Jerm and Carl Zha Laugh about Their Trip to China

Call Zah, thank you for joining me in the Drenches.

That's always my pleasure, germs.

Dude, the last time we spoke, we were in China.

Yes, we could work.

It was good times.

It was good times.

Have you recovered?

Have you recovered?

I have.

It took me a while by half.

But I'm going back there in two weeks.

I'm actually going back to China in two weeks.

Wait.

Back to my hometown, Chongqing.

So we're going to just before the Chinese New Year.

The Chinese New Year, I think it's February 14th or something.

So I'll be there just before that.

Mara Covery was not really so much the China trip,

but more Ethiopian Airlines flight home.

Was it really that bad?

You know, it depends on how you're coming at this.

OK.

I mean, I'm home, right?

So I'm safe.

I guess that's the first prize.

But it's the process.

It's the journey that could do with the bit of work.

You make it sound like you're packing the plane with like golds and stuff.

What's going on, man?

Or what happened?

Well, all the luggage you're sitting on top of the plane, you know?

No, I'm kidding.

Yeah, I know you're kidding.

Yeah.

Having said that, the airport in Addesa Baba is very impressive.

And I suppose that's also because it was built by the Chinese.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Much of infrastructure in Ethiopian capital is built by the Chinese, actually.

Yeah.

They built the African Union building over there, I believe.

You and I spent almost a month traveling China.

And it was for you, probably just, you know, Wednesday.

But for me, it was enlightening and it turned a lot of what I thought on you upside down.

Yeah.

I mean, it wasn't Wednesday for me.

I actually was my first time back after six years, you know, like I, that was my first

time back after COVID.

And, but, but I, you know, we should really turn that around because I should really be

interviewing you about your experience because I bet, you know, you have more eye-opening

moments in this.

Well, I mean, you're coming from Africa.

Everything in China is amazing.

You know, like, you know, roads and, you know, stuff that works.

My boss very low call, although you did, you did say the, the traffic was chaotic when

we were at our bicycle.

That was mind-blowing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

So, you know, hold on, hold on.

Okay.

So when I arrived in Shanghai, it was, I think it was in the evening.

And I remember messaging you and you were out and about already.

Yeah.

I was so tired and, you know, jet lag, et cetera.

And when you and I met up the next day and we decided to attempt the bicycles around Shanghai,

I thought I was going to die.

I've never seen such bad driving.

Well, there are a lot of new drivers in China because, you know, a lot of people, a lot

of Chinese drivers, this is their first time being a car owner, right?

They just move from bicycles to car.

And so, yeah, that's understandable, but I, for me, I come from a different perspective.

I go from Indonesia to China.

For me, that was orderly.

That was heavenly.

Like, like, like, everybody is staying their lane mostly, and that was pretty impressive.

And also, what you're saying is that they are levels.

I mean, Africa is pretty chaotic, so Indonesia must be next level.

Indonesia is definitely the next level because, because, you know, like, there's a lot of scooters

in Indonesia and they all compete with the cars and the zigzag.

So after I started driving, I bought a car recently this last year.

And after I started driving, I, you know, I really got me to think in these Indonesian

people are very, you know, they're very trustful, they're very, they really have a lot of faith

that I am a good driver, right?

Because they were like, cut right in front of me at the last minute.

I'm like, whoa, that was a big test of my driving skills.

And they really have just very, have a lot of trust that everybody behind the wheels is a good driver.

The other problem, though, is at least here in South Africa, you know where the cars are.

In Shanghai, you don't.

It's too quiet.

Yeah, because it's mostly electric.

There's a lot of electric cars in Shanghai.

That is something actually different for me as well, because again, I came from Indonesia.

So certainly I go from like a very nosy, noisy, very chaotic environment to like a relatively

orderly and quiet place.

And for me, that was a change of scenery as well.

But it just also goes to show that this apparent social credit score that's in China doesn't apply

to the drivers clearly.

No, because we saw many occasions, so scooters just go right, turn right illegally,

we found it the red light, you know, like more than one occasion, yeah.

And I didn't see any of these digital ballboards with their pictures appearing on the screen,

because that's what Western media says.

Then you should be.

I think they should be.

In actual fact, I remember thinking, well, we're sorry,

when in Rome, do as Romans do, and we just were J walking.

I just rode anyway.

I remember just riding into oncoming traffic, because it didn't really matter at the stage.

We all got out alive, you know.

Thanks to our amazing bicycle in skills.

But I mean, I think I hope like you kind of got a glimpse of China as like this

completely different civilizational space, because it's almost like a different planet compared to

like a lot of the Western countries, right?

It's completely different call.

It's very much not what you would see on social media.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And also like for because I think there's such a,

that the Americans do have a lot of soft power.

So I don't think people will be as shocked as much as they go to travel to US or even Europe.

Because a lot, you know, at least we

received by us Moses, what kind of Western society to expect, you know.

But China is very different because there's very little information coming from it.

And so when you go there, it's like you're going there blind.

You know, like, you know, I'm obviously not going there blind, but you were.

Well, I mean Shanghai also, just to be fair, does look like

any other major city in the world.

It's just very clean and very organized other than the traffic.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

That was actually, that was a case even, I was a 20 years ago because I remember

right after September 11th, I was in the summer of 2001.

I was working in Hamburg, Germany.

And then I went to China just one month after September 11th.

And I was in Shanghai and I was like, wow, this street is cleaner than Hamburg.

