John McEnroe: Why Winning Was Never Enough

0:00I wasn't, you know, the biggest guy, the strongest guy, but I had an energy and I brought intensity to the court. I walk out and ready to go for the jugular. Neither, um, maybe better than I thought, but these guys are worse than I thought. And I think it was a combination. I thought that this would mean all the girls would love me and no one cared. And so I was like, man, I gotta be better than 21 in the world. I gotta, you know, be one or two or something. So I, they'll start to pay attention. How do you feel good about yourself as a person when things aren't going well in a tennis court? I watch Alcoraz. I'm like, how hell is he so happy on the court all the time? Jogi Bitch was like the bad guy, a Darth Vader or something. It's been a struggle to get that respected deserves. Everyone loves Rodron Rafa, right? And he's never gonna get that. Blue Insiders, it's Karol Garcia. Before we start, one quick thing. If you enjoy this conversation, hit the subscribe button.

1:01It's the best way to help us grow and keep bringing you the players and coaches you love. Thank you so much. John, thank you so much for being with us today. It's a real pleasure. How did you start with tennis? You know, my parents moved around a lot as a kid. I moved in two or three different homes. I was born in Germany. I came to the US at one, one year old. I was in two or three places in Queens, which is nearby where I live now. We moved to an area where there was a tennis club and a swimming and it was a block away. I was eight years old. So I was about eight and a half. I went down to the club and there was a wall. Walls are free, you know, they don't charge there. So I started hitting against a wall and the pro there said to my parents, hey, your kid, you should put him in like a group lesson, you know, he looks like he's got some athletic ability. That's sort of where it started.

2:01Then there's this famous book in America Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell. It's sort of like things happen. You fall into things, you're sort of lucky and the coach there said, oh, you should send them to Port Washington, tennis academy, which is where it turned out the stamous coach was. He coached these grades in Australia. And then one thing led to another and then the next thing, you know, I was playing on the pro tour. Well, that's maybe 10 years later. You got successful quite early on tour, not? When I was 18, you know, I was working that way up to junior rankings. I was seven in the nation and the 12 in unders. I was six in the nation and the 14 in unders. When I was 18 and I was the number one junior in the world. So the US tennis associate and sent me to Paris and London to play the juniors. I had been given an opportunity to play one ATP event the year before where I had won around. So I had five points.

3:03You need more points now to get in the qualifying. But at that time, five points had to be at 277 in the world. Five points. So I got in the qualifying of Paris. And I ended up qualifying and winning around, which gave me six points. I was winning around and one point for qualifying, five more. So I got in the qualifying at Wimbledon. And so I won the juniors at the French. I played, I won the mixed doubles. The first year I played, I was 18. I played the men's doubles, played men's singles. I missed my high school graduation. But I ended up at 18, getting to the semis of Wimbledon through the qualifying, which was, you know, I wasn't expecting that because I was sort of looking like either maybe better than I thought. These guys are worse than I thought. And I think it was a combination. So after I got to the semis of Wimbledon,

4:03and suddenly I was 71 in the world. And so I'm like, oh my God, everyone's like, you should turn pro. And I was, I don't know, I think I'm ready. And so I decided to go to college, that fall. I went to Stanford. I was 21 in the world when I entered college, which is unusual, because most players aren't in the even in the top 500. But I wanted to be part of the team. And I felt like I wasn't ready like mentally, you know, to be on the road all the time. What that would entail. So I went to Stanford, played on the team. There was a target on my back, because people started to hear of me a little bit from Wimbledon. And that actually was a good thing, preparation. Plus I was able to experience college. So that helped me. So I turned pro at 19. I missed the French that year, because I was playing like the college championships. But after that, like it took about, I don't know, six months. I was like, man, I'm not, it's not cutting it.

