Jesse Metcalfe: The OG 2000s Heartthrob

The following podcast is a deer media production.

Welcome back to the Not Skinny Bonafat podcast.

I'm your host Amanda Hirsch, and I still can't believe that I get to chat with some of my favorite stars.

I'm a very own podcast where you'll feel like you're just talking shit with your best friends and your living room.

Okay, okay, okay, happy Tuesday.

Welcome back to the new episode of Not Skinny Bonafat.

The superhero Amanda, how's everybody doing?

We're post-asker Sundays, which by the way, I always watch.

Like I even got into fights with people yesterday.

Like my family was like, okay, but you don't watch.

You only care about the red carpet.

So I was like, I watch.

Okay, it is my job.

And I'm obsessed.

I look, you know, and then I didn't watch.

Oh my god.

Like literally in that afternoon, I'm defending it.

I'm literally like, of course I watch.

I don't even care about the red carpet.

And there I was just looking at the red carpet looks, which by the way, we're so underwhelming.

Like there are a few good ones, but it was just like underwhelming.

I don't know.

And then waking up this morning, because obviously the vanity fair after party has passed my bedtime here in New York.

And then I wake up to the vanity fair party and I'm like, well, wow.

And it's like everybody should have worn that outfit to the Oscars.

You know what I mean?

And it just like, and also like that just seems like fun.

I feel like people can chill.

Like it's a party.

So I feel like the energy on the carpet is like different, you know.

And plus you don't only just have the nominees.

You have like the Kendall Jenner and the Kim Kardashian, the Haley Bieber, like of it all.

So it just seemed like so much fun and also just better outfits.

Do we feel bad for Timothy Chalamet who didn't win?

And like I've talked to people about this like on the side of my life, because this is what I do.

But like do we think that like the ballet opera of it all and like all of his press and, you know,

the fact that people were kind of getting the egg or not liking what he was saying,

can that affect winning the Oscar?

You know what I mean?

And like on the same breath, like Sean Penn won Best Supporting and people were pissed like,

why would you give to somebody who didn't even, you know, care to show up?

And it's like because they were voting on like Best Supporting Actor.

And they thought he was Best Supporting Actor.

Like I'm naive that way.

Like we're voting, you know, and we're vote.

I'm think I'm part of the economy.

And they vote it by the way Sean Penn was stellar in one battle after another.

Like stellar.

He was wow, like you literally like saw him on the screen and you were your whole body 10th stuff.

He was amazing.

And like how cool.

I mean Chelsea Handler said it when she was about how cool that he like didn't fucking give a shit to be there.

It was like I'm smoking sags at home.

Okay.

No, he was somewhere I read.

I can't remember.

I don't want to visit like a president of some country.

I'm not, I can't even remember what I saw.

But anyway, so is it just we're voting on who we thought gave the best performance?

Or do you think they can be affected?

I mean, I guess they're human the voters.

They could be publicists.

They could be actors.

They could be directors.

Like it could be like, oh, oh, Tony Chalamet, not voting for him.

I mean, I guess it's not robots.

It's not like so I guess it could be affected by the press run and everything that he's saying.

Listen, IMO, like the ballet and opera thing.

Oh, my God.

When I first saw it, I I want to flip over and over again.

And I was like, why did he say that?

It's like it's not like if a celeb gets asked a question that is so direct and then they answer it and then they get in trouble.

You know, or it's like he just said it out of his fucking ass.

Like, what?

Like Matthew McConaughey was there and he was like, what?

You know, and it's like, I'm sure he after seeing the uproar that this cause, you know, it's like, why the fuck did I say that?

And I'm sure he watches the clip and it's like, absolutely no reason.

Like there's absolutely no reason why I said that.

Like I said that for absolutely no reason.

Like nobody asked like what forms of art?

Like I don't know why he said that.

He was just, I think he was constantly on this press run trying to prove how passionate he is about moving.

Making how passionate he's about acting, how all any is, how talented he is, how great he is.

And I feel like, you know, of course the opera and the ballet can, you know, be offended or whatever.

But I think it's more about that.

It's like another punch down of this press tour.

That is, I mean, it's funny because I was going to say friend Drescher.

Friend Drescher, right?

That's a real name.

The past president of sex.

She got asked about that a lot in the carpet because she plays his mom, I think, in Marty's Supreme.

And I'm watching, I can believe it.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

And she said it right.

She was like, you know, maybe less press, you know, maybe less press.

Like, you know, but she said he's a good guy.

His parents are artists.

Like none of it made sense.

Like his family are dancers.

It was a stupid thing that he said.

But the other thing is like somebody compiled this, but like he said it before.

He said, he's a man obsessed.

He's a man obsessed.

Or it's not even a man obsessed.

I mean, sometimes we each have the things that we repeat in our lives that we think are

like good lines, you know, like I hear myself doing it.

Sometimes when I repeat something and I'm like, oh, my God, I'm at that.

Like that's your thing.

You say it to every person you meet, you know, and like that, that's his thing.

It's like dissing the ballet and the opera.

I don't know why.

Maybe he like secretly wanted to be a ballet dancer.

Obviously, as per the internet, it went far.

People were like comparing Tom Holland and how he spoke about the ballet versus Timothy.

And like, I do agree.

This press run, I don't think looks good for him.

Like he didn't come across as like, wow, what a man.

She came across like pretty like, you know, full of himself, a little like to like, I'm an actor.

You know, and people get the ick from that.

Like people don't love that.

Like you can take yourself seriously.

But like, just don't, you know, don't, don't do too much.

Don't do too much.

I don't know.

Do I, I wonder if like Kylie saves him because like then you see them on the vanity fair carpet.

You see them on the carpet.

And you're like, there it is.

Whoop, there it is.

There is the star.

There is the star.

Even though people were saying he looked like Kevin from the back street boys at the Oscar.

And it was cracking me up.

But these two you guys Kylie did say in a recent interview she wants more babies.

In these last years of her 20s.

And you know who's babies she's fucking having.

Timothy.

Okay.

But it was funny.

Like people doja cat chimed in.

Which I don't know if it's real.

But it showed the Kylie Jenner commented on doja cats video hating on Timothy.

It showed the Kylie road calm down all of all.

And I was like, is that real?

Because I couldn't find it.

Like we all went to the comments.

I couldn't find the comment.

So you never know in today's age.

I'm like, what's real?