Because in Hamburg, Germany, you have people

bring their dogs everywhere to the restaurant and there's dog poops everywhere on the street.

That wasn't the case in Shanghai.

Well, although I did go in the time in 2000, the time I went to Shanghai was a time when George

W. Bush was coming to town. So it's possible they cleaned it up for him.

But I already had that impression.

Shanghai was cleaner than a lot of Western cities back in 2001.

George W. Bush, the US president who said, is our children learning?

Well, he has been reputation has been rehabilitated now.

Like this is with American presidents.

No matter how bad you think they are, just going to the future, fast forward to the future,

you'll realize they're always going to be the worst candidates.

You know, like George W. Bush, they are now rehabilitating him

because he's not Trump.

So here we are.

The day that we met up and decided to attempt Chinese traffic with bicycles.

The thing with the with the system there, I don't to this day know what Chinese money looks like

because all we ever used was WeChat and Alipay.

Yeah, most people, you know, I was so spoiled in 2019 when I went to China with all the mobile

payment. I remember, you know, I was on my way flying to Bali. I made a stop in Hong Kong.

And then I wanted to explore the city in Hong Kong.

And so I want to take the metro from the airport.

And they have these coins, coins.

I'm like, what? Who carries coins?

How am I going to get coins?

I have to go to like a finite ATM machine, get the cash out, and then get the cash

converting into coins to use and coins.

It feels like I was stepping from 21st century back to the 20th century.

I mean, that's how I fell back in 2019.

And even the time we went to China, I was so confident I know how things work.

I remember like I show you how we could take the subway, right?

The metro, yeah, we're using the metro.

Yeah, yeah, we're using the metro.

I was like showing I was like acting like the expert.

Oh, like you go to the ticketing machine and then you select your destination.

And then you will tell you how much it costs.

And then you just scan with your WeChat and then you just pay the exact amount

and spit out a plastic card with that value and you scan it.

So that is the way that I knew how it worked back in 2019.

So that's how I did it when we were there in 2025.

And I was actually complaining that it was not very intuitive because they had two machines.

One machine just showed you the route and how much it will cost.

And then you have to go to the machine next door to actually, you know, pay.

So I thought that was, that was, yeah, exactly why.

So later after our trip was over, I went to my hometown, Song Qing.

And I met up with a bunch of ex-pat friend of mine who had been living in China for like 20 years.

And they saw me doing that and they're like, to Carl, what are you doing, man?

What are you doing? So he's like, give me your phone.

I give them phone. He's like, look, go to your WeChat.

There's a mini app here called Metro.

Click on it and then put in this your current city, Song Qing.

You will generate a QR code.

And once you have that QR code, you just use that QR code to scan yourself in.

And automatically deducts a month.

I was like, oh, see, I didn't know that.

I was still doing this, doing the way I was back in 2019.

That's how I knew how to navigate.

But apparently, you know, China already moved down in the last six years.

What is most stereotypical than a Chinese guy on a bicycle?

Well, I feel like this is the image the most people have of China.

Like the China back in the 1970s, 1980s when the main mode of transportation is still bicycle.

But it's actually quite quite different today, of course, because like I said,

a lot of people are now moving into cars, which cause whole set of new problems,

because they're new drivers. And there you go.

Well, I'm one of the new drivers, a white African riding a bicycle in China.

For the first time, yeah.

One of the questions that will obviously come up is you're in a city day

of what, 26 million people. There are no people in this photograph.

Well, the day we were out, there was still some.

Well, we were there in like late September, but it was on

usually hot heat, hot heat wave hit Shanghai, because when we weren't there,

like you will be drenched, just walking like 10 minutes.

And it was so hot, people are trying to stay in the shade.

There's not going to have many people standing in the song in the middle of the day,

because you would just pass out.

I think that's one reason. Also, we went at the time.

We were like, we're tourists, man. People, real people in Shanghai that have to go to work.

We were there on a weekday. We were also there on a weekday. So there's that.

On the one hand, you have this very advanced city that Shanghai is. And then you showed me

this street.

Yeah, we went, we took some back alleys, you know, because we're navigating by bicycles.

And you know, this is a lot of, a lot of this kind of juxtaposition in China, the old and new.

And Shanghai, obviously, you know, he has been the wrong for more than 100 years.

You know, Shanghai was the city of Shanghai really came to being back, back in like

1860s, you know, after the Second European War. So, so, you know, you still have a lot of

old buildings. Like, a lot of these buildings, you see like in the fourth foreground,

those are probably from dates from like 1930s, 1940s, you know, like almost 100 years old.

And of course, the building in the background, those are a lot newer.

I just want to, at this point, say, call that this conversation has been sponsored by the CCP.

And President Xi, if you're watching this, please, I'm still waiting for my check to clear

in the mail, you know, send them anytime. I mean, we only spent a few days in Shanghai.

And then a real, because so this was the funny part. So I was in Hong Kong a few months

earlier, and that is China. But as many Chinese say, it's not really China. Then you go

to Shanghai, and it's more Chinese. But the Chinese will say, no, that's not really China.

Remember that. Shanghai is the most westernized Chinese city on mainland China.

Right. Of course, Hong Kong is even more westernized because by the virtual being a British colony

for 100, more than 100 years. But yeah, there are different levels of being Chinese,

as you find out, because you know, you didn't understand that because when you're in Shanghai,

you said to you, everything just looked very Chinese. And I assure you, there's different levels.

Well, I mean, I didn't really understand anything because very few people speak English.

