Joan Lunden: Reinvention, Identity, & Life Beyond the Script | EP 736

coming up next on passion strike. I think people often hear things that are opportunities and they

immediately think, oh, wow, now, that would be great for someone. Why not for you? And I don't

think that people just let ideas and opportunities like pass them by like just float bread by them

because they don't take that moment to consider maybe I can do that. You don't have to see as one

of the quotes in my book is you don't have to see the whole staircase. You just have to take the

first step. Welcome to passion struck. I'm your host John Miles. This is the show where we explore

the art of human flourishing and what it truly means to live like it matters. Each week I sit down

with change makers, creators, scientists, and everyday heroes to decode the human experience

and uncover the tools that help us lead with meaning, heal what hurts and pursue the fullest

expression of who we're capable of becoming. Whether you're designing your future,

developing as a leader or seeking deeper alignment in your life, this show is your invitation to

grow with purpose and act with intention because the secret to a life of deep purpose, connection,

and impact is choosing to live like you matter.

Hey friends and welcome back to episode 736 of passion struck. Before we dive in I want to take

a moment to thank you. Over the past two weeks passion struck was recognized by interview valet

is one of the top podcasts for conversations and also one of the best podcasts for business and

mindset. That recognition is because of you, your support, your sharing, and the community we're

building together. Over the past month we've been exploring what it means to matter. Why it's

essential, how it's formed, and what happens when that feeling is missing. But life doesn't stay

fixed, roles change, identity shift, and at some point every one of us faces the same question,

who am I now? This episode marks the beginning of a new series that I'm calling life beyond the

script. A series about what happens when the version of life you've been living, the role,

the identity, the path no longer fits and you're asked to write something new because a fulfilling

life isn't built once. It's rewritten often in moments you didn't choose. My guest today is Joan

journalist author and former co-host of Good Morning America. We're discussing her new memoir

which launches today. Joan, life beyond the script, a deeply personal reflection on the transitions

that shaped her life from her decades-long career and broadcast journalism to caregiving advocacy

and reinvention. In this conversation what stood out most is this. Reinvention isn't a single

decision. It's a series of moments where you choose to step forward before you feel ready.

From stepping into a role, she initially doubted she could hold to leaving behind an identity that

defined her for decades, to advocating for caregivers and redefining purpose later in life.

Joan's story reflects something we all encounter, the need to evolve. And today we're going to

discuss how confidence is built through action, why caregiving becomes one of the most defining

roles later in life and how to stay open to change even when it disrupts your identity.

Before we begin the conversation, a quick ask. If this episode resonates with you,

share it with someone who may need to hear it. You can also watch the full conversation on YouTube,

and if you haven't yet, leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify would mean

a great deal. It helps more people find these conversations. Now, onto our conversation with Joan

London. Thank you for choosing Passionstruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your

journey to creating a life that matters. Now, let that journey begin.

I am absolutely honored and thrilled today to welcome Joan London to Passionstruck. Joan,

it is such an honor to have you here today. It's my delight to be here. I love the idea in this show.

To me, it's surreal, because I remember in the late 70s, early 80s as a kid growing up,

seeing you on my TV. So it's a full circle moment to have this opportunity to interview you,

and I'm even throwing in some questions that my mom and my aunt had, who I'll ask later on

in the conversation. I was growing up on the show. I was 27 when I started Good Morning America.

I have all these young kids all the time saying, I grew up with you. I said, yeah,

well, I grew up also on the show. Well, before millions of people welcomed you into their homes

every morning, who did you believe you needed to be in order to feel like you mattered?

Obviously, a trusted voice, a trusted journalist, but you also had to be for that time of morning

likable, perky, and there's that fine line. At seven o'clock in the morning, you don't invite

your best friend over. The kids aren't dressed. You have a breath to your teeth. It's a

unusual time of day. It's not like being on a prime time show. And we always had that in mind. We

understood that. But you're real. People used to always say that either Charlie Gibson or even

today, my husband, what's you really like? But you are yourself on a show like that. You have to

be. You're there in real time and you're reacting. It's not a scripted show. And I think that the

dilemma for a woman, particularly back then when I first went to GMA, like in 1977, I first started

as a correspondent became the host 1980. We weren't supposed to be independent, strong women

necessarily. That was still at a time. I remember I had to ask my agent to go to the network. I just

had my first baby and I said, ask him if I can bring my baby with me because I'm breastfeeding. He said,

you couldn't even say breastfeeding on television, which was true, which is almost hard to believe. But I

made him go have that conversation and damn if they didn't say yes. And then there is that worrisome,

are my colleagues going to take me seriously? If I do this, how can I be a mommy and a working

independent journalist that people are going to expect that I'm there and I'm prepared and I'm

ready and I'm going to ask the questions that needed to be asked. It was just like this tightrope

that you had to walk and we didn't have any of the lean in yet. I wouldn't even have thought to

try to go into that corner meeting with the executives and the producers after the show and they were

doing that. How did we do today? What do we want to do tomorrow? So you didn't have a chance to

to your own barn. You didn't really have an opportunity to show up with ideas because frankly,

I didn't really have bullets for whatever to walk into that meeting. And it took many years,

but it's interesting, John. I don't remember how long it was after I started the show, but it wasn't

too long. I tried to start the show that Barbara Walters was on one day and she was on to talk about

whatever primetime specials interviewing some celebrity. And I don't remember what her show was

that I just remembered during the commercial break. She said, computer. And she said, I may give you

some advice. Do not try to fight for equality. That time has not come. Not just here at the show.

