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Is My Husband Toxic? – When You Discover His Double Life
About this Episode
There’s another word for toxic – abusive. If you’re asking, “Is my husband toxic?” What you’re really asking is, is he emotionally or psychologically abusive. Here’s three things you need to know.
What Does “Toxic” Mean?
A toxic person uses manipulation, control, lies, and chaos to get what they want. Often, toxic men use emotional or psychological abuse tactics, which can be harder to detect than physical abuse, but is just as damaging.
See if he’s using any one of these 19 different types of emotional abuse. If he is, he’s toxic. Take our free emotional abuse quiz to find out.
Here are some red flags of toxic emotional or psychological abuse to watch out for in your marriage:
1. Manipulation
Does your husband often twist situations to make you feel like you’re the problem, even when he’s clearly at fault?
2. Control
Does he lie to control your perception of him, rather than meet you on equal grounds by telling the truth?
3. Objectification
Does he objectify women or exploit women?
Questions to Determine If Your Husband Is Toxic
If you’re unsure whether your husband’s behavior is toxic (abusive), ask yourself these questions:
- Does he belittle my emotions, making me feel like I’m “too sensitive” or imagining things?
- Does he undermine me by saying my friends or family don’t know what they’re talking about when they’re doing something to empower me?
- When I express concerns, does he block conversation by storming off or shutting me down? Or start attacking me with the exact same “concerns” he’s never brought up before?
- Does he dismiss or “forget” promises?
- Has he ever lied to me about things he’s planning or what’s going to happen that he has no intention of ever actually planning or doing.
- Does he frequently criticize, judge, or blame me instead of taking responsibility for his actions?
- Do his words or actions make me feel small, unsafe, or like I’m constantly walking on eggshells?
If you answered “yes” to any of these, take our free test for emotional abuse that will help you know for sure.
What Your Husband’s Toxic Behavior Does to You
Living with emotional or psychological abuse can lead to chronic stress, anxiety, depression, and feelings of worthlessness.
It can make you question your reality, leading to something called “gaslighting,” where you’re manipulated into doubting your own experiences or memories. Over time, these effects will erode your mental health and self-esteem.
Yep, Your Husband Is Toxic. What Can I Do?
- Acknowledge the Problem
The first step is recognizing that your husband’s behavior is abusive or toxic. It’s not “just how he is,” nor is it “your fault.” To learn more about this type of abuse, listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast.
- Seek The Right Support
Talk to trusted friends or family members about what you’re experiencing. You might also consider attending Group Sessions, like Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. These sessions provide a safe environment to share your experience with women who understand.
- Learn Strategies To Protect Yourself
If your husband is toxic, going to couples therapy or talking to a priest might make things worse for you. Toxic men often use tricks to blame you for the problems. They might even say your relationship or marriage is toxic, trying to make it seem like it’s partly your fault.
His mean behavior isn’t your fault, even if it hurts you. Before talking to a counselor or Pastor, learn what he’ll do next by enrolling in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. That way you’ll be one step ahead.
Transcript: Is My Husband Toxic? – When You Discover His Double Life
Anne: Jessica is on today’s episode. She holds a bachelor’s degree in media studies and has an in-depth understanding of how the media impacts our lives and shapes our attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors. Jessica is a feminist and activist.
She is also on the board of Culture Reframed, a nonprofit organization founded by Dr. Gail Dines, whose mission is to build resilience and resistance to hypersexualized media.
Welcome, Jessica.
Jessica: Thank you. I’m glad to be here.
Anne: Jessica, a lot of women come on my podcast. In fact, it’s the #1 podcast for betrayal trauma. These women share their stories.And when I told my friends and family, they were like, “Calm down. It’s not that big of a deal. Why are you freaking out? He’s such a good guy.” Even feminists say it’s not a big deal when he’s toxic in this way.
Is He Toxic If He Lies?
Anne: So as an activist, let’s talk about why feminists should be opposed to this type of toxic behavior.
Jessica: There’s a lot of confusion and divisiveness around this topic, and a lot of misguided intention and misinformation.
I just want to start by reading a quote from Rachel Moran, a trafficking survivor. She was a prostituted woman in her youth. And she is now exited and is an author and activist. She has a quote that says, “There is not now, never has been, and never will be, a feminist case for men to commercialize the bodies of women.”
There are two types of feminism, the people who think it’s empowering. And the people like me who think there’s no benefit to the commercialization or commodification of women’s bodies.
And the difference in language is that someone like me is a second wave feminist, another term for it is radical feminist. Radical simply means, the Latin root of the word radical is to get to the root of something. So radical feminists look at the overall system of oppression. Which means it’s patriarchy, and how patriarchy oppresses women and children.
Radical feminists try to look at the root. The other type of feminists who maybe would argue that this type of toxic behavior is empowering are typically referred to as liberal feminists. Third wave feminists, choice feminists, or even sex positive, which I shudder at. I’ll explain why it’s not positive later, but there’s major disagreement among people in these movements.
