Is 10X Season Here?🔥Bitwise Matt Hougan INTERVIEW

0:00Could Robin Hood be starting a bull run right now? We're gonna be breaking that down for you guys. A lot is happening. I wanna thank our sponsor today, and that is Tangem, where you guys can get into full self-custy. Very easy to do, your secure crypto hardware wallet. And one of the things about Tangem, that I think a lot of people misunderstand with self-custy is the ease of use. And also the ease of being able to get this setup for you. It's like a credit card, works with your phone, always present, make sure to get a three card set, so you've got a backup, but you guys of course can use our link down below. It's gonna give you a 10% discount. And they also have several offers from time to time. So always check what's going on over there on the website. This is the self-custy to use. So make sure and check it out, tell them we sent you. I'm gonna start with a clip of Matt Hogan, and then we're gonna bring him on live, but I wanna go with this clip first. Take a look. That's just not true. I mean, just look at that chart, one of the most beautiful charts in finance. Eventually the market will wake up to this reality,

1:00and it's going to be DeFi Summer 2.0, and I think that will 10X usage. DeFi Summer 2.0, here we are. There you go. You called it, Matt, I have to give you the credit. Even though you were wrong, 10X season had not hit. In fact, if you look at Uniswa, it looks more like 20X right there. So in terms of active address is jumping to 1.2 million. Of course, all of this being driven by what's happening on Robinhood chain, and now we're seeing an absolute, you know, barn burn in the market. Where do you think Uniswa Peds from here? We kinda talked about that pre-show, but what does this mean for Uniswa? What does this mean for Robinhood? Kind of give me your thesis there. Yeah, you know, the reason I was excited about the number of transactions was that you could believe in DeFi working. It proved itself through multiple bear market cycles. It hadn't gone away, it'd strengthened, it'd worked. And if we got the right regulatory setup, we got the right institutional adoption,

2:02you could see it scaled dramatically. That's what we've seen on Robinhood chain. Obviously, that's been hugely beneficial for Uniswa. We're now burning something like 120, you know, $130 million in fees on an annualized run rate basis. That's probably an outdated figure. Maybe we're up to 200 million, I don't know. I think this is just the start. And I think that's true for two reasons. One, I think Robinhood chain is just going to continue to grow from here. We're very early in the penetration. I don't think it's being adopted. Certainly not by US users. I still think it's early in its penetration into the world's mind share. So from that perspective alone, I think Uniswa has substantial growth just from Robinhood chain. But the thing outside that is every Robinhood competitor has to be looking at what's going on at Hood and saying they just launched a billion dollar business in the span of a few months, shouldn't we be doing something too? And the unique thing that Robinhood did

3:02was that they're going to market included things like Uniswa, included things like Morpho, included things like Airdrome. And so if we start to see that replicating across other institutional settings, you know, could we 10x again? I'm not sure. But I don't think it's been built into the price of Uniswa, but still a $5 billion asset or something. That seems off by an order of magnitude to me. So I'm still very optimistic on where Uniswa goes from here. So Uniswa obviously a big part of how Robinhood chain is working and kind of see the chart right there. Up 43%. This is just since the end of July. So you look at this kind of growth. And remember, Robinhood had eclipsed right here, but this is the thing that, you know, I think a lot of people missed. And I was one of the people that kind of, I won't say pressured them, but I was very vocal in saying, we need to launch faster. We need to get more products out, all these things, because Vlad and the team, they were promising a lot. And I kind of thought, well, there's no movement.

4:03And then all of a sudden, now you see why there was no movement, because all these strategies were being put in place, all these simultaneously almost launching at the same time in the sense of growth. So the opportunity is super for sure. And I think you're right. I think the key here is going to be exponential growth coming in, inbound for hood and hood chain. So lots of look at there. I want to go over to a clip here, because this is Bloomberg talking about your sole ETF. Let's cut to that one. Another chart that looks very similar to that is Solana, also up more than 40% in the past month, as institutional money pours in. Solana just had its best week of inflows of the year last week. And if you look at the ETF tied to it, the bitwise Solana sticking ETF, crossing $1 billion in assets under management less than one year since its launch. One year, $1 billion, congratulations. I'm looking at Eric Balsunis. He's talking about this in terms of the bitwise ETF. First of all, where do you think this goes from here? I mean, this is exponential growth within the Solana.