That time has not come socially in our country. And if you do it and they're women are trying to

go you into doing it, don't do it because if you do, you will end up where your predecessors ended

up, which is out the door. And in order to get that job, I had to go be interviewed by David Hartman's

agent. Now, I don't know if listeners would realize how ludicrous that is. You don't usually have

to go get interviewed by the other talents agent to get the job. And he said, I need to know,

are you willing to be second banana? Like you're going to be Ed McMahon to Johnny Carson

for people who are old enough to have that analogy. And I was like, yeah, absolutely. I understand

what the job is, but I know it's one of the best jobs in the world. And I'm coming to with

eyes open. And as time goes on, but there's an opportunity to grow my role a little, then so be it.

I will say that his first question was the startling question. The first question literally

when I sat down in the chair, Hrossman, it was, what I changed my hair color. I was like,

what? I said, can I just ask you, why would you ask that? And he said, well, you look young.

I was young. I was like 29, just almost 30 30. And he said, we don't want David,

we don't want you to make David look older. That blonde hair might make you look young.

And I said, well, look, if the networking executives thought that somehow my hair color didn't

play well on television, I'd have the conversation with them. It just seems a little strange to me.

And like, he let it go and go on to the second banana discussion.

That was the time. That was what life was like for women in general back when the late 70s.

I don't even know if women could get credit cards in their own name at that point.

And interestingly, when I got that call, John, I was so working at Eyewitness News in New

York City as a reporter and weekend anchor. And I got the call from my agent and I was like,

getting ready on my typewriter. That's a dead giveaway.

My agent called and said, I just got a call from ABC. They're offering you the job as co-hosts

in Good Morning America. And I was like, oh my God, that's great. I'll call you up to the show.

I have like 20 minutes to get ready. 20 minutes later, the phone rang again. I thought it was him

calling back. And it was my gynecologist saying, congratulations. You're pregnant with your first

child. It was like, wonderful. Like a light dilemma. What are you going to do with this one, London?

And I couldn't hold it. That probably would have been the expected thing. Oh man, fan timing.

But it just to be very honest, never even occurred to me to do that. It just, okay,

how am I going to figure this out? I can't say no. And I'm obviously going to end this baby.

And how am I going to figure out how to do it? And you just have to come up with a plan.

John, has I been studying your life and preparing for this interview? And of course,

reading your brand new autobiography, John, life beyond the script. One of the things

that really hit me is you have these life sayings that seems to have guided your whole career.

The moment before you got this role on Good Morning America, I understand

laryngeitis of some other host might have prompted a decision that you had to make to get out of bed

that actually led down the path for you actually getting the opportunity. And I was hoping

not to knock him that back. I think I used the analogy in the book of Shirley McLean,

who was, I forget the Broadway show, she was in that, and she was like an understudy.

And, but she was ready to walk in and start and roll. She knew it by heart. And the star

broke her leg and boom, she walked in that night. And there was a big television producer in the audience.

She became a movie star. It's called Being Ready in the Wings and Being Open to Opportunity.

These are the things you got. You got to be open to opportunity. And I got to call one morning,

I don't know, it was like maybe six, 30s or so in the morning. And when the phone rang,

I looked at my clock like I'm not due in today to the newsroom until eight o'clock.

But it was the control room calling me from Good Morning America. David Hartman called in sick.

And the co-host at the time was Sandy Hill. And she could come in thinking she could pull it off.

And she just had such bad learning giders that the producer said, this is just not going to work.

Call to the London show, this right across the street. And I did, I lived like right down the block.

And he said, I need you to come in today. And I said to do what on the show, to do the whole show.

Okay. And like I threw on clothes and ran up the block and walked in. And they like got me ready

really quickly as much as they could. And I went on and hosted the wool show. And by saying yes to that

opportunity, that gave, that was the first time those network producers had an opportunity to see

as a potential post. And that I had walked in and pretty seamlessly pulled off the whole

anchoring the whole show that day. And that catapulted my career.

So I have this motto. I'm sure you know it by now, but you've read my book.

Whenever anyone asks you to do something, just say yes. And then go figure out how to do it.

I have people all the time say to me, oh my God, you've just done so many things in your life.

It's just unbelievable, especially with all my behind closed doors shows jumping out of planes and

flying in F-16s and F-18s, the landing on aircraft carriers. And do they think I was completely

like not nervous when I was driving out of my driveway with yet another uniform act in my suitcase

going till I have to go through the training to do this, to be allowed to do something like this.

Now as nervous again, it's because I just have continually

sanded, yes, that has afforded me this truly unbelievable life. The hardest part of doing a legacy

memoir in my case was hiring a boy who's down to 100,000 words. It was like a task.

I hear you. Well, I wanted to give the listeners just a little bit more

feel for what was going on when you entered the studio that day when you got out of bed and ran

down there because as I understand it, you've had 90 seconds, maybe two minutes at the most

after they put the makeup and stuff on you and you have to interview someone off a Broadway.

And so you were given this whole outline to interview this famous person that you literally had

60 seconds to prepare for. And the person you're interviewing I understood was put off because

here this person comes in off the street to interview them. Yes, so I would probably maybe

you could take us there because I think sometimes people don't. They see the aftermath,

but they don't see the moments that you have to walk into. And that's to me what defines our lives.

I don't think I expected her reaction. No, I definitely did not anticipate it, but I understand it.

She knew that date of urban started on stage in Broadway shows. That's how we started

his career in like Ellodali, the waiter that came in, whatever. And she had anticipated this

wonderful interview as someone who really understood the stage in Broadway. And she was doing a

show called Runaways with all these kids and the kids were all there and they were all around her.

