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AXIS MOONDY
Hello and welcome to It's in the Code, a series that is part of the podcast straight
white American Jesus, my name is Dan Miller, Professor of Religion and Social Thought
at Lamar College. Please to be with you as always and as always want to say thank you for listening,
thank you for tuning in, thank you for supporting the things we do, it's straight white American
Jesus. We can't do it without you and as always inviting your thoughts, feedback, comments, ideas
for upcoming series and topics in this series that you can reach me Daniel Miller, swadge,
Daniel Miller, SWAJ at gmail.com. That's the way to reach me. I also haunt the discord that
subscribers can access and so on. And as I've been saying, working up a series on questions,
I was not supposed to ask in church or questions I wasn't allowed to ask in church.
Maybe if you were a church goer or spent time in that world, the questions that got you in trouble,
the questions that I don't know got you labeled as somebody or friends weren't supposed to
hang out with, the questions that upset your pastor got you sent to the proverbial corner. What have
you? Send those to me. I want to hear them. I want to put that together. Put it in your header,
questions I wasn't supposed to ask or something like that. And I look forward to exploring those
with you. In the meantime, I want to continue on here. We are continuing our our ride or our forced
march, I guess, maybe through Josh Holley's book manhood. We continue exploring his vision of
as the subtitle suggests the masculine virtues America needs. That is Josh Holley's vision of how
we will save America by cultivating the proper masculine virtues. And again, we're not reading
Holley because he's Josh Holley or because he's otherwise like special or notable in some way.
We're reading him because his account of masculinity opens such a window into the reasoning
of the contemporary MAGA aligned right in so many different social and religious domains.
And we're continuing on or in the seventh chapter of the book for those who are keeping
score. We've made it that far. The seventh chapter of the book in which Holley presents
the third of the distinctly masculine roles he believes men are called to play. In other words,
the latter portion of his book are a series of like roles that he thinks men are called to play
where they exercise these distinctly masculine virtues that will save America and so forth.
And we are on the role of warrior the third of these. And we've already looked at this role some.
We've seen that Holley plays fast and loose in telling us exactly what the so-called warrior
virtues that men are supposed to cultivate are when he wants to rail against liberals or
progressives or what he calls the modern Epicurians. Those virtues sound really militant and violent.
In other moments, they apparently include things like ambition and drive. We talked about that
before and leadership, which exactly no one opposes. I don't know anybody who's like, yeah,
leadership's a terrible virtue. We should be opposed to it. So he's slippery in those things.
We've also seen that when he reaches for a biblical model of the warrior man. And remember,
Holley is a biblical assist. He wants to be basing this in the Bible. He wants to be claiming
that what he's saying is a biblical model, a Christian model. He is a Christian nationalist,
self-evowed and open about it. He believes that America is a Christian nation. He believes that
an embrace of America's Christian identity can save us. So this is supposed to be a distinctly
Christian vision of masculinity. So when he looks to the Bible for his exemplar, he looks to the
figure of Joshua who was tasked with conquering the so-called promised land. And here the masculine
virtues are apparently strength encouraged. Joshua is told multiple times in the text to be
strong and courageous and so strength encouraged are the virtues. Again, despite what Holley says,
I don't think I know anybody who's like strength and courage are inherently negative traits
or anything like that. And they're also certainly not obviously masculine in character. I don't
know what it is about, you know, being a guy that supposedly would make it so you can exercise
strength or courage and the people who don't identify as male couldn't. But there we are. We talked
about that and we also talked about the fact and this was the real focus last time that Joshua is
a hard choice to live with since his warrior calling involves undertaking divinely sanctioned
genocide against those peoples who already live in the so-called promised land by the time in the
biblical text that the Israelites are coming back to the promised land to quote unquote reclaim it.
