the best albums of all time. And I'm like, yes, but when it came out, it was commercially panned. It was critics were like, you know, and it's like, it's like Queens. Freddie Mercury's manager saying, no one is going to play an eight minute song on the radio. And so, and wings was the same. And then, and then, you know, that's why I always say to people like reviews and numbers. Like, don't be so obsessed with them because you could have a song. And it could come out in five years, in five years time. It might blow over in years time. You know, people will look back and go, pet sounds is one of them. But at that time, it wasn't received well because people didn't understand it.

40:52Yeah, like, oh boy, this exists in filmmaking as well. So, just a brief anecdote here. But just like one of the great horror movies is called The Thing. And it's stars Kurt Russell. And it's directed by John Carpenter. And it came out in 1982. And it's an absolute stone-called world classic. It completely bombed. Why? Because it came out in the same weekend as ET. Oh, Lord. Right, so it had absolutely no chance. The biggest movie of all time was released. And it got drowned. And it never got found again. Similarly with the Shawshank Redemption. Shawshank Redemption was released. And the first same weekend as two of the biggest movies of all time. It was perfection and something else. And, and, and it got drowned out until later it found a video on the map video. And so, so timing is really important. And a song or an album can be written at a certain time. It can be brilliant or whatever. But it might not find its place at that time.

41:53Jeff Buckley was the same. Jeff Buckley. I mean, honestly, he's one of my favorite arts of all time. And he again, commercial fail. You know, signed by a record label. And the first album commercially failed as far as the record label. And, and, and the success. And, and, and then he passed away. Sadly, we lost such an amazing artist. And then now he's Jeff Buckley. And he influenced, ever call play calls him an influence. Like, you know, every, so many artists are like, yeah, Jeff Buckley's grace album. Great, grace is one of the best records of all time. And it was, again, a commercial failure. So, so for me, when I'm thinking about writing songs, same with some of the songs I've written. If they don't get cut straight away. So, say if I write a song and it's for pitch, and we're pitching it to artists. And it doesn't find harm straight away. I don't ever think that's the song. I think some, especially if I know the song is strong, the song finds its, its home in two years. Same with songs I've written where, you know, there was one song I wrote called Little Do You Know. And Alex and Sierra, they had won the X-Fact in the USA.

42:54And they flopped. And then five years later, someone put it on a YouTube video. And it absolutely went nuts. And now it's, you know, double multi-platinum. And they broke up. The band aren't even together anymore. But the song is huge. And, and, and antique talk. It's been just recently in the last few years. Huge antique talk. So, it's like, you know, for me, I don't really look at the, like, think of the value of my work from the success of it. I think of, you know, what I love about it. And when I'm writing songs, I think about making the best art that I can make, because it's all art. And if people don't understand it now, they might in five years' time. And it might have some of the biggest moments for the songs might be, be, be coming still. Yeah. Yeah. I don't get bogged down in success or numbers. I'm just wondering. I was looking around because obviously I work in radio. And so you hear a lot of, you hear a lot of pop songs. And you tune out for a while sometimes. But then you tune in for a while.

43:54And you go, what am I hearing? What am I hearing? I'm one of the things that I'm hearing a lot. And you'd be aware of this. It's very few bands. There's not many bands. Yes. So bands are, we're not in the era of bands anymore. But we definitely are in the era of female singers. Yes. I mean, boy, there are some, I mean, I didn't even know, like, sorry, forgive my, I didn't even know who Olivia Dean was until last week. Yeah. And then she's like the absolutely massive thing, you know? And I worked with Olivia at the very beginning. Did you? Yes, I did. And she's such a lovely person. And I remember we got a train home together from the session. And she said to me, she was talking about gigging at the week. She was like, oh, cut these gigs. And then she said, because I don't think people get it, like, I want to be the biggest artist in the world. I'm going to be the biggest artist in the world. And for me, I was like, she was amazing. But I was like, whoa, she's cut, like, wow, I love that confidence. Because the industry, you know, would be like, do you know what I mean? The industry at that time would have been like, all right.

44:56Not, you know, but, but she had this vision. And she stuck to her guns. And she stuck with her instincts. And that's why she's winning. Because she just refused to let the industry stop that from happening. And she just made it happen. And so I'm really proud of her. And I know a lot of the songwriters very well that work with her. And, you know, Max Wolfgang is, you know, I've written with Max Loads. And he, he did rain, rain me in. And so easy to fall in love and John Ryan. And who I've done a lot of the one director stuff did. So easy to fall in love. And it's like to watch her win now is incredible. Because, you know, there was, there's a thing about the industry like if you don't instantly become successful, especially these days. People count you out. But it's the people who just keep going. And it's the people who just refuse to take. No, and it's the same as songwriters. It's like people ask me like, you know, what do I think successful songwriters are that they just don't quit. They just keep going. They refuse to give up. I know I hear you, but you just said there, this girl Olivia Dean said, I want to be the biggest in the world or whatever, right? Now, I could argue with you there.