And I stop.

Anyway, in today's age.

Okay.

That's a good trend this.

And today's age.

But if you could go back to the fucking 2000s.

When to be sliving like 2000s like that era.

Like John Tucker must die era.

Yes.

That's where I'm going.

You guys today's guest is John Tucker.

It's Jesse Metcalf.

And you know, I mean, you probably fell in love with him.

As the iconic John Roland and desperate housewives aka the gardener.

That launched like just TV crushes worldwide.

John Tucker must die like we said.

And he's here today.

He has a new skin care line called neutral because he literally look seven.

And he's 47.

So made sense for him.

And we talk about his early rise to fame and like navigating Hollywood.

What he did wrong.

Like coming up in Hollywood.

He has a lot of regrets.

He's very honest in this pod.

And very vulnerable and very real that I'm telling you.

Like I was thinking about our conversation for a while.

And also like very in awe of like how real he was being like he has.

Again, a lot of regrets from his career.

He wants to make up for it.

He wants to make amends with people that he was not good with.

And he wants to do more.

And it's really touching.

You know, and an interesting as he reflects.

So yeah, that's a good one.

Enjoy my Convo with Jesse.

Are we both with fake glasses?

Are you a real glasses?

Mine are also real.

I don't really need that.

I am a basic and I'm like losing my vision again.

That's how old I am.

I thought we were.

I had to buy glasses back.

I thought you were both pretending.

No, I do.

So I do have a number.

It's just like I don't really need it.

Okay.

But you felt like you wanted to put some prescription lenses in there.

Just like just in case someone checks.

No, no, I feel.

No, I feel the driver's thing.

So there was no company.

And I was like to a and they were like, no.

And then I was like, what?

And then I was like, I did this.

I've always wanted glasses.

And I did this to myself.

Yeah.

But I like them.

I think it's chic.

You willed your vision to go.

I will.

So you could wear glasses.

Yeah.

What's your number?

I have no idea.

It's high.

I mean, it was.

I used to be like close to legally blind.

And then I got LASIK.

LASIK is apparently terrible for you.

What age did you get LASIK?

I got LASIK.

I got LASIK actually in a Golden Globes gift bag.

You know how they just reported that the Golden Globes gift bags are like a million dollar gift bags.

We said I didn't see that.

Okay.

I went back when I was at the Golden Globes probably in like 2005 or 2006.

I don't think there were a million dollars.

But they were still like 300,000.

And you got some worth.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You got like some amazing stuff.

You got like a high end watch.

You got.

And I got LASIK.

I surgery.

Like there was a card.

There was a card.

There was a card.

Yes.

LASIK I surgery gift card.

No.

I'm dying that you made that appointment.

Oh, I made that appointment.

Are you kidding me?

It was amazing.

That is amazing.

But now they're finding out that LASIK I surgery is terrible for us.

What did they say?

One, it doesn't last.

You know, I mean, it was great for a while.

But two, it causes dry eye when you get older.

What age did you do the LASIK?

I was 20th, 25th, 26th.

25th, 26th.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So throughout your career, you were with contacts.

I was, I was with contacts.

I was with child.

No, I was with contacts.

Yeah.

You were wearing contacts wearing and how annoying are contacts?

I don't know.

For someone who's worn contacts, you know, I mean, you end up like sleeping in your contacts

all the time and then your contacts like in the back of your eye and you're like pulling it.

I mean, it's like.

So you get the golden globe thing, you call the number on the back.

Yes.

You make the appointment.

Yes.

Yes.

You fucking do it.

And it's, and it's like a.

Who came with you?

So I work orange, you know, when you get LASIK eye surgery.

You know, have you seen that last scene in a clockwork orange where they're like, you know,

showing the lead character, all the violent images and stuff and his eyelids are held open.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Four steps.

That's what it's like when you get LASIK.

Yeah.

It's kind of scary.

Yeah.

So are you going to do it again?

I don't even know if you can do it again.

I haven't really even looked into it.

I just started wearing glasses again.

Well, it looks good on you.

Thank you.

Jesse.

That was an interesting little detour.

That was a nice one.

Yeah.

That's the show.

That is the show.

Excuse me.

Excuse me.

I love this nugget.

How are you?

Thank you for coming.

Thank you so much for having me.

I appreciate it.

You look amazing.

Thank you.

Like I was going to ask, like, what's your skin care routine?

I'm like, duh.

If I can came out with a skin care line.

I thought it made sense.

I thought it worked.

Wait, so everyone told you you're not 47 years old.

Yeah.

I was getting that a lot on the carpet.

People asked me about my skincare routine.

I was like, this, I could do this.

This could work.

This could be a vertical.

That's authentic for my brand.

Yeah.

My brand.

So what?

Wait, what were you ever brand?

What were you doing?

Like before?

Like were you?

Hot spots routine.

Taking a product from this line.

Taking a product from this line.

You know, whatever I was gifted.

Whatever, whatever was on the counter.

I mean, I wasn't putting too much thought into it, really.

And then when you came up with, it's called neutral.

It's called neutral.

It's not phonetically.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Love that.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Exactly.

I was kind of thinking like carbon neutral.

The product's really clean.

One of the clean cleanest ones in the market.

It's like, if I look it up on like Yuka.

Yeah.

Yuka's going to be happy with it.

I don't even know if it's on Yuka, but I would imagine so.

Okay.

Because it's only the act of ingredients and natural botanicals.

There's no additives.

There's no silicons, parabons.

There's no fragrances.

Are you like a healthy guy?

Yeah.

You're like a clean guy.

Yeah.

Well, that's a new thing.

Okay.

Relatively.

Relativelyly.

But you wanted to be super clean and everything.

Yeah.

This can't care.

Yeah.

And it's only like four steps.

We're keeping it simple.

Exactly.

Well, it's only four products as of right now.

We definitely have plans to roll out other products.

And how's it going?

How does it feel to be a brand donor?

It's going really good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, first of all, it's totally self-funded.

You know, so it's a lot of pressure.

Like just you.

I haven't taken any outside investment.

I've been very lucky that I have a lot of people, friends in the industry that have been

supportive of me, a lot of influencers that have posted for free, friends that have posted

for free.

And it's a great relationship with Tori Johnson who produces the segments on Good Morning

America and the view and that's definitely helped the business, you know, because you make

a substantial amount of revenue on those shows.

