Is your doorbell using AI to spy on you?

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This literally is the beef of the century, because this is the beef.

That is still fueling so many decisions in the AI race today.

From the BBC, this is the interface.

The show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world.

I'm Thomas Germain, a tech columnist at the BBC who covers how we use technology

and how technology uses us.

I'm Karen Howe, investigative reporter covering all things AI.

And I'm Nicky Wolf and I do the weird internet subculture and national security stuff.

Today on the interface, we will be discussing.

Is your doorbell spying on you and your neighbors?

Why the US TikTok take over matters even if you don't use the app?

And the beef that launched chat GBT.

So who cut the Super Bowl on Sunday?

I can't.

Not I.

The only Brit in this recording is the only one who watched the Super Bowl.

I guess for the football.

Yeah.

I had a friend come over for dinner and I was like, oh, we should watch something.

What do you want to put on?

He's like, oh, the Super Bowl is right now.

I'd completely forgotten it, which makes me feel like I'm not a real American.

Not a real American.

Are you guys like big fans of the ads?

I was this time.

There's one ad in particular that we want to talk about now, right?

Yeah, and it got people very wild up because of what it implied.

And that ad was by Ring, the doorbell company.

Loads and loads of people, I know you use it.

I'm sure that's the same for you guys.

It's very useful.

You know, someone rings the doorbell.

You have an app on your phone.

You can see who stood outside.

What they announced during the Super Bowl ad was a new feature

that they've been soft rolling out for a little while called Search Party.

They announced it for lost dogs.

They were like, we have already saved 99 missing dogs

because someone, someone whose dog runs away, you can hit the app.

And it will turn on everyone's ring door cameras

and look around for the lost dog.

I like finding lost dogs.

I mean, that sounds nice.

But it also means that your camera is part of this giant surveillance network.

A lot of people totally freaked out about this, right?

Yeah, and I think barely rightly so.

I mean, we live in an era where surveillance, mass surveillance,

and law enforcement overreach, if we can very diplomatically put it like that,

is top of the news.

I saw this ad too.

And I feel like the thing that was, there were two things that made this ad.

I think really bad for the company.

Like the first one is that they talked about how this Search Party feature

has successfully found 99 dogs in 90 days of operation.

There are 10 million lost dogs in the world.

So it's like not even a good functioning product.

Like people have been talking about that's literally a 0.005% success rate.

Like the 99 dogs, that's more than no dogs.

You got to, I like that.

That's true.

That's true.

But the problem number two is that I think the visuals of the ad,

I think that's why it's set off alarm bill for everyone,

because they literally showed all of the homes suddenly lighting up

and scanning the streets with blue light to find a dog.

And in a moment right now, where so much of the US

is, has ice on the top of their minds.

And all the things that have been happening,

happening with confrontations between ice and citizens.

Immigration and customs enforcement.

Yeah, this is why the ad has gone instantly viral

in the wrong direction for the company.

Like so many hundreds of thousands, millions of people now

are talking about how they never knew that this was a possibility.

They had no idea and they want to immediately opt out of the feature

or ditch the product.

And what a lot of people describe it as it was a Trojan horse.

Who could object to, to lost dogs?

But the functionality of this, the potential for this to be used for other things.

Even if we say that the US government,

will we absolutely above board with this?

And we already know that the US government has successfully requested

and received ring camera footage.

You know, you're trusting every government

and a massive tech company here.

And that is a huge leap of faith

that I don't think tech companies have really earned.

And ring in particular, these aren't like hypothetical concerns.

Like sharing ring camera footage with law enforcement

for a long time, like was the point.

Ring partnered with police departments

all over the United States, passed out these cameras,

encouraged them to distribute them in neighborhoods

specifically as a tool to set up police surveillance.

In fact, they had this system set up

where police could create bringing accounts

and they could get access to camera footage from people's houses without a warrant.

They could just request it from the company

and they would hand it right over.

This caused a big controversy.

There were cases where people were like,

they didn't realize that they were handing over

like their home security footage to police departments

and they shut that feature off.

But there's all kinds of other concerns

where there was this big federal trade commission.