It's not sitting empty. There are our whole civilizations there and the idea is that they have to
be wiped out and early destroyed and so forth. And we saw that Holley doesn't actually acknowledge
or deal with that issue. It's an obvious problem with the book of Joshua. And if somebody's not
predisposed to just kind of give the Bible a pass or to assume that the Bible is a morally good book,
if somebody reads it and they read all of these commands to utterly destroy everybody lives there,
it's an obvious problem. Holley just doesn't talk about it. He just doesn't deal with it. He just
kind of pretends it's not there. Okay. So today, sort of carrying all of that forward. And this is our
last chapter where we're talking about his warrior vision. Today, we're going to take a closer look
at what he actually does with these seemingly convoluted ingredients of a men's warrior task. How
do they all finally come together? Okay. And for me, this carries through from the last episode,
because there's still this ongoing question of what do you do? If you're going to point to Joshua,
as your exemplar, what do you do about the little issue of genocide? There's the little tiny teeny,
teeny problem that God commands genocide through Joshua. That was the title of last episode,
genocide Joshua. And we're going to see how Holley, in my mind, how he tries to take the offensive
in the morally problematic elements of his appeal to Joshua out of the account of masculinity. We
already saw this that he he doesn't deal with it explicitly. He doesn't say, oh, here are some
problems with Joshua. People read it this way. Here's how he responds. He doesn't mention them at all.
But what we're going to see here is another strategy that he uses that runs through this.
And so what we ultimately get in this last part of the chapter on warriors is exactly the kind
of lame evangelical sermon that those of us who grew up in this tradition have heard a thousand
times. We get a really crappy, here's how this applies to your life, kind of message from Josh
and that's what I want to talk about today. So let's start with this. Those who have listened to
me talk about how conservative Christians actually use the Bible. And I know this is a thing I talk
about a lot, but you cannot talk to people who claim a conservative Christian identity for very long
before they are going to claim biblical authority. They are going to tell you that what they hold
is what they hold because the Bible teaches it and that it should be accepted because the Bible is
the word of God and so forth. And so I talk about this a lot. And people know that I say all the time
if you listen to me to conservative Christians are not actually biblical literalists. Why does that
matter? It's because they will often say I read the Bible literally. I'm a biblical literal. So
be a point of pride. The Bible is literally true. And it's also an issue that gets picked up by
other regular people commentators on evangelicalism and other forms of conservative Protestantism
will often describe quote unquote biblical literalism as a defining feature. Scholars of religion
will do this. They'll talk about biblical literalism. And I have said multiple times that they're
actually not biblical literalists that I've said that there's no such thing as a biblical literalist.
They might claim to be they might believe that they are really go to bed at night putting their
head down on their pillow feeling confident that they are biblical literalists and that the reason
why they believe what they believe is because the Bible tells them to and so on. But they aren't.
They are not really biblical literalists. And when I have discussions with people they're often
surprised when I make this claim. Certainly other religion scholars I've discussed it with them
and they're like why do you say that? That seems like a strange thing we'll get and you know we'll
get down in the nuts and bolts of it. Definitely people are still conservative Christians. I've had
more conversations than I can count with conservative Christians who consider themselves
literalists trying to show them that they're actually not and sort of laying little traps and
things to catch them in the fact that they're not actually literalists. But also people who've
undergone you know what we refer to as faith deconstruction or they've left that kind of religious
subculture behind. And they will say I grew up I was a biblical literalist I grew up in a church
that believed the thought that the Bible was literally true the way I used to read the Bible was
literally and so forth. And so even though they don't think that now that's still how they
understand their former position and I cannot hear and I'm not interested in fully developing why
it is that I say that there's no such thing as a biblical literalist but I can show you an example
because in this chapter Holly gives us a great example of exactly why I say that and what I mean
and in giving that example he shows us the other way that he's going to try to sidestep that whole
messy like what about the fact that Joshua was commanded to commit genocide sort of issue okay.