Focus On Liberation Of All Women
Jessica: So the third wave of people who think it’s empowering believe that if a woman makes the choice. No matter what the choice is, it’s empowering. Based on the fact that she’s getting to make the choice.
So, they’re looking at individual empowerment for the actual individual. Whereas a second wave of feminism, like myself and Gail Dines. And so many other people in this movement are looking at what’s good for women as a class.
So if I decide to be a stripper or go into the trade. In the big picture, it’s not only bad for me as a woman, it’s also bad for my sisters. It’s not good for women as a class, because it puts women at risk. and sends a message to society that women can be bought, sold, and rented by men.
So our focus is on the liberation of all women. My goal is to help free all women from oppression under patriarchy. Not just go make my personal decision. For example, I wear makeup, but I don’t call wearing makeup feminist. So this word feminism has really gotten conflated with a lot of other things. It’s changed meaning, and we see that happening with a lot of things over time.
Toxic Sexism Hurts Women
Jessica: It is co-opted, and people redefine it and turn it into something else. The original definition of feminism speaks to women as a class, not the individual. The word freaks out people, radical because it sounds so extreme.
But I like to remind people that the second wave movement was the women’s liberation movement in the 60s and 70s. The women of that movement were second wave. They were very critical about exploitation. Because they understood that when you have an oppressor class. Which is men in a male supremacy or a patriarchy buying and renting the bodies of the oppressed class. You can never have equality. It just doesn’t work.
So that’s where we’re coming from with this. I just want to add another word for radical feminist or second wave feminist is abolitionist feminist. In other words, I don’t think the exploitation industry, and I like to call it the exploitation industrial complex, because that’s what it is. It’s a multi billion dollar industry.
It’s a big, big industry, and the exploitation industrial complex is just this large thing that we need to look at how it’s affecting women all over. So in other words, if I have a sister who’s getting prostituted or women who are being looked at as objects. How does that translate to me in the real world, in society and culture?
How am I going to get looked at? Will I be impacted? Whether I’m in that industry or not? Yeah.
Liberation From Misogynistic Ideas
Anne: That’s my goal here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. It’s to liberate all women from whatever is exploitative and misogynistic ideas and oppression of what they “should” act like.
And what it means to be a woman is that we don’t have to accept coercion. We don’t have to accept any form of toxic objectification or anything that we feel uncomfortable about in our relationship. Anytime we stand up for our own rights, we stand up for everyone.
If we could hold hands around the world and stop exploitation, it would stop. Because there wouldn’t be anywhere else for it to go.
Jessica: Right, I think women play a big role in this, like you’re talking about. But I believe that until we address the demand side of trafficking. Women will not be liberated, because we know by the data and experts in this field who study exploitation. That it’s the most, generally speaking, destitute, impoverished, traumatized, vulnerable people on the planet are the ones who end up in prostitution, being trafficked, into inappropriate media.
You know, when people argue for choice, like, oh, that’s her choice. We have to step back and define what choice is. Is it her choice to prostitute herself, because she won’t feed her kids? This is a lie that this toxic industry perpetuates. Are those the choices we’re looking at? Are we talking about sheer survival?
And why would we argue for that choice? Shouldn’t we give women more opportunities and look at what are the driving forces and what is bringing them there? And why are they saying, “We could just look at what brings people to the exploitation industry and what keeps people from getting out.”
The Lie Behind The Harsh Realities Of The Oppresive Trafficking
Jessica: It’s horrifying, like if people got educated about this topic and saw what brought women to this. Aside from being trafficked, right, and being coerced and drugged, and all that. What brings them there? And then why they can’t get out. The trauma, the feeling of they have no place to go. And the brokenness when you escape this abusive trade. The needs that you have to get back on your feet emotionally, physically, spiritually, all of it, that’s a lot of heavy lifting. It is a lie.
And there are not many services out there. So, many women don’t make it out of the trade alive. They take their own lives, they die of drug addiction or overdose, they are killed, they die of complications from injury, all kinds of health and physical risks. Abolitionist feminists like myself, we don’t believe that this industry can be regulated. The same way an abolitionist in the 1800s in this country would never say, we want to keep slavery, but we want to regulate it.
They wanted it gone. Because they knew that this was something built upon oppression. It was built upon racism. It was built upon patriarchy, and so from a second wave feminist point of view. Like myself and Gail and you, we see it the same way. You cannot regulate an industry built on exploitation, inequality and patriarchy. It is a lie that you can make this type of toxic industry safe for the women used in its making.
We see it as dehumanizing and objectifying other human beings. And it’s a human rights issue.
Public Health Crisis: Toxic Online Material
We can talk to regulators, anything you would consider under the public health umbrella. Big Tobacco was a good example and model that we like to reference a lot, because there was a time, not too long ago, where there was a huge divide in the medical field about whether cigarettes were bad for you.
And whether they caused lung cancer, and some doctors actually prescribed cigarettes to clients to help ease anxiety and relax them and whatnot. We still have clinicians in the mental health counseling and coaching fields today, who prescribe this type of toxic material for couples. And it’s harmful.
