INTERVIEW | Make Money by Building Innovation That Scales, feat. Linda Hill, Jason Wild, and Emily C. Tedards

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What's going on everybody?

Welcome back to The Travis Makes Money Podcast, where it's a mission to help you all make

some more money.

Today on the show, I am talking to three new friends of mine.

That's right, three people all at the same time.

We're talking about one core concept here, and then I'll just go one by one through them.

First off, we have Linda Hill, she's a PhD at Professor at Harvard Business School and

is globally recognized as a top leadership and innovation expert.

It's been named by Thinkers 50 as one of the world's top five management thinkers, number

four in 2025.

Then we have Jason Wilde, Jason's a founder and principal at Wild Innovation and former

global vice president of CEO, co-innovation and customer engagement over at Microsoft.

And part of that, he was the senior VP of transformation and innovation at Salesforce.

So a little bit of, I don't know if you've heard of those companies, but they've been

doing some pretty big things.

And then lastly, we have Emily Tetterd's, who's a graduate researcher in organizational

behavior at Harvard Business School and a doctoral fellow with Harvard Kennedy Schools re-imagining

the economy initiative.

And then together, recently, they wrote a new book called The Genius at Scale, which is

all about new leadership and how to succeed in today's environment as a leader.

Welcome to Emily Jason, thank you so much for taking the time to join me on the show

today.

Hi, Jim.

Let's go ahead and jump in here with the book, Genius at Scale, Linda.

Can you give us a breakdown first off why this book, why now, as all the stuff that you

guys do, you can write a book about whatever you want to write a book about.

So why this topic, why is it relevant now?

In our book, we really focus on how do you build an organization that can innovate time

and again and innovate time and again at scale.

Not only generate an innovative solution, but frankly, make it a reality.

And too often, we see that people come up with great ideas, but they never get launched.

They never get commercialized.

So our book really focuses on that problem.

So Jason, can you tell me how you three came together on this project?

It's sort of, you can sort of draw lines between Emily and Linda being both associated

with Harvard Business School and then you're sort of over here as the third guy in the party.

So tell me exactly, we explore the topic of relationships and networking.

Pretty often here on the show, so I'm curious how this partnership came together.

Yeah, for sure, Travis.

It's okay.

You can cover the third wheel.

I believe it or not.

I met Linda over 10 years ago when I was leading innovation at IBM.

Linda was finishing up her last book, Collective Genius with her own co-authors.

We got it to do.

And as a practitioner, at that time, I had been leading projects for IBM around the world

from Ghana to Singapore and of course the US, almost 40 countries.

And I was enjoyed talking to academics and analysts.

But there was something about Linda that was very different in the first conversation.

As you know, innovation and leadership, these are really interesting, sexy topics

that attract a lot of interest and wannabes.

But Linda was the first person outside of the practitioner community that I had met,

that really understood the messy, non-linear side of how difficult it really is to innovate,

whether you're a large company or even a startup.

So I felt like we hit it off from that first conversation.

We stayed in touch.

I think as Linda's explained it, I was an unnamed contributor to the last book.

And then soon thereafter, like for the six professors doing a book, Golding Gate Bridge,

painting, you start the next one.

So when Linda invited me on this journey, it was, I guess, the Gilligan's Island version of book writing.

In my head, I had like two, three years in a row of books done.

And here we are almost ten years later.

And earlier this week, we published our book.

And we're still friends.

And in the middle of this, obviously got to meet Emily, I'd say about five or six years ago.

And in Linda's words, it's very important to her.

It's to us.

It's our first team, different generations, different perspectives.

And so yeah, I'm the practitioner of the group.

And it's been a great opportunity because my world is a project to project.

You know, you get a project, it's exciting, you go down a rabbit hole,

you finish that project and you wait for the next project.

So it was really enriching in so many different ways.

For me as a leader, as a person to kind of slow down, step back, reflect,

and kind of understand what can I learn from others as we are studying now

to help me be a better leader and obviously learn so much.

And I'm so blessed and privileged to have met Emily.

Yeah, I love the combination of the two worlds where you sort of bring the like philosophy

and the practitioner experience together into one cultivated, well-rounded piece of material

rather than, you know, a practitioner who's just giving anecdotal evidence

versus a researcher who hasn't like touched and felt and done the thing.