5:04And I finally clicked in after about six months on the pro tour, sort of understanding what it took a little bit more. And then finally, you know, coming here at 20, which for me, the US Open was, I mean, I ball, I was a ball by for many years. I grew up 15 minutes away. So for me, it was like, this is amazing. I played another New Yorker in the final two kids from Queens, which has never happened before since. So it was the biggest life change in one was getting into the semis of Wimbledon. I thought that this would mean, you know, when I went to college, you know, all the girls would love me. And, you know, I'd be, you know, this would be great, but no one cared. This is sort of around the time that, you know, the computers and tech stuff, it's, you know, people were interested in themselves. And so I was like, man, I got to be better than 21 in the world. I got to, you know, be one or two or something. So I can, they'll start to pay attention.

6:06So there were certain things that happened to me that helped along the way to make me realize what it would take. And it was like kind of a goal or dream for you to win a slag. It was like, what do you want it to achieve? Well, I think for every player you want to win one, you don't, I, I, I, I didn't say a 12 or 14. I want to win a slag. My mother was always, what happens if you break your leg? You know, you've got to, you know, I want you to be a lawyer or a doctor. My dad was more, you know, I think you could do this. But when I was 12, I felt like my dad was putting a lot of pressure on me as parents, you know, in a loving way, maybe he hope can do. So I said, Dad, what do you want for me is, you know, in tennis in my career or life. And he said, I want you to get a college scholarship. Okay, I did that eventually. And I want you to play for your country, David Scott. I said, I'm 12.

7:07So maybe we just, it was way to few years. That helped me take a little pressure off because I see, you know, I have a tennis academy, 10 minutes from here. Lot of parents put him way too much pressure on their kids. I tried to make them understand that that's not the good thing to do. So I was able to sort of even though you feel the pressure, you, who do you want to look good for in a way when you're a kid? Your, your mom and your dad, you want to make them proud. And so, but you don't want to feel like, oh my God, I have to do this for them. You want to be able to do it for yourself. So I think that that helped me because of course we all know that, you know, playing out there, you, especially the better you do than you, it's like you might have to do it again and again. And it feels like in some ways, you never satisfied. And do you think for you, sometimes it was, it was tough to really play for yourself and not blame for your parents or your father. For me, I know like sometimes like obviously my father was very involved in my

8:08career. And sometimes for me was hard to like go that's you and he was never in love, you know? Well, fortunately, my father had a full time job because a lot of times the parents like quit their jobs, he did become my agent for 10 years. So he, it was like 50% knee, 50% his job. My mom was a nurse and operating room nurse, but then I have two younger brothers. So she, you know, became more of just a mom. But of course you have to sort of find your own path. It's hard because you do feel like you're, you have to live up to in a way what they want as well as what you want. My mom when I was 26, I already had, you know, a lot of success. Then I took a break. Like I had a child for the my son for the first time. And I never planned on stopping. I was 26 years. Let's see, 27 when my first child was born.

9:10And so I was thinking, okay, I've got to regroup. It's been a crazy seven, eight years. I got to, you know, get stronger. There was change. The game was changing. And at one point my mom was calling me and said, are you going to quit? And I'm like, no, I'm not going to quit. She's like, thank God, we can still, you can still afford to buy diapers for your son. I'm like, I think I'm doing okay. Don't worry about that. So even then you feel like a pressure, you know, and in that case, I didn't, I wish in retrospect I'd taken a whole year off to like, you know, pull it, pull it back for me because I needed that break. But I felt pressure to come back because of, you know, you're signed with certain people that, you know, if you don't play enough tournaments, you don't get your bonus, you don't get paid contracts, all this other stuff. My ranking was, you know, number at that time was number two. I didn't, you know, drop down to the 20s, not playing.

