Jessica Tarlov: POTUS Needs Some Moral Support

0:00Hey, everybody, it's Tim. I got a few items and something to get off my chest before I get to Jesse Tarlov. I'm very excited to have on the show today. Big news. We are going to do another fundraiser live show this time in Dayton, which is really close to Springfield, Ohio. You know, the proceeds are going to go to the Haitian community in Springfield. It's been something where we've been wanting to do. It's in two weeks. So if you're bored on September 25th, if you don't have anything on your calendar, come on. Fly to Dayton. Come hang out with us. You can see, I don't know, some airplane museums. There's got to be some other stuff to do in Dayton or you can just hang out with me. It's going to be a really good time. You can go to theborick.com slash events to get tickets, proceeds to charity. For people who can't come, well, obviously, give you an opportunity as well to support the community after just the horrifying suicide of Pierre and just all these other stories and the videos from Mark Wayne Mullin, like shackling the Haitians,

1:00who did nothing and putting them on these deportation flights back to the hell. We got too upset about it and we felt like we had to do something. We'll be in Dayton, September 25th, book.com slash events. It also has the details for Columbia, which is going to selling out in then Charlotte and at Lanta in October. I'll see you be buying Sarah's book. Have I mentioned it? Sarah has a book. You should probably be buying that as well if you haven't. Here's what I want to rant about. I wrote it in article yesterday for the bulwark. It's something I've talked about a couple times on the podcast and it is a woman, Mariam Thomas-Sabbie and her husband, Isa and her son, who have been in internment camps in Texas for over five months now, separate ones. Husband is in like the literal prison camp and Mariam and her son are in Dilly, the Dilly detention center, which we've been covering here in horrible conditions. The family has done nothing. It's literally Japanese in term of a Iranians. They're in this detention center because there are Iranian, because Isa's

2:04mother was one of the hostage takers in 1979, which is awful and horrible and condemnable and everything, but none of these people are even born in 1979. We are imprisoning them just because of their bloodline. They've been in there with no accusations of crimes, no jury, no due process, poor medical treatment for months. Mariam gets email one hour a day and she's been emailing with and included some of the emails in the article. Please check it out. The headline of it is Marco Rubio's punishing a teenage boy for his grandmother's sins. The first email, Mariam wrote me, it was about how she wanted her son to celebrate his birthday in freedom and this boy that got shackled and surrounded by vans at school drop off. Friends could watch because his grandmother did something in 1979 and it's fucking unimaginable. So I wrote about it yesterday and

3:13you know Mariam first wrote for the nation, which just would draw my attention to it and much credit to the nation for covering it. But last night I was like, I don't understand why this isn't getting more attention. Like I feel like if I went back in a time machine and we're chatting and it was whatever 15 years ago and we said, hey, in 2026 we're going to be doing internment camps for Iranians and Venezuelans. I think we just assumed that would have been a pretty major news story. This is something that we are talking about in history books, one of the horrors of what our country has done, one of the darkest chapters in our country's history. I was learning about Japanese internment and the way we treated the Japanese in high school, probably when I was about Mariam's son's age. And so we're doing it again and it's like nobody's even covering it. I searched Google News this morning for Mariam's name and looked back through. And when at first having an April, Mark opened out a press release where he tried to brag about how screaming

4:18Mary or whatever the grandmother's name is, her family, he's taken away their green cards. And so at that time, like there were a few articles about this, the Hill wrote about it, some local places in LA, the New York Post wrote a lot, kind of waving the bloody shirt about how happy the people at the New York Post are that we are keeping this child in a prison camp. New York Post was very excited about that. So they've written about it several times talking about how great it is. Besides that, Newsweek probably is the best article about this. They wrote something back in April. It can't April is what four months ago now? Five. Here's a CBS article. It's like, oh, there's one mainstream media outlet article from our friends at Barry Weiss's CBS. This is April 11, 2026, was written by Mark Osborne. Mark writes this, the United States has revoked the green cards and detained the family of Iranian regime propagandaist, Isah, Maryam and their son have been detained by ICE ahead of their deportation. The department said in the statement, asha meh is why full torque is professors. She goes on to talk about Isah's mother. And then they

5:22quote Mark, when we talk about how they came on a visa issued in 2014, how they're lawful, permanent residents. And then they go on to talk about other people related to terrorists that we've captured. I'm clear how that's relevant. That was April. So like, according to this article on CBS News in April, we were deporting them, which I would have been against. But at this point, Maryam, they want to be deported to a not to Iran, but like they offered to self-deport to Turkey. But we've captured them and we're trapping them. So we can't do that. So I don't know if I was Mark Osborne of CBS News who wrote about this on April 11, but how we're deporting these legal American residents. I don't know. I might be interested in doing a follow-up story on September 9, like why are they still in an internment camp? The State Department told them that we were deporting this person because they were a danger to the country. You would think that CBS News would

6:23have some follow-up questions. What is the danger? Why are taxpayers paying thousands of dollars a day to keep them in these kind of dusty hellscapes in Texas? When do they get access to do process? What is the rationale for this? Why are we punishing these people because of their bloodline? You would think that that would be something that would get more attention. And yet nothing, like there's nothing else. You just go through and like all summer there's been nothing that she wrote in the nation as I mentioned a couple weeks ago. So I don't know. I know we have some journalists to listen to the show and we have some Democratic politicians to listen to the show and others. And I would think that there would be other people that would care about the fact that like the United States government is currently holding a teenage boy in a prison camp because his grandmother was bad. Because I don't know. I think a lot of us probably have some bad family members including Marco

7:28Rubio. His grandfather was an illegal immigrant and his brother-in-law was a cocaine dealer. So anyway, that's where we're at on this. I have a very slow boiling simmering rage about like the lack of interest. I hate to be venting to all of you because all of you have been so good and many of you wrote to your members of Congress. The last time I raised an issue, the pregnant Venezuelan woman that we had in the internment camp who was trying to self-deport luckily finally after much hassling and much outrage. They've been allowed to be active in Venezuela. And so that's my honest good news. And so we know these people fold. We know they fold it on Oz Turk and on Secot. But the race of Oz Turk story for good reason was a major national news story. And I don't see how this is anything but even more outrageous than that given the length of their detention. That's where I'm at on that. Go read the story. Call your local member of Congress or send a letter

8:31to the editor, I guess. And we'll see if anybody in this country can be awakened to care about the fact that we're doing in term. I can't just again up next Jessica, Tarlauf of the five. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Here's a thought experiment for you. If you can wake up tomorrow and be better at one thing, what would that be? Today, maybe it for me, it's keeping calm. You know, because I don't want to stroke out while my child is still in elementary school. So that's something that I'm working on. What would it be for you? I'm not talking about like learn Chinese. I'm talking about like self improvement and inside. What can you do to become the best you? One way to kind of start to explore that once you've decided on what it is is through therapy. And with our friends at BetterHelp, Better is a feeling defined by you. And for BetterHelp, it's a BetterHelp therapist who really gets you to focus on global emotional well-being with thousands of therapists and millions of members in over 100 countries. It's about progress.