The Lie Of The Sex Positive Movement
Jessica: We still aren’t there yet in terms of education. And so I think the public health approach is the best approach everybody can get on board with. Everybody can get on board with this, because it’s about looking at the facts. It’s about the data, science, and education. So that people can make informed decisions, not just take this away, and the person seeks it underground or whatever.
This is now an informed decision about your health and your relationships, which equates to your health because we know how important relationships are to health.
Anne: Exactly. So with that, let’s actually talk about the this movement. We had a guest on one of our episodes talking about being positive, which is so cool right now. And to be a progressive, like educated person. If you said I’m not then everyone would give you a weird look. Can you talk about how this toxic material is NOT positive, and why?
Jessica: Yeah, there are so many reasons it’s not. I’ll start with first and foremost, it ruins people’s intimate lives.
So that’s ironic, that the more a man uses this toxic material the less intimacy they have with a real life. You’ve heard of inappropriate media induced erectile dysfunction. This is a new phenomenon we’re seeing since the explosion of. Young men report erectile dysfunction that can’t be explained by any other variable.
The Lie That Toxic Online Material Isn’t Harmful
Jessica: They’re otherwise healthy men who don’t have a physical reason for having erectile dysfunction. So it’s keeping people from actually connecting. So there’s that, number one. Number two, it’s a product that’s scripted, not creative, very formulaic and bottom line driven.
It’s about hooking the consumer and taking away their agency. If you want to talk about choice, agency, and empowerment, it’s the absolute opposite. They’re hijacking our own ability to have authentic intimacy. So the template, instead of authoring my own intimacy, my own sexuality. Which is the most private, personal thing in my life. Now it’s co-opted by this multi-billion dollar industry, designed to change my template.
It takes people’s power away, and you hear this from many recovering people. That once they stop using and stop using for awhile, they get their sense of agency back. And they start to have their relationship back, and they can co-create an intimate relationship with their partner.
I came up with this quote because it’s one of the big arguments in the third wave movement. It’s none of your business what people are doing in the privacy of their bedrooms. And I like to respond by saying, “If it’s none of anybody’s business, what people are doing in their own bedrooms. Why have we made it the business of the this toxic industry to the tune of multi-billions of dollars?”
The Lie Of The Sex Positive Movement
Jessica: Yes. So they have gone from saying, “It’s nobody’s business, what I do”, to “I’ve handed it over to a big business.” And now what happens in the bedroom is directly or indirectly run by this multi-billion dollar industry. That, frankly, has nobody’s best interest in mind.
Not only is it addictive, but we know it’s horrifically, and this speaks to the feminist piece and the human rights piece. It’s horrifically misogynist, violent and brutal towards women. There’s tons of data on this. I don’t know how anybody could defend the content online today with any kind of positive or feminist lens. Or even defend it as a humanist. Somebody who believes in human decency.
It’s a type of hate speech in my opinion. Why is this protected when they’re showing so much hate? Anne, think about this. If you were to show any other group of people of an oppressor class, like white people. And you had a multi-billion dollar media industry that shows white people abusing a subjugated group of people. Let’s say an Asian group or Black group or another oppressed or subjugated group of people. There would be public outcries.
This would not be okay. But because it’s women, and because you’re sexualizing the violence and eroticizing the aggression, now it’s okay. But if you take it, all you see is violence, torture, and brutality. And why are we okay with that?
It’s Violent Hate Speech
Jessica: Especially because we live in a worldwide global culture, we have a pandemic of abuse and violence against women. It’s a lie that this toxic material is just fantasy, it’s not. We know the numbers with the Me Too movement, one in three. Every day, I read another article or more statistics about how violence against women is going up. Rape and campus rape is a pandemic.
People can’t even keep up with it. These fantasies that men masturbating to are real life nightmares for real women. And something is really, really wrong with that. To have this group of people, women, suffering at the hands of men with violence. And then make movies about it for entertainment and men to masturbate to.
The problem with the third wave liberal positive movement is they are not connecting the dots. It’s a lie that you can have it both ways. You cannot say we believe women should be free of violence, exploitation, and objectification when you support an industry based on all those things.
Anne: I think they are just purposefully ignoring it. Because every time you try to address it with someone in that camp, they just talk in circles. There’s no resolution, and they don’t make any sense. You can say this isn’t logical, but they won’t be pinned down because they don’t want to give up this toxic material. They want to say these abusers can be a good person while engaging in this stuff.
If Your Husband is Toxic, He Uses People
Jessica: No, that’s just it. There’s no real argument. There’s no data. It’s a thinly veiled debate. I don’t get far in those, because I’ll start asking real questions and I don’t get answers. I just get, “It’s my choice. If you don’t like it, don’t watch it.” You know, all the things that you could do to dismiss a public health crisis.
Like, if you don’t like cigarettes, don’t smoke them. Then you start zooming out and going, wait, now it’s affecting everybody. It’s affecting children, our healthcare system, and our taxes. I mean, the list goes on and on. Yeah, well, and not to mention, that cigarette in this scenario is a person.
