Iran war: What's life like inside Iran?

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1:01The fifth floor is the fifth floor at the heart of global storytelling with BBC journalists from all around the world. I'm your host, Farnak Amity. The United States and Israel have now been at war with Iran for two weeks, since 28th of February. Supreme leader Ali Hamineyi who ruled Iran for over 40 years was killed on the first day of the war. There have also been over 1200 civilian deaths in Iran, including 168 mostly children at a girl's school in Minab, central Iran. Missile strikes have been carried out across the country with homes, hospitals, airports and oil facilities, all being struck alongside

2:04military and Islamic revolutionary guard courts, facilities and infrastructure. For my Iranian colleagues at BBC Persian reporting on the war from outside of the country has been incredibly difficult. The internet has been shot down on the 19 million people living inside Iran, making it difficult for people to get information on what is happening around them and which locations are being hit. It is also extremely difficult for Iranians outside the country to contact those inside. Today, I'm joined by Taraneh Fataleyan and Runche Habib Zadeh, a BBC Persian and Sadrass Nasadi, who monitors Iranian media for BBC Monitoring. Welcome, guys. Zidafat Floor is great to have you as always. So, you know, I'm BBC Persian. How are you guys getting information from people inside Iran and how are they sending you information? It's incredibly difficult, more difficult than

3:07any other time that Iran has been in turmoil because the regime has shot down the internet from the first day of the war, but people are still finding ways to bypass the restrictions and get connected to the internet. But it's extremely expensive and extremely difficult and not available to everyone. They don't send us long videos or they don't send us any videos at all because they don't want to use up their internet that they bought with such an extortion at price. So, they send us really short videos that are incredibly difficult to verify. How are people sending it to you? How are they finding a way to get this information to you guys? I'm in contact with some tech savvy Gen Z people inside the country who have managed to share their stalling, which is satellite internet with others, but on stalling because you have to be near where the modem is and the authorities have been trying to find out who's using them and using it in Iran can lead to up to two years imprisonment. And that's like the official law.

4:12So, it's very difficult, but some people, like during the past protests, they have been using stallings, but they haven't used it just for themselves, but this time they have managed to make some ports, make some connections to share it with other people as well. And some of them are selling it to other people with some very expensive prices, like it's like one million toman for one gigabyte, which is like around six dollars and like when you convert it. And because the average salary in Iran is around two hundred to three hundred per month. It's a hefty price and three hundred dollars per month. It's a hefty price for people to afford just to have one gigabyte of internet and not everyone can have access to it. Especially at its time that people are not really working. Businesses are not functioning at the moment. And actually it's been shot down almost since January. Yes, one day. Because there was because of the protests. Can you just give us Iran down of how long it's been shot down? How this time is a bit different from what was happening

5:14in January? Well, in January, we had the nationwide protests. The eighth and ninth January is when the mass killings happened. Iran went dark. Internet was shot down for days after that. And images were coming very, very slowly. And then that's when we saw pictures of more ex-pictures of body bags scattered everywhere, blood in street. So after that, internet has been patchy. And then when the war broke, Iran went dark again. And what about inside Iran? How are people getting, giving each other information? I guess you have kind of a picture of how they're doing that. There are some domestic apps in Iran, which we don't know how safe they are for people to use inside and outside because Iran has a system of digital surveillance and they monitor what people pose, what people do online. And these domestic apps seem to be somehow functioning for

6:16the people inside and they have to use them because there are no other ways of connectivity right now. So they call each other, they take each other and they can like getting touched with why are these domestic apps? But at the same time, it's also like really, really difficult for them to get in touch with the outside world, as I said, because of the internet. And this is not the first time that internet has been caught up every time and unrest happens in Iran. The war happens like we saw with the 12-day war back in June with Iran and Israel. Same pattern has happened. They have shut down the internet to control the flow of information that is being sent out. And it's making everything so difficult. We see like very few videos, very few photos. And also we have to like go through them one by one and see how what we can verify and what we can see. And the shorter the video is the more chances that it's AI generated. And this wave of AI generated content this time, they're in this war, has never happened ever. Yeah, I've noticed that as well.