So here I want us to listen to how Josh Holly gives his summation he's an attorney this is his
summation this is his kind of summary or kind of closing argument on some of the stuff he's been
saying about Joshua I want to listen how he sums it up the account of Joshua taking the promise
and his transition that is Holly's transition our Joshua's transition to how this should
inform our understanding of masculinity and masculine virtue so here's here's what he has to say
those who want to do a read along I'm on page 117 again I'm reading this book so you don't have to
but you know if you're a glutton for punishment and you want to read it it's page 117 so this is how
he sums it up he says this is no ordinary piece of land where Joshua is God is going to do something
special with this ground this is to be the site of a new Eden and Joshua has a role to play his
task is to redeem it clear it I was going to pause so where he leaves out the whole clearing it
thing he's supposed to clear it by like genocidal he wiping out everybody who's there whatever
doesn't say it his task is to redeem it clear it for God's purposes to be accomplished Joshua
must rid the land of the giants and the monsters that are taking control he must break a path
for the light again I just I can't resist he has to clear the end of the giants and monsters
last time I said these are actual people and yes the text sometimes uses that kind of language
but Holly dehumanizes them by sort of picking up on this theme of giants and monsters as if
as if Joshua's out fighting mythological creatures or something and not commanded to wipe out
other people okay anyway this is what he says that's his summation God is going to do something
amazing and transformative through Joshua as he goes into the promised land and he wipes everybody
out and then listen to the next line the same is true for us in our lives there's the transition
and I want to pause for a minute and I want to I want us to think I want us to catch how this
transition is supposed to work for us as we read this God's going to do something great through
Joshua's going to take the land and wipe everybody out and the same is true for us in our lives
okay it works pretty much the way that my phone feed does people who know me know that I like
analogies and metaphors of my own so here's one and I promise I'm going to circle back around I'm
going to land this plant okay so just stick with me it works the same way my phone feed does
about a year and a half ago I started working out again I'm a middle-aged guy and I'm like I need
to start getting in better shape and heart things are real and blood pressure things are real and
glucose level things are real all the stuff all the stuff you don't need to worry about that but
I started working out again and as a middle-aged guy whose body doesn't work like it did when
I was in my 20s or even my 30s I'd look stuff up about working out of middle-aged like things
that you should do or shouldn't do or recommended things or you know whatever whatever and of course
in looking that up the algorithm got me so now I and I'm sure a lot of you were in the same
boat I get all kinds of ridiculous unsolicited workout stuff in my phone feed like I do the same
thing a lot of other people do that you're not supposed to do for sleep hygiene and all that but
some way there before I go to sleep I'll scroll through my phone and I get all kinds of weird workout
stuff and a lot of them work like this they work by highlighting somebody with a superhuman physique
or superhuman physical prowess some athletes or I don't know maybe an influencer or a well-known
celebrity or whomever and they tell me that if I workout like them if I adopt their workouts
I can do it too so you get the one that's like you know something like here's Jason
Memoa's secret secret biceps workout or check out Travis Henry's monster leg day for real
results or here's the old school workout that Arnold used in his heyday or whatever and the idea
is it worked for them it'll work for you and I know again like most of you also know with the
stuff that comes along your your phone feed this is pure bullshit it's pure bullshit no matter
how much I try to adopt the work I don't I don't I know this is bullshit I don't try to do this
but if I were to go look oh Arnold used to do this or Jason Memoa does that or John Cena does this
or I don't know Dwayne Johnson does whatever I can go and do their workout all I want
assuming it doesn't kill me and I'm still gonna be me when I look in the mirror it's gonna be
middle-aged Dan Miller looking back maybe I'll be a little leaner maybe I'll be a little fitter
maybe I'll be a little stronger I'm not gonna be Jason Memoa I'm not gonna be Dwayne Johnson
I'm not gonna be John Cena or Travis Henry or whomever else it's not gonna be me
nope not gonna do it this is how Holly's message works here and it's it's completely typical of
evangelical preachers it's exactly what he does God did all this amazing stuff in Joshua's life
yeah he's gonna read the land of giants and monsters and taking control is gonna make it holy land
and he can do the same for you it's the same thing God did amazing things for Joshua and he promises