10:10So like you feel this pressure to come back and it's hard to think years ahead. So I respect the players that are able to do that. It's hard to do. You've been always quite famous, no, for your emotions on court. And I think you mentioned a few times, like the anger and the stress that tennis brought you. Was it tennis or was all this pressure that you felt from family? That's a good question. You know, a lot of psychiatrists and psychiatrists ask me that same question. Are you a psychiatrist? I'm not. But like, after two or three years in the rollercoaster of tennis with her, I've started when there's going to be like how intense it is this sport. Yeah. Well, I can relate to mevidevillett, you know, what he did. He's like tapped out, you know, and we all go through that where you know, the one second you hate it and the next second you love it. That's unfortunately a part of it, you know, and it's difficult. I think that when I grew up, it's tennis was the type of sport where you were

11:10supposed to behave a certain way and dress a certain way. And I wanted to be, I wanted to have it where we would be looked upon tennis players the same way other athletes say on a football pitch or we call soccer or we call football. They're not saying hello. How are you on the field? You know, they're ready to kill each other. And there was some trash talking when when I was playing, you know, Connors would, you know, you saw me the worst, you know, and see how to stand up for yourself. So that's seen normal. You know, and also I live in New York City. It's pretty loud. So it, I was surprised when I went to Wimble. I'm like, they're so quiet. They behave themselves so well. What is this? I, I think I'm more like the French fans, honestly, like, they're very emotional. And, and that's the way I am. It's more normal. Like to me, it's more normal to act the way I did than the way board did. It's very difficult to have like total control at times.

12:12You know, you always feel like you're in the edge of disaster, potentially. Sometimes you feel on the edge of disaster. And it's tough to, you know, it's tough to sort of be, you know, in the public, you know, and see that. So it's, it is important. You know, they, they talk about, especially since the pandemic, they're talking more and more about, you know, mental health, which is good. But, you know, it was, that's not as if it hasn't been happening for a long time in sports. I suppose the money because there's more money, it's become even worse. But generally speaking, it's, this is an issue that, I mean, why did you on board stop? And you, you never played a major after 25. How to other people seem to handle it so well, you know, I watch Alchoraz. I'm like, how hell is he so happy on the court all the time? Roger Federer. I always was like, this guy looks like he loves every minute of it. And what do you think these guys do, do different or what I wish I knew? You know, I wish I knew that how they were able to handle the pressure that way,

13:16the expectations and to be able to like, I mean, I love Alchoraz. So he's my favorite guy to watch. And I just can't believe this kid. It's even possible that you can be like this. He's so, he's so round. Maybe, maybe it's not true, but like the image, at least I get no one watching, especially Alkaraz. You see me here, so round things to be like happy and celebrating him. And maybe he doesn't have like all those expectations. No, like, I know what he does. He does. Oh, sure. I mean, I'm never talking to him. He's going to have more majors and talk about it. But he's like, I don't know. He was his mom, no, in his documentary saying like, he's a champion. He wants to take a break and take care of him. Like, just welcome to do it. You know, like, I don't know like, well, it takes a strong person in the good people around. But, listen, we had the same thing. You know, it's if you play and win a Wimble, then you want to enjoy it, right? Yeah. You don't have to, but the schedule, for example, oftentimes with me, I'd have played Davis Cup the week after playing. The schedule is terrible. We were playing almost the whole year. Yeah.

14:16We have to make our own schedule. Sometimes you have to make decisions and other tournaments aren't going to be happy with. Look at what happened earlier this summer where the top three or four male players didn't play in Toronto. I mean, I don't think the people that ran Toronto are too happy. Yeah. So these things, but you have to be able to sort of know yourself well enough, which is difficult because you want to, you know, be dependable for the tour. But yet you have to do sort of what's best for yourself and hope that you do what's best for yourself is best for the game. That's the, you know, you got to find that balance. And it's hard to do. But everyone over the course of the last 50 years, and pro tennis, you know, it started in the late 60s has been trying to figure out the best way to be able to enjoy yourself the most you possibly can. I enjoyed myself off the court and went, you know, I didn't go to a visa, but I go somewhere and have a great time. It's not like he's the only guy that's ever done it.