7:17Exactly. And it's not just internet leaking out. They're stopping information from getting in the country as well. That is it. It's like people are in the dark service. You're nodding as well. You agree? Yeah, definitely. Actually, when we take a look at the bigger picture, what we understand within these two most recent periods of internet shutdown, what is clear to us is the fact that we are dealing with a regime whose rule has been characterized by paranoia and insecurity. Meaning that the fear about its own citizens, and as Wontje mentioned, the flow of information getting outside to the outside world has always been present there. And it's not new. It's been there since the establishment of the Islamic Republic in 1979. This constant fear of about imminent collapse, the fact that your own people will rise up against you, the fact that the outside world could be watching you, what you are doing there. So this fear is always there

8:20and it defines every single move of this regime. And now the background of the protests and the fact that they're waging a war against Israel and the United States to militarily superior powers one in the region, the other, the superpower of the world, the fact that people on the ground filming the moment when a missile hits, for example, an IRGC-based, that's humiliation. So they won't allow this to happen. That's the one thing. And on the other hand, what we are hearing from the ground is the fact that most people are complaining, not just about the bombardment, but the fact that there is another war being waged on the ground. It's the constant repression on a daily basis happening with all the checkpoints, with the besiege militia, intimidating people, inspecting their vehicles, inspecting their homes, checking even their personal pictures on their videos. So again, this paranoia is always there and people are complaining about the reality,

9:26the unfortunate reality that they're trapped between these two conflicts. One is coming from the above with the strikes, the other is the regime itself, which is repressing its own people. What about domestic journalists? What is happening to them? I know you are monitoring the Iranian media. Do you see anything coming? Not really, because what we are seeing right now is the regime trying to fully control the narrative. By shutting down the internet, they have pretty much succeeded in that project. They are bombarding people's phone with government messages, threatening them, and then the state TV is constantly running programs and inviting hardline pandits, trying to offer a totally different image of what is happening in this war. What about your papers? They have been publishing papers. Those papers are all state-affiliated,

10:27even their forms papers currently are following the official line, and the journalist whom we are seeing on social media are the ones mostly affiliated with the regime and spreading the same propaganda, which the regime wants. Independent journalism is absolutely a massive challenge. I think it's safe to say that the regime is strictly controlling the narrative and really trying to push its propaganda, not only to the world, but to its own people as well. That's why a lot of people don't really know what is happening because they're only access right now for many of them is Iranian state media because they jam the satellites as well, so they don't have access to BBC Persian, they don't have access to other independent media abroad. It must be a very confusing time to be inside Iran at the moment. But in BBC Persian, you do get people who message you,

11:29who send you footed. When you get to talk to people inside Iran, what are they saying? So it's not just people that send us footed. It's my like, school friends that I've known since I was six, and she's very tech savvy as well, and she's been in touch with me, and she's just telling me about her daily life, she's journaling it, and she was telling me today that because of the stress and the pressure she's been under, she's been stuck at home, she wanted to go out for a walk today, and then she heard the missiles coming, and she couldn't go out. And I really feel for her, this is a person that I grew up with, that I know so much about, and it's very stressful for me, but most importantly for them and their family, and that they feel stuck there. Absolutely. What else are you getting? Again, who are you hearing from mostly? I've never seen the Iranian online society so polarized. People are very conflicted, people who message us. A lot of them are scared, but they say that they're more scared of

12:36this regime staying put after the war than the war itself. For some of them, it's like, I heard this so many times that I'd rather die by American bombs than in Iranian regime by torture. Some people are sending us messages, screenshots of these threatening messages that the regime is sending them every single day, telling them that we're going to kill you, we're going to kill a family, you're going to be prosecuted if you cooperate with the enemy, and this is a very vague, intentionally ambiguous term, like sending information to us could be deemed as cooperating with the enemy. So they are scared, a lot of them, but so many of them say that they would rather just set it out and they're hoping for better days after this war. What about the other side? You said it's a very polarized discourse. What about the other side?