9:32So I'm trying to progress. If I've made any progress today, I'm being calm and avoiding a middle-aged stroke. I don't know that I have yet, but luckily, I'm doing a little therapy. And we're making some good progress. And yeah, that's life improvement. That's what it's all about. It's like home improvement at the Tim Allen show, but for your life, sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp.com slash the bulwark. That's betterhlp.com slash the bulwark. Hello and welcome to the bulwark daily. I'm your host Tim Miller. Could not be more excited to welcome back to the show. Co-host of Fox News, The Five, and the Raging Moderates podcast is branding of Long Van Gellisoff, author of a new book coming out this week. I disagree. Winning arguments without losing friends. Another thing I could really use the work on.

10:34Jessica Tarlaugh. I'm here for you. I'm I am great. I feel like it's a little bit of the calm before the big bookstore. Sarah is in the midst of it on the high seas. And I am watching with baited breath for how intense it is, but she's nailing it. She's nailing it. Go buy it. I've got it right here. How do you even know? You know, I get to support my guy. I know. I don't have my copy here, but I do have my copy. I'm going to like take a picture like eating it or something to make it feel fun. First. I just got next week. And that's what I'm just like I said to about General City yesterday. Listeners can purchase. I disagree and not feel any betrayal of Sarah because it's out next week. So you guys aren't competitors on the charts. You know, it's only Sarah versus Ted Cruz. We're friends. And that just concerns her friends. Okay. Well, maybe I want to lose some friends. We'll get to that. We'll get to the book stuff at the end. Maybe it's okay to lose a friend or two. Where's that? I get it. I just I want

11:36you to feel equipped to talk to these people. If you do want to keep them in your life or invite them back in. That's what I just agrees about. I'm not trying to force you to do anything. I just want you to be better when you get there. Yeah. All right. We'll explore the ways to do that here in a second. We're going to do the news first. Tonight we're having a midterm. I'm editing myself. Some people are calling it the Trump of Paloosa, which I like is it has lose right in the name, but they're trying to brand it as the midterm convention. It's not a convention actually. This is an important distinction. A convention is an actual thing. You know, we have delegates, do nominate people. It's a political process by which, you know, back in the old days before unfettered democracy, it's how we used to pick the candidates. Some of us in the pro-democracy movement have the contrarian view that there was some benefit to that. But anyway, that's neither here nor there. I can't possibly see how this is useful for him. But I don't know. You're kind of in the belly of the beast where I was watching Fox this morning, we get to that where they're going to

12:40try to spin it. There are some people on the network that will try to spin it as a positive. I go, what is even the possible positive outcome here? Steel man for me. What could work if anything? You're like preview of the five for me. What are you guys going to be talking about? What will Dana say? How will Dana argue that this is going to work? I don't think it's a day. There's not a Dana one. This is a Jesse one, I think, for how it's going to work. The Iatola is dead. That's always a good one now. We only have Iatola, Jr. Maybe he's gay. We hear about that a lot. That there are military has been decimated. Well, there's Biden sign. I know something, Laden is dead and GM is alive. What would be alive in there in their spinning? Iatola is dead. Trade world of Canada is alive. Very much alive. I wanted to figure out something about this. Anyway, there will be some talk of the accomplishments

13:40of Trump's second term and how the groundwork is being laid for an economic boom that will hit I don't know, November 1st. So it comes just in time for you to go and vote a couple days later. I don't know. We're going to hear about how there is a lot to talk about and how dire it will be if Democrats take control. I think it is going to be much more about the negative messaging than it is going to be about the positive messaging. Donald Trump has been leaning into this as he's been out on the campaign trail. He's going to go to what is it like 35 swing districts he's taunting people with. And you see the various degrees of abject terror coming across the faces of these Republicans who think I just stripped you off my website. And now you're actually going to come to hang out with me. But I think it's going to be a lot of the greatest

14:41hits that are not resonating with people right now. And it is very telling that so many Republicans are opting not to go. But obviously the tickets are not selling. I can't believe how much they want it to charge members to come. Like that money would clearly be better spent actually campaigning. And I think if you want to ask voters, even the biggest mega folks, like should you spend tens of thousands of dollars on going to this or like be here for a town hall? They probably say, maybe you should be here for a town hall. So I don't expect fireworks. I think it's going to be a very insular convention. And for me, it's about Trump's ego. And then I think it's also about the one year anniversary of Charlie Kirk's assassination, which is tomorrow. And which will be very, it's a very heavy thing. So I imagine because Vance is the headliner tomorrow night and Trump will do the closing remarks. That that'll be a big focal point. I try to be fair and balanced here. I will

15:43I'll give Trump this one thing listening to what you just said. I thought he was too old to kind of go out and do the campaign. He seemed pretty like he's kind of is walking with that hilt and he's dozing and falling asleep and maybe sharding in these meetings, depending on what you look at. And it's just not like God, 35 states feels like a lot. It's hard to travel in your it's hard travel in your 40s. It's hard travel in your 80s. You know, it wears on you. But so he is doing that. But like the interesting thing is it's funny like the contrast you said that like some of the front line people won't be there. But Trump's message is the opposite. He put out a bleep. Those like we don't need people who are up 45 points as much as we love them. Like we are trying to save the stage for the candidates who are in tight races. The candidates who are in tight races are like no, no opposite opposite. But even this midterms and I'm not sure how comfortable you are forecasting or you know what you're thinking about in terms of how the night will end up going. But

16:47candidates who should be in safe position feel concerned. And there's widespread reporting about that. You know, people waiting by double digits that are saying we're not equipped to handle this. We don't have enough money. Our voters are deeply upset and distrustful of our agenda and how we've been governing. And I do think on the flip side, you know, the Democrats have some real bad-ass candidates running in these districts. And I don't think that they expected for it to be quite that uphill of a battle to say if some of these seats. I just saw this this morning. It's just one example. This was last week I had Dr. D'Arica Appaluy who is over at majority Democrats on the show and she had highlighted a strict that wasn't even on on my radar, which is this Florida 22. Trump had won it like double digits. This poll I'm looking at right now, the Trump recall vote was plus 10. Some people lie. So maybe it's a little bit more than that. There are some people that are looking around right now and