You know what I mean?

And then we kind of put together both of those things into a single book,

which is an awesome project.

Emily, tell me about your involvement here.

Obviously, I'm assuming you and Linda met somehow through Harvard.

But you were the third person brought on to this project.

Tell me about your experience.

Yeah, so I arrived at Harvard in 2019 by way of Care.com, really a lucky break on Care.com.

I was nanning before after college, and this was my first real job.

So I joined the team as a 24-year-old.

I had never been exposed to a business.

I had never worked for a firm.

I had never met a CEO.

And this was just eye-opening and life-changing in every which way.

Being able to do this ethnographic research with Linda across the globe,

finding myself in boardrooms, in corporate offices, coming from Tucson, Arizona.

It was just, it was absolutely incredible.

And it's been the most privileged to be able to collaborate with Linda and Jason on this project.

How did you get your foot in the door from that?

From Care.com.

Yeah.

Well, so this is a show about entrepreneurship.

So I financially supported myself through college.

And so I found that nanning in New York City was very lucrative.

And so I did that.

And I did a master's degree right afterwards.

And when I was applying for jobs, I applied for over 150 jobs after my master's degree.

And I was rejected from all of them.

So I needed to make money in the meantime.

So I started nanning again.

I signed up for Care.com.

And the first job interview I had, this woman invited me to her house.

And I walked in the door and she said,

Hey, actually, I don't want you to watch my kids.

I saw your CV and I saw you were doing this research at LSE.

And I want to hire you for a research project.

What?

So that led to this crazy three months of my life,

this series of events that ultimately led me to Harvard Business School because of a paper I had to look at for the research project.

No one.

And then I luckily, at the time, I was harassing HR at HBS to see if they had any full time roles.

And this one with Linda opened up.

And it was, yeah, it was kind of a match made in heaven.

The first time we met, we were scheduled for like a half hour interview.

And it lasted three hours.

And we bonded over all these things.

And I was so worried because I had to get back to New York on a bus that afternoon.

And I remember being so stressed out about getting back.

But yeah.

So anyways, that day absolutely changed my life.

And I am thankful to Care.com and the wonderful people I met through that.

Yeah, I guess you could say that.

Linda, I'm curious from your perspective, what made you choose?

And obviously you have no shortage of people that you could bring on to a project like this being as tender as you are.

I'm having the resume that you had.

What made you, you know, for somebody who's listening, I'm trying to like put them in Emily's chair.

As somebody who's just like, man, I checked all the boxes.

I did everything I thought I was supposed to do.

The job market is not rewarding me to the degree that I thought that it was supposed to be rewarding me.

How do I put myself in a position to get these types of opportunities?

What is it that you saw on Emily that made it to where it's like light bulb moment we have to bring her on this project?

Well, there are two things I should say.

The first thing I should say is I have been very, very blessed to have wonderful research associates.

And so Emily was my research associate.

But I don't let them leave until they hire their replacement.

So they are all, before I met Emily, my current research associate had met Emily.

And so this is the one for you.

So I have figured out I may not be the easiest person to work with and I kind of think in crazy ways.

So she'd been interviewed by my former research associate.

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Who it sort of vetted her and brought her into my.

So I trust my former research associate.

We still work together on things.

And I dedicated the last book to my research associates because without them I couldn't be who I am today.

They are marvelous.

And you sit down with, I'm going to call you a young person at the time and you just listen to how they think.

And when you talk to Emily, you discover very quickly how she's just a wise person and she's unbelievably brilliant.

And she's fun.

So when I sort of begin to feel that if the conversation can go on for three hours and I'm thinking,

boy, this is a person of integrity.

And you know, look what she's done.

Look at how she thinks.

Look at what she wants to accomplish with her life.

I'm very, I'm open.

You don't have to be open.

You immediately will become aware of that about Emily.

But again, she had already been vetted by my research associate.

The one before her is also brilliant, really wise and also just a lot of fun.

So I only want to work with people that I enjoy.

And as Jason said, I met him a while ago.

So advice for people if you want to find, you know, don't do work if you can.

We are not all blessed that way.

But when you connect with someone, take that very seriously.

Yeah.