5:07Is there more appetite here? Well, I think there's a lot more appetite. You have to think about those inflows that Balsunis is calling out there. You know, $1.7 billion of inflows. Given that we were in a bear market, obviously, if this flips to a bull market, which many of us think we are still in the early stages of that, and you have people looking for ways to invest in tokenization, I think this could be a multi-billion dollar ETF. Interesting. I'm not guaranteeing that, of course, I could be wrong. But we hear a lot of demand from wealth managers, from traditional investors, how do I play the growth of tokenization? And there are many ways to answer that hood is one way to answer that. But another way to answer that is the L ones on which this is taking place. And certainly equity tokenization, tokenized stocks, is largely a Solana-based phenomenon at this point. And there's reasons to believe it will be a leader in that space. So we think there'll be substantial demand for this ETF as we accelerate into this bull market

6:08that will maybe make the initial demand look relatively small in scale. Man, the initial demand, small in scale, that's something to think about when you look at Solana as a whole, especially in terms of growth opportunity here. And it is one of those out there. What do you think about staking ETFs in general in comparison how this market would respond to those? Yeah, I mean, broadly, I think people want to stake their Solana. And the case of Solana, you're talking about multiple percentage points that you can earn. And I think also there's this movement to use institutional custody, which is a big deal. So I'm bullish on them generally. Yeah. I want to go to a clip here. This is Tom Lee talking about the September setup. And I want to see if you agree with this. Take a look. People are edging into September cautious, because markets are down, oils up, yields are up. And people are talking about the seasonality. I'm going to be contrarian.

7:08And I think this is a setup for actually September to be a strong month for stocks. Why? Well, I think one is that the inflation fears are likely to quell this month. We have the job support on Friday. Next week is August's CPI. And then we have, of course, the FOMC rate decision in September. I think the sequence of those events is going to show inflation is weakening. And I think the odds of September hike might actually drop to zero. All right. So there you have it. You've got Tom Lee, very bullish for September. First of all, do you agree with him? Well, I mean, he seemed to call today's rally. Right? Today's rally is all about rate expectations coming down. I do generally agree with him. I don't think rates are a story right now. I think we're in the great muddle, where we're going to drift sideways. And we're going to periodically expect rate increases and periodically expect rate cuts. But rates will be about where they are in a handful of months. I think the story is more on the fiscal side. I think there's a lot of bull cases for Bitcoin.

8:11But yeah, there you go. Look, I think this is, we're in something that looks more like the Greenspan Fed era, where rates were relatively bounded for a sustained period of time. But I do think, look, Tom called it right. I think he literally called today's rally. This is why we're rallying today. I'm relatively optimistic going into the end of the year. You know, it's very interesting to me, because Trump has been on record just the other day in the old office. He was asked, point blank, you know, what do you think is going to happen here next week in the FOMC? What happens if they raise rates? He says, hey, we have the lowest interest rates world. Why do he do what he needs to do? And you go into just what it was looking like yesterday, September 6th. At 6am, we were at a 59% and then, of course, all of this fell through and boom right there. It just started to drop and the market, of course, responded. So now, no change in order. Almost a flip from where we are in the beginning of the week.

9:12Why and how do you think this happens? Well, I think it's part and parcel of the Worsh Fed, right? In the Pau Fed, we talked about four guidance. We had the dot plots. We had expectations. Worsh came in and said, will be data dependent and driven by what's going on in the market. And what that means is, as more market signals come in, you can see this data flip. I think the real story on inflation is it's slightly elevated. It's slightly coming down, but it's a bumpy road. And I expect that will continue into the future. That's why I think this is the great model. That's why I think Worsh basically is going to sit on his hands for a long period of time until you get an overwhelming data signal. But that's the era we're in. We're in a data-driven Fed. And so every data point is going to adjust those expectations. But I think for an investor, the thing to focus on is we're going to be in this like three zone for a while. The story isn't going to be rates.

