Jessie Buckley loves the ‘shadowy bits’ of her characters

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This is fresh air, I'm Terry Gross. The film Hamnet is nominated for eight Oscars, including

Best Actress from, I guess, Jesse Buckley. Hamnet's other nominations include Best Picture,

Best Director for Chloe Zhao, who's also nominated for Best Adapted Screenplay, along with

Maggie O'Farrell, the author of the novel Hamnet, which the film is based on. Buckley

plays William Shakespeare's wife, Anya's Halfaway. Little is known about Shakespeare's real

wife, the film is largely an imagined version of her. What's true is that the couple's

son Hamnet died at age 11 from the plague. In the film, he catches it from his twin sister.

Shakespeare has already left the couple's home in the country to go to London and work on

writing and staging his plays, and has promised to bring the rest of the family as soon as

he settled and has a little more money. When Hamnet gets sick and it's clear his life

is in jeopardy, Anya's cause for her husband to come home, but he doesn't make it in time.

Shakespeare and Hamnet don't get to say goodbye, and Anya's is left to experience the horror

of her son's death without her husband. In this scene, when Shakespeare does return, she's

angry that he came too late, but she also feels guilty that she didn't pay enough attention

to Hamnet while she was caring for their daughter who survived the plague. Shakespeare

is played by Paul Mescal.

I should have paid him more attention. I always thought she was the one to be taken away

when all the while it was him. I was full.

No, there's nothing any one could have done to save him. You did everything that you could.

All I did. You weren't here. I would have cut my heart out and given it to him, I would

have laid my life down on the ground for him, and no one would take it. I know.

You don't know. You don't know. You weren't here. He died in agony. He was an agony.

Anya's cried and cried, and he cried, and his little body was rattened, and don't

shush me. He was so scared and you weren't here.

Hamnet has become known for leaving a lot of people in tears. Buckley won a Golden Globe

for her role on Hamnet. Other films of which she received various awards or nominations include

The Lost Daughter, Women Talking, Beast, Wild Rose, and Men. Her next film, The Bride,

a feminist take on The Bride of Frankenstein, opens March 6th. On TV, she was a star of

season four of Fargo and a star of the HBO series Chernobyl. She won an Olivier Award

of Britain's equivalent of a Tony for her performance in a revival of Cabaret. Hamnet

is now playing in select theaters nationwide and is also available to watch streaming at

home. Jesse Buckley, welcome to Fresh Sharon. Congratulations on your Oscar nomination and

your Golden Globe win. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

My pleasure. What were you able to learn about Shakespeare's real wife? And how does that

compare with how she's depicted in the movie? How you depict her in the movie?

Well, I think before I'd read this book, you know, what had been written about Shakespeare's

wife was, it wasn't great. You mean it wasn't positive or there wasn't a lot? No, it wasn't

positive. I think she was kind of given the title of being a woman that had kept him back

from his genius and I think what Mario Farrell so brilliantly did, not just with Agnes and

Shakespeare's wife, but also with Hamnet. Their son was to bring these people who, in our

imaginary world, filled Shakespeare and the plays that have lived forever and given them

status beside this great man, which is full and vibrant. In this imaginary version of her life,

people think she must be a part which, because she was born on the woods and so was her mother.

And she knew so much about herbs and herbal medicine and got along with animals. She was a falconer.

So we don't know how true that is, right?

No, but I think it's interesting, you know, I think what is so frightening about her?

Like that was a question I was asked, like what is it about this woman that is other

that people feel a need to call her the a forest witch or a daughter of a forest witch or

you know, somebody that is too much against the society at the time. And my experience of playing

this incredible woman was her uncompromising embodiment and connection to nature and her own

elemental nature. And I guess at that time it was kind of the beginning of puritism and

capitalism and paganism was kind of becoming something scary and people were beginning to

decipher themselves off like machines, you know, how you could work a land and create produce

with something that at that time in history was becoming conscious in the culture. And yet this woman

was just deeply connected to nature. One of the producers, Pippa Harris, is quoted in the