Correct, and that is a beautiful segue to the differentiation between addiction and every other kind of addiction. Is that the human being, in many cases women, the substance being abused. And there is a big difference when you use a person as a substance, versus a drink, a drug, or a cigarette.
So this is another reason why it’s even more serious and needs to be looked at as a human rights issue. I’ll also copy down another one of my favorite quotes. It’s by Jean Kilbourne. She did a series called Killing Us Softly, and it was about how women are portrayed in advertising. It’s brilliant, if you can ever get your hands on it.
Objectification Of Women Is Toxic
Jessica: Even if you say, “It’s my choice to strip, or it’s my choice to do this, or it’s okay for women to step out and objectify.” What we have to remember is that objectification is dangerous, and there are many statistics on this.
There’s a great organization out of Australia called Collective Shout that researches how objectification hurts. Not only the person being objectified, but also the person doing the objectifying. And it leads to violence and harm. It changes the way we interact, the way we connect, and the way we view others and ourselves.
It takes away our empathy, because if the person is now an object, you are really distanced from that person now. And you lose empathy.
Anne: Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we are the largest organization in the world for wives of toxic husbands. So many organizations are fighting exploitation or trafficking. We view ourselves as the in-home victims of these types of abusers.
Define Your Boundaries To Protect Yourself From His Toxic Behavior
Anne: And they should set that as a human rights boundary and also as a self respect boundary, right? Like, I will not allow myself to be abused like this in my own home. I want to talk about coercion for a bit. So it is our contention here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery that if a man tries to talk a woman into accepting his toxic behavior. When she doesn’t want it, and he hides it from her, that it is a form of coercion.
And he has not received her consent because he’s not giving her the full information. And while he’s lying to her about his toxic behavior, he’s withholding her ability to give consent.
Jessica: I 100 percent agree with both of those. It’s common. The user tries to get around it by manipulation. The part about trying to talk your partner into accepting something that doesn’t feel good to them. And is coming between you is definitely coercion and abusive. Because it could lead you to feel like, if I don’t do this, he’s not happy. And he will leave me. My authentic self is not good enough.
And also what’s happening is there’s a control issue. He’s controlling the narrative in the relationship. So, there’s no co-creative relationship. Between two people who come together and be playful and creative, and decide what feels good to both of them.
The Impact of Toxic Secrecy
Jessica: What’s mutually pleasurable. And so this is somebody who’s saying, I want this for me, even though you’ve already stated you’re not comfortable with this. So trying to talk somebody into what their limitations and boundaries are is a type of abuse. And coercion, which those go hand in hand, and as far as hiding it goes. I mean, you guys know this more than anybody, because you deal with betrayal trauma, which has to do with secrecy.
And lying and dishonesty will break a person and ruin relationships. Because if my husband lied to me about stopping off from work and getting a piece of cake because he’s on a diet. And he just fell off the wagon and got a piece of cake, and he didn’t tell me about it.
Or he lied to me, yeah, lying’s not good. It makes you question people, it erodes trust, it’s not a good thing. He lied about something against my values, it’s something that I’ve set a boundary on. Something that has to do with masturbating to images of other women. He lied about seeking stimulus outside of our monogamous relationship. Assuming we’ve agreed on a monogamous committed relationship. Then, that is a different kind of betrayal.
Anne: Well, it’s also abusive. This lack of consent, in saying, I know you want a monogamous relationship with no infidelity, so he lied to you. That is coercive in and of itself, and manipulative.
If He Lied About ANYTHING, It’s Toxic To You
Anne: If he lied, you’re not giving consent. The information she needs to make the right decision and give her consent.
Jessica: 100 percent agree that if he lied, that takes away her consent. And she is engaging in a relationship with somebody who she does not have all the information
Anne: That she wants. She said flat out, “I don’t want this.” And so he lied and hides it from her. I think this is extremely serious, and people are not taking it seriously.
And it is an abuse. People dismiss it or say, Oh, well, you know, he doesn’t need to tell her. And I’m thinking, no. You don’t realize this represents abuse. And it represents abuse in every case where he’s controlling the narrative. Like you said, and not willing to give her all the information she needs to give her consent. It’s a serious, serious abuse issue.
Jessica: It is an abuse issue. And I a hundred percent agree. It is. It’s taking away that person’s right to consent, because they don’t have all the information to give informed, enthusiastic consent to their partner. And if women knew their partner was masturbating to even more toxic material, like child abuse material, it’s so traumatizing.
If I Asked And He Lied, Is That Abuse?
Jessica: If we knew that our partner’s template was that, that’s what turned them on. And that’s what they were masturbating to. We should have every right to know that, so that we could say I’m not compatible with that person. I don’t want to have intimacy with somebody who is turned on by that for many reasons.
One is not compatible because this is now crossing over into core values. I don’t believe in violence against women, so I don’t want to be with somebody who’s masturbating to it. We have to get straight about when we meet somebody or when we’re with our partner about what our core values are in general.
And also what our core values are around it and what is our compatibility. The bottom line is there’s no compatibility there.