10:13It's going to occupy headlines. It's going to get a lot of coverage. But the story isn't going to be rates. It's, do we see more interventions from Besson and the Treasury side? Do we see more action in Japan? I actually think that's where the macro focus is. And that's right now pushing in a variable-ish direction for Bitcoin. Yeah. Well, and you've got other things that are kind of leaning into what's going on in crypto. You've got the SEC chair, Paul Atkins, saying, hey, yes, we think that we're headed for a Senate vote. Coming on the 15th, that's just here what 10 days away it feels like. When you look at that right now, especially with alignment, because the polymarket is still very negative on this in terms of getting through for Cloture, what's your position right now? Are you still very positive? Yeah. Well, I'm positive on it from a market signal. I think the probability is probably lower than 50%. But as you indicated, the consensus in the market is it ain't happening. So the market is priced it in as not happening. Therefore, it's either a non-event if it fails

11:16or an extraordinary positive catalyst, an upside surprise. It's like going into an earnings event, expecting no earnings or very low earnings. And you only have the potential for a positive upside catalyst. I think crypto is fine in either scenario. If we don't get clarity, Atkins will continue to act in the way that he has dripping new rules every few weeks that define this outside of the clarity bounds. If we get clarity, I think it's a runaway bull market and we're quickly back up towards six figure Bitcoin, substantially higher ETH, and much higher D5 prices. Yeah, for sure. Well, one of the things that is starting to kind of lead in that direction is what the SEC is doing on their 24 hour trading round table. This, of course, setting up right now. And it looks to be kind of the who's who. They're going to kind of break it down into three different panels. They've got one that's going to be looking at 24 hour trading as an overall strategy. They're going to have the resiliency side of it.

12:18That's panel two. And then panel three is talking about where do we go from here. When you look at what the SEC is doing when the idea of what we could be seeing in the US very soon, is that 24-7 trading, this seems to be like they already have a roadmap. I think there's two things that are fake to complete. And it tells you everything about how you should be positioning your portfolio. The first is regardless of what happens on the Clarity Act, the SEC is going to find a way to move us to a tokenized 24-7 in 365 trading environment. Atkins has said, this is the biggest upgrade in how financial markets work since we went from floor-based trading to digital trading. I think that he wants this to be his legacy that he moved us into this modern world of instant settlement in 24-7 trading. I think that is going to happen regardless. And the second is related to that, which is, look, the world is moving to tokenized rails.

13:19It may take six months. It may take two years. It may take three years. But we're going to move to a world where all assets are tokenized, and they are all traded on blockchain-based rails. What I think that agenda points out is the exact specifics of how that happens are still a little bit unclear. What does that mean as an investor? That means that making anyone's singular bet is probably relatively risky, saying it's going to happen exactly this way. I'm going to put all my chips only on Solana, and that's going to be it. That's probably risky. A safer approach is to say innovators are going to win on this space. I want to own some hood. I want to own some Solana. I want to own some Uniswap. I want to own some Ethereum. That's a mega trend. That's a super cycle that I want to get behind. I think investors who take that diversified approach have probably a great chance of success. Investors who are picking and choosing, you should know that they're still in certainty and exactly how this happens and who the winners are, but make no mistake, it's going to happen.

14:20That's what the market is telling you. Your tweet right here, people are making two compounding mistakes when evaluating DeFi. Market size one, people think it's kind of the crypto market size. You're saying, no, it's $500 trillion asset market. And then the value capture, people think they've maximized the fee gen when they're really just getting going. So I think everybody is now starting to wake up to this. The more I talk to fairly sophisticated investors, they're already there, but even new people coming into the market understanding what this means, they're starting to get the picture here. Art, first of all, do you think we are, are vaults kind of an easier adoption product for those kinds of investors? I think they're, I do agree with you that they're starting to get the picture, that what's happening on this crypto side is just sort of fintech 2.0. And that these are real entities with real revenue and they're attacking real markets and the opportunity is very scalable.

15:21I think, specifically to things like vaults and I know we want to talk about ATP's, I think you're seeing people productize this in a way that makes it readable for investors. It's one thing to say, they're these on-chain credits which you can go and do your due diligence on and do your own credit analysis and evaluate and allocate to them. That's probably outside the bounds of what most people want to do. What a vault does is an institutional manager like Bitwise will do the due diligence, will evaluate the credit, will evaluate the smart contracts, will set up rules and then allow you to access those yields without requiring you to be on the front lines of curating those exact exposures. Look, that's how this market mature is. First, you do it in a raw sense, you make those assets available and then you have curators on top of that who do the due diligence work that you want to outsource to package them together and deliver the exposure you want. I do think we're gonna see more and more of that in the future.