And she's waiting for Danny to like, I walk over and sit down across from her. And I think she

is a little dumbfounded. And I do the intro to camera and I give her the first question. And she

really wasn't very nice to me. She was pretty icy. And I get it, but I'll admit I didn't really

anticipate that in the aftermath, I understand it. But it was just one more little thing on that

morning that throw me something else to make it just a little bit harder to do this,

to walk in and do it to her show by myself that I've never done before. I've done little pieces

on the show, but I hadn't done anything like that. You just sometimes act a rise to the occasion.

I can't even tell you honestly that going into that morning, I was thinking, oh, here's my chance.

This is, I'm going to show what I can do. I didn't have time to think that.

I just, and a good thing is I didn't really have enough time to get to nervous. That's probably

the good thing. It was like, as soon as I walked in the door, they're saying, okay, you're going to

start with this interview, then this interview. And I'm like, listening, because I wasn't prepared

for any of those interviews. And I'm like, taking it all in a little sponge, you're just saying,

okay, I got it, I got it, I got it. But it was actually good because you didn't have too much of

an opportunity to get nervous. But that was like really, like you're picking at an example of my life

from the very early stage, like when I was young, all the way through saying, you want this opportunity?

Sure. Yeah. Let's try that on. And then going and doing it in every time I did one of those,

it gives you self confidence. It grows your self confidence and your own self image, your own

self identity. And you start thinking of yourself as someone who can accomplish that.

Or the day before you would have said, I don't know if I could do that. And so those are really

important. And those are all the things that I really wanted to convey. I tell my story, but

I'm sure you saw that in it, even the usage of quotes at the beginning of each chapter,

I'm a person who really loves quotes. When I see them and they impact me, I save them. I've got

my list in quotes. So when I do a book like this, I can call through that list. And it was so

important to me to find the right quote that would set the scene that would make you read this quote

and say, oh, what's coming in this chapter? That's all part of building the anticipation and then

letting those moments unfold and letting them say, oh, God, that's how she did that.

I find this funny because as I told you before we got on the interview, I just turned in my

manuscript and I had gone through painstakingly and attributed quotes at the beginning of every

single chapter to do exactly what you're suggesting to set the tone through someone. People would

recognize, in some case, there's more famous than others, but my editor, the first thing she did

is she said, I hate quotes at the top of chapters. So the first thing you need to do is remove all of them.

Something they, at one point, they came to me. Now, I've done it in every single book and I don't

know if you know, this is my 11th book. And there was no way I was going to do it in this book,

but it's gotten more difficult in the publishing industry and you really have to be able to,

my editor just drilled down and made me really painstakingly identify where a quote came from.

And I would say it came from somewhere and they would come back and say, actually, no,

that person got it from somewhere else. And like the research we had to do into every one of these

quotes in, I don't know, 40 chapters as 40 quotes took so much time and effort on our part,

but I didn't care. They were too important to me. So I'm sorry, you can't use them because

the usage of the quote at the top of the chapter, the title, and I love chapter titles.

To me, chapter titles are, I spend forever on coming up with the right chapter. I love my last

chapter title, surfacing with intention, which is like something so important and what we're talking

about today. Before we continue, I want to pause for a moment. One of the ideas at the center of

this series is this, you don't move through life once. You move through it in chapters. And most

people rarely take the time to reflect on where they are or who they're becoming next. That's why

alongside this series, I'm building something deeper on the ignitedlife.net. I'm publishing

companion reflections and articles for each episode designed to help you examine your own life.

If you want to go deeper into this work, you can visit the ignitedlife.net. And I also want to

thank our sponsors. Their support makes the show possible. And if you've been getting value from

PassionStruck, supporting the brands and support us, helps keep these conversations going.

You're listening to PassionStruck on the PassionStruck Network. Now let's return to the

conversation with Joan London. I love it because this whole podcast is about why we need to be

intentional with the choices that we make in our life. I love what you brought up earlier about

saying yes to opportunities. And I'll just share a little bit about my life. I was given this

opportunity to join a Lowe's Home Improvement as a senior executive, but the task I was being given

was to clean up the worst hacking incident that had ever happened in retail. And as I went into

this, people have asked me after the fact, how did you even think you could do the job? And when

I was thinking about it, I'm like, nothing like this has ever been done before. No one has ever

solved this. So it's not like anyone has a resume to solve it. So I just thought I could figure it

out. And then when they asked me to build 200,000 square foot data center, I'd never build anything

like that. But if I figured I could get the right people around me who had, and I hired the right

engineering firm, then I could get it done. And I think people let themselves think themselves out

of opportunities before they even hit the starting line. Is that what you have found in your own

experience? One hundred percent. And I resonated this thought, I think, probably in a number of

the books I've written. And I keep resonating again and again because it needs to be, is that I think

people often hear things that are opportunities. And they immediately think, oh, about now,

that would be great for someone. Why not for you? And I don't think that people just let

ideas and opportunities like pass them by, like just float right by them because they don't take

that moment to consider, maybe I can do that. And it's, you don't have to see, as one of the

quotes in my book is you don't have to see the whole staircase. You just have to take the first step.

And as you start down, when I was in, in the very beginning, 23 years old KCRA TV and affiliate

in Sacramento, California, my hometown, before I ever got to national. And they brought,

and I had just gone in because someone said, you ought to consider this. There were no women

on news back then. There was Barton Walpers as almost like it. And so I called and I got this

appointed to go in and I asked them all these questions about what the possibilities were.

And after five minutes, he said, well, clearly, you know how to write an interview. You haven't

the look. You have that effect. Let me take you down and audition you. It was like, okay,

keep putting on this new set that I saw every night on TV. And he auditioned me and he said,

I think you'd have something, but I don't have a job. He just walked in here out of the blue.

But we're going to start this early news show and I'll keep you in mind. But then weatherman

at the station was back behind the set, saw the audition and followed me out into the parking lot.