When I Asked If He Was Into Toxic Material, He Lied
Anne: But the tricky part is emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. It’s the manipulation and lying that happens.
Jessica: Yeah, that’s a good point. There are so many variables, but I think every woman wanting a monogamous, intimate healthy relationship will not want someone who uses toxic material. And to your point, you can do and say all the right things and still be betrayed.
We can’t control everything anyone does, especially something this covert, secretive, and stealthy. But we can be clear with ourselves about our boundaries, about our values.
And then we can communicate those to our partner or prospective partner in the best way possible. And so that’s to empower the listener on this podcast to say, “Okay, I’m going to focus on what I can do.”
Anne: Yeah. And when you say they could be betrayed, I want listeners to know they could be betrayed during that conversation.
They could be lied to and groomed during that conversation. For example, when my ex started dating, he sometimes dated my friend’s friends. So during that time, I kept hearing stuff. And I didn’t interject myself into the situation, but then I would get these texts. And I got a text from a friend. She said, “Hey, I’m skiing today, with a friend, and she’s dating your ex.”
Somebody Could Say All The Right Things & Still Be Lying
Anne: He told her “everything” and said, “Okay, if you never want to see me again, that’s fine.” She thought it was the most amazing conversation. She was like, wow, he’s so open. But when I heard what he told her, it’s not even close to everything. It’s not even close. Some of it’s not true, he lied. So the interesting thing is she thought she had this amazing, like heart to heart. Where he told her everything, and she knows about him, and she felt this is a good guy.
But that’s not what it was. So that’s what I want to caution people. If their intent is to hide that they use toxic material, you’d never know. And that conversation is abusive in and of itself.
Jessica: And this is such a good point, and why this conversation we’re having is so important. Like, for example, somebody could say all the right things and be lying. And so as a sisterhood, as women who are all affected by this issue, we need to share red flags. Like, what are the behaviors to watch for? What are the changes to watch for?
Because unfortunately, we have to play detective. And it’s not to say that we need to project onto our partners or prospective partners, or blaming, shaming and accusing them. However, this is the reality we live in.
Red Flags and Toxic Behavioral Changes
Jessica: For example, I was on a relationship Facebook group the other day, and this one woman said, my, I think it was husband or boyfriend, of long term stopped talking to me.
Now when they have intimacy, he won’t kiss her. And she can’t figure out why, and it’s not a bad breath issue, and all this stuff. I mean, she’s like racking her brain trying to figure out why she’s no longer being kissed.
And I have the inside scoop on that, because this is what I do for a living. So I brought that up and she said, “You know what did cross my mind? And I asked him, and he denied it.” Okay. So again, you have that denial, but at some point she’s going to need a reason why he’s not kissing her.
Anne: I actually disagree. There’s no point at which she needs an answer. If that is not how she wants the relationship to be, she just needs to set a boundary. Because there’s no way to force an answer out of him.
The Words Don’t Matter, Watch What He Does
Anne: If he refuses to tell her and blames it on a psychological issue. She might think, “Oh, okay, it’s due to this psychological issue.”
Jessica: She would never know. I totally see your point. And the bottom line is, to your point, to take it even further. If that behavior doesn’t change, then that’s the real issue.
Anne: She doesn’t need to say anything. She can just think in her mind and make a decision. If he’s not going to kiss me, I’m not gonna have intimacy with him.
Jessica: Yeah, it doesn’t feel good to me. It doesn’t feel safe, yeah.
Anne: We try to encourage people at Betrayal Trauma Recovery not to look for reasons. Because you will never find them, or if you find it, it might be a fake reason. Focus on the behavior that makes you feel unsafe, the non kissing, and set a boundary around that. And that way you’re always on the right track.
Jessica: That’s a good point. I agree. If you don’t feel safe in a relationship, emotionally, physically and spiritually, You can’t have intimacy.
Those two things cannot coexist. You cannot feel unsafe and also be close to somebody, and have bonding, intimacy, trust and all that. So there’s been this idea that at all costs, you make the relationship work. You are in a relationship, and you stick it out.
Now there’s new data that says, your health, psychological health, emotional health, physical health, all that is better being a single person or being alone, and not being constantly in that state of nervous system arousal. Watching your back, wondering, questioning, because that wreaks havoc on the nervous system.
Boundaries Are Actions, Not Statements
Anne: So I want the listeners to know that too. I think there are many people out there, especially women, thinking I have to make this work or stay in this because the alternative is worse. And the alternative is sometimes way, way better. I always say don’t worry whether you want to be in the relationship, if you set boundaries around the behavior. This is why I wrote The Living Free Workshop. It teaches you how to set small boundaries and watch from a safe distance.
So, for example, if you don’t want to kiss and if I don’t feel safe, I’m not having it with you. The relationship will take care of itself. He will be like, oh, well, I don’t want to date you anymore. So you don’t have to be like, well, if he doesn’t start using a spoon properly, then I will break up with him, right? You could say, “Well, if he’s not going to use a spoon properly, I don’t even have to say anything to him. But I’m going to take my food and actually go in the other room.”