15:17And in the, in the podcast, we had Daniel Collins who was saying that sometimes on court, she gets mad. She has to pick up the fight. Sounds familiar. Yeah. And she said it was for her sometimes to play better tennis or go find some more energy. Did you ever add that? I was, he was. Yeah, I look at Daniel Collins. I'm like, we have similar personalities. She's very feisty. I actually thought that the umpire and the lines were so bad that you needed to call it out, actually. It was, you know, I remember coming to Wimbledon once and I was playing doubles early on. And I look up and there's a guy, you know, he's asleep. Literally, you know, it was like 80 years old. And I'm like, don't wake him up. He, he, I think he's better when he's asleep. So sometimes I guess there were obviously times we just try to fire yourself up. Not automatic. You could get mad at yourself. Something happens, you know, I'm hyper aware of everything that's happening in the crowd.

16:20If the lines will screw it up, the problem I had is they never once admitted they made a mistake. Does he count up? They can't admit it, but they show they won't. Now we watched hit tennis balls our whole lives watching. And so to me, we see it better than the lines, man. It's a tough job. I get it. If you do a great job as an umpire or a linesman, no one knows who you are. What person wants to do that? Nobody you would think. So I have some sympathy for that part, but not sympathy. We're like, John, I didn't see it. I don't know. We're just, you know, don't insist every single time that they saw it and I didn't. That's the part that got me. Not like, I mean, in my career, I had been the experience of like the umpire and then the challenges and now it's like all electronic. And it's true sometimes between your own stress, between the moment of the match. And that sometimes it's very close or very fast. So you've been, you, you saw it out for some reason and like they're calling in.

17:22And you're like so mad for like just like the little extra things that's made you like, but you know, you're speaking to the person that understands that a lot better than anyone. But I mean, to me, I'd like to come out. I wasn't, you know, the biggest guy, the strongest guy, but I had an energy. I think and I brought intensity to the court. So I felt like I had to be ready the first point. You know, I walk out and ready to, you know, go for the jugular just, you know, get the guy right away. Break, right? First game. That energy, like if anyone came up to me, I'd be like, you know, ready to, you know, grab the guy by the neck. So, you know, it was a little bit like I was so hyped up, you know, before I went out there that sometimes. And also as, as you know, when you play here at times anywhere, but especially here, Australia gets a little hot at times, you know, I found it more difficult to control my emotions when it was getting really hot.

18:25So that, you know, I'm, that's this, you know, I'm, I think a lot of players feel that it's extremely difficult, but especially when you're really hot and something bad happens and you're trying to sort of keep that concentration. So that, you know, people at times would say, oh, he's doing that on purpose to throw off his opponents, say, whatever, I'm like, if that's all it takes to throw off your opponent, that's their problem. Yeah. Did it bother you like the criticism from the media or like, I don't know, maybe the tennis environment that they felt this was it something that affected you on all you didn't care. I'd be lying to say that it didn't bother me, but at times, I had a couple people like, you may have heard of him, the Mick Jagger, say, from the Rolling Stones or Jack Nichols in one of the greatest actors ever, Phil Knight, who own, uh, own Nike, okay. Call me up when they're attending Suspend John Mackinar for a year, these idiots that, you know, work in the tennis business.

19:26Don't change a thing. Who would you listen to? Yeah, those three people. Or these some 80 year old that runs, you know, a tennis association. So I think even though I deserve criticism at times, a lot of it I didn't deserve, uh, in my opinion. And I took a lot of heat and wimbleed it. Did I deserve some of it? Yeah, I deserved some of it, but a lot of it was just, you know, to sell newspapers and I was just, you know, uh, I was taken the brunt of it. But, you know, meanwhile, it was bringing some interest to the sport overall. I think that, you know, you want to grow the game. Ultimately, if I'm feel like I'm part of I'm doing that, that's what I feel proud of also. Yeah. Do you feel it made you play it play better? At times it made me play better. When I had children, uh, towards the end of my career, I felt like I was the, uh, equivalent of being a cigarette smoker who couldn't quit. Yeah. Um, and that's a frustrating feeling like wanting to sort of, you know, maybe set a better example now that I have little kids and that he's yelling.