And those are people that believe me, the book, we have fun.

This was all a very, very hard book to write.

We use the methods of anthropology to do our work.

And so one of the reasons it took so long is we wanted to study leaders all around the world in a whole range of industries and government, et cetera.

So we had to travel together to collect the data.

And we had lots of what we call creative abrasion.

That is, you know, to get really, you have to have competition of ideas.

You have to be able to really have constructive debate.

And we have diversity of thought here because of how we're different in so many ways.

And I think that Emily, you know, a three hour conversation, Alison had already had a one with her and said,

this is someone I think you're going to like.

And again, Emily picked her successor, Lydia, and same way, and unbelievably marvelous person as well.

That is an awesome way to find new people is to have people who already know what it's like to work with you.

Go find somebody who's like them to continue to work with you.

Well, no, they're all very different.

So don't make them be like them, but someone who knows you well enough to know what you need better than you know what you need.

So that's the way I would gun for it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jason, I'm curious from your perspective researching this book as a practitioner,

was there anything that you found in just interesting data sets or a study that you found,

a story that you found that you thought was maybe the antithesis to what the book was?

Anything that was surprising that came up in the research to put this book together?

Yeah, I know there were definitely, I think, lots of braintergs and surprises.

I mean, for one, I'm a parent, and if they're listening, and they might be,

I love all of my kids.

And similarly, in the book, I love all of the chapters.

And I think one of the things that makes the way that we approach the book very unique,

is, you know, lots of times business books for me as a practitioner.

They can be really theoretical.

They can be somewhat academic.

You know, they can be literally or figuratively a good tool to help you go to sleep.

So I had no interest in writing a book, let alone a book that is going to be just another business book.

And having Nolinda and a little bit of the formula of what she did in her previous books,

part of what really connected with me as a practitioner is,

it reminded me a lot of like the best workshops that we would have with clients.

And you have these senior leaders.

And it kind of became a bit of the principles of our book, right?

And what I mean by that is, of course, the content has to be relevant.

It has to inspire them.

But we live in a world where there's a fire alert, distractions all the time every day.

And we're literally in a war for people's attention.

So the content has to be a bit entertaining, too, in a business proper way.

Right? Or you're going to lose their attention.

So I think part of how we wrote the book, I think, is, of course, it's very scholarly.

And it's grounded in a lot of research.

And I part of it that resonated with me as a practitioner is a bit of part of organizations

where there are leaders who are in the right place at the right time.

And they get a lot of the glory.

And I think part of just the approach of Emily and Linda,

of literally studying these people in different contexts, often different roles,

over years and years and years, to kind of filter out those people who were in the right place

and maybe just running an organization and got lucky.

And really the exceptional leaders.

So I think the one that is the favorite of the favorite, and I think,

and it's just a coincidence that I know you have a lot of listeners who are focused

on small business and entrepreneurs, is Avatar Inn.

Avatar Inn is a spin-out of a Japanese airline that I'm more an airline in Japan,

A&A, think of it as the Delta United.

Right? So highly risk-averse, regulated airline.

That basically wants to do two things.

Cell seats on planes and then get people from A to B.

And you had two junior engineers, individual contributors,

who were very young in their career.

No budget, no authority, kind of very unknown inside of the organization.

They started with a question about, you know, why can't humans teleport?

And they literally got laughed at.

They realized that the technology is very far away.

But it led them to a sharper question around,

why is it that only roughly 6% of the people in the world fly commercially every year?

And competitively, we're in this like back alley knife fight,

trying to win market share over that 6%.

And instead, what if there's an opportunity to give, you know, mobility,

and some offerings to the other 94%.

So they ended up igniting a global movement around Avatar,

versus an arguably, in my opinion, most humanistic robotics platform that exists.

And we obviously tell the story, I think, in great detail in the book.

But to me, they built something intentionally that was bigger than that.

And part of their success was for it to continue and thrive without them,

that they don't need to be involved.

So I think it's a great story that many ways is against all odds.

And lots of people think of ecosystems being the result of

kingmaker alliances and really big companies coming together,

it's standardizing something.

But what we learned is that these movements start with people and ideas.

They become a shared purpose and a coalition with the willing.

And a result, you know, after their success,

we start to associate the companies and the brands with those ecosystems.