Instead of few stations around the country are hiring weather girls.

I'd like to make you Sacramento's first weather girl. And that sounded absolutely totally

uninteresting to me. But thank God I was a smart little whipper snapper who knew an opportunity

when I heard it. So I said, okay, he said, okay, we hear Monday morning at 5 a.m.

It's 5 a.m. Because he went on the air and did all this morning drive time weather on the radio.

It was very important to the Sacramento agricultural valley, all these farmers.

And I guess that was the start of my early morning career right out of the box.

But then a few months later they called me, the news record called me and I said,

remember when I told you we were going to start an early show?

Well, we're going to do something that a lot of that are just a few stations around the country

are doing. They're having consumer reports. And this has never been done before.

Do you think it could come up with some consumer reports for us?

I said, okay. So I lived in Sacramento. That's a capital of California.

And I got in my car and I drove to the department of consumer affairs and I found

their public relations office and said, if I was going to go on television as a consumer reporter,

could you give me some news to report? And they said, oh my God, we're always having recalls of

products and things we were always trying to get our information on. I got my car to

whatever culture and said, could you give me any information like on a regular basis about food

prices or maybe tainted food or things like that? And by the end of the day I went back into the

news director and said, I could to the consumer report every night. Mind you, I was convincing myself

of that just as much as I was convincing that news director. And I was making it out, but I was

figuring it out kind of like you figured out how to solve that back thing. There was no precedent,

there was no other consumer reports on television that I could look at. And so I just put it together

and figured out what is the consumer want to hear? What is the viewer want to hear out there?

And started writing up my reports and okay, I'll tell you a funny one. And I think it's

it's in the book. I'm pretty sure it's in the book. They used something in television called

a blue screen. Are you sitting in front of a blue screen or a weatherman stands in front of a

blue background or green background? And green need a watch too. And the camera only sees everything

but the blue so that they see your image. And then they roll a piece of tape in the back,

then it was filmed, videotape and been invented at that point. And they run a piece of film of

a rainy day. So you see this weatherman seemingly standing outside in the rain.

So they set me out with a camera person and said you're going to do all these agricultural

reports. Take the camera person with you and they'll shoot footage of tomatoes and lettuce and

meat and milk and blah, blah, blah. So we did all this footage. And so now my first night coin

on talking about food prices. And I'm in front of a blue screen and they're running the footage

that's now going to put together. And I didn't realize it but back in those days it was a very big

thing to wear blue eyeshadow. Okay, it was very trendy. So no judgment. And every time and there was

no teleprompter. So you went by the script in front of you on the desk. And every time I would look

down at the script, you would see tomatoes or lettuce or meat like through my eyes.

And needless to say, all of the other reporters up in the newsroom were wondered how in the world

this girl just got came walked in here off the street and got this job. They didn't exactly welcome

me with open arms. And they thought it was the funniest thing in the world and didn't tell me

for weeks because they just wanted it to keep happening.

Throughout the book and you've been giving us some great examples, you described moments where

being unflappable became part of the job. But I wanted to ask this in a different way. What do you

think being unflappable cost you internally? There are plenty of times I could think of a million

different kind of things that you needed to remain unflappable even though people were writing

things about human tabloids. First of all, back then, we didn't have social media. They would write

letters. But they still write letters. I don't like the dress she wore are the big one for women.

And then she gained a little too much weight. That was the big one. You were supposed to be

then if you run TV. And by the way, I had three babies while doing Good Morning America. And they

would write things in the tabloids. And you can say, I don't read that, but that's not true. You do

see. And if you don't read it, a friend of yours reads it and tells you. And you get dressed

down every now and then by the boss who says, I don't like the interview you did yesterday. And

no matter what it is, like, you do have to just, there's a saying that's better to stay even

and get even. You couldn't get mad about it. You hadn't just take it as constructive criticism,

whether it was coming from a viewer, it was coming from your producer, and always remain

unflappable. And certainly live on television, no matter what happened you had to. And sometimes

there was a lot of chaos going on. We might hear in our earpiece. And you had to remain

at the level. You were never to let the audience know there was something going on. The next

satellite interview is off. We don't have it. We're going to get something else. We're going to

put something else in this place. Okay. So I won't go to that. You really have to just remain

cool and calm and collected. And I don't think most people ever necessarily think about that

while watching live news on television. And I know one of the things that I learned through reading

the book is that you were quietly rewriting the rules through the course of your career.

And one of the first starts of this is you would bring your daughter to work and it was framed

as activism at the time. But little things like that started, I think, to give you permission

to expand. But did you feel like that at the time? I know I was not a flag-weighting,

bravering feminist at all. I was like the mom, the new child that got this big job and I was just

putting one foot in front of the other, trying to figure out how I could do them both at the same time.

But I don't think ADC understood. I couldos to them for saying yes to me. Because back then,

it wasn't like today's world, there weren't all the contraptions of your breastfeeding. You really

ended up in the baby with you. And while they said yes and I gave them credit, I don't really think

that they totally understood what they were saying. Yes to your how it would impact the show or the

audience or America society. And the first day back, they played in this big news conference

after the show and we went upstairs for our dressing rooms and they put all these chairs out

and had nice little breakfast and they invited Paul the newspapers, New York Times and the Washington

Post and I'm in Newsweek and Ladies Home Journal. It was and it was a packed house. And we walked out,

David Hartman introduced me, welcomed me to the show. I said a few words, I opened up questions.