production notes, talking about how you embody the character of Agnes. She says about you,

she's quite a wild child in the sense that she's very much at one with nature. She's slightly

mystical, she believes in the soul and the spirits and she's a really caring person. When you hear

that, does that sound like you? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I grew up around a lot of nature. I grew up in

southern Ireland in a town called Calarney, which has lots of mountains and lakes and we, there was

a lot of freedom and expression by just living in that place when we were younger. And I think when

you grow up in a landscape like that, your mind and your soul is wild, you know, things just

grow because they want to grow. There's no planting or formula to the nature in that place. And I

think that was really informative to me as a child and still is. Getting back to that quote,

do you believe in spirits and consider yourself a little mystical? Because I'd love to hear more

about that if you care to share it. Spirits, I do. I believe in energy. I believe that like

you have a conversation with somebody's energy and spirit, absolutely. And I think

even people who've passed that there is a spirit in the very memory of them that lives on.

And I guess in the mystical sense is like, I guess what that's making me think of is like,

it's about curiosity, isn't it? Of curiosity of an unknown and a seeking. I don't, yeah. And I

guess I like to live in that place is to be curious about something unknown. One of the best

known scenes in the movie is when your son has just died and you're just like howling

with grief and despair. And I'm wondering is that something that you rehearsed a lot or prepared for

or did you try to be spontaneous about it? Because like that's a scene that really brings out

everyone's tears. No, I didn't know that that was going to happen or come out. It wasn't

in the script. I think really Chloe asked all of us to dare to be as present as possible.

And of course leading off to, you know, you're aware that this scene is coming. But that scene

doesn't stand on its own. By the time I met that scene, I had developed such a deep bond with

Jacobi Joupe who plays Hamlet and Paul and Emily Watson and all the children. And we really

were a family. And Jacobi Joupe who plays Hamlet is such an incredible little actor and an

incredible soul. And we really were a team. And I think we both recognize where we might go,

but where that might end we didn't know. And look, the death of a child is unfathomable. I don't

know where it begins and ends. Out of auto respect, I tried to touch an imaginary truth of it in our

story as best I could. But there's no way to define that kind of grief. I'm sure it's different

for so many people. And in that moment, all I had was my imagination, but also this relationship

that was right in front of me with this little boy. And that's what came out of that moment.

You hadn't yet become a mother, but you did get pregnant, I think, like a week before

Hamlet opened. Do I have that right? A week after I wrapped filming.

Something was cooked. Were you trying or was that really a surprise that seemed so

like the timing of it just seems amazing. I wanted to become a mother for a long time.

And schedules, life, being in different places, work, you know, it was hard.

And that was kind of like a beautiful thing, but also an intense thing to kind of feel that in

my own personal life, beside this mother that I was living inside in Agnes. The thing I've

realized becoming a mother is it humbles you down to your knees and any idea you think of yourself

in being a mother or becoming a mother or in birth or any of that. I mean, good luck because

it's never like that. It always brings you on a way more kind of wild journey.

I'm wondering if portraying the mother of Hamlet on the wife of William Shakespeare

spoke to you because you had just experienced the grief that a mother has when her 11-year-old son

dies and now you are about to become a mother. So were you spooked by the thought a son can die,

a child can die? I wasn't spooked. Not because I didn't think about it, but I don't know,

what are you going to do? You know, like lock yourself up and not kind of, you know, my work,

I'm not scared to touch the shadowy bits. I like them. They like help me. I think my experience

when I don't touch them is that they show up in a more destructive kind of bigger way. So actually

the thing that this story offered me that brought me into this next chapter of my life as a mother

was tenderness, you know, and that was a word and a feeling that I think I didn't know what I was

looking for and a mother's tenderness, it's ferocious, you know, to birth is no joke, to be born is

no joke and the minute something's born into the world, you're always in the precipice of life

and death. That's our path, you know, we have, we all know we're going to head towards that destination,