17:50they're like, no, I didn't do. It wasn't me. The vote for Trump. So I think there may be the actual numbers a little higher than 10. And Pia Dandia is that she's highlighting, she's this really strong kind of surprising challenger. She's up to in that district, the Trump won by that. And so you're seeing that in a lot of places. And to me like that, the only case for this, you know, midterm rally that they're having is can you try to generate some excitement even if if it's a do it for Charlie like to try to shore up these plus 10, 12, 14 places, you know, to try to get people that are in the Republican vote that aren't really necessarily liable midterm voters to turn out. Like that's honestly the only thing I could think of that's even marginal useful. Yeah, I mean, the enthusiasm gap is enormous. And it has been consistently through the Trump era, you know, Democrats have been overperforming if they're losing their seats even by historic margins. And I kind of hate that comp, you know, and you're like, oh, you know,

18:52we got real close. Like I just want to win. But I'm, you know, some battles you can't win. Right. But you know, the timing of it that it's 9-11 on Friday, that like you said, if I do it for Charlie, there is a way to cast this as these are people who don't love our country. Right. They're not patriots like we are. And I'm sure there will be a lot of fear mongering about mom Donnie. There will be talk of the, you know, the 9-11 family is who don't want him there at the at ground zero on Friday morning. He is going to go, which I do think is the right thing to do. We're coming back to that. Yeah. Just a little, a little teaser. But that feels like the only way that they can really go on offense, you know, I'm sure how many shots are we going to have to take with Hassan Piker mentions, you know, there's going to be very little substance, I think, to the the content from the convention. Also, it's going to be so hot and miserable. You're lucky that

19:55you're on the other side of that crooked con stage, we're in, we're all on that panel together with the song, examine all the pictures. You are. I was right. Thanks to a moment. We took a picture solo outside and that lives like my colleagues every day are like that picture of you and Hassan is the biggest thing in my timeline because anything that I say, they're like, she loves Hassan Piker. She is a communist. She hits the country. She thought we deserved 9-11. That's how it works. And Hassan loves you. And you're like, I'm sitting here with you every day. Jesse, you're in favor of internment camps, but okay, we'll get back to that. No big deal. It's a tough spin for them a little bit on all this, you know, like getting people to get upset about some of these other things we'll talk about, whatever, whether who shows up to 9-11 memorials that Trump isn't showing up to. It's a little challenging when you have like gas prices jump this morning, like their biggest jump in a while. I think you'll kind of stopped monitoring this a little bit like right when the Iran war started. There was, you know, because there was this, it was so volatile. But now it's just

20:57been creeping up, creeping up, creeping up. It's now back over 100. Like in the early days of the Iran war, I was using the Tommy from Landman, you know, kind of measurement because he said one of the episodes that we want to keep it between 60 and 90. Because if it's over 90, then people start to get pissed at us and you can start to feel it. We're back over that right now. And you last night, we have central commands that are destroyed five are on the oil tankers, Iran fired at our base in Jordan. Question mark about whether their injuries there. Because the military lies to us about that. Michael Weiss, a new bull or contributor who we're excited about pointed out that Ukraine wanted just 300 patriots to help protect themselves this winter or running out of patriots. We wasted 60. It just a one night defending, you know, these attacks on Jordan. This seems to be the kind of out of control. The good news is hard to find because there's always some knock on effect from something

21:59that has major implications. And obviously we won't ever know the real source of the stockpile leaks at the outset. It started in the Atlantic and then it got to the times. But I firmly believe that it's JD Vance and his team. And they are the ones that have been looking at the writing on the wall with this. And whether or not they actually want to be able to help Ukraine at the level that you or I think that we should doesn't really matter because they know that something bad is going to happen. There is going to be a crisis moment whether that has to do with Russia or it has to do with China, these are the Taiwan, etc. Or in the Middle East if we keep going on this track. And we are not going to have the equipment to be able to do this. And it's a strange place to be for our government. You know, we have the best resources in the world, the elite fighting forces,

22:59all the things to have their head in the sand to this level. I don't even know how dangerous goals resignation didn't feel like a bigger deal to people. That's unheard of. The guy went around Secretary Hague Seth to the president directly and said he is making decisions that hurt our readiness for the future. We are eliminating drone units. We are firing every general that is in charge of something that we need to be able to become a modern fighting force. And it was like what a two day cycle. And then gone. Yeah, if that. Yeah. And we have vacancies atop the army. I like there are multiple positions at the top of the army now that he's resigned where like we don't have key leadership in place. We don't have confirmed leadership in place in the middle of a war of choice in Iran. And who knows potentially, you know, an increase

24:00as we start to head back into the winter in hostilities in eastern Europe. We also don't know what happened with past characters like the resignations that happened. Remember when we used to shoot at like random fishing boats in the Caribbean? Right. And kill innocent people and repatriate people to places they're not even from like, I mean, that feels quaint now looking back. But we still haven't heard from Admiral Holtzzy about why he resigned, you know, a year into a dream post for somebody. And I, you know, they're military folks. So I doubt the tell all is coming in the same way that it would from like a cable news host. But these stories, I'm not doing that. But these stories, that is not what I disagree as if I mean, it's okay to tease kill new souls in the right context. I mean, I don't, I think that if Pete Buttigieg became president next time and was like Jessica, I want you to be attorney general, you might be like, I don't know. I don't know if that's quite me, my role.

25:03Yeah. I need something else that involves more hair and makeup. Thank you very much, president Pete. But my point is we're moving so fast through stories with such enormous importance, especially in national security. And we are all a lot less safe as a result of it. And prepared for what the future holds. And this war, trade war with Canada, I think is a really strong indication of the fact that the rest of the world is not kidding when they say we're figuring it out without you. Like, we've got to go our own way. And it's not like we can wait a couple of years to see if president Pete or Ossoff or whoever it's going to be is going to bring back the old version of America because their, their new deals are going to last longer than this and their new alliances. And we will not be the entity, the country that was their partner when they really needed us to be. Canada holds its first defense coordination talks with China. Not a decade.

26:07Also a story that people barely looked at. I brought it up yesterday on Raging Moderates with Scott. I was like, this is an enormous thought in military relations between Canada and China. This is even just about trade, right? You're talking about military partnership. And again, I, it barely broke through. It's a good point on Halsey. I even, you know, like that was not at the top of my mind. You forgot Halsey. I think about him every day. Well, you know, it's important. Nice to call colleagues at the board. You know, like we must all have our hobby horses about all the horse, what's happening in the administration because it is impossible to keep track of all them. Like the human brain is not meant to keep track of the scandals that are happening in every single cabinet office, right? And among every single member of his family, has a different scandal. You know, so we all have our obsessions for me. It's Jared and the internment camps and, you know, other people focus on other stuff. But holes getting Halsey on the

27:08list of like the testimony list for Robert Garcia is pretty long. Yeah. I mean, he has to start like in Trumpland, I think. Right. But yeah, the list is very long and he said that, cushioned the cushioners at the top. Which thank God. I mean, Jared Kushner is kind of running illegal foreign policy as a non-government official on multiple fronts while taking money from from other countries. But the the open telegraphing of the polyanna attitude about these people, like, I mean, the day is of, you know, Whitcough saying, I'll just talk to Putin without a translator. Like nobody deal. He's a really good guy. And then you listen to Jared talking the last few days. And you're like, how did we end up in this fresh hell? Like, how is this possible? And what can be done about it? You know, you went in an election. Hopefully, you know, it's too big to Reagan and all the things. But the institutional rot is so deep at this point.