20:33Um, so, um, that's a little bit, uh, but it felt like it just was old. You know, and the irony is that I used to get fine when I would say some, you know, you can't be serious whatever it was. All these things. Um, and then I played on the seniors to our for 20 years. And then if it wouldn't pay me unless I said it. Yeah. So for the same thing, the same thing when I was, oh, you know, I could hit a great shot. No one would say a word. And then I yell at the emperor. Yeah. Well, you've seen a thing that we can go now. So in a way, it was sort of sad, but it's also I guess sort of like, I guess it's sort of cool that people still know like some young kid. Oh, that's, you know, uh, you know, instead of who's that old guy, you know, that maybe a couple of people still know who I am. You need different, uh, player, different character. I mean, that's why Alka Reson Center is turning into, you know, something great. They're totally different personalities. They play different.

21:34They approach it different. Um, when I was with Bjorn, we were told, I mean, actually off the court, we were pretty similar. But on the court, total opposites, I think that's more interesting. Your style of play. If everyone played the same way, it'd be boring. True. That's a little bit of the problem. That's why Alka Res is so great because he's brought back sort of violin and moving forward. Yeah. Um, and even in the women's game, you see this, there, everyone watches everybody and say, oh my god. If I could add more, look at Sabah Lankar, why does she, you know, start winning? I think she added more to her game. Sveontek recently served bigger. We know, willing to move forward. It's great when players can do everything. And so that contrast makes it interesting. Of course, personality, but you don't want everyone just sort of flat line. You need people to show, I'm, you know, I'm one of those players that likes to see emotion. I think we, I mean, let's say like Borg had something that like an aura, like he was like superman. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Never said a word.

22:36So that's an amazing thing. I remember when I was 13, he was playing Wimbledon more than the first, he was 15 or 16. He won his match in about 200 girls ran on his center court. And I'm like, I want to be a professional. Something like that happened. That would be incredible. So he had this something about him. It's like, you know, Roger didn't go crazy. He is something. Rafa, you felt that just intense, you know, desire to win. That's you, you, you love that. And he had other promotions. Like there were like nobody emotions, but the guy when he was doing a good winner, he was like jumping. I loved that. And that was so great for the game. Then Joke of it was like the, you know, the bad guy, like Darth Vader or something. You know, and he, it's been a struggle to get that respect he deserves. I relate a little bit because Borg and Conners are one, two, to try to, I was like, oh, someday I want to be in the same league as Borg and Conners.

23:38I've got to get, because people love to see them. And so it was always a goal. It's just like him trying to want to be like respected as much or loved as much as Roger and Rafa. That's pretty tough to do. Everyone loves Roger and Rafa, right? And he's never going to get that. So the way he, I don't think, and the way he got it is winning more than that. Yeah, exactly. And still he's, yeah, he's like, you don't like me too bad. You're going to respect me. And I always think he was great for the game, ultimately. But he, and he was smart and he says the right things, but it's just, you know, I don't know, well, it's it the way he looked or where he's from or just because he's playing these two guys. But he'll always have the respect parts. So he didn't have to worry too much about that. No. I mean, it's really interesting why he was always, I don't know if he hated his the world, but like always like look like the lesser of the three, you know, and like the guy was pretty soon at the same level.