I guess. And I wanted to be a mother so much that that overrode the thought of being afraid of

us. The director, Chloe Zhao, sent the cast to a coach who uses dream analysis as a tool for insights

into who you are and who your character is. Did you find that helpful? Yeah, I actually

introduced Chloe to this woman that we worked with and I've used it as a way to create for a few

years now. I find it so helpful. I'm not very good at linear thoughts or projections and I found

school very difficult because it was too linear and formulaic and I couldn't learn like that and

you know, with characters and work, it's the same. I don't want to project an idea onto the

women that I play until I've lived beside them and then in them and I find dreams really curious

things and I, you know, when you open a book or you open the script and the world of that script

begins to kind of reflect itself around you, your unconscious does stir the waters towards that

world and I find it a very interesting and useful tool to abstractly enter into an essence of

being rather than projecting an idea on top of them and I create so much from this way of working,

I write, I collect pictures, I'm like a magpie, you know, music, I paint, it spills out of me

when I start working like that so I find it so useful. Would you be willing to share an example

of a dream that you found useful in making hamnet or another film that you made?

I remember when I was filming hamlets, I had a dream, I think it was leading up to the death scene

and we were in, I'm going to get, you know, I'll just give you, I can't remember it totally but,

you know, and I just to say like dreams are the language of metaphors as well so,

anyway, this dream I remember being in an ocean and I knew that there was a little girl stuck

under a rock at the bottom of the ocean and I knew I had to try and get her out and I was kept

trying to swim down to this place and as I was swimming this huge stingray came and started to like

basically the whole ocean became the belly of a stingray and he was kind of devouring that world

and I remember when we got into, into shoot that scene I definitely put that stingray somewhere

in that room on that day. Do you see the stingray as being a metaphor for death kind of taking

over, consuming everything grief? I guess so, I don't know, I mean it could be many different things

for many people and I try not analyze it, I try and just let it be kind of free thinking, you know,

a free thought that can, sometimes I have dreams, you know, like I had a dream three years ago

and I read a script recently and that dream came like straight to the front of my mind and I was like

oh this script is this dream and actually this is like something that I know I need to like

get very curious about this dream, like what happens if I return to this dream and try and work

once a week for six months, like will something get unraveled? Just as an exercise, not for like any

anything woo woo, it's just curious isn't it? And it's also just to say it's not a new thing,

like the surrealists were using it, Dali was using it, I'm pretty sure David Lynch used his dreams

in his films as Fellini, there's this extraordinary Fellini book of all of his dreams and he's created,

it's this most beautiful book where all the characters that he found in his dreams are all painted

in this book and you can see them in like eight and a half and Lestrada, so it's not a new tool,

it's just something to get curious about. In addition to starring in Hamnet, you star

in a new film called The Bride, which is Maggie Gyllenhaal's take on The Bride of Frankenstein,

like what if The Bride of Frankenstein was a feminist who spoke out, you know, about misogyny

and corruption, but she's also totally wild and out of control, really nasty. So it must have been,

it must have been such a kind of shock from going to making The Bride to making Hamnet,

because I think even though The Bride's opening later than Hamnet did, I think you made The Bride

first. I made The Bride first, yeah. Oh, and also, you know, in The Bride of Frankenstein,

you're reanimated, like you've died and you're brought back to life, like Frankenstein,

whereas, you know, in Hamnet, that's all about a dead son staying dead, living in spirit.

Well, kind of, living in spirit. Yes. Like Shakespeare reincarnates his son through the

vessel of a story, which is what happens at that end, you know, is when she reaches out,

she can touch the thing that she thought she'd lost because her husband has created the greatest

magic trick of her life. When her son dies, it's so ginormous that she can't find him,

until that moment when the vessel of a story can help you, yeah, touch the things that you

can't hold by yourself. We need to take another break, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just

joining us, my guest is Jesse Buckley, and she stars in Hamnet for what she won a Golden Globe

and is nominated for an Oscar. We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.

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Hi, this is Molly CV Nusper, digital producer at Fresh Air. And this is Terry Gross, host of the show.