But right before I came downstairs, the PR people came and grabbed me and said, listen, whatever you

do not say anything about the fact that you have a baby upstairs, because these are critics,

these are television reporters. They're going to, they would chew you up and spit you out. They'll

never think that you could actually do your job. It's okay. No problem. I didn't play on

mentioning it. So now we are at the M and I open up to the questions and I'm supposed to have this

best kept secret. And first question, time out is in. We hear you are bringing your baby to work.

How did you get ABC to let you do that? Like your eyes dart to the back of the room where all these

executives are standing up in the PR people that just gave you your marching orders, but I had to answer.

You not answer. I answered this question. Second question, Newsweek magazine. This show travels the

world. How are you going to do that? Again, I had to answer. Well, actually ADC has contractually

given me permission to take the baby with me wherever I need to go for as long as I

arrest feeding her throughout the first year. Well, I said breastfeeding. And it clearly

became very obvious to everyone within the first five minutes of that press conference that

the breaking news story of today wasn't who what female was the new co-host of Good Morning America.

That was a little story. The breaking news that day was that a major media corporate

corporation had given a woman permission to bring a baby to work. It was in every paper. They

and by the way before the press conference was over that PR guy went up scooped my little seven

people baby out of the crib and came all of a sudden I saw him walking in with my little baby

Jamie in his arms and he said, I bring her to you. He walked right up the center aisle through all

the different news reporters, put her in my arms and every camera is flashing. And that was the

picture on the cover of everything. And I still don't know if ABC really clearly understood at that

point what the reaction was going to be by our audience, which was I think that I bonded with

the audience so much more quickly because they knew I was showing up, they knew I was prepared

for the interviews, but they also know I was dealing with dirty diapers and sped up. So there was like

a like an interlocutor there that just created and fun on our ratings soared. And I'm going to

tell you a little something that didn't make the book. And as soon as I only found this out six

months ago, I'd set my galley off to a couple of producers of GMA and the executive producer that

I might started. I just wanted them to back check everything. And he got back to me, he said,

I'm going to tell you something. He said, when you started really showing the head of entertainment

calling and said, you got to get John Lennon off the air. I said, why? He said, she's showing nobody

wants to see a prank and we walking down the street, let alone on television in the morning

when they get up. And he said, well, that's not really the reaction that we're getting from our

audience. Our audience is absolutely all of them are reacting favorably. And he said, I got

together with David Parkman and the vice president in charge at the time and we pow out and we decided

we just can't do this. It would go against what our audience would get upset. So they went against

him and the guy eventually acquiesced and dropped it. And they let me stay in the air until I don't

know, two weeks, three weeks before delivery. Out of act then, they didn't have all the cute little

maternity clothes that they have now. It was like tense. And I said, and he said, we opted not to

tell you. I said, oh my god, I'm so glad you did not tell me that back then because it would have,

I think it would have just thrown me for a loop by me. Yeah, it would have destroyed you.

You're out of here. And I'm so glad they didn't tell me. But and here I am 50 years later, John.

50 years later. And I find out that story.

Some believeable. Well, I think looking back, everything humanized you. And that's in it,

drew people in because they saw you, you weren't just a placard. You were a real person,

which wasn't what they were accustomed to seeing. So I think it made it appealing. And

what I think a lot of listeners might also not realize is during your time with David,

which lasted about a decade, if I have it right, if he had strict parameters in on how the show

would begin, how it would close, who got to interview, how much money he made. And I made,

yeah, I understand that there was almost like a 10x difference in pay at one point.

Yeah, and 10 times what I made. Yeah. But then new ownership came in and he played his cards

wrong. And Charlie then comes in. And from the get go, everything changed. But Charlie was a

primary reason for that. What did he do differently in his approach? Okay. So now your listeners

going to hear one other thing that I just found out at the 50th anniversary this past November.

Charlie flew in and Spencer flew in and we all went out to dinner and Charlie said,

I remember when I first came and I knew that I was like a huge cheerleader. I really thought

Charlie would be great. I thought he was the right. He was very smart, but he didn't wear it.

And he said, the day I came to move into the office, he said, the executive is called me in.

And they said, all right, you need to establish yourself immediately as the alpha male.

You got to make don't realize that. You got to make the audience realize that.

And he said, I looked at them and said, I think you're really wrong. That's what it's been for

the last 10 years. I don't think that today's audience. That was like 1987. And he said, I don't,

I can't buy into that. I don't think that's right. He said, and then I came to your office. Now,

this is the part that I knew. I never knew about that meeting where they told him to come in and

be the alpha male until this past November. So it's not in the book either. The book was already

put to bed at that point. And he said, and then I know this part. He walked into my office and he sat

down across from me. And he said, I want to make a deal with you. Let's do this show 5050.

Let's show America that a man and a woman can come together and do a show as equals.

And boy, I shot my man across the desk and said, I'll create that deal. I knew I liked him,

but I liked him even more. And that is how we did the show. And I think the audience felt that.

And what you usually have been dipping the ratings when one of those sneaves and they're bringing

somebody new on, we did not have a dip in the ratings. The ratings just continued to go up. And

they could stay that way for the next over a decade. For those of us who've not been behind

the scenes on a show like that, when it comes to a guest is coming on the show and it's a desirable

guest. What was the difference between when you're working with David and who got assignments on

stories versus how that changed with Charlie and was it a pretty bench gift?

Well, when I was with David, it was anybody, it was any kind of a political leader, world leader,

senator, major star in any industry. I knew I wouldn't get the interview.