And I think that's a powerful, hopeful message,

especially in this time, that if you really want to focus on it,

and you leverage yourself the right way,

anybody can ignite a movement.

Yeah, that's awesome. I love that insight.

Emily, I'm curious from your perspective today.

I want you to talk about this headline that I saw recently.

Actually, an episode about this recently on the show.

It was said something like, I believe it was 60% of recent Gen Z graduates

that were hired at companies that 60% of them were turned over within

a couple of months.

And it was sort of like this generic commentary on the younger generation.

Of course, people throwing stones at the generation as a whole,

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They have poor written communication skills, all these other things.

Is there anything in particular that you found that was helpful in the research that you uncovered

on how to potentially help lead the new generation?

Because I typically find that it's probably not the fault of an entire generation.

There's probably just some leadership shifts that need to happen.

In order to learn how to guide this new generation of, you know,

to figure out what the motivation points are.

Did you guys uncover anything in your research that's helpful for people that are considering that portion

where they're just like, man, I'd love to bring these young people in an organization.

We're just, we're not having an alignment of value here.

We're not having an alignment of mission.

It's everything that you uncovered that could help people lead the younger generation.

I think we certainly see leaders trying more and more to collaborate across generation.

And they recognize the importance of doing that.

I think some of the pitfalls that we see are one kind of this divide that emerges.

You could call it potentially a class structure between like the new guard and the old guard,

where like the legacy point of view is seen as the old protector of the status quo.

And the new perspective is maybe seen as naive or not prepared to contribute in some ways.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think I generally disagree with any type of categorical generalization like that.

If that's already in someone's mindset going into the workplace, I fear that can be very damaging.

So what I would say is that first, the leaders that we that we've worked with

were really proactive about working across these generations and being sure to respect the value of both the legacy point of view

and also the beginner's eye.

And we, for example, we worked with hospital that during COVID made the explicit choice

for their for staffing their emergency preparedness committee,

through which they would centralize decisions during during COVID for the hospital.

They made the explicit choice not to just put the seasoned people on the committee

because they knew that that could be that they would probably show similar blind spots

and that there would be a benefit from having the diversity of perspective of the young people.

So they actually picked junior people, even a specific assistance to work with the team to help keep them organized.

And they came up with ways of running communication across the hospital that was more innovative and more useful

than probably what the old guard could have come up on their own.

So that's just one example.

But I think we've heard across our cases that there are many ways in which to empower younger people

and it can also be through structural decisions like choosing to promote

high potentials to a leadership team or even in those leadership team meetings

being proactive about asking their point of view.

And so this gets back to then that the people actually creating the culture or the environment of the workplace

actually have an important role to play in creating that cross-generational collaboration.

I'll stop there.

Can I add a point to that?

I was going to ask you to speak into that a little bit more, Linda, if you could.

Well, and actually one of the things that so in our book what we talk about is how do great leaders drive innovation

and the next line is they don't drive alone.

And so this idea of leadership and I've been at the privilege of chairing the leadership initiative

here at Harper Business School for 25 years.

The view of leadership that most people have is one is I'm the leader, I have a vision.

I need to communicate that vision and inspire people to want to follow me to the future.

And that is very relevant and that still is very important to do.

All of the individuals we studied and as you've heard from my two colleagues,

we studied people who were individual contributors and we certainly studied CEOs.

So the whole gamut is in our book and we wanted to include people in large companies, start-ups, etc.

But what you see about these leaders is that even though they're visionaries,

they understand if you want to build an agile organization that can innovate time and again

it's not about getting people to follow you to the future.

It's about getting people both inside and outside your organization

to want to co-create the future with you.

And the mindset of co-creation is very different from a followership mindset.

And I find that the Gen Zs respond well to co-creation.

It's about how can you and I work together to create that future that we want.

I'm not here to tell you that this is the future.

Even though I have a vision and I could take up all the space,

I actually spend my time architecting an environment that will allow all of us to figure out

what ways can we best contribute to what we're trying to get done collectively.

That doesn't mean everything goes and anything goes.

These leaders tend to be very tough, very exacting and caring.

But when you tell people that they're helping to co-create the future that they'd like to see too,

I think most of us will join that.