One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter. And I'm a newsletter fan. I read it every Saturday

after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week shows, staff recommendations, and Molly picks

timely highlights from the archive. It's a fun read. It's also the only place where we tell you what's

coming up next week and exclusive. So subscribe at WHYY.org slash Fresh Air and look for an

email from Molly every Saturday morning. So let's talk a little bit about music. You studied harp

and I think another instrument when you were young. Yeah, piano clarinet. I was never very good.

And I dabbled in the saxophone for a second too. But you didn't study singing but became known

for your singing early in your career. You've been in several musicals, including cabaret and

sometimes a little night music. Two shows with like fantastic scores. So how did singing become your

thing? Well, I grew up around a lot of music. My mom is a harpist and a singer and my dad has always

been passionate about music. So it was always something in our house and always something that was

encouraged. And I think early on I have very strong memories of seeing and hearing my mom sing

in church. And this quite intense mercurial conversation that would happen between her,

the story, and the people that would listen to her. And at the end of it, something had been

like cracked between them and these strangers would come up with tears in their eyes. And I guess I

saw the power of storytelling through my mom singing at a very young age. And that was definitely

something that made me think I want to do that. You played the male lead Tony in West Side Story

in a school production in your conference school, right? Yeah. What was it like for you to play

a male role in high school? I mean, I loved doing those productions in school. And it was an

all-girls conference school. And it was brilliant. I mean, the thing that deciphered the girls from

men or the women from the men in the productions was the men wore French plots and baked

red French plots, you know, like to keep their hair down. And big, huge red boxy suits were with a

tie. But it was brilliant. And I remember doing, when I did those shows, like even then

it meant so much. You know, I would want to go to the core of it. And if I felt I didn't

do it justice, I would kick myself. And the teachers would be like, you're fine, don't worry.

But it was kind of, it was the thing I looked forward to the most. And it was great fun.

You got your start as somebody who was known outside of high school. When you were contestant on

the British TV singing competition, I'd do anything. And the goal was that theater producer Cameron

Macintosh and songwriter Andrew Lloyd Webber were going to stage a production of the musical Oliver

and the winner of the contest was going to be the female lead Nancy. And so I want to play

the first song that you did on the competition. And this is a cover of the Icon Tina Turner

recording of River D. Oh my God. Okay, here we go. Terry.

I heard you laughing throughout all of that. What were you experiencing as you heard that?

I haven't heard that for a long time. So it's definitely a trip down memory lane.

You know, I look back at that time. And I mean, firstly, I thought it would take

a hundred years to peak behind the curtain and be part of an industry that I was so

desperate to be part of. You know, I loved it. That's what I wanted to do. And all of a sudden,

at 17, I was there. And I was standing in front of Cameron Macintosh and Andrew Lloyd Webber.

And I was getting to perform and sing. And I was so raw and ignorant and innocent, but full of

passion. And there was a lot of like joy in us. But also, I think about that young woman. And I

think, God, you're so brave. And just that compulsion and passion to be part of

theater was so huge in me back then. And I don't know if I'd be as courageous now to go and do

something, something like that. But when I hear that, I'm like, go grow. That's what I think.

One of the people on the panel of judges who were also coaches thought you were very

raw, like you said, and wasn't confident that you would necessarily get any better. How did you

take that criticism? Andrew Lloyd Webber and Macintosh liked you. Yeah. Well, there was parts of

the criticism, which I think was true. I was raw. I hadn't trained. I had a lot to learn

and to grow in. I was only 17. But still, criticism can be crushing. But I think there was parts

of their criticism, which I thought I think was destructive and unfair when it became about like

my awkwardness or, you know, they would say I was masculine and sent me to kind of a femininity

school. And I actually went to the school. They sent me to like go to Chicago to put heels on

an leotard and how to walk in high heels, which was pretty humiliating, to be honest. And I'm

sad about that because I think, you know, I was discovering myself as a young woman in the world.