I mean, I had to use a translator app or you.

Yeah. Yeah, or me. Well, that's the thing because China is so large and it has a large

population. So in a way, unlike a lot of the smaller country that cater to foreign tourists,

you know, a lot of locals didn't have to pick up English, right? The expectations that you

will make the effort trying to try to fit in, not vice versa. And like I said, China is a whole

complete different civilization of space. You know, once you're in China, you're like the new world.

When I came back, I received a huge amount of pushback because I didn't

trash China. I didn't say that it was some some totalitarian hellhole. And we knew this was coming

our stall, told you when we were in China. I said, wait, wait until I get back and watch and watch

the backlash. So I also want to point out that when you and I rode around on bicycles, we had

a security guard who was taking us everywhere and making sure that we were only looking in the

direction that he was pointing. We were completely controlled. Yeah, our head can only like

sit in one direction. We can't even like slight movement of the head was not allowed.

You know, otherwise a laser will zap our face to put us on the right track.

So then we went on our real trip, which was joining up with Pepe Escobar to kind of follow his

silk road journey. And you know, part of the documentary that was being made.

And we did a whole bunch of cities and we rent. We went right across to the Western side and we

really saw a very different side of China. And firstly, the food in my opinion was better

on the on the Western side. But it was a lot more rural. And people forget that. When they

think of China, they just think of mega cities like Shanghai.

Yeah, there's, I mean, China is huge. So there will be like mega cities like Shanghai,

like Beijing, like Guangzhou on the coast. But there's plenty of other parts of China that's not

mega city. And we actually traveled like, let's see, we spend almost like a month, maybe like two,

three weeks. And we drove, I asked our driver. He said we drove 3500 square, 3500 kilometers in those

two weeks. Yeah. Like I, I developed a lot of iron. It still hurts. But I, you know, I think,

yeah, well, we met up with, uh, with obviously oppressed weggers. As you can see in this

photograph, um, the sad thing is that there was a firing squad waiting for these two

weggers, uh, after this photograph. Uh, so, uh, may they rest in peace?

Right. Yeah. So we, we, we, that was in Wulum Chi, the capital, uh, when we, when we first

arrived, uh, that's the day when we met up with my, uh, uh, uh, Twitter follower. Look, uh, he's,

very nice, uh, British chap who is, uh, who is, um, teaching English in Wulum Chi. Uh, he actually

got his PhD in Shanghai. But while he was waiting for his graduation ceremony, he was just

bombing around in Xinjiang because he loved it so much. Uh, you know, and apparently he has a

local girlfriend. And so he was, he didn't speak a little bit Uyghur. So he, he was taking us to all

the, you know, the Uyghur part of the town to sample the authentic Uyghur food. And then he took

us to the touristy area where all the tourists go, where you bought some souvenir for your wife,

I believe. Ah, yes, that was actually very, that, that was a pleasant surprise because we were

there because he was, uh, you know, touristy place. We were, we were, we were just traveling through

the, uh, the, the, the, the itinerary our tour guide, uh, set out for us. But these two Uyghur

girls just came up to us because you and Pepe Escobar stood out because there were very few

foreigners there. So they came up there and wanted to practice English. And so I think Pepe

actually took that photo, uh, of me and you. And, and so we actually have a spontaneous conversation.

They're not, you know, you know, they're, I, I, they're not CCP agents who are track, who are

tracking us, right? They're just like eight, eight year old girls, uh, because they were bored.

There were not many tourists in that area. So they were like bored, uh, at their parents shop. So

they just decided to follow us around. But their mother got nervous about us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah,

they're holding back. Yeah, the, the parents called them back after a while. Yeah.

We also traveled through the desert and the, the, uh, Takne Makan desert. It's a huge desert

that very few people know about. It's the second largest moving desert in the world, if I'm correct,

call. Yeah. Second largest moving sand desert after Sahara. Uh, it was huge. And we, we travel

right across it. We drove on the highway that went straight across the desert itself. Uh,

which is pretty impressive. We actually went inside the desert, which I don't recommend. Uh, we

spend about three hours driving through sand dunes. Yeah. And that's three hours back

through the same sand dunes. That was a rough day. Thank goodness we had the, we had what,

a Toyota, it was a Toyota highlight. No, no, fortunate. What did we have? Land cruiser.

Uh, uh, land, land, land, land cruiser, I think. Yeah. Yeah, we weren't driving Chinese.

We were driving Japanese. That would have made the locals feel a little bit more aggro.

What we did see a lot of other, other people driving the Chinese tanks, the, not tanks,

not tanks. That's the same SUV. Not that literal tanks, but, uh, but, uh, the tank 300.

The tank 300. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks 300. Yeah. Thanks 300. There were, there were, uh,

all the one tank 300 failed to climb climb that sand dunes challenge. We saw them trying to go

up a sand. You, you, you slide back. We're at the last moment. So, so yeah.

Yeah. Um, I might have a photograph of us when we were in that, in that, uh,

desert exactly where that tank 300 was. But I mean, that is also an entirely different experience.

No sulfur and signal at all. Yeah. Well, that was unusual for China. Yeah. That was actually

first time in China than we didn't have any cell phone signals. Um, so yeah.

Yeah. But, but, but the thing is once we arrive at our destination in that quote-unquote

isolated village with 100 people, we see this giant signal tower, a cell phone signal tower

right there, right? Yeah. So you also photographed of you, Carl. Nice. Would you mind telling us what

you were doing? No. Did you, did you, did you, did you film me peeing in the desert?