28:09I thought that the Whitcough comments. We were sitting outside just now, me, Jared and Carol, and then Yuri joined us. And we were all talking about when we retire, we'll have all these incredible stories and incredible memories. And yours will be right at the top of it all. I thought this was very revealing the way he basically just says, you know, this is all just a life experience. You know, it's kind of like life is short. What do the kids say they say is that we're doing it for the plot. I just want to have an interesting experience for the plot. And for me, like hanging out with you, Mr. Putin, who's bombing innocent and kidnapping kids and, you know, starting an invasion of choice, like just getting to come here to Moscow and have some vodka and talk to you is something I'm always going to remember. And it's just going to be great for my memoir. I talk to that. And that's the level of seriousness that we're doing with. They don't care at all.

29:10They're also so in awe of wealth and power that it can make anybody seem like an appealing person to have a chat with. You know, like they look at everything that's so gilded. You know, it's a dream architecturally for these people. What does Scott say that Trump would make everything into an Iraqi whorehouse if he could that Liberace designed? So, you know, Moscow has got all of that. I remember I went to the World Cup in Russia in 2018. And it's, I mean, St. Petersburg was really the most stunning thing. But you walk around Moscow and you look at it and it, you know, the empire feel is still there. And these guys are just so obviously in love with power even if it comes in dictatorial packages. I'm jealous. I don't know if I'll ever be able to go fear of imprisonment escaping me from ever visiting Moscow and Saudi. I got it. Yeah. No, and I started talking

30:15about how MBS was a hermaphrodite. I did. My husband did tell me that kind of prevented any trips to Riyadh, probably. Do you think it was worth it? I do. I don't know. I do. But it's, I would love to see Moscow and Riyadh. And I wish that, you know, they're people who can have freedom. Yeah, maybe one day. Yeah. Well, you know, and yesterday show with Pablo, we were talking about the way that Mark Walter was taking people's life insurance money and using it to help himself by sports teams and by sports championships, which is not legal. And that gets you thinking about life insurance, doesn't it? Making sure you can find a trusted life insurance partner about maybe you need to get some life insurance after all. And for me, then lucky to turn to our friends at Trust and Will, who make life insurance easy and secure. Trust and Will offers affordable attorney-designed estate plans online that you can create in its little, it's 30 minutes. They have an easy to use website.

31:18It's fast. And if you need expert input, they have an attorney support that's available to add to your plan. You can easily update your plan at every life stage or transition. Trust and Will's platform keeps everything organized, updated, and ready. So your loved ones never face this burden alone. Trust and Will's products are state-specific, into your needs and they're secure with bank level encryption and secure sharing of features. So your most important documents and details say protected and accessible. Trust and Will, affordable state plans, priceless piece of mind, get a trustedwill.com slash borrk and get 20% off. That's trustedwill.com slash borrk to get your 20% off. Trust and Will.com slash borrk. I want to just posit something to you that I think is I actually think might be wrong, but I spent the morning watching Fox and Friends to prep for the podcast. I have like a what I was working on in my head, kind of like an index for how bad things are going for Trump based on the Fox news topics of the segments. Okay. And like a Fox topic index

32:20success rating. And my theory of the case was that like there are like seven main categories. You've got bragging about something that went well that Trump gets credit for. It's like one. So if they're doing a lot of that, like things are going well for Trump, two is kind of like positive news about this other conservative thing that's happening, maybe not directly to Trump. Uh, number three is making up something good that Trump is doing. Number four is talking about bad elected Democrats, something they're actually doing bad. And then kind of a four B is making up something they're doing bad. And then if we're trying to get into these last three categories, things aren't going so well for Trump. We're going to talk about a random crazy Democrat. We're going to talk about the WNBA or some culture issue or the last category, the juicy one that we really love that you get to bring to the five is we kind of have some criticisms of what Trump is up to. Like maybe it's not perfect. Yeah. And as I was watching Fox in French this morning with this rubric in mind, I was looking through and you know, we had trade goutty to eight minutes on how Lane Kiffin is bad. So that's a classic number six.

33:25Blaming House Democrats for killing the Lindsey Graham sanctions bill. That's a four B. That's making up something bad. But Democrats are doing Mike Johnson. It's running now. You know, we go on and on. You you had bragging about Trump's midterm convention. This is a great idea. That's a number one. So like as I watched, I don't know. I was hoping it was going to be worse. I was hoping there was going to be more of a sense of just me. I want to like all six. I want to know. There you go. Was that on purpose? Oh, yeah. No. Does that make me like, Jen, do you? I want it all six. Yeah. I was like, I was ready. I was wanted some delicious six. Sevenths, you know, just WMBA Lane Kiffin and people being like, gas prices are a little high. But I didn't get that. Tell me what you think about the index. But more like, is it can you sense a vibe shift around there or not really? I will say that you've definitely spent more time thinking about this coverage than I have. And I actually, I will certainly today because I didn't

34:27catch any of that. So I don't know what the vibes are in that particular show. But I do think in general and you see this found out across supporters of the president in every facet. You know, people who go on TV and also in elected and people in surrogate spaces that there is, he probably doesn't like that. They feel that there is more leeway for criticism. But there is. And the, you know, liberation day, I think was sort of the kickoff to it. I mean, if you think about that, it was only like what three or four months into the new administration anyway. But the war in Iran has really upset the apple cart in this sense because there is an overwhelming feeling that it is not actually going well and that we have moved so far from the original goal posts, which are things that I think we could all in principle say would be good if they happened. I didn't

35:28agree with going in and doing this and thought the idea that it was going to be, you know, a 48-hour adventure was ludicrous. But sure, what I love a world in which Iran never gets a nuclear weapon and that the proxy forces are taken out and that the people are free. And, you know, they're not in weapons deals with the axis of evil, you know, like all the things that all sounded good. And it was clear from, I don't know, a couple of weeks in that we were not trending in that. It was clear from hours in that we are not trending in that direction. And I think that that has been communicated in a wide variety of ways. Some of it explicit. Sometimes it's, you know, I don't know if it's the president's advisors, right? Like, we're not going to lay this at his feet. Like, he's getting bad advice. And I think that when you see, like what Dan Driscoll did for instance, that you get the sense that he is getting bad advice. That Pete Heggseth is not pushing us