And it wasn't fully formed. And I've always felt I'm not, I don't think any woman is. We're not

just like the same. I was different. You know, I was wild. I had a lot of feeling inside me. I

could hardly keep my hands beside myself. You know, I had a lot of expression in me. And I think

to kind of criticize a body of a young woman at that time and to make her feel conscious of that

was a lazy and I think boring. And as I've grown up, I, that's, you know, I think women are not,

they were not just to be accepted into the world in one shape. I want all the shapes. I want all

the stories. I want all the feelings. I want autonomy of ourselves to be as vibrant and, and

full as it possibly can. So yeah, that was, that was hard that bit.

So your coach was Andrew Lloyd Weber on the show. What did you learn from him? And was it helpful?

I mean, he's been a very quiet, but extraordinary support throughout, you know. And I think him and

Cameron McIntosh and Barry Humphreys really recognized a role flame that was to be nurtured.

And Cameron McIntosh actually was the person who really introduced me to Shakespeare. After I

finished, I do anything. He called me and he very generously offered to pay for me to go and do

a four week Shakespeare course at Radha, which is kind of, that's the royal academy of

dramatic art in London. And I'd studied Shakespeare at school, but I, you know, I was kind of intimidated

by us. And I guess that gesture changed my life because when I went and did that course,

it was the first time I recognized myself as an actress and recognized that I could do what

I felt I needed music for in, in just a word, because Shakespeare's words are bottomless,

you know, there's no end point to a word in a Shakespeare play. And I think up until that moment,

I thought that music was a vessel that could hold all my feelings until I'd met a Shakespeare

in that course. And it was significant. So both of them have been very, very

essential to me discovering myself as an actress and what I want to say and what I want to be

and what I want to put out into the world. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jesse Buckley,

and she's nominated for an Oscar for her starring role in the film Hamnet, and she already

won a Golden Globe for her performance in that film. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air.

There's one more song I want to play. And this is from your starring role in Cabaret in a West End

production in England. And so you're playing the role that Liza Manelli played in the movie.

And it's a kind of iconic role and singing maybe this time is a really iconic performance.

So I want to play your version of it. And which you seem to like rethink the song a little bit,

and you build like Liza builds. But the end kind of like tones down and becomes more reflective

in a way that I don't remember Liza doing it in the film. So let's hear the ending of the song.

It's got to happen.

Happen some time.

Maybe this time.

Maybe this time.

I'm hearing someone so much more in control of her voice than when you were a teenager

and were on the singing competition. What are you here?

Yeah, somebody who's grown, and I think by the time I'd come to Cabaret, I had gotten to know

myself more and lived more and worked more and was in command of my instrument and storytelling

better than when I was younger. Why wouldn't you be? Why wouldn't I exactly? I'm only human.

And actually, but even in that, Cabaret was really, it was such a trip. That character is a real

trip. You get on that train at the beginning of the night and you do not get offered until the end.

And what I hear in that song and what you're talking about in that ending, I hear somebody

trying to find hope, trying to be held. Every sentence starts with maybe this time, maybe this time,

maybe something's going to happen to me. And I think what I discovered in playing this part

and especially in that song and in the end is like, what if she doesn't fully believe it?

That hope is going to actually arrive. What if she hasn't, she's holding on for hope as much as

she can until that end point and just a tiny fraction of a thought that actually maybe it's not

going to work out. And I guess, don't we all tread in that precipice? In life, count me in.

Just one step in front of the other, but like, God, I hope it won't fall between the cracks.

Did acting bring out parts of your personality that you didn't know you had or maybe didn't know how

to express or feelings you were too embarrassed to admit to or too inhibited to fully express?

1,000%. I mean, it's essential to me in that way. What did you learn about yourself from acting?

I learned something about myself through the women that I play in every job that I do,

because they contain parts of me in an alternate state and space that maybe, you know, I'd have to

go to therapy 10 hours a day, seven days a week if I was trying to actually incubate the shadowy

bits as I call them, but through these incredible women that I've been looking off to play,

I get to explore that and experience that. And a lot of why I choose the roles that I do is

is to kind of meet those shadowy bits, like Marieke and women talking, for example, is she's

tough. She's hard. She's like an armadillo. And she was the one that I really etched me, you know.

I remember when I got that script, I was like, 12 women talking in an attic. How the, what's that?