That's not a very, that's a water. I was giving water. No.

One of the other fascinating things about, um, the drive through the desert was how they kept the

sand off the road. Yeah. Yeah. So that was key because, uh, it's, it is a moving sand desert because

the, the wind would just blow the sand everywhere. So in order for the road not to be buried,

as soon as it was been built, they had to find a way to fix the sand on both sides of the road.

And they come up with this thing, what Pepe calls the Chinese magic square. It's a, it's a grid made of

straws and they have a series of, uh, straw grids that just enough to block, to kind of slow down

the sand moving in. And they also have some strawberries, uh, and, and, and fences as well on the,

either side of the road. So that keeps the sand from encroaching on the road itself. I mean,

it's fairly very effective because we drove through the whole thing.

Um, this was the tank 300 that got stuck on the sand.

Almost. It's so close. It almost made it. But at the last moment, it's just starting back.

Yeah, it's slid back. Uh, that is a great car, by the way. I nearly bought a tank 300.

I'm so impressed with it, but I did buy a Chinese car, but not, but not the tank.

Oh, what did you buy it? Have you heard of Jettua? No, I have not.

Uh, well, that's what I got. Uh, great vehicle. It's owned by the cherry group, uh, which is one of the

competitors to do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, cherry is pretty good. It's a pretty good brand. Yeah.

They're doing good. Um, but that are, I remember how driving through that desert really,

really got to us by the end of the day. We were like, if we can just get on to tour road.

I remember you were, you were just, you were taking a serious knock in the car. I remember.

That was rough, man. I almost got seasick. I almost got a motion sickness. It's like,

I think one hour of off road in San Dune will be fun. It will be fun. Uh, it was fun to the first

hour, but after that, I was just trying to get a bit much. I just try to survive. After that,

I just try to survive. Yeah. But that was us driving to that, uh, to that village of 100 people.

I mean, it's literally driving on a dried, we're driving on a dry lake bed. So it was relatively flat.

Instead of us going up and down the sand dunes and, you know, that, that actually was nice shy.

It looks like a car commercial, you know, this, that was a literal free endorsement for Toyota right

there. Um, there was a funny moment. I remember, um, I've got the photo here when we were, when

we stopped in the desert to, to take a photo, you and me. And, um, just before this photograph,

as I was, I was standing barefoot and I told you, call, be a man. Uh, take off your shoes.

And I couldn't stand in that sand for, for more than 10 seconds. I had to run back to the car.

It was way too hot. It was, it can't get pretty hot. People fry eggs on those sand, you know,

in the summertime, the locals, they actually one of the, that's what they sell the tourists,

you know, the sand fry eggs. It just, it just like eggs are putting the sand for like 30 minutes

and it's done. Um, you were talking about buying my wife something and what I bought for her was

this. I think we were in cash car. Ah, yes, yes, we were in cash car. Um, so what's the history

of cash car, cash car very quickly and why do these dresses matter? Oh, so these are actually,

the, this may find the type of silk that's with the traditional pattern local to Xinjiang area.

It's called Atlas silk. And so they're, they're pretty famous. I mean, at least in China,

that like this is very, um, characteristic of the Uyghur silk patterning. It's, it's a type of

tie-dine process. They use, uh, like natural herbs, um, to, to, to, to bring out the color. We,

we went to the factory, you know, where they have the whole silk production from cocoon to actually

make weaving them into, into clothes. Yeah. So they're, they're handmade and it's pretty impressive.

Like, yeah, I mean, it is handmade. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there you can see, but literally making it by hand.

Yeah. And you can see another piece of fabric hanging on the wall. That did the pattern. That's

just like the local traditional Uyghur silk pattern. So the, the, when the silk, um, travel west,

you know, the Xinjiang was the first stop. Uh, you know, that that's, there's, there's actually a myth

about the, the whole story. Supposedly, the, um, they, the, there was a Chinese princess

was on her way to be married to the Prince of Persia, to the King of Persia. And when they're

traveled to the border area, uh, they realize she's pregnant. And they realize, oh crap, we cannot

complete a mission, a board, a board, a board, a board of mission, a board of mission. So they

had that the baby was not awarded. That the baby was born locally. And he, they, they founded their

own kingdom in the region. And the princess also smuggled the silkworm eggs in her hair. So that's

how the silk, uh, cultivation spread in the region. That, that was a local legend. And, uh, yeah.

Call what's going on here? We are, I think we're in the carpet factory. This is in cash car. And,

and behind us, those are like hand woven, uh, traditional carpet. You know, these, just like the,

those Persian carpet or, you know, carpet from Afghanistan, the Xinjiang, they also have a local

tradition of weaving carpet. You know, it's very central Asian. And, uh, we're sitting in one of the

large, larger, you know, uh, carpet pieces. This is what makes China very interesting. Um,

it's sheer size means that you're going to end up with a vastly different Chinese people

on the left hand side to the right hand side. That's correct. I mean, China traditionally had

been a empire for thousands of years. And he incorporated a lot of different people and, and

different groups. So, you know, people, um, you know, peeps, a lot of people go to Xinjiang. Their first

remark is like, oh, this didn't feel like China because they usually have a, um, a strong stereotypical

idea what China should be. It should be like water buffaloes and people in like pointed straw hats

and stuff like that. But Xinjiang is very central Asian because, you know, it's, it is part of

central Asia. And, you know, it has a deep cultural ties to, to the neighboring countries like Kazakhstan,

Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikstan, etc. And, and in fact, in fact, it is the hub of the Silk Road.