But I think a lot of people who pay really close attention

to ring saw this ad and were like,

yeah, duh, what did you think this was?

There's this giant tech company

that has all of these cameras all over the United States

and all over the world.

And yeah, they are in control of that footage.

It's stored on their servers.

And like you were saying,

this search party feature

that for now is just about finding less dogs

is on automatically.

If you don't want to participate,

you have to go.

This is a huge point.

Turn it off. They've opted you in.

It's worth saying as well.

Like the reason why I think people were so freaked out

is because of the ice stuff that's happening right now.

And just as you were saying, Tom,

that Ring has a history of giving data to law enforcement.

I also has a history of trying to use different types

of technology platforms like this one

to engage in more surveillance.

Like there was this scene that for or for media published

that actually documented a bunch of the different tech apps

and tech platforms that ice has used,

including ones that they have partnerships with like

with Palantir, where Palantir is developing

this immigration OS platform that's integrating all this data

into from different government agencies to track immigrants.

But also from tech companies that they don't actually have

official partnerships with.

So the 404 scene talks about flock,

which is this network of cameras

that do automated license recognition in the US.

And what 404 found was that ice will ask local police

departments that have access to flock

to do searches at the behest of ice.

So think about like, flock is 80,000 cameras.

And it's specifically license plate recognition.

Ring is millions and millions and millions more cameras.

Like this is the largest private camera network in the world.

And that just completely expands to a different scale.

The level of visibility that a law enforcement agency

like ice could have if they wanted it.

Palantir of course is a tech company founded

by the billionaire Peter Teal

that does a lot of data processing for the US government

in the military.

And now ice separations and customs enforcement.

And the UK government just signed a huge,

just a few months ago signed a huge deal with Palantir.

So they were also working in security here.

I mean, Palantir is literally named for

the scrying device that Sauron uses in the Lord of the Rings.

I mean, it could not be more.

These tech companies are not subtle.

But if you name yourself after literally the ultimate evil

and one of the largest stories,

I mean, help us help you guys Silicon Valley.

Now, ring in their defense says they have like really robust security practices.

We also aren't here to say like, ring is evil.

This is bad.

No one should use it.

It's it's a personal choice.

So we did get in touch with ring.

And they got back to us with a response.

Which says that right now this particular feature

such party can only recognize dogs.

They said they do have an optional feature called familiar faces

that does use human facial recognition.

They said that video sharing is never automatic.

And you can with search party share by choice to share the video with the dog owner.

They also said that ring has no partnership with ICE.

But they did say that they do hand over data to law enforcement.

But only when they're legally required to do so.

Yeah, I mean, those are pretty robust protections, right?

But I think what a lot of critics are concerned about.

And also like what a lot of people who saw this ad are worried about

is like it shows you like the potential of this technology.

And the kinds of things it could be used for if the company, you know,

changes its policies or changes its strategies and point in the future.

The in fairness is that these are very useful.

My dad who's disabled has a, I don't think it's ring,

but another similar camera installed in his flat.

So that his camera can always check in and make sure that he hasn't had a fall,

make sure that he's safe.

Loads of people feel like this makes them safer.

But you know, there's a trade-off that people are making.

Like you're saying, Nikki, there's a very real way in which these can help promote

the safety of your house and your family.

That's that's an absolutely realistic possibility and outcome of using these products.

But there is a trade-off which is giving up control over, you know,

what is happening on your own property?

Sometimes inside your own house and it opens you up to potential consequences in the future.

I mean, you can think about people talking about your data, you know,

maybe no one's doing anything bad with it right now.

But the fact that it exists means that someday in the future,

it can be used for a purpose that you don't like or you're not comfortable with.

Yeah.

And it is possible to say, I can see the argument that this is worth it for the chance of saving a life.

Even for the chance of finding your dog, right?

But that's the question that we're being asked.

And because it's opt out rather than opt in,

that's not even a question we're being asked.

And in terms of questions being answered for you,

let's say you're not comfortable with having a ring camera.

If your neighbor across the street puts one on the door

and it points towards your house and you're filming,

there's nothing you could do about that.

So it's like other people are deciding.