16:23Okay, so with all of that happening, you've got automated tokenized stock portfolios. You guys have wrote the ATP's, have rolled out the likelihood of this, first of all, beginning, give us kind of a framework where you see this heading from here and some of the key points. I think you outlined a couple of them there, but can you go further? I'm really bullish on automated token portfolios. For what it's worth, what those are is a firm will create a model like Bitwise capturing a theme in the market. It could be robotics, it could be cyber defense, it could be a narrow theme like Chinese robotics, create a model and then individual users can subscribe to that model and the stocks in that model will be automatically purchased in their individual portfolios and their wallets. I think this is how asset management will work in the future. If you think about what asset management is today, you have an asset manager, creates a legal fund vehicle with a fund board

17:24that holds custody, millions of investors deposit their money into this single pooled vehicle, and then you manage that vehicle. There's a lot of junk in that process. What an ATP is is it used tokenized stocks, it uses smart contract technology to just remove all that junk. What you want is exposure to robotics, professionally managed portfolio or guided portfolios, constructed portfolios that you can subscribe to without all the junk in the middle. So where do I think this goes? I think there's gonna be literally trillions of dollars in ATP's at some point in the future. Obviously we're about one week in, right? One week into ETFs, no one knew what they were. In fact, it took 10, 15 years for ETFs to really take off. I think ATP's are that style opportunity. I think it's how people are going to access asset management in traditional vehicles. And I think you'll see a lot of innovation from firms like Bitwise in terms of what we can do in ATP's,

18:24including some stuff, Paul that we can't do in the ETFs because this is a more flexible lightweight wrapper. Yeah, I think this is gonna be an interesting model going for it because as we see how these might work, the opportunities seem to be much greater, at least to the upside, especially as the market starts to mature with digital assets. I think there's gonna be incredible opportunities to finally tune themes of things that combine crypto assets and equities or perps and assets. Look again, I think this is a major way on how we're seeing how asset management is gonna work in this tokenized age. They're gonna be vaults, they're gonna be ATP's. There'll probably be a few other vehicles that make tokenized assets readable to end investors. But make no mistake, I think it's gonna be a multi-trillion dollar market. That's one of the reasons why Bitwise is excited to be an early pioneer in this space. Speaking of vaults, I'm looking here at the Bitwise vault on Morpho. You can kind of see the comparison here with Eath and Base.

19:28You look over on Jupe. You can kind of see the Athena Bitwise also. This total supply kept up at around 500 million. Why the cap here? Because now it's growing on Solano. Yeah. Why cap? On any of these vaults, you have to think about the available exposure that you can get, right? You're not an infinite pool of capital. If you take this to Infinity Paul, you can imagine, could we do 10 trillion dollars in this vault? We definitely couldn't. There isn't that exposure. So you need to style it like that. But we're very excited to continue to roll out these vaults. We launched the Pappy Vault Premium APY on Morpho, which holds real world asset exposure. That's the interesting thing here. It's not sort of fictional points-based yield. If you look at something like Pappy, what you're talking about is getting exposure to cross-border finance. You're getting exposure to GPU rentals. You're getting exposure to yields coming out of Helox. Those are very traditional credits,

20:29but they can be packaged into this on-chain format made available via a smart contract. I think it's a beautiful example of how traditional finance and on-chain finance come together. Now, we've already seen a few million dollars flow into that. It's been pretty great. Using a gourub there on the stablecoin, you can kind of see the breakdown here by Bitwise, which is interesting when you look at how you guys are doing this. First of all, real world assets. What is backing this up when you say real world asset? What kind of real world asset would that be? Yeah, things like yields coming out of home equity loans. You don't get much more real than that. Part of this exposure is into Helox provided by Figure. Things like cross-border finance from human PST. Cross-border finance is a massive industry globally. We can package that up and deliver that in a vault-lice setting. That's how you're able to get yields that are above

21:32short-term treasury yields, even for over-clateralized positions, because you're accessing these very real world yields that won't go away. I think that's why it's appealing in the market. So many yields across the history of crypto have been fictional, fleeting, and fake. And that's gotten crypto into a lot of problems. It's really nice that we're at the point now that we're talking about things like home equity lines of credit, which is one of the most traditional sources of yield in the markets. And we're able to package that in a tokenized or a vault-lice factor. I think it's an example of where this whole thing is going and why to get to one of the earlier tweets you showed, this is not a $2 trillion market. This is a $500 trillion market. That's the change that people need to wrap their heads around. We're not talking about crypto only NFTs, meme coins, those have their place. But we're talking about home equity loans, mortgages, cross-border finance, these enormous markets.