I got the women's stories. I got DIY and do your own. I got cooking spots. I got all

Julia child spots. I got parenting and nutrition. And the doctor's daughter here who all

said, I'd be a doctor. I called any medical spot that I could possibly get my hands on. And he

let me have them unless they were really important. And that's just what life was like during those

years. And every now and then, when he would be a town, and I would be on with someone else,

it would, the producers would slip me like an important interview. And that's where they allow

me to take it. He prepared and shine so that they can have confidence in me. And quite honestly

over time, so like grew the confidence in myself. And by the time Charlie came, we took one of

our first trips overseas. And we got to the hotel. And back in those days, still, we,

Charlie and I never had a laptop. Today, anchors with laptops in front of them,

they're seeing people's comments in real time. We never had a laptop. We couldn't Google

anyone that we were about to interview. In fact, check something that didn't exist. We got packets

and packets of research that we had to read. And I got to my hotel and I saw, oh my god,

either interviewing the king and queen of Sweden. Like that, it was astounding to me because

that never would have happened before. And so it was really a huge kind of power shift.

It was like coming out from behind that barrier as a woman. And it worked. It worked for Good

Morning American and ABC. The audience loved it. And I see it on my social media every day.

My 99,000 BFS that I don't know but they're really nice. And I hear it all the time. If I post

anything remotely has to do with television or GMA, I have all these people that come in and say,

you and Charlie, that pair that we had in our home every morning, we could tell. And you told us

like it was. And back then, John, it was so different than today. Like today, they expect anchors

to give their opinion. And the audience doesn't really like that quite honestly. They don't want

opinion news like we just gave the news. And if I had an interview, if I was interviewing two people

with opposing views or moderating and debate, our goal was that at the end of that, you wouldn't

know what our opinion was. Which by the way was somewhat of a challenge. It wasn't always easy to do.

But you didn't chime in and say, oh, yeah, you're right. I mean, just didn't do that. And that's

of major difference. And I'm really glad that I was in that position for the 20 years that I was

and not in today's world. And I think that viewers out there from what I hear on social media

is that they yearn for those days. I always think from a podcast host, I listened to other

podcasts and I find that oftentimes the host isn't starting themselves so much into the commentary,

where I always felt my job as the interviewer is to serve my audience by interviewing the guest

in a way that brings them the most value. And I find so few people really do that anymore. It's

more they're trying to. Yes. Well, I want to talk about when GMA ended. And I'm going to build

into this a little bit because as I was thinking about this moment for you, this was such a colossal

part of your life and such a platform of your identity. And few people I think could have faced

is daunting a transition as you did. But I happened to interview one about six months ago. I'm not

sure if you ever interviewed Susan Killrain on a little bit of background. Susan was the first

F-14 pilot in the Navy. And then she became the second pilot. She became the second female

space shuttle pilot in the program. And after flying her two missions because she was on

the space shuttle journey where they had to come back early because they had an issue and then

they sent them back up. She made the decision because her husband is a retired vice admiral Navy

seal that they wanted to have a family and allow him to pursue her's career. So she had to give up

everything. And I just think about giving up everything as an astronaut or giving up everything

like you did. I just wanted to ask, for you, what do you think disappeared first when this happened?

Was it the routine? Was it this platform that you had behind you or was it your own sense of

mattering? It was my own sense of mattering. It's like the world just drops out from underneath

that you. I wasn't so sorry to say goodbye to the 330 witty cups from 20 years of that. But

you're at least you're very vulnerable. And you really can't help but have that thought

been who am I? Because you've just been so completely enmeshed in this natural identity and the

self identity as Joan London the co-host of Good Morning America for 20 years. And that's why

you're always introduced. That's how everybody thinks of you. And all of a sudden you're not.

And I was exhausted at that point. And truthfully, I'd asked ABC like, can you come to me on an

evening show, put me on a 2020, put me on something else, get me off the shift. And they didn't really

have a place to put me. And so they wanted me to sign another three-year contract. And I almost

reluctantly signed my name to that three-year contract, another three years of bidding up,

330 in the morning every day. But I did. And then three months later, I got to call

and said they're going to make a change. And you're going to take it off the show. And

it was the shock. I don't know why it should have been a shock. I had asked for it. But it's still a

shock when it wasn't you that did it. When it was then that decides that they're going to replace

you with a 30-year-old Joan London look alike. That nobody knows. And it was really rough. It was

really, it was really rough. And I finally, I came out and I told the audience, and I called up

the executives at ABC. And I said, they did this over at the day show. They replaced Jane Polly with

Debra Norville, the younger girl, and didn't work so well for them. They took a big hit. Like, you're

about to do the same thing. So let me help you help yourself. I'm going to say that I'm leading,

because I was asked me to leave anyway. So I want to leave a class act. I'm going to class act

here for 20 years. I want to leave a class act. And I don't want to leave the woman's corn.

That's just, I don't know why I didn't hide that. And also, it'll be good for me as I go up into

whatever else I'm going to do. And so I went and I really deliberated, John, a lot, as to whether

I was going to tell this story in its entirety and how I was going to tell it. And I thought, you

know what? Don't write a legacy memoir. If you're not going to be 100 percent of honest. And let

them understand, like what you went through, how you decided to make that decision to leave,

just saying, I wanted to leave. So I'm going to leave. So there wasn't this big uproar with the

audience. There was a big uproar anyway, because I think people seek through that whenever someone

says, I want to leave my kids more. Okay. There was a huge drop off. But I wasn't

interested in participating in that. And I don't regret for a minute taking the course that I did.

But it's taken 25 years to write a book and say it. And I thought it was important to tell it

like it was. And to let people understand what that was like. And then, and there was this recorder

that said, as I left some young little spout guy that said, gee, how are you going to ever talk

this one? And like that question lived at the back of my brain year after year, that expectation

that I was supposed to pop up on some other major show. And again, I was exhausted. And I've had

opportunities that came to me that I didn't lean into. And I thought that was important to tell people.

And to realize that there are other ways you can make your mark on this world. And I think it

took me this long to be able to look at the whole arc of my life and say, you know what?