You know, all the Silk Road that link China to the west, it all goes through Xinjiang.

And now the Belt and Road. Now the belt, I mean, if, in fact, the belt and road,

belt and road is a short for, uh, Silk Road economic belt and marine times Silk Road. So,

this is Belt and Road is China's, uh, attempt to revive ancient Silk Road links.

You mentioned Tajikistan. Wasn't it funny how they thought I was a Tajik?

So, okay, so for our audience, we went, when we went through the border, so there's a lot of

security checks in Xinjiang. But most of them, we just got waved through, you know, like,

they just asked us to lower, lower our windows, you know, looks through the

camera where they do AI facial recognition, I'm sure. And then, then, they just send us on our way,

you know, they just tell us, okay, buckle your safety belt, please. And so, but when we got

closer to the border, there's much tighter security. So, um, Pepe and our Russian photographer,

who is very blonde and blue eyed, they got stopped at almost every checkpoint to show their

passport, you know, white, they're there. And we're as you and me, we were sending the same

bar, we just got waved through. So, after a while, we're like, what do they think? Who do they

think you are? Like, how come they didn't ask you for your passport? So, we figured they must

thought you are local. You're, you're low, maybe they thought you are local, Tajik.

And then you asked our driver and he said, yes, they thought I was Tajik. Yeah.

My people need me call. You want to see your people. You want to connect with your roots in China.

But of course, China is not all, you know, technological advancement. I mean, we had to endure this.

Ah, yes. Yeah. So, so that's that's very typical. I mean, most of the places that

they have squat toilet, you know, like a lot of Chinese people prefer squat toilet,

because then their, their, their butts don't have to touch the same surface. Many other people's

butts have touched. So, it's a, it's a, it's a matter of preference, you know, matter of preference.

But I understand the squatting keeps you fit. Yes. I understand can be difficult for Westerners,

because, you know, Westerners are not used to squatting. Like, we're, we're, the Asians were,

used to the Asian squat from very young age. So, so it's natural for us. But I understand,

you know, maybe, maybe people, Western people need to do more yoga, you know, like, so you can,

so you can squat down and, and be the, on your flat of your feet. Another thing that I really

loved about China is how based they are. You know, they don't, they don't mess around when they

show you a lady's toilet. I mean, yeah, we have a ballerina. And then gentlemen.

China is also very diverse. I mean, okay, look, so it's got a huge horn population.

But on the Western side, it has multiple other populations. And this leads to geopolitical conflict.

I mean, like, like I said, right, the, the thing is, I don't know why people expect China

to be an ethanol state. China is not an ethanol state, you know, even in Chinese constitution,

it says, it's a multi-ethnic country. And it has always been a multi-ethnic empire

throughout the thousands of years of history. And it, and the whole idea of, you know, like,

a nation state should be like a monolithic, like, ethanol state. I mean, that, that itself is

pretty new. You know, that, that only started like with World War I in Europe when they,

you know, start doing like, ethnic cleansing. So to make nice knee borders with like one single

ethnic group, you know, most of the human society, I think you most, most places live in a kind of,

you know, multi-ethnic empire or one way or another.

Then there was a very informative part of the trip. And that was driving up to almost four

and a half thousand meters above sea level and sitting on a yacht.

Yeah, so we were, this is the white sand lake in Xinjiang. We, it was really cold because

it's high elevations. It was, the wind was blowing. It was really, really cold. But the local,

so a lot of tourists will stop by at that spot because from that spot, you have the, the entire

view of the lake. And so a lot of people stop by take pictures. And the local curgee is herdsman,

you know, being enterprise pricing entrepreneurs. They just set up their camps there. You know,

they brought their yurts to, and their yaks. And they rent out their yaks for tourists for photographs.

And then, and they, they take photo for you, you know, they charge a little bit extra. But so,

yeah, we all got our photos taken. It was, it was fun experience.

Yeah, but I mean, another beautiful part of that is the color of that water.

Yeah, because there's a lot of minerals that came from the glacier melt, from the Tansai mountains.

That's what gave that very intense green color. And, and because also we are at high elevation,

the sun is last stronger. Now, I didn't even realize that until like I sent my pictures back to my

wife and my wife's like, Oh, did you apply sunscreen? Your glasses already turned dark. You

know, the UV must be really strong. It was true. Like, the sun is quite intense. That's why we

saw a lot of solar farms when we were there. Yeah, we traveled through like miles and miles or

kilometers and kilometers of solar farms, because there's a lot of solar energy in Xinjiang.

I keep in mind, again, we were almost four and a half thousand meters above sea level. That's

more than double the height of Janusburg. And Janusburg is considered quite high, you know,

in South African terms. And that's very good. Well, remember, they gave us, they gave us oxygen tanks

in case. Yes. Yes. And they have entrepreneurs who at 4,000 meters sea level selling tourist oxygen

tanks, because you know, being Chinese, they never missed a chance to to make some money. And

it was, it was nice. It was nice. Like, because I was, um, uh, uh, uh, uh, Pepe decided to

challenge himself to, um, to walk to the lookout point, uh, at 4,200 meters above sea level.

And I was about to follow his footsteps. But, you know, I think it was you. Was it you that you

told me you got to breathe in deeply? So when I tried to breathe in deeply, and suddenly, I was

like having a little panic attack, because I was like, I feel like I wasn't getting enough oxygen.