When He Lied To Get What He Wanted
The cool thing is, you don’t even have to tell him. You don’t have to say, “If you put your elbow in my face, I’m going to leave.” A boundary isn’t something you say. It’s the action you take. When you talk, when you say, “Hey, I don’t like it when you put your elbow in my face.” That’s just a statement. It’s not a boundary. You don’t have to only make boundaries around deal breakers.
Jessica: Absolutely.
Anne: You can make boundaries around any type of behavior that you’re like, meh, this is not working for me.
Jessica: Exactly.
Anne: That’s my thought about it, but I don’t know how you feel.
Your Partner’s Job: To Create Safety
Jessica: You’re spot on, it’s good to get to know the person, take it slow. But when you start to feel like it’s going somewhere romantically, I do think it’s good to start talking about what are your views on this kind of thing?
Anne: A note here really quick. I just want to say Jessica is agnostic, spiritual, but I’m going to put words in your mouth here. You are not of the type that’s like no contact before marriage. So if you’re dating someone and you feel like, okay, this is going somewhere. I think I’m ready to have intimacy with this person. Marriage is not a boundary for you. Is that accurate?
Jessica: That’s accurate.
Anne: Your perspective will be different than mine, because mine’s going to be, what are the things I need to know before I have a relationship with this person?
Jessica: Right, right, absolutely. This is why there is no formula, right?
Anne: Exactly. So when I decide, okay, do I not only want to have intimacy with this person, which would be maybe a decision about a few things? I’m thinking, do I want to marry them and ergo have intimacy with them?
Jessica: Right? Are they marriage material? Yeah, that’s what you’re thinking. There’s obviously a wide spectrum, and for me, it’s love, safety, and respect. I’m not loose or, or, uh, boundary-less or even, what’s the word? Dare I say liberal? I’m not liberal when it comes to that.
Can Women Figure Out If He Is Lying Early On?
Jessica: I think it has meaning, and I think it’s bonding, and I think people need to be more responsible. It’s a big deal. And there’s data that supports that, what it does in our brain and how we feel bonded through that. And betrayed when that connection is broken.
So whether you’re waiting for marriage or waiting to get to know the person and have these other values addressed, it’s important, I think, just to bring it up in a way that’s about you.
And of course, I’m going to say it right away, and in a way that is helpful for me, because then if the person sticks around, great. If they don’t, well, that helps me weed them out. Whether it’s not just romantic partners, but friends, colleagues, I mean, it goes on and on.
Anne: The interesting thing about dating and marriage is that even though he’s toxic, you might not know until years later.
When Should Women Ask Her Boyfriend About Toxic Material?
Anne: It’s not like smoking. It’s not like meth, I mean, people can hide their drug addiction. But after a while, you’d be like, this person doesn’t have any teeth, you know? You can see it. Or maybe with alcoholism, you can smell it on them or something. But if he’s using toxic material, there’s no tell.
Jessica: It’s true, you may never know, and this is why you have to pay attention to behavior and what is or isn’t working for you. So if you’re in a relationship, let’s say you’re dating somebody and talk about, what do you want out of a relationship? And they say, I want monogamy. And you say, okay, good. We’re on the same page there.
We both want monogamy. These are things that obviously need to be discussed, right? So we’re both in it with one person, blah, blah, blah. And then you can even take that conversation further by saying, let’s define monogamy in this digital age we live in. Well, for me, monogamy means my partner is not seeking stimulus outside the relationship with me.
And that’s a broad statement that encompasses a lot. So not seeking stimulus outside the relationship. That means not going to strip clubs. That means, you know, not even going to somebody’s Instagram page and looking at their bikini pictures seeking stimulus.
We Can’t Control Others’ Toxic Behavior, But We CAN Set Boundaries And Honor Our Values
Jessica: Now it’s not to say, I mean, obviously we live in a misogynistic, objectified world. Men will see images of women everywhere. That’s uncomfortable for most women, but it’s the reality. I mean, that’s like the polluted air we breathe, right? You can’t avoid it. It’s just pollution.
What you want, though, is the person’s commitment to not seeking it out, and also to paying attention to you. And the relationship he has with you. Really focusing that energy on you, on your monogamous relationship, because that’s what defines monogamy, is that you’re having intimacy with one person. And it might not be a lifetime of a monogamy, but at that time it’s that person.
You know, five years from now, you might divorce, and then it becomes a different person. But it’s still monogamy, because it’s one person. So I would say as a guideline to define the kind of relationship you want, and then define what monogamy means for you.
When you say to somebody point blank, objectifying women has the same effect on me as a man cheating on me. That’s a solid, clear statement. So then if he decides to go home that night and use toxic material, he is willingly doing the thing you said is cheating.
Anne: And I think going even further than that, saying this is what I see as monogamy, this is how I define it. And if I ask him, and he lies about it, hides it from me, or manipulates me to make me think that’s not happening. That is coercion. That is abuse.