I became this advocate. I did 10 shows after GMA, but they weren't shows that were on every day

that people saw. They were all health shows. And they worked on all these campaigns. And I made

a difference. And that to me at this point, I can now stand back and say, all right, that 25 years

was just as meaningful as the 25 years before as this big national broadcaster. And I needed

people to hear that so that they could take that to their own life.

John, one of the things that I wanted to make sure we talked about was the journey you had with

facing your battle with cancer. And this is very personal for me because I lost my sister to

pancreatic cancer last year. Sorry. And as I was reading your story and remembering some of my

conversations with my sister, there was a similar aspect to it. You write candidly about fear

and not just of dying, but of disappearing. And Carolyn told me the same thing.

For you, how did that shift your definition of courage? And what surprised you most about who

showed up for you and who you expected to and didn't? Well, certainly you learn when you go through

something like that, who are the people, friends and family that show up for you. And in the

aftermath, they become your besties. They become the people you know that you can count on and

that we'll always have your back and we'll always be there. But I think the main thing that I

wanted to convey and telling that story. And of course, I told it in its entirety in another book

that I know. And but I felt it was important to touch on it for a chapter in this book too.

Because within 24 hours, maybe less, it occurred to me that I also, I'd be a doctor like my dad,

my dad, as a cancer surgeon, back at a tongue, and there wasn't radiation, there wasn't chemo.

And I just got this gift. And I know it's hard to imagine somebody thinking of cancer,

diagnosis like that. But in this weird way, it was this gift that just dropped in my lap.

But I said, I can finally fulfill that legacy. I can finally pick up that torch and run with it.

And I'm not going to go through this journey as a victim, as a patient. I'm going to go through this

journey as an advocate. And I'm going to learn everything I can about breast cancer and about

treatments that, and I'm going to take that by phone into every appointment. And I'm going to show

them. And I got to tell you, John, I've had so countless women come back to me and say,

thank you so much for sharing all of that because you took the scary out of it.

It's allowed me to, not to mention, I went in front of Congress, in front of the

FDA to testify in favor of mandatory mammogram reporting, like I started becoming

involved in the advocacy for women. And we've got that legislation passed so that now,

when a woman goes to get a mammogram, they can find out that they have very dense breast

issue, which masks cancer. It shows up white under mammogram exactly the same as cancer.

And now that they know that they need an ancillary test, I only learned that by going for an

interview, I sent to do an interview for a health show I was doing. I learned it from Dr. Susan

Love, the breast book, and came back like marched into my gynecologist and said,

write me a script for an ancillary test. And I got a clean 3D mammogram that day

of my diagnosis. And then when across the fall, it found out in an ultrasound that ancillary

test, that I otherwise wouldn't have known to have. And that left that I had cancer, I said,

I have to pass this message along. That's really what lit this fire in me. You have to do something

about this. You have to make sure that women are told this, and you have to go out and spread the

word. And as far and wide as you possibly can. And for the next five years, I didn't, I don't

even know how to tell you how many breast cancer luncheons I did. And how many times I went back

and forth to Washington, I couldn't even get all the female senators to sign on that this legislation.

Why? Because everybody knows that the next domino to fall is getting insurance coming to

hate for the sancillary test. And they were bigger, stronger, and more will finance than

a little grassroots ladies that were coming in there and saying, can I get an impact about the

senator? And I've never gone to Washington in that capacity. I know I've always gone as a reporter

where they open the door and go and set up the lights. Now I was like knocking on the door. Would

you please sign this bill? It was a totally different experience. And I loved every minute of it.

And it made that journey. It was so hard. I had a year of chemo, I lost my hair,

I lost my eyebrows, and you lose everything. But at the same time, it was an amazing year.

And I wouldn't have passed it up for anything. And I reached a lot of women. I made a difference

in seriously, if I'm not a tombstone, all it's said was she helped other women in their

journey and breast cancer, if it's just said that, I'd be okay with it. But I've shared these

journeys that I've shared these moments in my life, whether it was dealing with this huge

change for you in GMA. And I wrote a book about dealing with change. Or whether it was

aging and going through the things that all of us women go through. So I write a book. My last one,

why did I come into this room? I can't in conversation about aging. Like all these things all

the way through. And because I've chosen to share them, that's what's given me the opportunity

for self-development. That's what's given me this opportunity to feel like I made my mark on the

world. And maybe that mark is even more important than my incredible career in journalism.

Well, I wanted to ask you a follow-on question about that mark, Joan. My aunt, who is also a

breast cancer survivor is the one who wanted me to ask you this. But her father, my grandfather

had dementia. And it was very hard. And she was closer to it than I was. But it was so difficult

to see a person who was so brilliant to reduce to the state that he was in. And on this topic of

advocacy, she wanted me to ask you, you were an advocate for your mom who had dementia. And you're

an advocate on behalf of the elderly and caregivers. She wanted me to ask you, what current challenges do

you feel right now are the most important to address for the elderly and caregivers?