But it's been a, it's been an interesting journey.

I've actually been having a lot of fun with it.

Yeah.

You probably would have never imagined yourself getting into this kind of thing.

I have never imagined myself doing a lot of things.

Yeah.

Like what?

Like what?

I was a kid.

I didn't know what I wanted to do.

Like you are a kid.

No, I'm really not.

I'm really actually annoying.

No, it's really annoying.

Have you been told that?

But let it out.

You can go.

No, because like what the hell?

Yeah.

I mean, I'm 47 years old.

Yeah.

47 years old, you know.

I feel it on the inside.

Do you really?

I do.

You're like, oh, my knee hurts.

Does it really?

Yeah.

It does.

Got a lot of aches and pains.

You guys are 2000s heartthrob.

That's you.

I guess.

Yeah.

You know what I like about you.

You feel old again.

No, don't.

No.

So I was going to say what I like about you is that I feel like you haven't rejected that term.

No.

No, I never did.

No.

People are like, you know, and try to want to be, you know, labeled something else.

I feel like you were afraid of being pigeonholed.

You know, and having that kind of pretty boy heartthrob moniker.

It can be difficult to break out of that.

And how did you feel about it?

I never broke out of it.

I mean, it's challenging for sure.

I mean, I definitely feel like because of the roles that I took earlier in my career, I never necessarily

got the opportunity to play the type of roles I really want to play.

Like what was that dream?

I really still haven't.

You know, but it's never over.

You know, it's a marathon, not a sprint.

I'm still striving within the industry, but I've definitely shifted gears and tried to do

other things, you know, to stay relevant, to pay the bills.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, starting a business, starting a brand has been something totally new to me.

And it's kind of like reinvigorated me in a lot of ways and inspired me to, you know, just believe

that I can do anything that I set my mind to, even at the ripe age of 47 years old.

Well, because it's like, you know, that's why I'm so interested in talking with actors and actresses,

because so much of this industry is like not in your control.

I mean, all of it really, I mean, what can you control?

Like getting good at your craft or like fucking going on the audition or setting in the tape,

but like, it's not in your control.

So starting a business, that's in your control.

Like that, you can fucking be like, I'm gonna wake up and do the thing.

And you're so right about that.

That's so insightful that, you know, you know, that obviously have interviewed a lot of people in the industry.

But I mean, all we can really do is kind of look our best and work on our craft and give best possible

audition.

And now that all auditions are basically on tape and not even in person, it's even more challenging.

Yeah, you think it was better to get in the room?

I do.

Yeah, I do.

I think there's a certain energy in the room.

You can convey something about yourself, about the essence of who you are that you can't really convey over.

I agree.

How do they keep that going?

Because I agree even for like an interview or an intro call, like not even an audition or a chemistry read.

Like I just interviewed somebody who she did the chemistry read for this huge Netflix movie.

On Zoom.

Wow.

You know, and it's like, how do you get the vibe?

How do you engage that?

I know.

How do you even get the vibes?

Yeah, seriously.

But also like talking about being pigeonholed, like being like the hot guy is like a good thing.

You know what I mean?

It's like, like your shirt was all.

I can tell you some stories.

It's not, it's not, it's not always what, what it's cracked up to be.

It's not always what you think.

Oh, did you feel like, did you feel over sexualized?

I wouldn't say that, although at times, yes, I definitely was over sexualized and objectified, you know, within the industry.

But I mean, I certainly didn't come on your show to complain about that.

No.

No, but I want to talk about it in any regard.

But I mean, you know, my journey dealing with sort of my appearance and the way that I look started at a very young age, very young age.

Like when I was a child, I was a very pretty boy, you know, and I got ridiculed and teased as a child, like insanely.

For being beautiful?

Yeah, yeah.

Like what were they saying?

Yeah, I mean, I don't know for not looking enough like a boy, for not looking masculine enough.

I have no idea just for standing out, for not looking like everyone else.

I don't really know.

What was the good thing now?

What various different people were thinking or that I looked like a girl.

That I looked like a girl that I was gay, like all of a sudden, this kind of followed me.

It followed me throughout a lessons.

It followed me in middle school.

I dealt with it in high school.

I dealt with it when I came to Hollywood.

It just kept coming up.

Like it haunted me.

You know, and I think that was one of the main reasons why I was kind of, I had a chip on my shoulder.

I mean, I was kind of like angry when I made it.

When I finally made it, you know, when I was like, I grew up and got taller and got bigger,

and like had money, like I was a jerk.

Really?

Yeah, because I was just so sick and tired of people treating me poorly.

Did your confidence grow though?

Oh, yeah, my confidence grew.

I was even confident back then.

You were.

Even when I was getting, you know, kind of made fun of and bullied, you know, as an adolescent and a little boy.

I mean, I still sort of believed I was meant for bigger and better things, for bigger things.

You did.

Absolutely.

I couldn't wait to get out of the small town that I grew up in.

Where did you grow up?

I grew up in Connecticut.

In Connecticut.

In London, Connecticut.

How far is that from like New York City?

Two hours.

Okay.

But it felt small town-ish.

It was super small town-ish.

Oh, okay.

Oh, yeah.

You go into the area where I grew up.

It's very blue collar.

So what age did you know then?

The emphasis on the art, on the arts.

Not a lot of diversity.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what age did you know you said you were meant for bigger things?

Well, I mean, I was always in, I was always artistic.

You know, I drew, I painted, I sang.

Did you get bullied for that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I never acted as a child.

You know, I went to a performing arts high school, actually.

High school called the William School.

That was on Connecticut College campus in New London, Connecticut.

A really hoity-toity kind of school.

No locks on the lockers.

You know, everything was run by the honor code, you know.

No grades.

Uniforms.

Oh, no, there were grades.

Oh, there were grades.

There were grades.

There were grades.

It was a highly competitive school.

I mean, we had a couple.

Well, my graduating class was a big graduating class.

It had 50 kids in it.

Oh, wow.

And we had a couple kids that got 1600s on the SATs, a perfect score.

Oh, wow.

You know, so it was like, it was kind of for kids that.

What did you get on your SATs?

I got like a 13 hundred.

That's amazing.

13 hundred is a good score.

Thank you.

So did you get into it?

Did you apply to college?

I only applied to New York University.

And you went.

And you went to New York University, yeah.

And did you live in the city and the dorms?

I did.

I did.