this for you too and and this this is this is like I say that Josh Holly is typical here he is
typical of God I can't even tell you how many lame ass sermons I have sat through with some pastor
who does the same thing some Bible passage you're just waiting for you're waiting for the flip
of like and you can do it too kind of thing it's everybody's predictable and everybody's lame
and everybody's bullshit as the stuff that comes through in your phone feed and that's what Josh
Holly's feeding us here and here's what I think I think that Josh and I think every evangelical
preacher deep down they also know that it's bullshit they know this and here's what they know
Josh Holly knows full well that the story of Joshua is absolutely irrelevant to virtually all of us
maybe there'll be some small subset of people who are going to be real quote unquote warriors maybe
they'll be in the military or something okay still a hell of a difference between being in today's
military and being in the military thousands of years ago in the ancient Near East and so forth
okay maybe some of us might at some point in our lives be called upon to exercise violence or
force in defense of ourselves or someone else that could happen okay but those cases really
they're few and far between and they are far from the kind of calling to literal holy war the
features in the story of Joshua I'm very aware that there are lots of mage of people who want
America's army to be a crusader army and who view everything that goes on as an American holy
war or whatever but it's not okay setting them aside it's it's this that the point is if we're
looking for a direct application and relevance of the story of Joshua it lands on almost none of us
just like those things the pop up in my feed the promise the the promise that the same is true
for us in our lives is pure nonsense the same is true for us in our lives exactly what Josh
Holly says is pure nonsense what does that mean here's what it means here's why this matters
the Joshua story taken literally
is absolutely irrelevant for almost all of us almost all the time it has no direct
relevance in most of our lives for some of us never most of us almost never
so what does Josh do well he's going to make the story relevant I just said it's irrelevant he's
going to make the story relevant but the way he's going to do it is by not taking it literally
he is going to turn it into a metaphor he is going to extend it metaphorically and again this is
typical this is what all those conservative Christian preachers do meanwhile they're all
standing out there talking about taking the Bible literally but in their actual preaching and
teaching what they do is precisely not to take the Bible literally they have to turn it into a
metaphor so that it has some relevance and connection to regular people so I want to read his
sentence again but I was tricky I only read the first part of the sentence I want to read the
second part of the sentence here's what he says he says the same is true for us in our lives
and above all in our characters wait what true in our lives but in our in our relates to our
character it's a metaphor it's a metaphor for for our character he turns the whole story of Joshua
into a metaphor here's what he says here's the next paragraph after the paragraph all the big
things God's doing for this is where that sentence starts here's what he says he says the same is
true for us in our lives and above all in our characters Joshua's story is not just about Canaan
Canaan is a place but it represents more than land what's it Canaan is a metaphor guys it's not
really a literal place it stands for the whole of the earth and for our lives as well God has made
the world to be holy he has made our lives to be holy and the two go together in the story Canaan
is overrun with wild beasts and enemies but our souls can be like that to clear the ground of our
lives for a garden we must break new paths of character the path to the world's renewal runs
through our souls it's touching turns out it's not really a story about a place
doesn't really matter if it happened historically or whatever all those claims to
literality they don't matter it's a story about our lives and our souls and our character
what what Holly does our friend Josh what he does is he metaphorically shifts the story to being
one about our personal inner and sometimes to some extent interpersonal lives but he makes
it a story about us as individuals it's about our inner lives and our inner struggle and our
development of character it's not actually about a promised land or fighting real enemies are
doing literal warrior stuff it's about our internal battle so a few pages later I promise I'm
not I'm not gonna read from the book in you know in detail anymore well I'm not gonna do it in
this episode can't promise in the future a few pages later he's got a whole section about how
our canon is pride oh my god this this is the the cheesy sermon move Joshua's canon was a place
but each of us have our own canon to face up to each of us has a canon for all of you in the
congregation today what is your canon what is your promised land that is overrun by beasts and