So I grabbed the oxygen canister. That's the only time I used it. But it was quite nice to have it,

to have that option. I didn't, yeah, I didn't use the oxygen, but I remember feeling a bit light-headed.

Yeah. Yeah. Because that level, yeah, I was happy to be at the bottom.

At that level, the oxygen level in the air is only like 50% of the air at the sea level.

So yeah. Call one of the greatest moments, one of the greatest moments in China.

Was this? Oh, you guys were, you guys were starving for some hamburgers. Uh, like we were,

I remember, um, when we were traveling in Xinjiang, you know, like you and both you and Pepe,

you're like, uh, we'll be dying for some hamburger. And then next thing we know, we drove through,

we drove through like a roadside restaurant, they served yak burgers. It was good. And it was good,

it was good, right? Yeah, it was very good. I think we bought like three or four

of different different kinds. We bought a whole bunch. Yeah, we bought some of the drive.

Where was that though? I'm trying to remember now. Uh, that, that's the Tash Kurgan. Uh, that's

when we, when we went, when we'd start climbing toward the Pakistan border. So, so our way back,

our way back from Tash Kurgan back to Kashgar. Uh, but yeah, we're in some mountain road. And

there was on the side of the road, there's a burger of joy. That was great.

Uh, yes, you call, uh, with a wiga hat or a Tajik. Yeah. Yeah, she's, she's a wiguer. Uh, so we,

this is a night we spent in Tash Kurgan. And so the hotel we stay, they have these like little

cultural introduction, right? They, there's a wiguer host and there's like a bunch of Tajik

dancers and they all invite us to do the dance. And then this is our picture afterwards. So,

I was wearing a, a Tajik hat like made from sheep wool, I think. Yeah.

Again, sadly, I think she was, you know, put in front of the firing squad later that night.

Yes, yes. That was her last performance.

Where does this idea come from that wigs of being killed by the Chinese government?

Well, I think there's a lot of projection when people talk about China, right? When, when people

because they, they feel like, okay, um, because US was founded on genocide of Native Americans,

slavery of imported Africans. So China must also been doing some shady stuff, right? Like,

this is kind of a, when I talk to a, our black American Muslim friend, Dana, who took us

around Shanghai, he calls it the universalization of oppression. So they think, okay, they,

the Chinese, if they, we know the US government is bad, doing bad things, but the Chinese must be

must be worse, if not as bad, right? So I think it's that assumption. And the fact that there were

some security crackdown in Xinjiang because the tourism incident that happened. And so,

a lot of the, and the fact that there just not many information coming out of Xin, coming

out of China in general, I think that allowed created this informational vacuum where people can

easily wage this information campaigns, you know, against China, you know, to say there is

a Uyghur genocide, which is completely bogus, you know, giving what's actually happening in Gaza

and what we saw Xinjiang in our trip, you know, this, that claim is, does not hold any water.

You know, like, because we were walking through, yeah, exactly, like all these people down there,

they're Uyghurs, this is, we actually went to Uyghur wedding in Kashgar, this one of the last night

there. So, so, it was interesting to have, like, the, the man and the woman, they have the separate

dance circles. So, that was a groom that's been surrounded by friends and relatives and they all,

you know, go up to him and challenging him to a dance-off. And during the dance-off, they will give

him stuff money into his pocket. So, my question is, what if his pocket is not big enough, you know,

what if, what if, what if he, like, there's more money than the, how much he's pocket could hold,

but somehow they made it work. Dude, that was a party of note that we go wedding.

I don't know how those people got in there. I think, I think those two were shot after, right,

or executed right after the wedding. But I mean, that was a serious party. I've never seen

a wedding like that. That was, that was, you know, it's, the restaurant owner actually figured out

a really good scheme. So, he apparently, he allowed the first floor to be, to be useful wedding

venue. But he must, you know, got the, the wedding couple to agree, maybe give them a discount

or something to, to allow the restaurant patrons on the second floor to be spectators, you know,

so we could be there and participate and take photos. And so, it was great. It was a great

atmosphere. We, this was the second wedding we went. We, we, we ran into it because in,

Terpon, I don't know if you weren't there because we got back to Terpon really late.

And then we, we noticed there's loud music in the lobby. And we saw some women like dressed

very nice. And then we, we, we, we, we saw in one, the hotel, like they're, I went, I

went upstairs to call my wife. Yeah. Yeah. Because we, so we did, we just started to start peaking

in and we realized it's a wedding reception. And then Mia, I was with Pepe Escobar and the hotel

receptionists saw what we're doing. They're like, just go in. We're like, really? Yeah,

they're like, go in. We're like, okay, we take photos and shoot. They're like, yeah, yeah,

just go in. And we went in. It was great. And we just got to the dance off part where the,

the phone were circular around the groom and another circle around the bride. You know,

all the groomsman are dancing with the groom and the bride's made dancing with the bride.

I got that on video. It was great. And, and so after that, our tour guy said, okay, we'll,

we'll find a traditional Uighur wedding for you to go. And they found on Chinese social media,

you know, this restaurant in cash card, that does this kind of thing. They, they host weddings and

they allow the restaurant guests to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to spectate from the second floor.

So that's where we went to. And it was great time. And just as a reminder, they are weger police

in weger territory. Yeah, like the, the thing is all the reporting, right? They, they always

try to create this falsehood dichotomy. Like the Chinese police are oppressing the Uighur people.