And once again, dealing with my mom. And then I just felt that I needed to help other Americans

get prepared. You don't want to make all these decisions and figure out what

caregiving to an elderly parent is all about when the crisis occurs. And yet, unfortunately,

that's how most of us do it. In today's world, the reason why I went to Washington to advocate for

passing an addition to the family medical and leave act was wonderful that family medical

leave act finally gave women and then subsequently men the ability to leave when their child is

born and not lose their job at work. But now, I went and said, that's not the only time people need

to have protection. They need to, at the end of life, this is like at the beginning of it,

at the end of life, we have a nation full of people that are having to leave jobs and dip into

their own retirement to take care of aging parents and aging spouse and anybody that's in your

circle that you become responsible for advocating or their actual care. And this is going to become

a bigger and bigger issue because the population in our country is going through this very rapid

change. And by 2030, we're going to far more people over 65 than we have under 18. And as we have

these wonderful advancements that are keeping us all alive, this huge older population is going

to live longer and longer. And it's starting to get good publicizing so that people start

understanding, I'm going to have to maybe live another 20 years when I only thought I was going

to live another five or eight years. And I have to plan for this. But I'm going to say that

everybody out there right now who has aging parents and you might not even consider them aging

yet. If they're in their 60s, sit them down and take your phone and interview them. Start with them

about what life was like when they were young. And then what was life like when you know you and

dad or you and mom met? What was I like as a kid? And they might, if they're older, they won't

remember what they had the lunch 15 minutes ago, but they can connect with these memories.

Now you've got them in this wonderful place that they're talking about their life and they're

sharing with you. And this is your opportunity to say, and by the way, as long as we're talking about

this, is there any, is there a relative that had any kind of chronic illness that you know

that maybe other people don't know like an odd and uncle and grandpa or grandma that they have

like polyps that they are colon cancer or breast cancer or anything that maybe didn't get

talked about because in the old days they didn't talk about it. That's your chance to find out

that so you know your health risks. And then you can say, all right, we were talking about the

past. Let's talk about the future. I'm the one I can be your advocate. I want to know what you

how you see your future if you want to stay here in the house if you can. And instead of staying

sitting down saying, all right, I'm going to be responsible for you. So tell me all this stuff

which they're not going to want to do because it makes them pay some mortality. And that's an

uncomfortable situation. This is a really cozy familial opportunity to get them to look at their

future. So that's something that I always suggest people do. But in the meantime, make sure you

are signed onto their bank account. Make sure you have all the important papers you need.

Make sure there's a HIPAA release because hospitals and assisted living places can't talk to you

and their doctors can't talk to you unless your name is on that HIPAA release knowing one name.

So don't get the most worrisome person in your family. Don't let the civilian lose the worry

wart. Put everything on that. And make sure you have a durable power of attorney for financial

and for help. And get them to do a living will. The will is for what they're going to leave after

they're gone. But what about when their life is in the balance and you don't know whether they want

to have a feeding tube, you put on a respirator, donate their organs, and they're uncomfortable

conversations. But you can do it. You can say, Mom, Dad, my husband and I just saw this

we just listened to this podcast and they told us we should do this. So we just did this with

each other. Have you guys done that? There's ways you can get them to open up without

making them feel like you're forcing them to face their mortality.

We just did this with my parents and it is tough because you realize they are getting older,

but it was actually them who forced the issue on my brother and I. But I'm glad we did it as

painful as it was. John, today we've really talked about how for part of your life you were

mastering the script. And now you're in this new chapter where that script has grown in ways

you probably never expected it and would have. So my last question for you is for someone who's

listened today who feels their best chapters behind them, but you're advised. No, you're never

too old to write a new script. And a lot of people do feel that way. And that's why I just felt it

was so important to write this book. Not just to say, oh, look at all the things I've done.

But to let them realize that I've rewritten my script, I don't know, like, that doesn't try

it is at least since I left GMA. And I think when they and a lot of people when I'm out places

they'll say, oh, hi, are you enjoying retirement? Meanwhile, I've got five campaigns I've

worked on. My husband always says, just tell him you're enjoying retirement, please. Don't feel

held to tell them all the things you're still doing. But it's important for them to understand that

I've still been open to opportunity. I'm lucky that having had the platform I had a lot of things

come my way. It might pass up the opportunity to do all these meaningful things. And it might not be

the situation where you have those kinds of opportunities. But that doesn't mean that you can't

plant a new garden, learn a new hobby, join the group, be a reader, a reader never goes to

bed alone. You can always be ensconced in someone else's story. And then join a book club because

it's really important as you start to get older that you stay engaged and you keep talking with

people. These are some of the most important aspects of successful aging. And I thought that

is important to talk about in writing this book. So I'm excited to read light beyond the script.

Joan, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm sure we'll be a fan favorite for the passion

struck listeners who was such an honor to have you. Thank you so much. That brings us to the end

of today's conversation with Joan London and the beginning of something new because this episode

introduces a question that many people avoid until life forces it. Who am I now? Joan's story

reminds us. Identity evolves. Confidence follows action. Transition shape who we become. And reinvention

remains available at every stage of life. This is what life beyond the script is all about.

Continuing forward with awareness. If this conversation resonated with you,

share it with someone who may be navigating change. Leave a five star rating or review on Apple

Podcasts or Spotify. Explore more at theignitedlife.net. You can also pick up a copy of my new

children's book, UMatterLuma at UMatterLuma.com. Next, we continue life beyond the script with Leslie

John, a behavioral scientist and professor at Harvard Business School. We discuss her new book

Revealing. And what it takes to show up honestly in a world that often rewards performance over

authenticity. We explore why people hold back what it costs to hide parts of ourselves and how

revealing who we are at the right time and the right way can reshape our relationships or work

in our sense of identity. We want to feel known for who we are and we want to not be so alone.

And what's interesting, the corporate world or academia buttoned up academia, I started noticing

like in these meetings, nobody is sharing their actual feelings about this. Like we're sharing

our thoughts, we're kind of dancing around. And I just realized how pervasive this is the holding

back. I'm not saying we should reveal everything all the time, but I think that most of us

stand to benefit tremendously from revealing a little bit more a lot of the time.

Until then, remember, you are allowed to evolve. You are allowed to change and you are allowed

to write a new chapter at any point in your life. This is John Miles and you've been passion

struck.