enemies that's what he's doing he says our canon is pride our battle is an internal battle not
to be prideful and then after that the next section he tells us that our task is to develop love
and hope okay love and hope now sort of interestingly this is I I could do so many episodes on every
chapter of this he uses an example and then here's an example in this chapter is protesters in
Hong Kong protesting Chinese policy how brave they are and how they're showing like love and hope
for society and whatever but this from a guy who like if you were to ask about I don't know
protesters in Minnesota protesting ice actions he would tell you that they're lawless and they're
evil and that they're not law abiding and so forth so it's just a just an aside when they're
protesting something he supports it's an expression of love and hope but it's something he doesn't
support their law breakers but our task is to develop love and hope and then summing it all up he says
that quote courage and love and hope are the inner masculine virtues we need to develop he talked
about pride it's funny he's like pride is the source of everything he just this kind of basic
Augustinian notion that pride is the source of said and whatever and he says that but then like
when he's listing the virtues once again humility disappears like there's no reference to pride
even though he said that's the big thing but the point is he said these are these inner masculine
virtues courage and love and hope and he makes the metaphorical extension clear
so he's summing up the story at the end of Joshua's life and he says this he's talking about
Joshua the end of his life he has quote martial the armies of Israel he has led them into war he
has driven back the enemy from the promised land okay and then on the next page he starts to shift
and he says Joshua was was transformed by these events says he confronted his giants and he
grew as a person the Bible doesn't say that the Bible does not talk about Joshua confronting
his inner demons or his inner giants doesn't say Joshua grew and developed as a person doesn't say
that and then we get the extended metaphor and then he says the same is true for us all
we are called to and can confront the giants and the beasts within ourselves and we too can be
transformed okay dude do we see what's happening here Holly isn't appealing to the Bible as
literally true he's got the whole story of Joshua but it turns out that the story of Joshua's
not actually about anything that Joshua did it's all just a big metaphor for us to like focus
on our inner selves to be the best people we can be he's turning the Joshua's story into a metaphor
that is relevant for all of us and this is how conservative Christians actually use the Bible
no matter what they say there's nothing remotely literalist here and this is just a prime
example when somebody says why do you say they don't read the Bible literally here it is
it's not unique to Josh Holly again it is typical of every crappy evangelical sermon you'll ever
hear if you grew up in those churches you knew it I can't tell you even as an evangelical sick
and tired I got of like the same sermon every time about like you can do it too
I mean Josh Holly here he's just following the preaching paradigm that is taught to conservative
Christians every conservative Christian he goes to seminary and takes a preaching class
is taught about how you you have to have the application section how are we going to apply it
to our lives it's where you turn into a big metaphor so the literally it doesn't have any relevance
so taken in a literal sense the vast majority of biblical texts they're almost completely irrelevant
they have no direct application of people's lives that to be metaphorically extended like this
so Josh Holly gives us a literal textbook example of why it is that I say conservative
Christians don't read the Bible literally and he certainly isn't okay so Josh Holly doesn't
actually read the Bible literally neither do other conservative Christians but so what why am I
talking about this what does that have to do with masculinity and masculine virtues and his specific
point for me there are a few relevant takeaways that this illustrates for us the first is this
it's what I and this is not I didn't invent this language other people will talk about this
it's what we can call the sort of therapeutic turn that defines a lot of contemporary popular
conservative Christian teaching you listen to all that language there about confronting pride
and fighting our own inner demons and being hopeful and whatever what what Holly actually offers
it's just like it's just a kind of basic self-help motivational guide with a veneer of Christian
teaching slapped on top and scholars of religion and popular culture or people who study like
religion and media and fields like that they've noted this general therapeutic shift for decades
that this is like conservative Christians when they talk about these notions of like
why you should believe these things and what the Bible means or whatever it's just this sort of
therapeutic self-helpy kind of language so in suggesting that the the warrior virtues that was
the focus that was the focus of the chapter we got to be warriors that this warrior ethos as P.