Make YOUR Health & YOUR Safety The Priority
Anne: You would be doing that. And I do not want to be abused. When I was young, my mom told me about rape, and she said, “If anyone is raping you, I want you to look them in the eye. And I want you to strongly and forcefully say this is rape and I will prosecute.”
She had me repeat that several times, and we role played a little bit, and that’s what she wanted me to say. And I want women to say that too. This is what coercion is, and I will be very hurt and it will be abuse. So if I find out, that’s what you would have done to me.
Jessica: Calling it like it is is very important. Women find themselves in situations, as you know, there’s a lot of gaslighting and manipulation going on, so we might sense that.
Like we know something’s wrong, the hair on the back of our neck stands up. Just something’s off. And if you don’t have proof that person might just be like, that’s not happening. This is all in your head. What are you gauging this on?
Anne: I want to ask you something.
Cultural and Religious Perspectives on Toxic Material
Anne: So in my culture, where I live no one has ever set me up with, nor is anyone who is agnostic asking me out. I would go, but I’m just saying nobody is. So all the people I am in contact with are religious. From my point of view, if I talk to them, they’re always going to say, of course not. Always. I’m never going to get the response, like, oh, I do use that stuff. I’m never going to get that response.
I might get a, I used it in the past, but now I know it’s bad and I don’t anymore. But I’m like, I don’t believe any of you guys. For you, where you’re dating people who may not be religious. When you bring this up, how do they react? Does it go well? Does it go weird? Can you talk about some personal examples you have?
Jessica: Most of the people I have dated have been not religious. 99. 9 % of the time when I talk about my stance on the industry in general. Most non-religious people are taken aback. They want to know why. “What is the problem? What’s the deal? Isn’t it about choice and personal empowerment?”
And if a woman decides, they usually try to flip the script to this whole choice argument. “If you’re really a feminist or care about women, you’re going to let them do what they want.
Philosophical Debates About What Causes Men To Be Toxic
Anne: So are they arguing with you on that point?
Jessica: So in my dating history, the person says he’s on board with respecting the boundary. So that’s first and foremost, like, yeah, okay. I can do that with. I’m on board with respecting that boundary. Okay, great. However, there is a lot historically, a lot of arguing about the topic. So my boundary in the relationship is set. Cause I’m really black and white about it.
It’s a deal breaker for me. And so when I have that conversation about, “Hey, we’re going further in the relationship. I want to be committed. Let’s be monogamous. What are your deal breakers? What are your non negotiable?” And we have that conversation, and he shares with me, and I share with him what those are. And they could be the same or different depending.
There’s usually some sort of philosophical debate or argument. And you’re that black and white about that issue. You must be religious, you must be conservative. There’s like all this stuff tied to it.
And then there’s this whole thing about prudishness and repression, and there’s this idea from many non-religious people that if you take a firm stance about this topic, you must be coming from a pious or religious perspective.
Define Your Relationship Boundaries
Anne: So you have that philosophical argument, but how does it go in the actual relationship? Does it end up falling apart because he doesn’t believe you, or because he’s lied, or what happens next?
Jessica: There is a lot of explanation and a lot of what I would call psycho-education. I’ve had to psycho-educate every man I’ve ever been close to or been with romantically, about people. Also about objectification of women and what it does to relationships. Also what it does to a person’s brain. And honestly, I don’t mind having the conversation if the tone of the conversation is inquiry, listening, learning, and wanting to be a better person.
But if it’s a debate, I usually shut that down. I’ll say my piece, and then I’ll be like, I’m not interested in debating this with you. I happen to have a lot of expertise in this area. I have the data.
Anne: With the debate guys, do you end up having a relationship with them?
Jessica: I have ended up having a relationship with, after the debates have gone away.
Anne: So after you’ve said, hey, I’m not debating with you anymore.
Jessica: Not that quick, but it’s almost like coming from different worldviews. So, I’m coming at it with this firm, I have all this information.
Anne: I understand. What I’m looking for is, what’s the end result?
Find Clarity Through Boundaries
Jessica: The end result is that I end up with somebody who’s on board with learning about it. I hate to use this word, but converting.
Basically, if somebody listens to what I have to say, with an open mind and an open heart, and trust me. They’re not gonna think it’s okay anymore. And if they did, it wouldn’t work out. Like, they wouldn’t want to be with me, and I wouldn’t want to be with them.
So, once that has been put out there, and I try to do it in a way that’s educational. Because this is the culture we live in, most men have absolutely no idea.
Anne: So you have been dating the same person for years and he has been converted?
Jessica: Yes, absolutely.
He was coming at it from more of this. “Well, shouldn’t people be free to do what they want to do and what feels good to them?” He was also coming at it from an open-minded place. If anybody’s gonna fall for me and my belief system, I’m very counterculture on this topic.
As you know. I know you are too for somebody to stick around, and someone with this counterculture perspective says a lot about them as a person anyway.
If I Ask About Toxic Behavior And He Lies – It’s Abusive
Jessica: He obviously had to get on board for it to work.