I lived in the dorms.

Yeah.

I lived in Weinstein.

Was that like Union Square?

That was on, that was on, yeah.

That was on a university place.

Oh, cool.

So how did you like that, that time of your life?

It was an intense time in my life, for sure.

I mean, coming from a small town in Connecticut, even though it was just two hours away.

Yeah.

It's a totally different world in the city, obviously.

Right.

I mean, the city, I always knew I wanted to come to New York for college.

I knew that's where opportunity would strike.

You know, I did some modeling, you know, when I was in high school.

And I used to take the train sometimes call out from school to the city

and do like photo shoots for YM and like 17 magazine.

How are you getting these jobs?

Like did they reach out to you?

I have an agent.

You got an agent.

I went to an open casting call for modeling, like my sophomore year in high school.

And I got an agency.

And you got like an agency that could send you on things.

They would send, they would just kind of like book me.

I would get direct bookings.

Did you want to make money for me?

Or did you want to make money?

Or did you want to make money?

Everything I did kind of was about money when I was a kid.

Oh, yeah.

I didn't grow up with a ton of money.

So I was very fixated on having money, making money, being rich, raising my family's quality of life.

And you were, sounds like you were like a very self-aware kid.

Like you knew, you were like, I knew that I had a pretty face.

I knew people were making fun for it.

I knew I was going to do big things.

And now I can use this to like make money.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was pretty self-aware.

I mean, yeah.

I was aware of all of those things.

But I was kind of still deeply affected by, you know, my life circumstance at that time.

You know, I had a lot going on.

You know, I was, I had a father who had, you know, some, some issues, you know, with the law and drugs and alcohol.

And was sort of, I was ashamed from him for like 15 years.

You know, I mean, I, I had a turbulent, formative teenage sort of life that definitely echoed throughout adulthood and throughout my career in Hollywood.

Were you like, I need to get the fuck out of New London, Connecticut?

Absolutely.

Okay.

We'll be right back after the break.

You guys drum roll.

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Hope to see you there.

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I told you guys once and I'll tell you again, I am a bar girl.

It's funny.

Like I remember even my friends making fun of me when I was little.

Like didn't matter if I was on a diet.

It didn't matter like what was going on in my life.

I'm always having something sweet and I'm always having a snack in my bag.

And that hasn't changed about me.

And luckily like with the times like better products came out healthier products came

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So New York NYU, did you go to Tish?

I did.

I did.

Did you do you have to audition like?

And I studied film and television.

Oh, okay.

Okay. So I studied writing and directing, cinematography, film history.

It was a pretty amazing program.

Yeah.

I really, really enjoyed myself.

I had to write an essay about my favorite movie at the time,

which was The Basketball Diaries movie with Leonardo DiCaprio

that like really impacted me and that got me in.

Well, that essay got you in.

Because I had never made a short film or anything.

It was just really the essay.

Oh, wow.

And I had an incredible time.

And everything that's happened for me in Hollywood started here in New York.

In New York.

So I was modeling.

I went to an open casting call for a couple commercials.

And then I went to an open casting call for a daytime television show called Passion.

Oh, and that's how you got passions.

Yeah.

And I had no, so I had basically no experience.

I go to this open casting call for passions.

They give me some sides, you know, some script pages.

They tell me to go out into the lobby of this building and like study these pages.

I have no idea what I'm doing.

I try to memorize these pages to the best of my ability.

I come back in there.

I audition.

I'm terrible.

I mean, literally terrible.

I just, I have no clue what I'm doing.

But I could see whoever was running the casting that she had a little little sparkle in her eye.

You know, I was kind of like, oh, this, this woman kind of seems like she's interested in me in some capacity.

Left there being like, okay, well, maybe that didn't go so bad.

I heard nothing for like two to three weeks.

I get a phone call in my dorm room saying that they want to fly me to Los Angeles for a screen test.

I'm like, wow, this is insane.

So then I got serious.

Then I got an acting coach.

I worked on the audition scenes.

I fly out to LA.

They put me up at like the Hilton at a universal studios.

I do the screen test.

And I nailed the screen test.

You nailed it.

Yeah.

Like it went really well.

I'm like, okay, that went well.

I get back to New York.

I get into my dorm room.

I get into the regular swing of things basically two days goes by.

I get another call.

Castings like, we might need you to come back to Los Angeles.

I can't come back to Los Angeles.

Like, I'm in college here at NYU.

Like, what are you talking about?

What's going on?

We're going to have someone else call you back.

Someone else calls me back and goes, we'd like to offer you this role.

And I literally like, I hung up the phone.

We were in sort of an apartment style dorm where I had a roommate on one side.

And then there was two other guys living on the other side of the dorm.

And those guys were kind of like my good friends.

And they were both in film too.

And I literally walked into their dorm room.

And I was like, I'm out of here.

I'm going to LA to be a famous actor.

I go, you guys have fun.

Wait until you didn't end up finishing NYU.

No.

I thought that would like a semester left and never went back.

And never went back and finished.

Not that a television and film degree is really all that valuable.

I got to be honest with you.

I know.

But you did like it.

I enjoyed incredible experience there.

There was some professors that really, really inspired me on the acting side,

on the directing and filmmaking side, on the writing side.

I mean, it's an incredible program.

You were like, I'm out.

Well, we don't a lot of the, it was like a soap.

It was a soap.

So, but it was the last wackiest soap that's literally ever been on television.

Arguably, it could be the worst television show that it's ever aired.

But people loved it.

People were obsessed with it.

Wait, wasn't that work was it on?

It was on NBC.

And ABC like films are soaps here in the city.

Yeah.

And we see filmed out there.

Yeah.

We filmed at CBS Radford actually.

Okay.

So when you first audition, then you said you bombed because like,

I feel like soap acting.

Is it like a different type of acting?

Is it more like there in the camera?

There's just aren't as good.

It's not a different type of acting.

You're saying if like Leo was on a set.

I got what you're saying.

I think Leo was on a soap.

Oh, it was.

It was.

It's probably in his career, you know?

But I know he was on like, I don't know what was he on like,

growing pain or something.

Right.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

As I'm growing pain.

Okay.

But there is that like looking to camera a little bit.

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

Maybe that just wander off and like, end with a long stare like in the camera.

Okay.

That's a good point.

Okay.

So.

So you took an acting coach and you got good and you felt confident.

Yeah.