13:40What is the other side saying? The other side want it over their scared. They don't want, they're worried about the infrastructure, they're worried about the lives of people that are being taken right now, they're worried about the culture, there's some UNESCO protected size that were damaged, they're worried about that as well. Yeah, I feel it as well when I go online, I feel like it's a really polarized, very tense, you know. An opinion of some people has changed ever since the war started, because I've been keeping in touch daily as much as I can with them. Some of them are expecting that the death of Iranian supreme leader on the first day, the war would end and everything would just be the regime change will happen and everything will be back to a good place, but that was in the case, the bombing hasn't stopped and it's continuing, and also the thing is true state media and the people that they interview and the people that they show that has

14:41become the mainstream narrative, and we are not hearing that much voices from on the ground as we would like to hear. Exactly, that is the thing that, you know, this puzzle has missing pieces and that is one of the main pieces, because you're not really hearing what people inside Iran are thinking, we don't know. I love that there are outside Iran as well. Yeah, exactly outside of Iran as well, yeah. So, when this war started, Iranians, do they actually have a sense of why this is happening? Most Iranians, Cyrus. I mean, for nearly half a century we have had a radical revolutionary regime, which has been challenging its own neighbors, Israel, the United States, shouting death against them, trying to spread this revolutionary ideology throughout the region. This has been the fundamental ideology, and most of the people, when you talk to them, they would say this war was inevitable.

15:47And apart from that, we should not forget the key factor behind the recent war, as my colleagues just mentioned, the issue of the protests, the unrest. Many people would argue that the United States would not possibly think of attacking Iran if there was not the recent protests. And the bloodshed. Yeah, and the bloodshed and the popular discontent within Iran, because when you see a regime which lacks that popularity, you have enough motivation and, in fact, encouragement to strike them. If the regime was popular enough, the United States would have never gone for this. And the repression which has been going on is still there, only two days ago we had the police chief coming on television, talking to the people before the camera, and he couldn't be more explicit, directly telling the people that this time around, if you come to the streets and follow the enemy and protest against the Islamic Republic, you will not be treated as protesters.

16:51You will be treated as enemies, and we have the order to shoot. So even in the previous round of protests, we never had such warnings. They even denied shooting people, blaming it on infiltration from Israel and the United States. This time around, they have just, yeah, they're very open about it, warning the people. And that's why many people would prefer to allow this to get to some point, but with a result that ends this regime, because they believe that this repression cannot go on forever. Right now, there are traps between the bombardment and the repression, and they prefer this to come to a conclusion, but that conclusion should be regime change. Other than that, if they stay in power, they will be more hardened, more radical, and more rounds of crackdown, bloodier crackdowns is the way to the Iranian people. That's understandable. When you talk to people, were people expecting the reaction that the Islamic Republic showed

17:58after the bombings, for instance, that they started bombing neighboring countries, and Emirates were in Dubai, were they expecting it? Was it something that they knew it was going to happen? I think they were expecting it, because Iran had said repeatedly that they're going to do it, and if the U.S. and Israel attacked, they're going to attack U.S. bases in the region. That's what late Iranian supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Homin had said. So there was an expectation of that, and this is a pattern that has been repeating during the 12-day war as well. This time as well, Iran and the U.S. were in the middle of the nuclear negotiations, and an attack happened. And Iran has been accusing the U.S. of like tricking them, of not being faithful in their promises, but we don't know, I mean, obviously, that's what Iran is saying. But yes, people were expecting it, but this is a sentiment that I'm getting from just some limited people inside the country, but at the same time, from what we are seeing on state media, the mood from some dose of support,