Now, many people will feel overwhelmed by the responsibility and a lot of responsibility.

These organizations are ones in which people feel highly accountable.

But what we talk about really are three roles that leaders have to play.

One is architect, the second is Bridger, and the last one is catalyst.

And I'm just going to say very quickly that all of these roles that you have to play as a leader,

it's not about you.

It's about how do you get other people to want to join you?

How do you build partnerships, robust partnerships so people want to innovate with you

to create the future that they care about or the customers that they also want to address?

How do you actually start movements?

What we mean by that is there are lots of different stakeholders.

How do you actually get sort of build coalitions of those stakeholders

so they can work with you to create what you want to do?

So going back to Avatar N, how do these two engineers do this?

I mean, they got to the CEO, no one really, they shot themselves in the CEO's like,

you mean like Star Trek? And they said, yeah, like Star Trek, but without the mass.

But we know that the technology, we can send the five senses across a robot.

That's what an Avatar robot, right?

So how do you do that if you're too injured?

They had to work with X Prize, they've worked with the Jaxa, which is the NASA of Japan.

They've worked with governments to pull together all the different parties' universities,

to create the technology, and then to execute that technology.

And who would have ever thought, these Avatar robots exist.

They're already out there in the world.

They're still in prototype a lot of them.

But again, it's about thinking about, I'm not doing this alone.

I got to figure out, how do I get other people?

How do I create the kind of social connections with people?

Get them excited to want to join me to co-create a future that we all want,

not just something that I'm seeing.

Yeah, rather than the idea of like, you are a cog in the machine

that I've built to help me get where I'm trying to go,

it's more like, how do I build a culture that allows all of us to get where we're all trying to go,

while also accomplishing this sort of north star of a vision?

Yeah, and again, we actually talked more about, and vision is very important.

And if you have the vision, and right now don't we waste people out of the vision

so we know where to go, then that is leading change.

But leading innovation is about the fact that you don't really have the path yet.

You don't know which way to go.

And you know what, what I see that makes me feel, and I've actually written some articles

about how you actually embrace digital natives to help drive, particularly AI,

adoption in companies, and we have some work on that sort of thing as well.

But I think the whole point here is that a lot of what we're facing right now in the world,

very uncertain, lots of, you know, we don't know where all of this is going.

So what do you need to do is figure out how do you really encourage people to want to work together collectively

to move in a direction that really needs the needs of all of us

at the same time of recognizing that we each have different priorities.

We're not, you know, this is not Kumbaya.

So there's going to be that tension going back to what I said earlier about creative abrasion.

But the point is that when you take that kind of stance,

I think, again, I think younger people, frankly, sometimes even more,

I don't like to categorize people than people who've been around a lot

and been, are used to being told what to do.

They actually, they look forward to that embrace it, but they need to understand

they're going to be their guard rails, there's accountability.

And these organizations, really, the leaders make sure that people feel responsible

for delivering what they're supposed to deliver.

Well, I appreciate all of you being willing to take time to join me

and talk a little bit about this on the show.

I want to do one quick rapid fire question for all of you.

We'll start with Jason, then we'll go to Emily, then we'll finish off with Linda.

What is, since you all are very deep into this space, very curious.

Besides genius at scale, because that's a given, if you're listening,

you've got to go pick up a copy of genius at scale.

Besides genius at scale, what is a leadership book, article, YouTube video,

a piece of material, something that you found that you would say absolutely everybody

if they're interested in this topic, they have to read or consume this particular piece.

Start with Jason.

Thank you for asking me, Travis.

Obviously, as you said, we hope everybody buys where he's genius at scale.

And we look forward to hearing your feedback.

To me, there's a book that I'm actually in the middle of reading a second time.

It's called Re-Shuffle, and it's by Sangeep Paul Chaudhary.

Okay.

And he was a previous author of Platform Economics.

And it's the best book that I've ever had.

We've been in AI, going back to IBM for almost 20 years.

You know, IBM Watson.

So I get the questions from my mom, you know, to CEOs about what's the impact of AI

as they're going to take jobs?

And Re-Shuffle is the best book that I've seen that really understands

and explains at a macro level what's going on.

And it starts with, will AI take my job?

It's why it's the wrong question.