22:35And that's just where at the early edge of that, but it's why I'm so bullish on the entire ecosystem. When, OK, so I want to go back to the RWA situation real quickly, because I thought I had read somewhere that you also had GPUs that were being used as part of that RWA stack. Is that true? That's right. Yeah. So tools for accessing firms that are borrowing to finance GPU purchases. Obviously, that's a big topic right now. And there needs to be a lot of capital injected in that space to fund the AI build out. And so that's a portion of this Pappy vault as well. Listen, we've been following collector crypt. This is another one. This is RWA essentially Pokemon cards that were on collector crypt. Now leading the real world asset space in terms of collectibles that we'll see rolling in. Do you think we'll see more of these kinds of RWAs flowing into Trad phi? Oh, definitely.

23:35I mean, look, you're going to get a wide variety of exposure. I saw people talking earlier today on the timeline about bringing luxury goods into the space. And I think you will see that. It's easy to make these things. These markets have already always existed. But they've been in isolated silos, outside of traditional finance, the incredible thing about this technology is they can be brought together. And you're starting to see some interesting combinations emerge. I'm not sure the mean coin stock pairing that's been driving a lot of the excitement on Robinhood is a persistent theme or a short term theme. But that's the kind of thing, unusual pairing that I think you're going to see more of. And it will surprise people. It will feel odd to people. But it's how you sort of stumble you right into interesting new primitives. And I think we're going to get there. Talking about interesting primitives, let's go over to vaults real quick, because this is something that we're tracking pretty heavily. You've got Steakhouse Prime, pretty much controlling the top slot.

24:40You guys, of course, are starting to come up the ranks. Is Bitwise gunning for Steakhouse here? Look, I think of these great early pioneers in vaults like Steakhouse and Gauntlet as friends. Bitwise wants, we think this market can 100x. If it does, I think we'll all be very successful. So we admire the businesses that they built. In some sense, we're competitors, of course. But mostly, we're growing the pie and bringing in more customers. I love those answers. Of course, of course, underneath the surface fall, I want to win. That's the way they want to win too. But I do think the pie will grow substantially. All right, let's go over to our lightning round. Matt, we always love to do this with you. The first question we have is, circle is the best rate hike token to watch. What do you think? Rate height token. Yeah, that's a pretty good play. I'll take it. OK, try and find a yield farmers.

25:42September 15th will shock the world. Do you think that's the case? I think you're leaning more towards the women I get. This might be a nothing burger. No, I think it's a nothing burger. I think we're in the great model. I think the Fed is not the primary actor in the market right now. Interesting. All right. Well, this is in reference to clarity on September 15th. Oh, OK. Sorry. I'm thinking of two things. No, no. I think it's higher than maybe edge me toward the middle. I think it's higher than the Pauly market odds. But if I had to make an even 50-50 bet, I think in the current political climate, the ethics clause makes it very hard for Democrats to align with this. And I'm like a cautious no. Yeah, I'm kind of with you there, but I'm optimistic, but I just don't know if it's going to stick. Here we go. Which asset has sex to your appeal and tokenization unlocked for retail? Do you think it's going to be equities or commodities? Equities, man.

26:42Put me on the far left there. People love stocks and they will love tokenized stocks even more. But even with oil and gold and all this other stuff, I can trade out there not as much. Yeah. You're going to see that you're going to see that blip up and down. I wouldn't be surprised to see like tokenized copper have its moment. Yeah. Pentagon materials, rare earths, uranium. But I think those are short term flashy. I think if you think about what's happening on Robin Hood chain, people love these stocks. Yeah. Treadflop season begins. This is the launch of gated products and chains will be a rude awakening for Treadfy. Do you think that would happen? I agree with that. I agree with that. I'm short. The Treadfy comes in and disrupts things. There's just no record in the market of that of that big trip. Memcoins keep being underestimated by the suits. Not you. Definitely. You're a suit, I would say, but I don't think you have that.