19:01establishment is very much jubilant. They're happy that Iran is attacking U.S. bases in the region. And what is the rationale of the regime for attacking neighboring countries? What do they say? They are saying that they're attacking the bases of the U.S. in the region, not attacking the countries themselves, as we saw today in a televised message by Iran's new supreme leader, Mojtaba Homin AI, who has also said that, but he has said that the attacks will continue on U.S. bases in the region. We have a very superior power with the strongest military in the world, attacking Iran. So Iran is using as many pressure tools as possible to make it as costly as possible for the United States. And whatever is within its range of missiles, just to throw these missiles and drones at those targets, so the global economy faces jitters, faces shocks, and at some point, the United States will be under enough pressure to pull back and stop

20:03this one. So what are people talking about? What are the options? Is there talk about maybe the regime surrendering? Something happening, I don't know. Yeah, they are. I see a story campaign on Instagram that addressed the regime people are saying, why are you not surrendering? They're just like they're calling for a regime to hand over the power. So all their damage, all the bombing will stop. But the thing is, like about people taking to street again when their opportunities, right, as like some people are saying, and as the U.S. are saying, people saw what happened in January. I mean, the bloodshed worked. Killing thousands of thousands of people, worked. People stopped going to the streets because they knew that the regime would kill them. They knew that they would meet guns, gunfire. So I don't know how people will take to streets again knowing that this will, the exact same thing will happen again. What about you? You talk to the

21:06younger generation who were on the streets actually two months ago in January. What are they saying? Their opinion is very much divided, and this is just based on some people that I'm talking to, but at the same time, some of them are worried that the U.S. won't finish the job of the establishment and will leave them alone. That's what they have been fearing. And they are saying, like, if a call for protests happen, we will come out and we will do it as long as the U.S. and Israel help us. This is the sentiment that I'm getting from some of the people who have participated in the protests. Some of them are saying that we won't come out, and we have seen what happened in Jan, and we are not willing for it to happen again, the bloodshed to happen again, because we love our lives. But some of them are saying that this is the risk that we are willing to take. And last night, we saw that Iranian outlets reported that some of the besieged militia and IRGC bases were targeted in Tehran, and I was asking my friends about the reaction to it, some of the people in their 20s and 30s in Tehran and capital, and they said that was the

22:08best news ever. That has been the reaction, but these are some just limited people, as I said. It's very hard to get a diverse set of voices from inside Iran. So many different emotions. Exactly. You're listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service. You can post your job to some job board, but then all you can do is hope the right person comes along, which is why you should try Zip Recruiter for free at ziprecruiter.com slash zip. Zip Recruiter doesn't depend on candidates finding you. It finds them for you. It's powerful technology identifies people with the right experience and actively invites them

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24:09With Zip Recruiter, you can forget your frustrations because we find the right people for your roles fast, which is our absolute favorite F word. In fact, four out of five employers who post on Zip Recruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Fantastic. So whether you need to hire four, 40, or 400 people, get ready to meet first rate talent. Just go to ziprecruiter.com slash zip to try Zip Recruiter for free. Don't forget that's ziprecruiter.com slash zip. Finally, that ziprecruiter.com slash zip. This is the fifth floor and I find I can be deep. So Sarah Bass, the U.S. President, Donald Trump, has a mentioned different Kurdish groups in Iran. Could you just explain who these Kurdish groups are? To give you some context, I would say the Kurds are one of the most important ethnic minorities in Iran, making up more than 10% of the Iranian population.

25:11Kurds are, in fact, the ethnic group with the longest history of organized opposition and militancy against not only the Islamic Republic, but before the revolution. They are considered as the sole opposition group with a powerful organization both inside Iran, across the border, in Iraq, and in the diaspora. There has been a lot of consideration and sense of consciousness among the Kurds because history has proven that the Kurds at different junctures of history have been, in fact, used for different political purposes because of the bravery in the fight, for instance, in the case of ISIS, in Syria, and again, during the reign of Saddam Hussein, in Iraq, and after the revolution in Iran. But this history has always been filled with betrayal. When the political agenda has been served,

26:15the United States or other Western powers have pulled back and left them high and dry. Currently, the other argument is that this is a very fleeting opportunity, an open window for the Kurds to take advantage, to take good advantage of the situation after such a long history of repression. And this is the moment for them to finally get their struggle at some point to achieve the right to self-determination. The argument is quite fluid right now among the Kurdish political parties, but only a few days before the outbreak of the war, we had this coalition of five Kurdish groups who came together and put aside their differences issued as a statement and called for the end of the regime. So, the regime has introduced much tabo Khomeini, the son of Ali Khomeini, who was killed a couple of weeks ago, as the new Supreme Leader. What do we know about him?