Anne: That’s why I think the whole religious situation is irking me. I’m so irked because I am very religious. At this point. I’m like, I don’t care if the person I’m dating is religious or not. I am, and the reason I feel like that, currently. So I mean, maybe when it comes down to it, because I don’t drink, for example. I don’t watch rated R movies.
So maybe when it came down to it, just the way my lifestyle is, it wouldn’t work, you know? I don’t know. But, I would much rather have somebody like that. Than someone who purports to be like, no, of course I don’t like it, because everyone in our culture doesn’t like it, and everyone in our culture is supposed to be monogamous.
That is like the worst. And that is happening throughout the religious culture, like exponential levels, the lying and the manipulation and stuff. It is so bad. And it is annoying. Not just bad and annoying. It’s coercion. It is abuse.
Jessica: It is abuse. It’s so subverted and underground, like at least if you’re talking to somebody who’s non religious or interested in exploring the topic to get to that place, but if you say and believe it’s wrong and you’re doing it anyway.
Anne: Where do you go from there?
Jessica: Where do you get? I believe slavery is wrong, but I’m gonna have a slave. Like where do you go from there? Yeah.
Anne: Exactly.
The Impact Of Toxic Material On Templates
Anne: Let’s talk about the manipulate your template issue. Because I was talking with a friend yesterday, and she said, “You know what you don’t explicitly ever say on the podcast?”
And I was like, “what?”
She said, “You don’t explicitly say that many abuses women suffer in their homes, like the names being called or the way they’re being treated, are actually what the men are viewing with this type of toxic material. She doesn’t know that the way he’s treating her comes from what he watched.
Because she’s not watching it, she doesn’t know that these behaviors may have come from there. I think it’s important to realize that, and this is exactly what you said, that what you are watching is altering your template.
It’s altering what you are attracted to. And we’ve got that happening a lot, where men are no longer attracted to their extremely attractive wives or girlfriends. It’s not hard to see what his lack of intimacy does to a woman. Because their template is being edited or altered by unrealistic depictions of women.
Jessica: It’s being altered by unrealistic depictions as well as self stimulation. The arousal and the orgasm that happens when they’re viewing this takes it further.
Cultural Conditioning & Intimacy Scenarios
Jessica:I mean, we’re all conditioned. I have cultural conditioning around what I think is attractive and unattractive for myself as a woman. Society conditioned me to be hairless, wax my legs, and all that. So we all experience cultural conditioning around these things. We’re always comparing things to what we see in the media and everything else. The idea, obviously, is to go beyond the superficial when you meet somebody.
And actually have true intimacy, which is beyond hairy legs or non hairy legs, and that’s the work all couples need to do. It is finding intimacy that goes beyond what the media has been feeding us. You can’t have it both ways.
You can’t be masturbating to these images, and now we’re not just talking about unrealistic images. We’re talking about violent degrading, you know hateful types of scenarios. And images and this chemical concoction that happens in the brain, and what that does neurologically to the brain. There’s no argument for a net benefit for this type of toxic material.
Just for the record, I oppose self stimulation in a relationship with two willing partners who want to have it. If one person goes off in private or in secret to masturbate, that raises a big question mark. I’d rather have my partner say, “I’m not okay with that, and this isn’t going to work,” than agree to it and then resent me for it.
He Lied About Something I Cared Deeply About
Anne: And I think that is actually the biggest problem right now. Because like with me, I said, “This is what I want. I want this type of monogamous relationship. Self stimulation is not okay with me like ever. That’s my thing. Never, it’s never okay. These are my boundaries.”
And he said, “Absolutely, absolutely”. So when he lied and said he didn’t do any of it. So that is the like scariest part of it. And that’s where abuse, manipulation, lying and coercion comes in. Because that was so abusive.
But let’s pretend like we marry, and a month in he’s like, you know what? I thought I didn’t want to, but I actually do, and I’ve been doing it, so you said that was a boundary. And I would have been like, oh, that stinks. But the thing was, then he acted like he wanted to change.
Critical Analysis of Values
Anne: Part of the problem is, I don’t think, at least in the religious community, men know that they’re supposed to act a certain way, and so they act like that. But I don’t think they’ve really come to grips with I don’t act according to my values. I’m not doing the things that I’m supposed to do. And I need to be honest about that. They just kind of like go with the flow and say what they’re supposed to say. And that’s what’s irking me.
Jessica: I think you bring up a really good point about what I would call critical analysis.
It’s important for people to develop these values through critical analysis, rather than simply accepting them as how they’re supposed to be. Even non-religious people obviously hold a sense of morality, ethics, and an understanding of right and wrong. I, as a non-religious person, developed this through a lot of critical analysis. You have every right to feel annoyed and upset when you see this trend in this population.
Anne: Jessica is amazing. I appreciate her perspective, because at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we are interfaith, but also inter-paradigm. So people who have no faith or people of whatever paradigm are welcome here. And so I always love having a different perspective. So thank you. Jessica, thank you so much for coming on today’s episode.
Jessica: Thank you so much, Anne. It’s nice to have the support and having these difficult conversations. Thanks for having me.
Hosts & Guests
No transcript available for this episode.