27:45I definitely, yeah. Look at me. 100%. Yeah. I think traditional finance is out of touch with the strength of meme culture. I think they're very out of touch with the strength of social trading. I think that's a trend that's here to stay. Yeah. Like any two of that. And that's not even being discussed in the August tolls of Wall Street. So I think I'm very much in agreement. The change is here. Market is already expecting a fee switch on Morpho. Should we ape in? I'm bullish on all the major defy protocols and Morpho is a leader in that space. So I like it. All right. D.C.A. All right. Here we go. Bitwise should plan a flag right now on the Robinhood chain ASAP. I can't reveal my go to market, but we think about Robinhood chain. I'm going to, okay, I'm going to put you there, but I'm going to say, of course, yes, you're going to be there. Bitwise Jupiter vaults on Salana will outperform the Eath based vaults.

28:45We're already seeing that right now. Oh, that's, that's an interesting one. I don't know. I don't know. I've evolved. That's a tough one for me, but we down the middle. I think likely. All right. Here we go. Attention is liquidity. The GTA 6 launch will benefit Salana and Robinhood the most. I like that one. That sounds right to me. All right. Are you a GTA 6 player? No. I am not. I'm aware of the phenomenon, but I do think attention is liquidity. I think there's a billion ideas that can span off of that and it belongs with these trends in the market. Yeah. I love it. Coinbase, we talked about this on the pre-show. Coinbase is probably having an internal identity crisis right now. This has somewhat been abandoned by the D-gins. It may be because you look at the way Vlad has dealt with this market and then you look

29:46at the way Brian has gone. It's two different games. Do you think you've got a simple fix in order or do you think it'd have to be radical like Armstrong growing a Mohawk or something? I'm actually bullish on Coinbase. I would call it a simple fix. They sometimes move slowly, but then they really arrive and deliver. I think their revenue is going to grow pretty well. Broadly speaking, I'd be long hood and coin and short of the trad-fi people who aren't trying to make this transition. Between hood and coin, I think that's a tougher one, but I like that you want them to grow a Mohawk. Well, I'm going to say a beard maybe. Kind of get that cool hipster look, get back into the D-gins. I don't know if it can be done, but Coinbase needs to become cool again. Michael Saylor will have to conjure up more D-fi products to stay relevant. Do you think that will happen? Do I think it will conjure them up?

30:47No. I think he's staying focused on stretch. No more. That strategy. Yeah. Terry Duffy forced a partner with hyper-liquid by the end of 20-27. Dude, probably yes, man. Probably yes. Okay. Look, look, man. That day comes, Matt. Well, I don't even... I don't mean it specifically for that, but I do think the derivatives markets have woken up that their world is changing really rapidly. And so I think they're going to have to adapt in some format. And what you've seen again with Robin Hood integrating into these D-fi protocols, I think is a roadmap that other people are going to pay attention to. So all of this would have sounded strange four years ago. You would have been dismissed for even mentioning it. Now it's within the Overton window. When I suspect it gets more and more possible feeling over time.

31:48Well, Robin Hood has been a little bit of an outlier in terms of their strategy really forever. You know, Vlad has been very edgy, always pushing the boundary. So for him to make that step was pretty impressive. Did you anticipate that? No, I really didn't. It sort of flies against a core belief I have of brokerages, which is there's a brokerage for every generation and it doesn't change. You know, Robin Hood was sort of the brokerage for millennials. The same way each trade was for Gen X and maybe Schwab was for boomers. And I thought it was peaked in that space. The ability to reinvent itself to capture this younger on-chain market is really incredible, particularly because underneath the surface, Robin Hood is actually also going upstream and targeting richer demographics and actually targeting the institutional space with some acquisitions in the advisor space. So look, I think they're actually building a financial giant. I've called it a generational buy and hold.

32:49If I had to pick a financial stock to buy today in only 10 years, Robin Hood would be it because they've shown the ability to adapt multiple times. All right. Here we go. Matt Hogan is already mentally bored of ETFs. Vault life only or you're going to know people still use for that. Look, yeah, we love ETFs. We're going to launch more ETFs. It's a big part of our business. But I think in the next decade, you're going to see Bitwise do more on-chain than it does elsewhere. But we still love ETFs for sure. But you can put the edge between it's Vault life. Okay. All right. I'm definitely all the way in on Vault life for Bitwise and you and Hunter and all the team over there. We're watching close. It's the direction to travel. We're watching closely. I appreciate it. Hey, listen, thanks for coming in today. We appreciate it. Thanks for having me, man. Appreciate it.