27:20Who is much tabo Khomeini? I guess we don't really know much about him. We know some things about him. These 56, he has been as the man seen as a man in shadow, he has been seeing as having influence over Iran military, over the IRGC, over different parts of Iran, but he has never held an official post in Islamic Republic. And today, the message was very strange to some people that have been talking to you. Because for the first time, how long ago did they announce him as the news? So, it was around four days ago that they announced the first announcement. And this is the first announcement, first message that we have from him. And we haven't seen him in photos or videos or anything on state media since his succession. And even like before that, the videos on photos of him were very scarce. And we don't know much about him, but some fear, some inside the country that I've been talking to fear that he's going to be exact replica of his father and going to follow his hard-line policies as well. And in the message today, it was somehow obvious. What was the message?

28:26The message was that Iran is going to control straight off Hormuz. Iran is going to avenge those who have been killed recently during the war. And he also said that Iran will continue attacking US bases in the region. But one very interesting thing about his message that I noticed was that he was made aware that he has become the supreme leader to state TV. And that was very confusing to me because you are like the supreme leader of the country. And Iran state TV has referred to him as lettering of war. And that has led to speculation that he might be injured. There's a lot of rumors around there. Lots of rumors because we are seeing some reports that his wife has been killed. And that has been the case. But we don't know yet if he's injured or not Reuters, news agency has cited an unnamed Iranian official that he has been injured, lightly injured. But we don't know yet. But the fact that a news presenter today on state TV read a message by him and he didn't appear, that has led to so many discussions. And Israel

29:33Israeli defense forces have said that they're going to target whoever comes in place of the late Ayatollah Ali Hamane. So he might be there speculations that he might be in a safe place. Thank you so much for this discussion. You're doing really important. Keep it up. Thanks for having me. Thank you to Tarane Fatalyan and Once Habibi Azad of BBC Persian and Sarbas Nazari, Home Monitor's Iranian Media for BBC Monitoring. If you're a regular listener to the fifth floor, it's great to have you back. If you're just cashing the program for the first time, I shall let you know that the fifth floor is at the heart of global storytelling on the BBC World Service, bringing you the best stories from BBC journalists from all over the world. Before everyone just believed what they got from the authorities, but to see us actually speaking to these leaders holding them to account, a lot of people understood that the authorities actually saying different things,

30:34and in most cases, they actually also don't even have the facts. Journalists from the BBC's 43 language services are here to help you make sense of the world. His quote in a tug of war between uncompromising demands of his Islamist constituency and demands of governing a diverse society. So he's torn between those two tendencies to excite your curiosity. You know that being Venezuela, we kept in the central bank, one of the swords that Bolivar received from Peru. This sword is made with silver, but also gold and has a lot of jewels. And even when I was a kid, I was like, this is weird because if he had this, why he died for. And to get to grips with the facts behind the headlines.

31:34Of course, internet was very, very bright and exciting than 30 years ago, 30 some years ago. It was going to be the perfect vehicle of democracy, perfect vehicle of pluralism where it's decentralized by design, by design. Nobody can control it. But of course, the governments always find a way, especially with massive resources they have. There are still promises and hopes for the future that there will be less capabilities for governments to restrict people in Iran and any other countries. That last voice you heard was my colleague, Haudini Li of BBC Persian. And right now, I would like to remind you about the work of Haudi and all his colleagues at BBC Persian, which is the Persian language service of the BBC News. And it's used by 24 million people around the world, the majority of them in Iran, despite being blocked and routinely jammed by Iranian authorities.

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