36:30in a good direction. And that the people who have his ear, it's funny. I'm not sure if you've been thinking about this, but their energy levels are obviously different, Trump and Biden. But there is the same feeling that he's running an insular presidency the same way that Biden did where there are only five people who actually get to talk to him or have an impact on his thinking. And that's a very dangerous place to be, no matter if you are a president that actually believes in democracy or one like the one that we have right now. So I'm not sure if that fully addresses your question in the way that you would have liked. And you want it if you wanted me to play, you know, one through seven. I don't have a good answer. Yeah, what are you going to get? What's on the five rundown today? Let's look at that. I can go through what the categories are. Now, I mean, it only doesn't in that, I guess just on the Iran thing in particular, like, I'm tuning in and out. I'm not Aaron Rupar here watching three cable channels every minute of the day for 24 hours. So there's stuff on this. But like it has been kind of it's notable that

37:34like there's still some Iran war jingoism happening. Anyway, from like the times that I'm watching, you see a lot of criticism and kind of the Alts mega media on the right, you know, of the Iran war. And I think that like there's still a bit of a wagon start clicking. I think you mentioned the Biden parallel. I think back to Afghanistan, folks know that like MSNOW is like going to be quite generous to Biden in a lot of ways and the Biden administration and they were like, that's just reality. Like there's a lot of criticism of the Afghanistan, what's wrong on the show? Yeah, on the shows. Do you notice that growing or like not really, I guess is my question. I think that there were fever pitch moments and we are not in one because I just I don't think it's the front page story. And that is a story in and of itself, right? That it should be a bigger deal that we are actually there's a war going on, whether he wants to call it that or not. And they want to talk about a dumb, you know, 48 hour circle jerk and Dallas instead, right? So

38:39that is that is saying something about the state of the war. But when there are moments where it is obviously going badly, like taking over the state of form moves, you know, the MOU for instance, right? That was apparently Iranian propaganda and then it turned out to be completely accurate that we had actually agreed to these kinds of terms. You saw that across the board, even from the president's most ardent defenders, whether it was because they were upset vis-à-vis the impact on Israel because there's a contingent where it's about that for instance, or part of this America first contingent who's thinking like it's America first doesn't mean American surrender. Right? Like we would have rather that we weren't in there in the first place. There's also a little bit of a rug poll where they like leaked the details of the MOU and a lot of the folks on Fox and other places Trump defenders like went out to be like, it's not this. This is misinformation from Iran and then the real one ended up being exactly right. I mean, you were talking

39:42with that on the ship. Well, not only that, it was crazy coincidence because JD Vance was on the five the day that this happened. That's right. And so I'm sitting next to him. And he said that I was parroting Iranian propaganda and I said from the Wall Street Journal, like let's be real here, man. And then within 24 hours, the White House had confirmed it. So a statement on the ease at which these people will lie will look you in the eye or at the very least look a camera in the eye and say the direct opposite of the truth. And also what a scramble it is and that they feel to some degree at least invincibility that they can keep bullshitting through this. But that's why elections happen. And you see this uprising in people where they are following these stories. We went through a bunch of them just a few minutes ago. Like, why are we not talking about this or that? I'm stunned if you go through the comments on the bulwark or on raging moderates everywhere. People are paying so much attention to all of this.

40:49It has kicked the American populace into high gear where they say, yeah, my gas prices, obviously I know about that. You've got a daughter. I've got a couple back to school. I mean, the cost of school supplies. These things that are really hitting families hard, but they haven't forgotten Admiral Halsey. They remember that what Dandruff Skull did and they're tracking all of this stuff that the administration would love if they could just push into the closet. Do you think the JD, obviously you can consider this head, but like your sense kind of having that dispute with them on TV. Do you think he was lying to you about will the MOU or do you think he just was so out of the loop and he's on his book tour that he just kind of like many people in Trump's defense, like assumed it couldn't be that bad? I don't know. It's hard for me to think that the point person on the war doesn't know what's going on with something that is as big of a deal as the MOU.

41:55I'm sure that there are some language experts that could parse through exactly what he said so that it wouldn't mean that he was really saying the thing that we all heard and experience. I mean, Kong, you and Iran propagandists for talking about what was actually in the MOU as was revealed 24 hours later seems like if not an intentional lie, a smear. It didn't feel great. Getting in the pushback of we're talking about the Wall Street Journal here did feel great though because there's nothing I think more potent than you know this obviously coming from Republican conservative world that being able to use their own words against them or their own papers of choice or you know allies is the most effective thing because if there's anything close to a liberal attach to it they immediately discount everything and it's you know

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45:00you head to the number three d.a.y blinds.com slash the bulwark. All right let's say I was over I know we'll get to the book. The final segment that I watched in Fox this morning. What a it's just quite a joy to wake up and kind of get to spend some time with my friends Brian kill me etc and so I just I appreciate it all the time I got but it ended with a segment on 9-11 families and this is per day and actually she's interviewing somebody who's dad died 9-11 obviously tragic but then it pivots into the desire to ban Zoran from going to the memorial. The elected mayor of New York on the same day is 9-11 Jake Lang who's a kind of far right racist provocateur is doing a march on Mamdani it's going to be an against Islamification of America rally that's on 9-11 Giuliani so it's offensive for him to go and here is councilwoman Vicki Paladino. I'm not asking politely for the mayor not to come to 9-11 to that ceremony.

46:05I am asking I am demanding that he not show his face at that sacred ground. He does not belong there. So I guess this is a 4-B we're talking about the something that I guess I mean he didn't do anything it's you know it's not like you can imagine them praising him if he said he wasn't going to go. They're just going to use Zoran as a lightning rod because he's a Muslim. Yeah. Part of this also is the association with Hassan Piker to go I don't know what number Hassan is on your on your chart. No I don't like to Democrat. We're not even a Democrat really but good. No. I'm a tent mate sometimes I think is the best way. What is the association exactly? Does Hassan work for him? I think he came to me like he was I think so either way it's a DSA thing and it doesn't matter. That's the point now that it doesn't actually matter you know if you have a certain way of

47:10talking about your political opponents you just go with it no matter the details and I certainly know what it feels like to be the Debbie Downer that's like could we actually unpack what Angie Nixon's policies are or could we talk about the fact that Abdul Al-Said isn't a DSA member. Now is he very progressive 100% but you know the guy's a capitalist and owns a bunch of property and his wife doesn't even take Medicare. So like you know what are we doing here? This is very sad and personal to me. So Vicki Paladino is being Vicki Paladino. She's always like that. She's a vibe. I totally get it but I feel awful that these families who have suffered such tragedy have something else that is so upsetting to them. You know that day and the 25th anniversary should be able to just be about your loved ones right and the terror attack and the aftermath of it

48:13without this complication whether I agree with where they land or not and I don't. I think that the mayor the duly elected mayor of New York City should be at the 9-11 ceremony which he has said and he looked quite pained answering questions about it. Mom Donnie he said you know I love my city and I love my country and I will be there but I hate this for them right that's something that's already so hard and traumatizing feels worse. I mean I wouldn't pick on the family members but I don't know the politicians who are gining it up. Yeah the commentators like I mean this is anti-Muslim hysteria is what this is you know you can't imagine any other like somebody from any other racial or ethnic group who's a politician in America people saying you can't come to them memorial because the perpetrator of the crime was your same race or religion like that's insane.