might call it that this warrior ethos is it's really to master ourselves and be better people
Holly and Holly's Bible it isn't telling us anything we couldn't find on the self-help
shelves of any bookstore anywhere he's not giving us anything here that you couldn't find in
a lot of other sources the second point is that by metaphorically extending the warrior motif
he actually undercuts it he goes from suggesting that men should be aggressive and tough and even
violent fighting for what's right to the really basic and pretty mundane teaching that we need
to work to make ourselves better people thanks Josh and it wasn't me to be a warrior man tell me
that sounds awesome Josh I'm in I'm going home I'm pumped my algorithm says I can do it Josh
teach me how to be a warrior Josh well you got to be less prideful and work on love and hope
and oh yeah be brave and courageous and like driven ambitious okay
the the the model of warrior masculinity but it doesn't seem very different at all
from the kind of liberal or progressive or epicurean ideas of masculinity mocks if you know you
get the liberals of progressives would be like well yeah let's just be guys who like maybe aren't
assholes all the time and aren't violent and aren't aggressive and aren't domineering it's kind
of what he's saying his warriors humble and loving and exercises hopeful courageous brave attributes
it's a list of virtues I don't think anyone would oppose considered any abstract
which means and this is the kind of the final point that at the end of this chapter like
we've been waiting and waiting and waiting and tell me Josh show me what the warrior is Josh
these are the let's again the masculine virtues that American needs these are the masculine
virtues that will save America these are the roles that men can play that will turn America back
into what it needs to be that will make America great again day it turns out that they're they're
not very Christian and there's nothing specifically Christian about this that's the therapeutic
piece like he could come to this from any number of directions and they don't really have much to
do with being a warrior not in any straightforward sense and that's what happens when you metaphorically
extend something you kind of undercut its literal meaning and that's what he's doing
which brings up the next issue this is an issue we've seen over and over and over in his book
they don't seem to be specifically masculine either are people who aren't men not supposed to
to master their pride should they not be loving should they not be hopeful should they not be courageous
should they not be brave should they not be ambitious like like what is distinctly masculine about
this he can't answer that question so at the end of the day when you boil it all down this chapter
like most of his book it says nothing of substance about masculinity but manages to use a lot of words
doing it you cut through all the words and the verbiage and his folksy stories and whatever and
you find there's just there's no there there we might say so this is the question as we finish
this chapter that leaves us with is what specifically does this give us with the idea of men as warriors
well on one hand if you cut through the rhetoric and the polemics all the places where he's attacking
the liberals and the elites and the new the new epicureans and all of that you cut through all of that
he doesn't have really anything of interest to say and in fact he says a lot of stuff that his
supposed opponents wouldn't probably mind he has nothing to say about distinctly masculine
virtues or the concept of masculinity itself which means he really has nothing to say about the
loss of those either in other words if he can't really tell us what masculinity is or a masculine
virtues are he can't really tell us how it matters if masculinity is somehow lost or attacked
he is giving us an answer of like the kinds of people we should be and maybe what good
Americans should be but the masculinity pieces just falling away but here's the other piece of
this the other side you cut through all the polemics it turns out there's no there there
but that's the point the point of this book is not really masculinity it's not masculine virtue
the point of this book is the polemics it is the argument it is the attack
the point of this book it's not really about defending masculinity against his detractors
or empowering men within a society that is disempower them or whatever that's not really the point
about halfway through his book that's about where we are I think I'm eyeballing it we're like
halfway through his book he still hasn't actually said anything unique about men or masculinity
but I'm arguing that's not really his point the point of the book is to attack anyone who is not
like him it is to attack anyone who is not maga aligned it is to attack anyone who's not a
Christian nationalist it is to attack anyone who doesn't accept his patriarchal vision of society
it is to attack anyone who doesn't accept his theocratic understanding of us law in us policy
it's to attack anyone who affirms the LGBTQ community and on and on and on we could expand that
list that is the point when we boil down the message and find that there's nothing of substance
underneath the polemics that tells us that the aplimp the polemics the attacks the culture war
the character assassination that is the point it is a feature of the argument not a bug all the
rest is misdirection and I think that's the temptation that's what's easy to miss when we read or
engage with people like Josh Holly as we come to that point of recognizing that that there's no
real argument there and we say ah that's what does nothing there no reason to engage in no
reason to look at it what we miss is that it's not really about the argument it's just an attack
it's an attack on anybody Josh Holly doesn't think is a real American or a real Christian and those
are the same thing for him all right we're going to line that up we're going into chapter eight
next time the next role that men are called to play they are called to be are you ready for it
builders the man is called to be a builder I have a hunch that I know exactly exactly sorry I got
I got distracted by the first sentence in the in the chapter there I have a hunch I know exactly
what biblical character he's going to look at if you know how these kind of things work I think
you probably know the biblical text it's going to come along as well we'll start diving into that
next episode in the meantime as always thank you for listening if you're a subscriber thank you
for helping us do the things that we do if you're if you tune into our live events if you come to
the office hours if you do those things thank you we can't do it without you if you're sending me
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