I still didn't even feel confident in my craft, you know?

And when I came into, came to Hollywood when I came to Los Angeles.

I still really didn't have much experience as an actor.

Yeah.

You know, I really sort of learned on the job.

I worked with several different acting coaches like Leslie Conn, Ivana Chubbick, Ivana

Chubbick kind of changed my life.

She's incredible.

She's such a character and was known for being maybe a little, a little mean, you know,

in her acting classes, like she would just sort of cut right to the, to the core of the

experience.

Like she would be like your terrible.

Like she would be like your terrible.

She would come and this rape people.

Really?

You know, but it, but it was good because it gave you a thick skin.

Yeah.

It gave you a thick skin and that's something that you need to survive, you know, in the

industry.

So how many years were you doing passion?

I was on passions for five years.

For five years.

Yeah.

And then you left.

Did they kill you?

No, I left.

Okay.

You left.

You were like, I'm over this.

I wanted to see if I could, you know, get something better.

Yeah.

And you did.

I did.

You got desperate.

How long after?

My first pilot season.

My, I actually went the whole pilot season when there was pilot season.

I know everyone says that.

Do you guys miss it?

Because I feel like people talk about it.

It was kind of fun.

Yeah.

Because it was intense.

You know, you'd have like sometimes three auditions a day.

And they were in person.

Yeah.

You know, so it was kind of, it was a rush.

You know, it was, it was kind of cool.

Right.

It was like a big thing to look forward to.

Now it's like you have a week to prepare an audition.

You can tape it 50 times if you want.

Right.

You know, and still not get it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's a story of my life.

No.

But I.

Yeah.

Well, I don't remember.

What were you even talking about?

We were talking about getting desperate households.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I went, I went an entire pilot season.

I got close on another show called Veronica Mars.

I think I actually had a test deal.

You know, when, when they like your audition, then they set up a, a test deal with you where you basically

have to audition for the studio and the network.

They decide how much you're going to get paid.

They sort of write up a preliminary contract.

And I, I, I had to choose between testing for Veronica Mars, which was also a really great

show.

Right.

Chris and Belle and everything.

Made Kristen Bell exactly or testing for this other show, which sort of seemed like a,

a primetime soap opera.

That's a process.

Right.

So I ended up testing for that show and booking in.

Wait.

You needed to decide which one.

Which one.

You can't do both.

No, you can't.

You couldn't do both.

So how did you decide to go for the one that's more, the, the sounding more soapy?

We kind of just guessed.

Because you were like, maybe I got good at this and we kind of, we kind of, we kind of, we

thought the role was maybe better suited for me, I think.

I don't know.

I listened to my reps at the time.

And hashtag no regrets, obviously.

Obviously.

Obviously.

Obviously.

Yeah.

I heard a recent story that you said about not making it to an entourage audition.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I like, I like shows to go to like a party in Malibu and not like audition for entourage.

I like read the script and I was like, what's this?

You know, I didn't, I didn't really think.

By the way, when I read that article, I mean, you and Adrian, we, we look a lot alike.

A lot alike.

Yeah.

I was like, that makes total fucking sense.

Totally.

Yeah.

So you had the audition and you were at the stage and you're like, cause you, you've spoken

about like getting sober.

Right.

So were you without a non sober face or something?

That was probably a non sober decision.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Or I could have just been an idiotic decision, you know, like a young guy who thought he knew

better, you know, which I truly believe in like whatever's meant for me is meant for me.

I do.

Yeah.

I do.

You know, but I also sometimes room in it on the idea that like, you know, maybe I am, maybe

I have some like karma that I'm making up for from like a past life or something.

Cause my journey's been kind of wild, you know, it's been maybe, maybe from the outside,

it looks like I've, you know, kind of like always lived a very blessed life.

And I have for the most part, but I've had a lot of ups and downs.

So, you know, and I, and I still really to this day and you know, like I said, it's a marathon,

not a sprint and the journey's not over, but I do feel like I've underachieved.

You do.

Yeah.

No, because, because I'm thinking about that because we did also talk about the not in your control

in this industry and a lot of people haven't achieved the thing.

I used to think it wasn't my control.

Yeah.

That's the thing.

I used to think it wasn't my control.

I mean, look, when you're hitting and when it's all happening and it's like one opportunity

after the next, you feel like I'm great.

You think it's going to last forever.

Right.

You know, and you think you're in control.

Well, what would you tell these?

Because we see it today too, but it's like today with social media.

There wasn't really social media when John Tucker really wished there was social media

when I was on desperate housewives and during John Tucker.

Yeah.

Because then I'd have 30 million followers and I'd never have to work again.

He is a businessman.

He is a businessman.

But like, I feel like those moments of skyrocketing become even bigger.

Like, you know, the heated rivalry guys right now, right?

No, like the moment gets crazy.

And they're like instantly on the cover of GQ.

Right.

It's like you do one show now and you blow up so hard that it's not like you have to do like

a couple of hit shows and then you get your first big movie and then you're on the cover of GQ.

Now it's like, what's the new hot thing?

Boom.

Put them on the cover.

I know.

But you know what I was thinking because I was thinking about the heated rivalry.

Did you watch the show?

I've watched a little bit of it.

Yeah.

So love, love, love.

But I was thinking about them because I like get in my mind about them.

I'm like, oh my god.

They're blowing up.

They're everywhere.

And then I was like, wait.

Like, remember the show monsters with Cooper?

Did you watch them?

Yeah.

Yeah.

They're, they're great.

They're amazing.

But like they had a really, really big moment after the show too.

Do you get what I mean?

Like moments are like moments and you got to capitalize on it.

Yeah.

20 years ago or now, it's still not guaranteed that after your moment, you're going to be the

hottest shit on GQ next year.

You know what I mean?

You're right.

You're absolutely right about that.

It's a crazy.

You got out of the right team behind you.

You got to be very strategic.

You got to make the right decisions.

Do all the things.

Don't do all the things.

You got to do everything right.

You got to do everything right.

Yeah.

You can't, you can't really mess up, you know, in any regard, you know, you can't say

the wrong thing.

You can't do the wrong thing.

You can't pick the wrong project.

I mean, it's like, yeah, it's, it's a very, it's, you have to be very strategic.

Once you have that big break, I don't, I don't necessarily think I was that strategic.

No.

See, do you have regrets about that?