49:14It's a Muslim special for sure and there's also a lot of misinformation circulating even amongst 9-11 families around the 9-11 Memorial and Museum which Mike Bloomberg built and a group of them felt or were misinformed that control was then going to be ceded to mom Donnie right that this was something that actually got passed to whoever's in office which doesn't make any sense because De Blasio wasn't in charge of it and Eric Adams wasn't in charge of it but there's a lot of anger and anxiety and some degree of Islamophobia percolating in there and I don't know I feel badly for them frankly. You were not the biggest zelaran fan at the start I'm wondering what you assessed for how he's been doing I think that in some level and this is bad because it's a Islamophobia my silver lining that I'd put on this is like I don't know he hasn't really given them folks

50:15who are as political opponents a whole lot to work with like about his actual governing I mean you know the pietta terror attacks or whatever some people didn't like how he was targeting specific individuals I guess what I tried to say is like the level of fear mongering about what would be happening in New York versus what's happening in New York it feels like he's been pretty practical no I knew lived there maybe I'm missing something no I mean you see that in as approval rating which is at I think 57% which is pretty high and also he has a very high pleasantly surprised rating from people like me who were nervous about this and didn't know what mom donny administration was going to look like I have friends in the modern orthodox community they are still not fans of mom donny and you know don't feel like he is treating anti-semitism anti-semitic attacks that have happened in the city you know issues around demonstrations outside

51:20of temples for instance that that has been you know taken as seriously as it as it should be but I think on the policy front he has focused on the things that everyone was actually pretty excited about or could wrap their heads around like why people would want their mayor to do these things right talking about universal childcare and extending free pre-K the way that he communicates has continued which would be an expectation from a millennial mayor like that but I think that it does make people feel more connected to him and frankly you know he has in a lot of ways I think sidesteps some of the big mistakes that folks in the DSA have made because he stands shoulder to shoulder with police commissioner Jessica Tish as often as he can and touts the drop in crime I mean we had the lowest number of murders and how long was it over the summer and you know summer there's usually an uptick a lot of people around the streets kids are not in school etc so I am definitely

52:24in the pleasantly surprised category you know he's definitely those like if you look at Chicago San Francisco some of the other left-marrows mistakes he's avoided I guess last thing on this in the transitions of the book as you wrote about this yeah you lost your dad was related to the christian agents after 9-11 I guess there were some documents from that that were yeah private that they put out this week I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts on on kind of that and how it's impacting your family yeah so I think that this is amazing that he's done this and I don't want to make a joke out of it but the fact that he's but it feels like the Epstein files for 9-11 survivors right and their families can I ask what was the argument for keeping them secret prior a lot of powerful people made bad decisions right and came out there and said things like the air is safe you can go back to your homes now you can go back to your offices and there has you know been a constant drumbeat

53:31from people in the 9-11 community and then advocates like John Stewart who was out talking about it yesterday as well with Mamdani standing behind him saying like we are owed this at this point and I don't know I think I think it's very much a stain on a New York leadership that we haven't been able to see it before because there are real present health implications for people you know as you said my dad died of tongue cancer related to 9-11 two of my best friends one of them their mother passed away from a variant cancer linked to 9-11 the other a lymphoma linked to 9-11 and we are not unique in this and a lot of people think about 9-11 as that tragic day and the first responders but quite literally an entire set of communities in the vicinity and then by extension of people were commuting in and out because Wall Street had to reopen are still living with the

54:33knock on effects of 9-11 and it'll be interesting to see how this move to release all these documents is taken by members of the 9-11 community who might not want him right at at the ground zero ceremony but they say oh this is the mayor who's actually giving us access to this and you know the 9-11 victims fund and all of the machinery around it the infrastructure that they've created is the best that there is I mean these are the most kind and caring people that work there like my mom has worked with my father was treated at Sloan Catering and has worked with their grief groups and social workers she said nothing compares to the people that work with the 9-11 community you know it's the same thing as that day when people just poured in from across the country where they just got up and got in their fire trucks or in their cars and that spirit is still very much alive and

55:33it feels like having access to these documents and then by extension registering yourself you know with the 9-11 fund so they can track like you know I'm 42 years old I was a senior in high school in 9-11 what does this look like for my generation what does it look like for the little kids that were out in those playgrounds you know and it's a lot but I think it I think it's a good thing and so it should be you know and it's like rather than as a like political football at this point and now a message from our sponsor the reading room here at the bulwark we talk a lot about Jeffrey Epstein and how important it is to keep this story in the news since there's still a lot we don't know well some Prince Vars actually printed all 3.5 million of the released Epstein files bound them into 3437 volumes and built a free traveling exhibit so the public can bear witness to these crimes it's called the Donald J Trump and Jeffrey Epstein Memorial Reading Room which is a hell of a name

56:37and it works how it sounds you walk in and they're the Epstein files for the ceiling plus the timeline of Trump and Epstein's four decade friendship and talks and panels with Epstein survivors the reading room is in Dallas this week the same time as the president huh that's a quinky dink so if you're in Dallas go ahead and check them out then they head to Iowa Ohio Michigan and a bunch of other cities throughout the fall now it turns out moving 17,000 pounds of evidence around the country isn't cheap in the reading room relies on donations if you want to know more about how you can donate or visit the reading room there's more information in the morning shots newsletter or you can visit trumpebstin reading room dot com slash bulwark that's trumpebstin reading room dot com slash bulwark all right let's talk a little bit more on the book i want to frame this as here's a strategy for discussing debating living with people that you're stuck with we like you're stuck with the five people or you might be maybe stuck is a little a little cheek I do have free will you do but you