45:57There's tons of girls saying that. And there's tons of girls with talent. And they won't take no for an answer. And they are going to tell you to fuck right off if you disagree with them. And if you say the business is hard and la la la, they go, I know the business is hard. And I'm going to do it. I mean, surely there's lots of girls and boys like that within. Yes, there is. There is. I always say you have to have a little bit of delusion. But at the end of the day, you need great songs. So you've got to have like Olivia wasn't just someone saying like, I'm going to do this. It was like, if you have the songs to back it up. So for me, it's like everything has to align. Momentum has to be building. The songs need to be there. And also, like you said, we're in an era where the music and the music and she goes and cycles. It always has. Yeah. So, you know, sometimes you're going to have, there was a huge era of dance. There was a huge era of like, as each of you, David get out. Then it might go into an R, you know, an R and B. Then it might go into a rock era. Then it might go back to dance.

46:57And right now, like you said, we're in, you know, Olivia brought back something that was missing. You know, and so I always say as well, like you can go out in a limb and you can go for that sound and it might not work at that time. But what she did was she just stuck to the sound that she wanted to do. It's kind of like Teddy Swims as well and Noah can. It's like they just, artists now, you know, are getting to just do the music that they want to do. And what's interesting is while we don't have a lot of bands, we have a lot of music that's influenced by bands like Harry Styles as it was. That's all influenced by those bands, you know, but he's just happened to be a solo artist bringing it back. So I do believe that the bands are going to come back. You know, I think everything goes in cycles. Like Florence Road is a great new Irish female band that I'm like, okay, loving this, you know, the wet leg. There's this band, the last inner party. They are there. And I do think that we'll go back to an era like that. But I think the music, and she goes in cycles. So right now, Billie Eilish, Olivia Dean, Olivia Rodrigo,

48:00you know, Taylor, I mean, Taylor has been, you know, running it for a long time. But as in, we're in that era where the female, and you know, that's an amazing, that's amazing to have females be, be winning the Grammys and winning. I think you were saying that you were saying that you need to be successful at the early RLS people lose faith in whatever. But I think Chapel Rowan went through a period where she was, I had a bit of success and then fell off and then had to kind of reinvent herself. And the pink pony club thing, I think, is absolutely extraordinary. I think that's it. I think that's a really, really, an amazing song. And that must be sort of autobiographical because it just feels, it seems so, it seems just impossible not to be. But you know, and you know the story of that, you know, that she wrote that when she was still signed to Dan, who is her producer and also produces a live-year Rodrigo, he worked at Chapel when she was signed to Atlantic. I think it was Atlantic.

49:01And they sent pink pony club. And he did an interview and he was like, they taught the title was stupid and they didn't believe in the song. And so I don't know if they released it, but with the label or without the label, because she ultimately ended up being dropped and then Dan signed her as a production deal and then they licensed it through Ireland, right? But pink pony club was out for three years before it got, it was just sitting there and it had not that many streams and it wasn't a hit. And so that's why I'm always saying it's not the songs of the problem. Sometimes it's the vehicle, sometimes it's the timing, the vehicle. And when so, so then Chapel started really gaining momentum. She went on tour with the live-year Rodrigo. She opened for a live-year Rodrigo. She, you know, was putting out music. And I can't remember it was hard to go or a good look, but then pink pony, people came back to pink pony club. And that's what's so amazing is that for her, you know, there's that really famous video now of her playing to like 50 people.

50:03And then it cuts to like two years later, same with Olivia. You know, playing to an empty crowd and then whatever. And it's like, right now there's such a, there's not as many gay keepers and that can happen, but that label had that song. And they thought pink pony club was stupid. And they thought the character of Chapel Realm was stupid. And like, and Ray had the same thing. They had escapism. They didn't believe in it. She went on her own. And so for me, it's like, I think now the music industry is starting to go, okay, maybe we've been wrong about some things. You know, now they're going, okay, maybe we need to start believing a little bit more in our artist's visions and everything. So you're seeing now what I'm seeing as a songwriter. Labels are now starting to develop artists again. They're starting to sign artists that are, don't have lots of numbers and are starting at the beginning. And you know, so that's really exciting for me as a songwriter to get in on those projects at the beginning and hopefully start up them into being the next Olivia Dean. And my thanks to Ruth Ann Cunningham for coming in and telling me her fascinating story or at least the first part of it.

51:05We talked for so long that I think there is enough material worthy to bring you all the other stuff that she talked about in the episode. She's got more fascinating stories. I adore the whole idea of the story behind the song. What was behind certain songs? What is the creative process like, as you can imagine? And of course, my thanks to Home Finance for coming on board. A sponsor is once again of the Mario Rosenstein podcast. They've been here for 30 years, based in Ireland, and they have flexible payment solutions for customers across a wide range of retailers like IKEA and easy living interiors. Home is there for the big things and the little things in life and now they're here for this podcast. And thank you to Home for getting on board. Thank you to you for listening. Remember, tell one other person if you can about this episode and the second half of Ruth Ann Cunningham comes next week. See you folks. The Mario Rosenstein podcast. Thanks to Home Finance made easy when you shop tech electrical

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