Well, when you go travel there, you realize most of the local police are also Uighur. And they're

very professional. They're very, very polite. We, because there's one time in Yarkhan on our way

to cash card, we did get pulled off for passport checks because, you know, Pepe Escobar and,

and our Russian photography. Yeah, yeah, yeah, give blow our cover. So, so at that time,

we, they did check our passport, but they were very apologetic. They're sorry we have to do this,

you know, like, like, we really apologize. And they sent us on our way. They're very, very nice.

And even according to Stan, our Russian photographer, he said the, the Xinjiang police were nicer

and more polite than the Shanghai police. So, but yeah, that was our experience.

When we were in the desert, I just remembered now. We saw a very interesting rock.

Yes. Yes. I mean, it's, yeah, it's kind of firm, isn't it? It rises up.

It's very wrecked. Yes. Yes. And everybody was taking photographs in front of this rock.

Yeah. Me, yours truly included.

Look at that. That was where the police actually came to inspect our footage.

Yeah, because we went in a particularly sensitive time, because we, the time we went was right

around the national day. And also you just so happened that on the national day, that was like

the 50th anniversary of the founding of the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region. So Xi Jinping was in

tongue to visit. And because of that, as part of security measure, they had a blanket drone butt

band across most of the Xinjiang. And so we thought, we thought we're out here in the middle of nowhere

in a canyon of the desert. You know, who's going to know? And then so we, we, we had our Russian

photographer flew the drones and then 23, half hour later, the police can't find us. Like,

whatever you guys doing, man. Did you know there's a drone butt band? All right. Oh, shit.

So I think what, according to our photographer theory, Stan is that all these drones, they all

have to send their coordinates. Right. And so they would know instant, a drone has taken off. And so

so we got smart later. So instead of using our own drones, we saw these Chinese tourists

who are flying their drone. So we asked them to take a video of us and send to us a wechat. Yeah.

And then while we were driving through the desert call, in the middle of nowhere, there are these

statues of horses. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This was like a high, almost like a highway

rest stop or like a lookout point where you kind, you know, park your car on the side of the road

and go through a restroom. I don't, I don't know what the statue of the horses are, you know, like

what their significance. But it was just that's where we stopped. This is where we stopped in the

right in the dead center of Takamakan Desert. And yeah. And just to be clear, we drove for 11

hours on that road through sand. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was tiring. It is, I mean, it is, I

ask our driver, he said that's what traveling in Xinjiang is like because Xinjiang is such a huge

place. It's basically the size of Alaska. A lot of time you are, you're just going from point A to

point B, you know, from one, one tourist spot to the next and there's like hours of driving in

between. It is just what it is. Automated people mover, which is just another way of saying a train.

Right. I think it's like a, it's someone used probably used like a, not Google translate,

but this Chinese equivalent to do like a machine translation. This is what you get.

But yes, what's funny, it's actually logical. I mean, it was automated in the sense that it had no

driver and it, you know, was moving people. Yeah. I mean, that's what literally means in Chinese.

That's why it literally means in Chinese. It's just literally translating into English.

By the way, I hear this competition now for the most advanced city, not being Shanghai,

but actually being Chengdu. I mean, it's a tier one city now. Oh, well, okay. These are so

called the new tier one cities. I mean, basically, they just upgraded all the tier formerly tier two

cities and they call them new tier one cities now. It's kind of tourism promotion. I think,

I mean, Chengdu is very nice. I have traveled to Chengdu after you. You know, you made stop by at the

airport, but I actually did a day trip to Chengdu afterwards. It's very nice. It's a very nice city.

And the price is a lot cheaper than Shanghai because Chengdu is much more inland. But you know,

what Chengdu is most famous for in China is known as the gay capital of China.

What? I don't know that. Yeah, it's a, it's gay friendly city. That's what it is.

Where were we? When we were at that coffee shop, where we saw that flaming gay guy, the flaming gay

wiga. We were in Kucha, which is a small today by Chinese standard, a small city, you know, like,

like now, but like a like a tourist stop on the Xinjiang tours of circuit. And we found this very

nice coffee shop that's serving coffee and playing jazz music. And as we were relaxing on the

long shares, and you point out to me, it's like, Carl, did you see that flaming guy? I was like,

yeah, he's definitely flaming. But you know, he's, he probably was able to, you know, present

himself in such a way only in more recent years because Xinjiang in the old times was like a very

how do I say like a traditional conservative Muslim place, right? I mean, that he will look very

out of place. But I guess today it's okay, you know, he was just out in the open, you know, like

people just look at him and know he's gay. And yeah, we will probably get accused of painting China

with rose tinted glasses in this discussion. But I think it is true to say that China is like

from my experience, most other countries, it's a country with nuance. It has lots of good things,

and it has lots of bad things. It absolutely has a dark underbelly. What country doesn't?

And it's got its own problems for sure. And I am from Africa, and I do prefer living in Africa.

I'm used to what I have. I all I know is a broken infrastructure, but there is a sense of

freedom that comes with with our chaos. But at the same time, there is something incredible about

the order and the hierarchy that you see in China. And I'd be very happy to import some of that

here. I'm not wild about all those cameras. And I'm not certain either a call how effective they

are because London has millions of cameras too. And it has a huge crime problem. So I'm not entirely

certain if cameras are just theater. Well, that's a good question. Now you kind of ask the question is,

you know, so in China, the rationale for the camera is public safety, right? And people say, well,

Cam, because of camera, now people are actually lining up. They're not j walking and stuff. They're

still working on that. But like you said, London has just as many cameras and there's still a very

crime written city. Why is that? Well, I think it has to also come down to enforcement. You know,

if you have cameras and you don't do jack shit about actually enforcing the law and then what's

the point? And I think, you know, this is a difference between China and London or New York

is it's not just the cameras. You actually need a effective law enforcement.