57:41know family members yes how high school pals you don't want to get rid of you know like people in the community you know i don't want to stop going to my ls you tailgate because couple of guys are in mega hats you know like there's certain things you don't want to give up you want to one way to do this is just you know talk about football or the weather or whatever gumbell but if you decide you want to engage if that's not possible some tools for doing it so what launch you give the pitch yeah so the pitch is that i disagree is a survival manual for having contentious conversations and the subtitle is winning arguments without losing friends i totally get it if you want to lose those friends like if the gumbo chat is not even good enough to get you through a tailgate but what i have found and i talked with Sarah about this as well and she gets this from her focus groups a lot that even when people outwardly say or behave in

58:43their day to day like they are impervious to the effects of having lost these relationships when you really dig in with them they know that life is longer than this political moment and they would really like to find a way back into each other's lives and the book is part memoir and then part how to and i use my life experiences everything from how i grew up and what the dinner table in my household was like to the table on the five to chart this course through acquiring and the hard work frankly of developing a skill set that has allowed me to be able to very peacefully coexist with people who feel very differently than me about politics about the president and i'm sure that you got this too as someone who works in communications we will say like how do you do this right i want to be better at being able to talk about this really hot stuff

59:50and that's what the book says so every chapter has a little tips box at the end because i wanted it to be able to be a business book for people also obviously there's a lot about rewiring your brain to think in data and numbers i have the phd and politics did a big you know quantitative study for that i worked as a pollster the numbers matter you know think in averages and not anecdotes be able to process criticism better you know that if someone's criticizing you on style you probably won on substance and i really hope that it's going to be able to help people one thing when i watch you and i think about is this kind of slices both ways a little bit because like i really admire like how prepares you are and you know my kind of style when i'm going on to peers as i think about two or three stats and then just drop insults this is not in the spirit of your book but you know whatever um that's kind of where i shine you're so measured and so prepared

1:00:52and oftentimes you know like you did with the vice president are like dropping the facts that negate the feelings that they're offering but the like the thing that just makes you wonder is i kind of i don't know some of these people aren't moved by facts right yeah and so at some level if you're engaging on like here's the facts and they're like engaging on a gut level is that is there a disconnect totally and i mean it's funny now to have transitioned into feeling like the embodiment of ben Shapiro circa 2012 when he first said the facts don't care about your feelings and then that obviously became the rallying cry of the trump defending right if for 2016 you know post-Axis Hollywood tape where it's just like okay yeah you know what we don't actually need a moral leader i don't need to you know elect someone who i would leave like alone to babysit my kids you know i want someone that's gonna rev the economy and you know has the right ideas on foreign

1:01:56policy so yeah sometimes there is just a massive disconnect and one thing that is a big through line in the book is that i don't see my job and i don't see your job or what people you know who think like us and are are talkers professionally are doing as necessarily changing minds but opening them up to the possibility that there is an alternative point of view worth considering and that's why it's so important to also be a recurring character in people's lives you know if you drop in like you say like i prepare for peers i want to say these couple of things but then i also want to make sure that like i love this incredible insult yeah right that i have been brewing at whatever mbs is a hamaferdite a truth nuke on you know tim pool or whoever is sitting there like i totally get that but i'm in a different kind of relationship with my co-hosts and i'm here you know half the week because Harold Ford is on half the week but basically every day

1:02:56right i'm in the building doing something and that's the another Harold Ford clips out there sorry keep going i'm just you don't have to respond it's a different argumentation style okay one way that's nice it's diplomatic that's a lesson from the book diplomacy it is a lesson from the book um not and i get it some people don't want to be diplomatic but in doing research for this i i looked at a lot of the social science related to how we actually hear and process information that flies in the face of deeply held beliefs and i didn't realize that actually your threat reflex goes up in the same way as if you were scared because you see someone in an alley and that your pain sensors go off so when you're having a conversation with someone and you're like really laying into them and you're like half so over 70% of the people that ice are picking up haven't committed any crime and they're looking at you like they're in pain like they actually are and feeling and understanding that really changed the way i thought about

1:03:58a lot of these conversations that you have to not only keep your side of the street clean but you have to understand where the other person is coming from and that's not just how they grow up and obviously you can make a better argument when you really understand the totality of the person but that there's a real struggle going on and likewise or correlated i guess i should say what what happens to us when we're confronted with information that flies in the face of our long held beliefs and narratives because we react the same way as humans. So what is your best short piece of advice for people who i'm sure you get the question i get it i'm sure you get it a thousand times more what am i supposed to do with my family like how do what do i do i don't want to stop talking to my dad or my brother or whatever but they're just off the deep end what do i do. So i mean it's one of the lessons in there and it i use the example of talking with Greg my co-host after Charlie Kirk was murdered

1:05:03that really taught me this lesson about the value of listening and just how badly people want to be heard and how oftentimes liberals are the first ones to cut off actually not only cut off the relationship but in conversation. So the last start of listening i think is a big component of it but this marriage between averages and anecdotes i think is the special sauce in having these conversations and i call it in the book your soft start the way that you build connective tissue and a closeness in a conversation that could turn contentious before you move into your database worldview and i'm not saying you're going to sit at Thanksgiving and be like the pupil the npr pull the Washington post uh did you see the fox pull like no one wants that i would get kicked out of my own uh my own celebrations but i think that people are usually too often in one camper the other they're either an automaton or they're just a big bag of feelings and if you

1:06:09have listened and given them the space that they that they want and that they need to express their point of view then you come in with your soft start and your data i think that you will have a lot better of a Thanksgiving and actually the alternate title i don't say i'll put the book here was surviving Thanksgiving because that is what i hear from people where they're just like i can't fucking get through this this is so miserable so my appendix is 10 tips for your table which is a cliff's note it's like you got to be at your uncles in an hour this is how you talk about abortion this is how you talk about ice this is how you talk about the corruption so how you talk about the constitution all the stuff that might come up i think that's particularly valuable for family members and i'm a big people don't let us always like to hear this it's all email me and kind of i think sometimes because i can be such a dick people want me to be like fuck them you know and i am a softie and the d i have a hard candy shell in a soft center you know and i'm like i want people to be able to to you know coexist with their loved ones life is too short for otherwise

1:07:12the professional people that you deal with though i do kind of put in a different category and like this is a thing that frustrates me about Greg got told he mentioned about you give a story in the book about ails about how like he told you in 2016 he first met with them the t.s. for ksick and he's kind of moderate and like when i read things like that it gives me this rage inside and like there's this moment on the five recently where jesse did something the like has received more compliments than anything i think anyone's done on fox it a long time which was you got to the w into me a topic and he's like i'm not going to pretend to be mad about this yeah and i think there is a reason why why that resonated with people and i can just speak for myself is like it was like this oasis in the desert where i'm like looking at all these people and i'm like you're full of shit like you would be one thing if you like really deeply believed this but like i think that there are elements of it you deeply believe for of course right it's not like you're not conservative but like there is this fakery that happens and when all there's all this pain out there in the world