No, I think it's like after your first big break, sometimes it takes a year, sometimes

it takes two years for you to get the next role that makes sense that's going to even

take you to a higher level.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't think I'm going to be patient, you know, and patients has never been my

strong suit.

It hasn't.

So how long after desperate housewives did John Tucker must die happen?

After the first season.

So I was fired from, from desperate housewives.

But wait, why were you fired?

Well, after the first season, they didn't really know where else to take my storyline.

And, you know, our creator, Mark Cherry, was kind of like, hey, this isn't like desperate

house gardeners.

Yeah.

Like this is desperate housewives.

So unfortunately, you know, you're not going to be a series regular moving forward on

the show.

We're going to bring you back in her mentally.

And at that time, I had been offered John Tucker must die from 20th Century Fox.

So I was like, hey, cool, no big deal.

I'm going to be a movie star, but, you know, thanks.

Oh, like you didn't agree to come back.

No, I didn't come back in.

I didn't come back in her mentally, but I wasn't hit, you know, super hard.

Like, oh my gosh, I'm being like fired from this like mega hit show.

Right.

You were like, it's cool.

I took it in stride, you know, because I, you know, I thought that this is only

the beginning.

But you were, it was like, how old were you when you did that?

26, I think.

26.

Yeah.

26, but I looked like I was 17.

And right because Eva was what 28 or something, I know.

That's why I'll that you were.

So you always looked younger than your age.

I did.

Yeah.

You always did.

But how did it feel at that time?

Because I remember I had like Taylor Lawner on my show and guys don't really talk about

the like insecurities like the way we do, right?

For instance, but like taking off your shirt, all of that, were you confident about it?

Was it like, shit, I need to like work out a lot and, you know, like, did you have insecurities

going into that?

No, I worked out, I worked out a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was a lot of pressure.

It was pressure.

Definitely.

I mean, at that time, I was pretty naturally in shape, you know, as you, as you get older,

you got to put a little bit more work into it.

I luckily, I really like working out.

Yeah.

That's it.

I like it.

You work out daily, don't you?

I like fitness.

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I like optimizing my health and wellness and different, you know, health and wellness hacks

and stuff.

Oh, you do like uberman things.

I'm going to do all that stuff.

You're in and tell that stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What's like the weirdest shit that you do?

What are you doing?

Are you doing like salmon?

No.

No, no, no, no.

I haven't, I haven't gone into salmon, salmon sperm just yet.

I do that, honestly.

I mean, just like, I, I, red light, I have a red light.

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You have to like, yeah, I literally get into this like sleeping bag that has, you know,

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That's amazing.

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It's incredible.

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What does it do?

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We'll be right back after the break.

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Okay.

No social media really when you were doing desperate housewives, but like if I imagined

in today's world, if someone played the role that you played, it would have a lot of

women coming.

Well, someone else did play the role that I played.

You.

No, they had cast that role with another actor for I booked the role on desperate house.

I was a recast.

Wait, who was the guy before you?

Remember his name.

Oh, you don't remember his name.

That's kind of like, I'm sorry, I don't remember his name.

Apparently, there wasn't great chemistry between him and Eva.

Yeah.

And so they decided to recast.

And then you and then you got on the show, but like, I feel like women.

Did you, was it life imitating art?

Were like older women trying to hit on you because of the show?

Well, when I first got into the business, a lot of older women would try to hit on.

Really?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And yeah.

So I guess it was life imitating art a bit.

Did you get down with that?

Did I partake in that?

Yeah, but did you partake?

Not really.

Not really.

Not really.

Not really.

You only dated your age.

Well, you know, a lot of flirting at like events and stuff like that.

Yeah.

I mean, look, when you're like the new hot thing, yeah, everybody's trying to get a piece

of it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you got to be relatively discerning.

And then you get John Tucker, Mosaic.

Does your head, your, your head is kind of big at that point, right?

I thought it was pretty, it was probably pretty big.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I always believe that I've been a really kind of the same guy throughout my entire

time in the industry.

But I have had incidences where I felt as though I was being diminished or disrespected

or condescended to in some way, shape or form, and my reaction outweighed the offense.

You know what I mean?

Because you were saying you were a jerk, like, yeah, I would just kind of like go a little

too big, you know, but I mean, the things that I had dealt with in my childhood, you know,

not to make excuses for myself.

But I mean, yeah, I would like, well, you would like start, I was like, no, I'm like,

well, I'm like, I've like threatened people before I've like threatened directors

before.

No.

You know, yes.

Oh my God.

I just like, I've like lost it.

Would you today, if you saw them be like, yes, yes, I'm sorry, I was the day.

I looked forward to the opportunity to running into a lot of these people and making amends

and apologizing.

And I have to many people, you know, which is, you know, really lighten the burden, you

know, because I do, I'm a little embarrassed by some of my, you know, behavior.

You chalk it up to like, you were young, yeah, you were a little hot headed.

You were taking out some like, aggressions that you had from growing up, it was, it

was, it was from like, it was like trauma, you know, so it was like, I was like expressing

trauma.

I was like, I had like a wounded little boy inside of me who was like overreacting to

everything.

Did you, because you're into the wellness and the house, but are you therapy?

Like how did you deal with that sort of stuff?

I've done a lot of therapy.

Yeah.

A lot of therapy.

Out of network therapy, because I cost me a small, because the good therapist, they're

not in network.

No, no, no, no, no, no, you cannot find them in network.

Are you still doing that?

Is that something that's important to keep up with?

I'm not terribly at the moment, but not to say I won't be, you know, in the future.

Therapy's great.

What is your like ideal situation?

You have your brand now, your skincare brand.

Are you still sending auditions?

Like is there like, I'm still.

I'm still auditioning, and I think giving some of the best auditions of my career.

Really?

You're doing it.

I haven't booked anything super substantial as of right now.

I got a few smaller movies coming out.

I mean, I'd love to get back on a hit television series, something that ultimately could

be a little bit more critically acclaimed.

I'd love to win a Golden Globe or an Emmy one of these days.

But it out there, babe.

I'm not necessarily saying I want to win an Oscar, but a Golden Globe or an Emmy would

make me very, very proud.

And you know, I'd love to build a successful brand and then build out my profile and health,

wellness and beauty.

I don't think there's another straight guy in the industry pushing skincare or something.

Wait, there's not, right?

Yeah, I don't think so.