And it really looks at the systemic shifts that are going to happen.

That it's very difficult for most of us to see into this future

and what the world's going to look like in few years.

Love it.

Awesome.

Thank you for that, Emily.

Okay.

So I'm going to say, I'm so, I'm inspired by Ranjie Gulati's book.

I think it's called How to Be Bold, the Surprising Science of Courage.

I think Courage is a huge topic.

It cuts across our book as well.

So I think that book offers the, I just think the topic of courage

is something that feels soft, but it can actually be so powerful.

And does point the, these avatar in leaders that we were talking about,

they were junior employees, but they were, they had the courage

to put themselves on the VP of strategies, calendars,

without asking any assistance, just by passing the assistance themselves.

I think things like that take courage.

Absolutely.

Fortune favors the bold.

And it seems like anything great that was ever accomplished started

with somebody who had a little bit of courage.

So I appreciate that recommendation.

Linda.

You know, I, I have to say one of the, the last book that I was a co-author of

was Collective Genius.

And the first chapter is about Ed Katmull.

Ed Katmull was one of the founders of Pixar.

And Ed is, I spoke to him this week, and every time I speak to that man,

I learned so much.

And that, that book is fabulous.

And I think one of the reasons he wrote a second edition.

So I think Creativity Inc by Ed Katmull is a book that just has inspired me

and Ed inspires me.

The other book that I've read a number of books recently,

it's I hate having to pick.

Another one is the, that is a recent book.

And we're going to be doing, truth and advertising,

doing some work marketing with them is the octopus organization.

And this was written by Jana Warner and Phil LaBron.

And these two are written a really good book about how we all need to be,

I don't find the octopus very attractive, but why are organizations

need to be structured more like an octopus?

Yes, there is a center, but each tentacle also can work.

And I think these new structures that we need to build are these new ways of doing work

so that we can take advantage of these new technologies.

I think that book is really very fabulous for that purpose.

But if I had to say one, I would read Ed's book, and then I would,

there's so many others, so good name.

So Emily, that's why I think we're hesitating.

I think Jason is reading more than we are, but it needs to ask us which book.

But the octopus organization is a, is a recent book.

It just was published a little while ago.

Ed Katenel's book, he wrote a first edition.

But after he read all the stories about Steve Jobs that were written,

and everybody in the world says no one knows Steve Jobs better than Ed.

But you need to know Ed.

You need the secret sauce.

Yep.

Love it.

That's why I asked the question.

You always get these super sauce books from people who are deep in the weeds like you guys.

So I had to ask the question, I apologize.

This is my selfish question for the day.

Thank you.

Thank you for appeasing that.

And definitely, I'm glad you asked.

You know, you may think of one Travis that I think especially for your audience.

It's called selling is hard.

Buying is even harder.

It is like the Bible to flipping legacy kind of transactional selling on its head.

Okay.

And bringing empathy to go to market by understanding and walking in the shoes of the people

that you're trying to serve.

And that's another one that went viral at places like Salesforce and other commercially driven organizations.

Yeah.

Love it.

I appreciate the perspective.

And I will add these to my reading list, which is extensive if you guys can imagine.

So thank you so much for taking the time.

Genius at scale is the book that these three have been working on that just came out into the world.

I highly, highly recommend you go pick up a copy of this.

This is a beautiful thing about books as that's why I always say on the show.

If you're listening, you know, I say this all the time.

When we recommend a book, just pick up a copy and put it on your list.

Because people like this take their entire careers and dedicate them to learning about topics.

And then put it into like a 200, 300 page book that you can download their information from

without having to live their entire 40 years of experience doing the things that they're doing.

So stop waiting on the sidelines.

Pick up a copy of Genius at scale right now.

I know you will not regret that.

Linda, Jason, Emily, I appreciate you all.

Thank you so much for taking the time.

I do not miss it.

Jason, Emily, I appreciate you all.

Thank you so much for taking the time.

I do not take it for granted.

I know you're all very busy people.

Everybody else listening.

Remember, money only solves your money problems.

But it's a little bit easier to solve the rest of your problems with money in the bank.

So let's solve that problem first.

Here on The Travis Makes Money Podcast.

Thanks for tuning in.

Catch you next time.

Peace.