And I think this speaks to one of the key questions that surrounds all of tech,

which is how much privacy are you willing to sacrifice for convenience?

Yeah, I mean, this is one of the things is like,

these companies kind of use the convenience to erode privacy,

but they don't actually have to do that, right?

They could provide these features without also accessing the footage.

So they kind of use the convenience doorway into being able to monetize off

of really intimate data and intimate moments and people's lives.

If you want to turn this off, it's very easy to do.

If you have a ring camera, you open up the ring camera app,

you go to the homepage.

There's like a little menu up at the top that you can click on.

And then you go to the control center and there should be a feature there called search party

or it'll say something like opt into or opt out of helping to find lost pets,

which I mean, why would you want to do that?

We all we love lost pets.

So this is easy to turn off if you're not comfortable with it.

There are a whole bunch of other privacy settings that you can go switch off as well,

which is something that I really think everyone should go look at.

Like even if you're totally comfortable with ring,

if you've got one of these things on the front of your house or inside your house,

just go look at what privacy settings they offer you with and make sure you're comfortable with it.

A hundred percent.

Yeah, we're fixated on ring here, but just think for a second about all of the products in your house

that are connected to the internet.

All of them are collecting information.

I know at Karen's house, it's just like you're a Luddite,

so it's just like a bunch of rocks and stones like nothing.

I feel like I don't even know if you have Wi-Fi,

but for the rest of us, there's even, I'm kind of worried about this stuff.

And it's worth just putting in any effort that you can.

You know, after you're done listening to the show,

just check it out, see what's out there.

It's worth your time.

I love that.

I like,

surprisingly, do not have a digital hygiene routine.

So I feel like after this episode, I'm immediately going to go to Karen.

Yeah, I'm going to.

Yeah, and look at my two technology objects in my house.

Right.

You're like 2005 Nokia brick cell phone.

Yeah, and your your abacus, you know.

We focus on the part of the internet that most people don't know about.

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From the BBC World Service, World of Secrets,

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Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get to your BBC podcasts.

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Huge data breaches, AI threatening jobs, foreign meddling,

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We can help you make sense of all the noise wherever you get your podcasts.

So we've been talking about the power that all these technology companies have over our lives.

And I think there's one in particular right now that perhaps like culturally

in the conversations we're all having that has more of an influence than any other.

And that is TikTok.

And it's a good moment to be talking about it because there was this huge transition.

There's a TikTok takeover where the company that owns TikTok,

a Chinese company called Bite Dance, was forced to sell the US operations of the app

to a consortium of other companies in order to keep operating in the US

because of a bunch of laws that the government passed over privacy and security

and national security concerns.

So now as of January 22nd, TikTok's US version of the app is now owned by three different companies,

including Oracle, which is a big data processing company owned by Larry Ellison,

who's a major Trump donor and ally and a company called MGX,

which is based in Abu Dhabi, which did a big crypto deal with the Trump family.

And then like another investment firm.

So what's been happening on the app is absolute chaos over the past couple weeks.

And I know a lot of people hear this and they go, oh, TikTok,

like whatever I don't care about that.

I think we've kind of gotten over some of the-

Isn't that Fajanzi?

Like what's going on?

Right, it's like there's, you still hear people go,

though that's where the kids are dancing.

This matters to your life, whether or not you use TikTok.

You hate TikTok.

You've never watched a TikTok video in your life.

It still has a major influence over your life in your future.

TikTok is, I think without a doubt, it's like the sun at the center of the solar system of the

internet, right?

It's not the biggest app in the world's social media, not even close.

But it has become like the locus of online digital culture.

It's the place where conversations start and then branch out

into other parts of the internet and then leak into the real world.

It's the cultural engine room right now.

Exactly.

This is the most compelling

exploitation of TikTok that I've ever heard.

I personally don't use the talk, but now I'm feeling promo.

Yeah, it is a really, really important ecosystem.

And what people are freaking out about now is the app is undergoing some major changes.

So part of this deal that was struck among the big concerns is that the Chinese government

might have control over the algorithm and they might like spread propaganda.

There was this amazing hearing in the U.S. Senate where the CEO of Bite Dance.

Oh, but that was the CEO of TikTok, not the CEO of Bite Dance.