What is that? But she was, you know, the thing that kept itching away at me because

I know that woman. And she's not easy. That's what I look for is like the crunchy bit, the thing that's

disobedient. That's too much. That's, and whether that's, you know, even to have a protagonist

as a mother, to bring the mother to the forefront and encompass all of what it is to be a mother.

Whether that's in last daughter or wild rose or hamnet, like, let's give the full landscape

of what it is to be a woman. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jesse Buckley. And she's

nominated for an Oscar for her starring role in the film Hamnet. And she already won a golden

globe for her performance in that film. We'll be right back. This is fresh air.

When you are making the bride, your forthcoming film, inspired by the bride of Frankenstein,

written and directed by Maggie Gyllenhaal, you were pregnant and had to hide your pregnancy

on screen. So how did you do it? Well, I wasn't pregnant for the main

shooting sequence. But when we came back to do a reshoot for something, I was eight months pregnant.

So they just had to do it from the boobs up to her. It's like just the face. The face was my only

tool to work from. But I mean, I really loved working when I was pregnant. I thought it was pretty

wild experience, especially because I was playing Mary Shelley. And I was talking about monstrosity.

And here I was with two heartbeats inside me. And I, you know, becoming a mom and being pregnant

did something. I think for me, my experience of it, it's so real that it really like focuses you

to be, I'm allergic to fake. Or to disconnection. I think since my daughter is common, I know what

that connection is and the real feeling of being in a relationship with somebody. I kind of soft

chat is, I can't stomach it anymore or talking around a thing. And as an actress, very exciting to

recognize that in yourself and really take ownership of yourself. I remember in filming that

I was really close to giving birth and being like, I have this amount of energy. I will give you

everything I got. But I know there'll be a time when I cannot give you anymore. And that's

going to be the end of the day. And actually that really focuses you on set. And I think maybe when

you're younger, you're so in, in awe and reverence that you've been invited into this world,

which is part of where you are at that moment. But it's also good to put in some boundaries

and focus your work. And I think I'm excited to go back and work on this other side of becoming

a mother in so many ways, because I've shed 10 layers of skin by loving more and experiencing

life in such a new way with my daughter. I'm also scared to work again because, you know,

it's hard to be a mother and to work. That's like a constant talk. Because I love what I do and I

I'm passionate and I want to continue to grow and learn and and fill those spaces that are yet to be filled.

And also be a mother. And I think every mother can recognize that talk.

Do you think if you took a break, a long one, do you have a fear that you'd be forgotten when you're

ready to come back? No, I don't feel afraid of that. You're just torn between what you should do.

You know, like just become a full-time mother for a while or keep acting. I don't think I have to

choose. You know, I really don't. I think I'm glad to hear that. It just sounded to me like you

thought you needed to. No, I just think it's an honest feeling. You know, I woke up this morning. I

haven't seen my daughter in four days and it hurts. You know, I miss her, but I also

I'm inspired to be around people that make me dream and imagine and I need to do what I do. And I

think I will be a better mother to continue to be passionate about something in my life and show my

daughter that you don't have to lose any part of yourselves. Of course, there is, of course,

it's hard, but it's also a beautiful thing to miss something. Like I miss, I haven't filmed for

nearly a year and I cannot waste. Like I'm hungry to create again. And my daughter will come with me,

you know. She's seven months, so at the moment she can travel with us. And it's a beautiful life.

And she meets all these amazing people and I have a feeling that she loves life. And that's a great

thing to see in a child. And I hope that's something that I've imparted to her and her,

the short time that she's been on this earth is that, you know, life is, life is beautiful and

great and complex and alive and there's no part of you that needs to be less in your life.

You might have to work it out, but it's like, it's worth it.

Well, that's a nice note to end on. So congratulations again on your Oscar nomination and your

Golden Globe win for Hamnet. And thank you so much for coming on our show.

Thanks for having me. It's a privilege.

Jesse Buckley is nominated for an Oscar for her starring role on Hamnet. It's playing in

select theaters and is available for streaming. Her next film, The Bride, opens Friday.

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