1:08:14like when we see the suffering that's being wrought by this administration like it it makes me want to just scream in the face of the people that are you know spinning for it in ways that they know at some level or disingenuous and like that is where where i wonder how you how you go a different path than what i wanted to which is how i don't choose violence yeah how do you not choose violence in that case well i would say you know that moment obviously which went you know very viral is consistent with how jesse talks about those issues he is not down the rabbit hole in the same way and you even saw that in his interview with abdual al-sayat where he's talking about like dangleings and things like that and the natalie harp comment from john awhself again he said i'm not going to pretend that this offends me so i picked out gregg and rhodger ales is the

1:09:17people that i was that you want to do murder yes and the book is very clear also on what a bad guy rhodger ales is i was just an important anecdote to share it is i was just using that as representive of the fakery on the record yeah rhodger ales bad dude uh what's about dude and here's the thing and i think it comes you know in part from obviously knowing these people much more personally than someone who just consumes the show or most of the time people who just watch clips of the show i mean people who are out in the you know pro-democracy youtube ecosystem probably don't know that i can talk for longer than 60 seconds out of clip right because they've only seen acen's clips of me flying around with a narration from adam mockler or you know someone who's like we got to talk about this thing and the show is a lot more than that and i'm not saying that what about is um

1:10:19is the right way to play this game but i have i'm able to put myself and i have heard this from my colleagues when i bring up this stuff because it is an ongoing fight that i actually have with Greg about trump where he's like why do you care so much that i like him and i i said it's not just like a friend you're bringing to the bar that i find annoying like this is someone that is putting decisions to place that the consequences are people are dying from it right like at a home and abroad this is happening and then and it's you know it's dirty politics in this sense but they often bring up how many of us sat on tv and didn't acknowledge an enormous immigration crisis not i mean maybe not in the extremist sense of my work is we are rolling your eyes at peak it was like 230 000 people from the street killing people though it's like okay fine then fuck you then then get mad then then don't fucking smear and a good like those are conversations

1:11:26that i have had right where i have said that and push back and been loud and you know slamming hands on the table but there's this sense that you know we're on this higher moral plane and that we are legitimizing them you hear this i hear this all the time from the left you know don't platform this person or that or this gives them legitimacy like we are not the gatekeepers anymore we are not the arbiters of who people take seriously and who they agree with and i would much rather be in the conversation and be able to be representing my point of view and the point of view of tens of millions of people who think the same way that i do about everything from Renee good and Alex pretties murder to how you know immigration enforcement is happening to what the dobs decision did to millions of women across this country to the disastrous war in Iran there is an opportunity to be able to engage that we miss out on because we rage too hard and i don't you

1:12:30i'm not on a sedative i don't take sedatives but i need one yeah i i i know a guy for sure i can help you out i know that that isn't a good enough answer for you no look i'm happy you're out there doing it i guess i guess my point is that it's what you're doing is different than what Greg's doing because you're an honest broker and like it's just not true like you did criticize Biden's immigration policy at afghanistan policy and it's like okay so just because whoever you know random and i don't want to i don't want to spare anybody so random lefty resistance person never did yeah okay so what like this is what you learn when you're nine you know like just because Jamie you know if i can you know jumped off a bridge does that mean you're going to and it's like like literally the first moral test that you get taught by your parents and like i have little kids so i do not want to angle them yeah i you just you have to move

1:13:32past that well you don't that's that you don't right and that is it's totally fine to feel that way but i think that oftentimes we are missing out on understanding the point of view of millions of people who are not represented necessarily in what Greg is saying and have a somewhat more muted perspective but who are genuinely flummoxed by our parties inability to acknowledge things that are meaningful to them whether that's knowing the names of american citizens killed by illegals who should have been deported eight offenses ago you know like angel moms versus the black lives matter movement right and i i was very aware of the fact that i could rattle off the names of all of these unarmed black men that were killed by the police but i didn't know the names of these girls like

1:14:36a Kate Steinley for instance and obviously i think Lincoln Riley you know set off a little bit of a different trend in that sense but those are people that are losing their lives too and i don't think that it hurts us being able to put their killers in jail i know i just want to put their killers in jail who yeah no they do the first thing killed Alex Freddie and her name good are still on the street totally yeah no but i will say i mean i i'm going to be i guess that person like when you watch these speeches that some you know blue city mayors or blue state governors give you know railing against ice which i agree with you know i think that they are and out of control force operating with reckless abandon they don't have enough experience to be doing the job they are breaking the law they are violating you know americans rights and people who are here illegally their rights which they have Antonin Scalia even said that but we don't weave in

1:15:38these important points into the way that our rhetoric is around these issues and you just hear ice out no cooperation even in a state where there has been someone who was recently murdered by someone who was here illegally and it is just not that hard people like i was saying that they know about dandrisco and they know about admiral hulsey and they are they remember everything because the average american is smart and they are interested and and they are informed and they care about this country and i don't think that we always talk to them at a way that meets their level of care and concern and intelligence on these issues and i really wish that our platform would shift to make that more obvious like once tom homin came in and after christy no mcgripe but we know we're pushed out it made sense that ten walls and mayor fri said we're going to work with you right to get the bad guys out of here because then it will be even more obvious that you're just

1:16:41going after whoever is a little bit brown and like i want everybody to do that because the enormity of their cruelty will be so much further on display but we give them we don't get them licensed but we give them the cannon fodder to keep having these terrible polarizing conversations and then we waste valuable time having to defend it and say well obviously i'm not for keeping you know people here who commit crimes on american soil like you cross the border that's one thing but like you hurt an american you should be out of here no jeska i'm dead serious when i say this i just like i was saying earlier that you know everyone has to have their hobby horses and a role to play to make sure people understand what's happening in the world um i you know we're all built different you know i wasn't never going to be the defensive lineman for ls you you know there's nothing i could do and i don't think i could have been the person to sit there the last nine years and you are you do a great job i'm much better job than howard and we appreciate that you're doing it

1:17:46and and it's a good lesson for family members because we are completely aligned on that so people should go get the book um especially you know what thanks given coming up i'm sure you need some tips you're doing some tips thank you for having me uh the book is called i disagree winning arguments without losing friends that's just tar off come on back soon all right girl oh yeah absolutely i'll come anytime you want me have fun on the book tour go check out an ragey moderate everybody will be back tomorrow with another edition of the show see you all then peace lord i guess i went and broke there family tradition the bowlwork dailies brought to you thanks to

1:18:47the work of lead producer kady kuper associate producer ansley skipper and with video editing by dante de cico and audio engineering and editing by jason brough