Oh, right, right.

So that's the reason.

But yeah, I think at this home tell us, the Senate said it was like,

have you ever been a member of the Chinese Communist Party?

And the guy's like, he was like,

so I'm, I'm Singaporean.

The guy's like, could you ever be in a citizen of China?

And the guy's like, I'm Singaporean.

Yeah, it's really beautiful.

But there is no reason to think that, I mean,

make Tom, maybe you can correct me on this, but there's no reason to think that your data

is less safe with TikTok than it is with say, meta or Elon Musk's Twitter.

There was never that we've been talking about TikTok freaking out about it for years.

There has never been a single shred of actual evidence that has been produced,

that anything untoward happened with the Chinese government and American TikTok data.

Never.

There hasn't been one shred of evidence.

It's all been speculation about things that could go wrong.

So this new set of companies took over.

It's called the U.S. joint venture is what TikTok is calling it.

And part of their plan is that they were going to retrain the algorithm,

like take the algorithm and start over from scratch and like build a new one.

And in the first few days, like the first week after the app rolled out,

things just went nuts.

What do you mean by that?

Like what happened?

So it seemed to a lot of people like there was censorship.

So the TikTok count, the official account for the Democrats in the United States,

like usually their videos get like millions of views.

All of a sudden,

they were posting videos that were getting like zero views or like a couple of thousand.

There were some examples, screenshots and online where people said like they were trying

to send messages that had the word Epstein in them and they weren't getting sent.

And also there was all this weird stuff like if you looked at the search page,

it was suggesting all of this like weird creepy stuff.

Like it would suggest that you search like don't look at that mirror in your house.

Like just the weirdest stuff in the world.

It turned out that what was happening was that there was this big snowstorm a couple of weeks ago

across the United States.

And according to TikTok, a data center had a power outage

and the app was just going haywire because things weren't working.

Then very quickly, like everything kind of went back to normal.

But what we do know is the app is retraining the algorithm, right?

They're going to shift how it recommends videos, what it recommends.

And people are worried that these companies that now have control over this app

have these ties to the Trump administration and perhaps they could use this new power

that they have to promote ideas that are beneficial to Trump or the American government

or suppress criticism.

And it's worth saying that is precedent for this, right?

This is people are not worried for no reason.

This is exactly what did happen after Elon Musk took over Twitter.

It's that the algorithm started favoring things based on differing political.

He opened and openly said that.

Twitter at the time was basically in that same position of being a cultural engine room.

And it really changes conversation off the app in a way that affects people's lives

even if you've never been on Twitter or TikTok.

Tom, take a step back.

When you said that they're retraining the algorithm,

how is it actually working between all of these companies?

Is Oracle the one that's going to be retraining the algorithm?

Is the other company and have they said anything about why they're retraining the algorithm

or what they're going to retrain the algorithm with?

That's a really interesting question.

So part of the agreement in the sale of the app is that they have to retrain the algorithm

because the algorithm is intellectual property and bite dance the company that owns most

of TikTok. They still have like a 20% share in this new company, the TikTok joint venture.

So any concerns that you had about China, it's not like those have gone away, right?

China still has major control over the app.

I think it's like there's this new company called the TikTok joint venture

and the company is doing it.

So Oracle, the giant tech company that Larry Ellison owns is certainly involved in that process.

But like you can just kind of feel that things are different on there.

The videos that are getting recommended are just different and like the order of videos.

For whatever reason, they just have Larry Ellison's face in every single one.

That's so weird. I've never been on TikTok.

I've seen things that are TikToks because they come through Instagram rails.

I think one of the things that I want to do is join TikTok and sort of get an idea of how TikTok

works and get a sense of it. If you're you've been on TikTok for a while,

I've been I'm a big TikTok user. I actually joined it because like I felt like well,

I'm writing about it. I have to be using this app in order to understand what's going on there.

And I really had to force myself to do it. I was like, this is so uncool. I don't want to be

user. And then like I got completely addicted to it. Like I have to force myself to put it down.

But yeah, I I'm a big TikTok user at this point.

Would you be up for teaching me? Even if you give me this.