I think I'm planning to win all by myself.

So I posted when you, did your girlfriend tell you that she likes me?

Yeah.

I don't like loves me.

I don't like that.

No.

So when I...

Helen?

Yeah.

Okay, because I was like, Elaine, but Helen, okay.

So I posted when you came out with this kind of gear, it was kind of our brand.

Yeah, really?

I was like, news king, care brand, gender, gender, neutral, love it.

And she DMed me, which was, she was so sweet, she was like, oh my god, I almost crashed

my car like when I saw you posted it.

And she's so sweet, she's so beautiful.

She's not a, she's not in the, in the best.

No, she's not.

Okay, what did she say about me?

She just said she loves your content.

She thinks you're really funny, really down to earth.

That you give great interviews.

She loves your whole journey and how you built your career.

And obviously I've looked into you as well and I'm very impressed by what you've done.

Oh, thank you.

Thank you.

Well, I'm so happy that that happened because I made me even more excited about the interview.

And then I started following her on like TikTok.

And by the way, if you want to see Jessie content, like, do you know what she's doing when

she's filming?

She's literally using me on her TikTok so that she can get to 10,000 followers so she

can start monetizing.

I'm obsessed that you guys are, no, I love it.

I, there's nothing I love more than like people being like real and like saying it how

it is.

You know what I mean?

Because we're all feeling it.

We all live this life.

We're all trying.

That's me.

That's me.

But she, she even posted.

She's like, he's, I'm, I think one of them was like, I'm pretty sure I have the most

gorgeous boyfriend in the world.

She really loves.

I know.

I know.

We're together.

Two and a half years is, is going.

Good.

It's going really good.

Yeah.

And I saw you saying an interview somewhere that like someone was like, you're dating a

normie.

Do you remember that interview?

Someone's like you're dating a normie?

And you were like, I've mostly dated normies.

They didn't stay normies, you know, during the course of our relationships, but I think

most of the women that I've I certainly haven't dated for my career like you haven't dated.

I haven't dated for my career at all.

Have you had opportunities?

I've only, many, yeah, I've only dated many, many,

many that were, many that people were like,

no, it would be a good idea.

Yeah, they weren't like set up,

but you know, various different people

that I've worked with in the past

and then there was interest there

and then there was kind of like some talk of,

but you seem like you're so business savvy,

why wouldn't you be into that?

Too real.

Really?

Yeah, I may be business savvy, but.

You weren't like, I'm not, I'm not built like that.

Yeah.

Little PR relationship.

Well, I have boundaries.

Yeah.

I guess you wouldn't do anything.

But people do it.

I wouldn't do anything to be on a new hot show.

Right.

Sell my brand for, you know, $200 million.

I wouldn't do anything.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, I have limits.

So you dated mostly normies?

Yeah.

And also now.

I've been very lucky in love.

I've had a lot of incredible women love me

and support me in my life.

But this one's the best one.

Really?

Are you a good boyfriend?

I am.

Yeah.

Because you called yourself like a head case

on this interview that I saw.

I'm well, I can be.

You're like, I can be.

So she, are you a lot to handle?

I can handle a lot and I'm a leader

and I'm a man and I take care of the women in my life.

But I have my insecurities, you know,

and who do you vent to?

I mean, you're an actor, you know?

Other than the person closest to you.

And she can like take that on.

She gets it, she takes it on.

But there are moments where she's like,

hey, listen, you know, shut up.

Yeah.

I literally can't hear about this anymore.

Were you in like fifth grade?

And I'm like, a man spiral.

You're like in a man spiral.

Yeah.

I got a little man spiral, exactly.

But okay.

So when you were on John Tucker, my side,

you were there with Britney Snow, Ashanti.

Also, is there Shofia Buzz?

Ariel Kebble.

Wait, so you didn't hug up with any of them?

No.

Really?

So you were single at the time?

I was, yeah.

I mean, Shofia Bush and I went on a couple like lunches

during the shoot.

Yeah.

But that wasn't a match.

Did you have a crush on anyone

when you were like at that time?

Not really.

Not really.

I've kind of always been about the work.

I know that sounds crazy,

but I haven't really hooked up with a lot of my co-stars.

I know you want that.

You want that content.

No.

By the way, that's not my brand, that's Ellen.

No, but I'm just, it's interesting

because like you were during that time,

you were like in this peak of your life,

you're going out, you're getting the things like,

yeah, it would sound like you would be,

not a fuck boy, but like a little bit,

yeah, having fun with them.

Well, I'm not saying I wasn't just at certain periods,

but I mean, not in the industry, maybe.

I was really all about the work.

Almost like, I almost tried too hard.

Now I was a little like neurotic on set.

Really?

I would drive like directors crazy being like,

I don't have another cake, you know?

By the way, I just heard this about an actor.

It's like reminding me of this like tea that I heard.

Okay.

He's like going in your footsteps in that way,

but it's interesting because this actor

that I heard it about is kind of new.

You guys won't guess, so it doesn't matter.

And I'm like, and because I want to get in your head

about it, it's like when you're kind of new at this,

like where does the hoots become from to say,

I'm going to talk back to this director,

like I don't give a shit.

Well, the hoots becomes pretty quick

when you're, you know, the lead of like a $30 million movie.

Oh, I get it.

I get it.

You get treated different, you know?

I mean, that's when you're a talent.

That's for sure.

So I got it.

But it really came, it really didn't come from like a place

of arrogance.

It came from a place of perfectionism.

Mm-hmm.

Like I want to get this right.

Perfectionism is basically just like insecurity

that manifests itself is trying to control

everything sort of around you so that you can be,

which you perceive to be the most perfect version of yourself.

That's it.

Yeah.

And it drives people crazy.

Yeah, it drives people crazy.

Because you sort of, it's,

you suck all the air out of the room

and make kind of the whole situation.

You know, there's 30 cast members, you know,

there's, there's, there's a director

and it's like all about what you need to do

in this moment so that you can be your best

and so you can be perfect.

And, you know, you really have,

you have to temper that as an actor

because I mean, it's such a collaborative art.

Right.

And as the lead actor in a television series

or in a movie, it's almost your responsibility

to make sure that everyone's having a good experience.

It's not really the director.

It's not really the producer.

It's not really the,

it's the call sheet guy that whatever you guys say,

the number one on the call sheet.

The number one on the call sheet.

It kind of all trickles down.