24:39Well, he's probably hated a little bit because he was so good. Yeah. And his game, you know, technically, it's not as flashy as the other two guys. It's more, it's technically sound. Yeah. If you talk someone as a kid when there's eight years old, you say, hit a, like, he plays. Yeah, he's very efficient. Yeah. So, but it's not like, oh my god, we, you know, like you see, Alchra, I'm like, oh my god, you know, incredible. And he, he almost wants to, you know, be on a highlight real show. Whereas joke of it just wants to win. Yes. Yeah, he doesn't care. Either one of them's all right. Yeah. We'll have to accept both. And when you were playing, where are you taking your losses very well? I didn't even take wins that well. So, you know, that's interesting. Well, the ocean is you win. You're who's next, you know, that's the problem. You talked to me about this a couple of years ago. It's the same type of thing. You know, how do you find that balance? It's, it's really difficult for anybody.

25:41Um, I was pretty good actually at moving past losses. Okay. I think, I mean, I, I hope I showed respect, you know, when I lost, you know, to the players that beat me. Um, I think that's the toughest thing to sort of do in a way is walk up when you've lost, to shake their hand and be like, too good. Yeah. My goal was, you know, I before a match or a tournament to go in the bathroom, look in the mirror and say, uh, are you doing the best you can? Most of the time, it feels like, I remember playing Jimmy Connors. I was like, no one's ever tried his heart as this guy. He was like the Raffi on the dial of my time. Hmm. And I'd look in the mirror, you try his heart as him and they'd be like, no, I'm not. And so at least it was like, it pushed me to like try. And sometimes when things are going badly, it's hard to try your best. It's really difficult like because you feel like you're naked in a way out there and then it is you're embarrassed. And it's a tough thing to handle for anybody.

26:42And you know, if you look at the best players in the world, uh, even the best, they're losing, you know, 10 times in a year maybe, uh, and sometimes more often than that. So you have to, you look at a player who's 40 in the world. And a lot of times they've lost more matches than they've won or they're 500. Yeah. And this person's, and the men's or women's is top 50. So you have to be able to handle that, which is as a kid, you don't think that because we're pretty much winning almost all the time. Hmm. True. That's the transition from junior years to the real tour is like hard, you know, because you go from feeling you're as superstar to, I mean, not for you, maybe the transition was easier, but for a lot of people, it takes years of losing a lot. No, I like, it's hard to know how to take it, I guess. In your academy, was your approach to try to help kids? Well, my approach to my academy, uh, no one listens to me by the way, but the, the approach is I believe in playing more than one sport, uh, as a kid.

27:45Mm-hmm. It's good for you mentally. You could be tennis your own, your own. That's why I love doubles. The physicality of playing soccer, I call football, you're sprinting, stopping, similar to tennis, I think. Basketball, I love basketball, I played high school basketball, I played high school soccer. Because I would play all summer and I get burned out in all these terms. I'd be like, I need a break. I don't, and I'm 14, 15, you know, you feel like almost like, I don't want to say I hated, but I didn't, you know, I was like, I got to get away. And so there would be three, four, five months where I'd only play two days a week. Yeah. That was what I needed. Some players, I guess, can go and, you know, live in Nick Politaries and, you know, become just totally into tennis. That's not my approach. I'd like to give a different option for kids in this area. I believe now college has become a great, uh, uh, vehicle for players because you get

28:49a scholarship. Now they even pay sometimes players. You mature, you grow up, you're part of a team. Now, uh, players are playing later in their careers. Yeah. I mean, my day, it was maybe 18 to 28. Maybe that was your, now it's probably 22 to 32 or something. You know, it's five years later. In some cases, late 30s, Gile Monfese is about to turn 39. I never would have thought he'd still be playing. Neither here. Yeah. Yeah. But physically, you know, watching Jokemitch, I think it's, it's, I'm like, how the hell is this even possible? Yeah. And he can still, you know, play at this level. And you were mentioning that finding that balance with other sports or hobbies, when, when you were a pro, it was also important for you to have other stuff outside of the tennis or no, it was only tennis. Well, I mean, it becomes your sort of pretty much that's your job in a way. It's a great job, but you're sort of obsessed with everything. I started to play guitar. I showed you a few of my guitars up there just to get away a little bit.