I think we have to. Yeah, we got to get you. Because you're like really,

you're not participating in the modern era if you're not on there. I mean Karen, I don't know if

we can we can get you involved. But I feel like I feel like this is a situation where

Tom, you're the earthling and Nikki is an alien that's coming to earth.

Well, and I am like the relative that's still on the other planet. And Nikki's just going to have

to call home everyone's in a while and explain to me what's happening on earth.

Let's talk. Let's set you up with an account. I'll tell you how to make a video like what you

can try and do to go viral and get people to pay attention. That could be like a nice project

we're working out of the background. Stay tuned. Although hang on.

In the UK, will I be getting the Ellison algorithm or the OG TikTok algorithm?

Outside of the US, it's the same TikTok it always was. It's connected to the US TikTok app.

So the content is flowing back and forth. But you, Nikki, if you set up, you're still getting

that pure original classic Coke. You're getting the original TikTok algorithm.

But what I do want to talk about for a second is maybe why you shouldn't be worried.

There are real concerns. What's going to happen with TikTok now? Who's in control?

What's going to happen to the algorithm? What we saw with Twitter now called X is that

Elon Musk turned it into an ecosystem to promote his political agenda. He openly said that's

what he was doing. And this was, it seems catastrophic for the app. They lost a ton of users.

They lost a ton of advertising revenue. It seemed like this wasn't a great business decision.

It certainly wasn't handled in a smooth way that didn't upset lots of people and push them off

the app. I think with TikTok, there's like three different companies who are investing along with

TikTok. I think that these people are more concerned about business and the TikTok app itself

making money. And I think they're very worried about upsetting TikTok's users and losing the

cultural cashier and the force and the power of this app. We reached out to TikTok to ask them

to comment. They declined. But certainly the company's position is that they are as concerned

about protecting people's privacy and promoting free speech as they ever have been. That's the

company line. That's what it's always been. But in the time that follows like the future of this app,

people are going to be looking for examples of where things are going wrong. Where it's, oh,

there's a pressing, this kind of content. They're promoting this and I don't want them to.

Is that happening because TikTok and its allies and people from the Trump administration are

putting their thumbs on the scale? Or is it just that people are making bad videos that no one

wants to watch? You'll never know because the algorithm is a total mystery to the people who are

using the app. Okay. I need to talk to you guys about a different super blood. I know that we

already talked about one super blood, but there was another one that a lot of people were talking

about, which was the anthropic ads. I love this. I think this is so funny. Yes. And

anthropic is an opening eye competitor. They make the chatbot cloud. And this is, and

I've basically made four different variations on an ad where there's a user of a chatbot.

And then there's a chatbot personified in another person who is then basically responding to the

person as though they were the chatbot. So one of the ads is like this guy who's trying to work out

and he's struggling to work out. And he's like, can I get a six pack really quickly? And then the

chatbot personified is like, it's like his personal trainer, right? Yes. Like this is like really

buff dude standing next to him who has this like dead panic expression and then goes, perfect.

That is a clear, well-established goal. Let's start with and then whatever. And it goes through

this whole thing. The chatbot then suddenly goes, and you know what else you should do instead

of working out? Have you considered getting these insoles that will make short king stand taller?

And like every single one of these ads then has this tagline ads are coming to AI but not cloud.

I think for most people who saw this ad, it was probably just really funny because obviously

opening eye anthropic are competitors and opening eye just announced that they are going to be

rolling out ads to chat GPT. This was an attack ad, right? This was basically a sub tweet back in

the day when there were sub tweets because opening eyes not explicitly mentioned anywhere. There's just

this reference that ads are coming and of course opening eyes the only only company that's

rolling out ads. This deeply triggered Sam Altman, CEO of opening eye. He tweets out this really

long dramatic essay where he's like, first of all, these ads were funny, second of all, seriously

dishonest. And then he just like insults anthropic with like more and more intense insults

as like the essay goes on. So he says, anthropic serves an expensive product to rich people. And then

he goes, one authoritarian company won't get us there on their own to say nothing of the other

obvious risks. It is a dark path. Yeah. I mean, we should talk about why open eye was so freaked out

about this anthropic ad like the whole AI industry is in this super precarious position.