So you feel like you hadn't done that

in the, in the, at times, I think I, I failed.

And you wish that you,

yeah, but I, but I've learned from it.

You've learned.

Yeah. And I think that I'm a better cast made,

a better actor and just all around better person now.

I mean, growth, man, growth.

That's what it's all about.

It's all about the growth.

So the whole sobriety thing,

which you came out with like back then, right?

Like 2008.

Well, when did you speak about it for the first time?

She's, I mean, I guess the first time that I went to,

to rehab, you know,

I was like, I'm like 2000, I think, I don't know when was it.

Okay, 2000, like pretending like I didn't wake me yet.

Thank you, thank you.

I don't know.

I was in the 30 year.

Look, I've had, I've had my struggles.

I've had my struggles with drugs and alcohol definitely.

I mean, I just like, a lot of pressure,

a lot of scrutiny, wanted to kind of escape all that.

But then at a certain point,

it becomes really not about the emotional underpinning

of addiction.

It's just addiction, you know?

Like if alcohol is around or drugs are around,

you have like this, it pulls you.

Did you know that you had that kind of person?

Like, you know what, I kind of was hopeful

that it had skipped a generation.

I mean, I touched on the fact that it sort of runs

in my family.

Both my grandfather's were raging alcoholics, you know?

My father, who's sober now.

Yeah, who has quite a bit of sobriety.

And you're in a good, you have a good relationship with him now?

We have a relationship.

I wouldn't say it's great, you have a relationship, you know?

So that's a star.

And what about what has your journey been since the rehab?

I haven't stayed sober the whole time, you know?

I can tell you that, but I am now,

and I'm in a great place now.

And I think that's what matters most.

But I definitely slipped up quite a bit, you know,

in the late 2010s.

Do you feel like you know about yourself

that you can't dabble, that you need to either be like sober or not?

Yeah.

Oh, really?

Yeah, I mean, because it's a progressive disease.

And you may be able to go out once, twice, three times.

Oh, I only had one drink, only I only had two drinks.

Oh, I went home after that.

But then it's like the fifth time, it gets you.

Yeah.

You know, your inhibitions are lower just enough

that then maybe, you know, you don't go home.

You do some drugs.

Yeah, maybe, maybe you go home at, you know, 10 o'clock in the morning.

Yeah.

I don't know.

Yeah.

But I know one thing.

Those moments are so, they're just so, you have so much shame, you know, if you're battling

addiction for basically all of your adult life, when you mess up, you know, and have one

of those, have a bender or really, really late night, you feel like such crap about yourself.

It's just like, it's never worth it.

It's never worth it.

It's never worth it.

You know, it's like a vice now since you're healthy or this or that.

Give me some bad social media probably.

Really?

Yeah.

Like too much.

Oh, yeah, I'll like totally doomscroll.

Like at the end of the day, how on and I will be in bed together and like, you know, I'll

be on TikTok or I'll be on X reading some like fake news.

I mean, you don't know what's real on X, you know, with, with AI and like, I know the AI

movie posters get me.

And I'm like, how does a guy in 10 days too?

I can't wait.

You know?

Oh, it's not happening.

Damn you AI.

The movie posters, would you be down

for like a romantic comedy?

Like, I feel like, like.

I love romantic comedies, and I think I really thrive

in that genre.

I mean, I actually have a small romantic comedy coming out

on Roku, like in the late spring, early summer.

Oh, amazing.

But, and obviously I've done a fair share of work

on the Hallmark channel, and I've had a lot of success

over there, I mean, like some of my movies are like

some of the bigger movies that they've made, you know?

So, yeah, I think I'm good in that genre.

You are good in that genre.

And what about music?

Cause that was your first dream.

I still play guitar and sing, and write a little music.

I mean, it's sort of like on the on the back burner right now,

you know, it's a hobby.

Yeah.

It's never, never something.

I did write some of the original music for a Hallmark series

that I was on called Chesapeake Shores,

where I played a country singer, and licensed those songs

to the show, and still make publishing royalties

on those songs to this day.

So I have made some money, you know, from some music

that I've made, but I'm definitely very passionate

about music.

There's nothing.

What about if you had to choose a reboot?

John Tuckermas, Die, or Desperate Housewives,

but obviously you come back.

Look, I think a John Tuckermas Die sequel would be really fun.

Yeah.

They wrote, they developed a script, they developed a script.

Yeah.

And actually, Aurel Kebble was sort of, you know,

running point on that.

But I think it kind of died on the vine a little bit.

It sort of fizzled out a little bit.

Oh, no.

So I don't necessarily really see that happening,

but it's not a really a make or break situation, you know.

Have you kept in touch with anyone from?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I talked to Aurel, and I'm going to be seeing Penn Badgley,

shortly.

I know he's been on your show.

He has.

He's going to be on his show.

Oh, cool.

Amazing.

Competition.

No, no.

Getting.

He was hilarious here.

We talked about astrology.

No.

He was like, he like lost his mind.

No, he lost it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I know.

I know.

He's really.

He hates astrology.

You should bring it up in the interview.

Oh, I plan on it.

I'm really into astrology.

I got my tarot card.

And actually, I kind of am.

You are?

Wait, what are you?

I mean, I'm a sage.

Yeah.

Wait, that's a good one now.

Well, I love my son.

But I mean, I'm into it to the point that I recently got my chart redone.

Sometimes I do some sessions with an astrologist.

Oh, we had you need to bring this up.

He's going to rip you to stride.

Yeah.

I know.

Probably.

I'm obsessed.

Totally.

Okay.

Finish the sentence.

Okay.

The weirdest thing about being a heart throb is.

The weirdest thing about being a heart throb is people believing that that's all you

are.

Oh.

If John Tucker must die, I came out today.

I'd have 30 million followers and I'd be rich as hell.

I know.

I can love that.

The internet thinks, but really, the internet thinks I don't really necessarily know with

the internet.

But in my insecure mind, the internet thinks that I am shallow and I am very deep.

Yeah.

I mean, it came across today.

I love.

Thank you.

So biggest misconception about you.

The biggest misconception about me that you're 27.

Exactly.

I mean, maybe that I'm, I'm not as down to earth as I am.

I mean, you are.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Thanks.

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Thank you.

Thank you for coming.

Thanks for having me.

This was so fun.

Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode of NotsKinny, but not fat.

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Rect or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.