But my point was that I don't think China is somehow more totalitarian and hellhole-ish

than other countries. I would, I mean, I would say that it's on par with its pros and its cons and

it has beautiful things and it has bad things. And there's nothing wrong in celebrating the beautiful

things either. China is just a normal country. It's just different. It's a normal country like any

other country, but it's just very different because it's very have a very different culture,

very different history and different language obviously. So that's why when people go there,

you feel like you're in another world, another civilizational space, but fundamentally just like

any other country. It has problems. It also has its good sides. And for us tourists who travel

to China, you know, we are just reporting what we saw, you know, on the limited time that we spend

there. I mean, everything works. Mostly everything works. Trained wrong on time. And, you know, so

whatever you think about Chinese government policies that primarily affects Chinese citizens

living in China. Me? Because I have a US passport? I could care less what China do in China.

And, and, and for me, I have more, I'm more concerned by my own government for the US government

reading through my emails and, and, and because they actually have jurisdiction over me, you know,

they they have I have I'm obligated to pay taxes to Uncle Sam every year. So I would be more

worried about US and China just for the simple fact that Chinese government have no jurisdiction

over me. So I don't understand why people outside of China would be, you know, somehow scared of

the big back China. An American economist, a friend of ours whose name we won't mention because he

asked to remain anonymous. But we went and had supper with him in Shanghai. And he's lived in China

for almost three years. And, and he was saying that his kid has been asked by the US government to,

to get an American passport. And he's like, no, no, I want him to have a Chinese passport because

despite Xi Jinping having his problems, he'd rather have those problems than the American problems.

Yeah, he, he, he, he's was very clear with us. He didn't like Xi Jinping, he hates Xi Jinping.

But even so, he'd rather that his kid only have Chinese passport, then have, you know,

have American passport. So I think that, that, that speaks volumes.

I haven't met, in my personal experience, anybody who's been to China and has come back and said,

man, that is a terrible country. Nobody. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, a lot of people

now, I was going to say there is a dude on YouTube who is called Serpent ZA. But I mean, he's,

he's funded, I think, to, to, to push out anti-China propaganda. He had a bad experience

a few years ago. And now he hates China. I, I think, you know, he figured out what get him most

money for, you know, how, how, how to best monetize his YouTube channels because if you,

if you figure out if you make China bad videos, he will get more views. His videos are more

promoted, you know, and, and it's kind of positive reinforcement, right? I mean, so, so, so,

you then you make more, more China bad videos because that's what your audience want to see.

But it's, it doesn't mean it's routine reality because he himself haven't been in China for many

years. He moved to United States. So all this time, he's like talking to you from like a basement

somewhere and, and, and, and, and, and talking about this China that exists in people's imaginations.

I also didn't mind using WeChat. I know that it has a lot of criticism, but I don't need it

outside of China. So I only used it when I was in China. My only criticism of WeChat is,

you know, I, I do think they have, they must have some security loopholes because somehow these

Chinese scamming, uh, tell us scam groups got hold of my number. I mean, I don't need them

way, I could think they could got hold of my number's pie through some kind of WeChat leak

because I keep on getting calls. There's, in Chinese, I have a package waiting for me at the Chinese

consulate. I'm like, why would I have a package waiting for me in the Chinese consulate,

right? Because apparently they, they, they somehow knew I was Chinese, but they didn't know that I

don't have a Chinese passport. And so I have no reason to go to the Chinese consulate for anyway.

Go ahead. It was really funny that you Chinese and in China, you couldn't use WeChat,

but I'm Tajik. So I could use WeChat. That's right. But that was quite funny. I mean,

you couldn't get your WeChat working. Well, my WeChat is working. It's the WeChat payment. Uh,

it's sometimes, sometimes it's janky because, because my WeChat is, um, it's, it's complicated

because my WeChat, uh, only in the last few years, China have made it that you can link your

foreign bank cards with WeChat and Alipay, you know, which, that you, you were able to use. But

when I was in China in 2019, that was not the case. So what I did was I asked my auntie to open

a bank account for me, but under her name, that was linked to my, which is a Chinese bank. Uh,

it's a Chinese bank. So it was linked to my WeChat. But what happened is then there's other apps,

sometimes they need identity verification. So when I try to use a DD app, which calls the taxi

from WeChat, it wants to take, it wants me to take a picture to do facial recognition to make sure

I'm, I am what I said I was. And I don't look exactly like my aunties. That's why you look

nothing like it. It's like two different people.

But yeah, uh, how can my audience follow you? Well, I now have my own show on UK column, um,

you know, like I, um, have a show every Monday, Monday, Wednesday and Friday, um, about, I think

they're push out around 9 p.m. UK time. Um, and, and I also have my own YouTube channel as well.

You know, people can just search my name, Karl Zah. And I'm also a very prolific ship poster on Twitter.

Just look for my handle, Karl Zah. So I don't take Twitter seriously. So you shouldn't

use it unless what I tweeted is true. Then do take it serious. Karl Zah, thank you for joining me

in the trenches. Anytime, jerks.