And this like weird petty fight between the billionaires who own these different companies

actually ultimately will have a direct effect on the experience that you're having on the internet.

It seems like, you know, just this like high school drama. But this this actually matters in some

surprises. Yeah, 100. So this literally is the beef of the century because this is the beef

that launched chat GPT. I don't know if you guys know the story like basically open AI did not

actually intend to launch chat GPT as a product when they were in November of 2022. They were

actually working on a totally different product, which was this super assistant. It was going to be

like a chapline, but it was going to be built on GPT for and they were supposed to launch it in

the spring of 2023. But in the fall of 2022 rumors started circulating within open AI that

anthropic might launch a chapline before them. And so the executives literally made a decision

on the spot to accelerate the launch of the chapline in two weeks time using not GPT for which the

entire company was working on, but using an older model GPT 3.5 and just smacking on the user

interface that they were already developing for the launch in spring of 2023 onto this older model.

And they messaged it to the entire company and also to the public as this is going to be a low

key research preview. It's not going to be a real product. It's going to maybe have a small

viral moment on the internet. They wanted specifically to get the data flywheel going. So they wanted

that virality to then generate a bunch of interests, get a lot of user data and then use that user

data to train up and refine the real product launch GPT 4 that was going to happen later.

And instead, like they popped this out and it just blows up and completely changes history,

right? And the reason why open AI made that decision in that moment is also because of the history

of anthropic. So anthropic was founded by a splinter group from open AI.

Right. So this is personal. Yeah. In late 2020, Dario Amade, CEO of Now Inthropic was actually

a executive at open AI gathers up a bunch of his buddies who work in critical roles within

open AI and they decide to leave to start this competitor because they fundamentally disagreed

with Sam Altman's approach to running open AI and also fundamentally did not trust Altman's

character and did not believe that he would be capable of continuing to run the NEI company.

Well, this is like a multi-year, extremely personal event data that has literally shaped the

entire trajectory of the AI industry and of people's lives around the world. And it is the beef that

is still fueling so many decisions in the AI race today. That's the interesting thing, right? There's

there's this moment that we're getting right now with AI that we haven't had in technology for

a long time, which is that there is actual competition, right? Most of these giant tech companies

have these monopolies, right? Google has a monopoly over search engines. Amazon, like that's where

you go to buy things on the internet. There's all these companies that have their little fiefdoms

and nobody really competes with them and they can make their products worse and worse and

or like in the pursuit of making more money and there's nothing you do about it. With AI,

there's all these different companies that make a product that is kind of the same. Yes. So there's

this desperate competition to be the cool kid in high school and anthropic launching this ad that

makes OpenAI look bad. That's a code hood. They're freaking out right now because in a month,

OpenAI's empire could collapse. I'm not saying that's going to happen, but everybody is right on

the razor's edge right now. So we talked about how this beef had a historical importance in

actually launching charity, but it also is going to continue to affect your experience

with these chopots moving forward because, for example, the New York Times reported last

late last year that when OpenAI started seeing this drop in its market share, the company internally

declared a code orange to try and figure out how to get their user numbers and their user

engagement back up. When OpenAI declared that code orange and when they were tinkering with

the way that the model behaves, it had a direct effect on users like people are worried that

the company is going to make the product more addictive and we have already seen the effect

that that had earlier last year when OpenAI accidentally made the product more addictive and

it led to this entire new phenomenon of AI psychosis. So this beef and the competition between

all these companies is literally driving how hundreds of millions of people are going to be

experiencing their AI product. And it's worth noting that it's like not just a beef between OpenAI

and Anthropic, like the CEOs of every single AI company has beef with one another. You think

that this industry is primarily driven just by profit and business competition but actually a huge

huge component of the moves that these companies make and how it's ultimately going to affect your

experience on your phone is because these individuals hate each other. It's so childish.

And that's our show. Join us next week. If you're in the UK, you can listen on BBC sounds or if

you're outside the UK, you can listen wherever you get your podcasts or just search for the

Interface podcast on YouTube. If you want to get in touch with us over email, you can reach us at

the interface at BBC.com.

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