29:53I love art, you know, too. But I would even find it tiring to go to museums, you know, walking around and looking. And then I come back, oh, good, she's in time. So in a way, I couldn't do that as much as I like to. I love other sports, but I mean, I didn't want to go get hurt playing basketball, just because I played high school basketball. It doesn't mean I should go play pickup game, even though I wanted to. In a way, I did some of that, but you need to, of course, get away from it or else then it becomes this, you're obsessed and it becomes eventually, you also want to grow up as a human being. We live in a bubble. You think the world revolves around the tour. Well, there's more, you know, a little bit more going on out there. So if you're able to get that perspective, which is hard, that there's more to life than tennis, then you get sort of the results don't become quite as, you know, all encompassing or just, every second of your day in life is all about tennis.

30:54And, you know, how can I do this in the next match? I mean, it's just, it is normal, but it's, it can be detrimental. I can relate to the large part. I figured it out. Yeah, I don't really. You have like all of nothing. I was just tennis result, that is, that is result work. Um, yeah, with my identity, I was just a thanks player and I was with at nothing else. And you're not the only one, you know, because you feel like if you're not, see, this is the part, this is the trick. This is the hard part. How do you feel good about yourself as a person when things aren't going well on a tennis court? You feel like you're less, less of a person. I'm a loser. And then, oh, no, you know, that's just the tennis part. You can, you know, still feel great, you know, well, it does, it doesn't seem to happen that much. So it's important that we continue to explore ways to try to get to that place.

31:55Yeah. Unfortunately, it is almost for most people, it's extremely difficult to get that balance, just right. And then when you leave a year after, you'll see in a year or two, oh, my love tennis is the great. And how could I have ever felt anything stress at all about tennis? It's the great, maybe you should be a commentator. That way you can be a backseat driver. You can be part of it and you should have done that. Should have done this. You know, and you never, you don't miss very much. And even if you do miss as a commentator, it doesn't matter as people are playing. That what matters is the match. A commentator is like, you bake a beautiful chocolate cake. That's the players. The commentators, maybe if you put a little icing on top. And if you do a good job, you make it a little more interesting, hopefully, for the people watching. But ultimately, it doesn't really matter what you say. So that's a, that's a pretty nice thing.

32:56And then you start to appreciate me. I was able to appreciate things I wasn't appreciating before. Like, I'd be, I'll never be a commentator. That sucks. And then I like, if I play seniors tennis, just tell me I'm a total loser. All the things that I said I wouldn't do I was doing. And I'll see. Last year I would not say the same, but last year I was like, I will never touch a tennis racket every again. I was like, we can do everything we want, but don't ask me to play tennis with you. And, and I felt like during the season and end of last year, I changed a lot about that. I realized like, my problem was not with tennis itself. Obviously, like, competition, ups and downs and identity issue and everything was more the trouble, but I feel like even on my last match, I knew it was my last tournament. I got so stressed, I had ups and downs of emotional and I cannot deal with that anymore.

33:59It's like I cannot be in such a state for a tennis match. I cannot, cannot be real. Well, that's sort of why I never retired. Because some people, you know, if when you announce it in a way, it's a relief because you're like, okay, I just have to do this one last time and it's going to be great and whatever happens. That's what you could tell yourself, right? But then you get closer, you know, maybe it'd be nice to win. You know, it's better than losing. But you can go through some, and it's up to the play. It does, you know, it's whatever makes the player happy. Martin and Avartilova wanted to go on a year tour for a year. Rafa maybe to sum it, you know, or he doesn't really want it. He wouldn't even admit it was his last French open. You know, so he didn't want it. Some people do want it. It's whatever makes you happy. I was in sort of the middle of it end of my first marriage.

35:01So I was like, I don't even want to think about it. Like, and just time went on. And it just, but in a way, it was sort of just sort of walking out the back door. But I was still around it a little bit. Started to play like seniors and the competition was pretty tough then. Players I was playing. So it sort of took my mind off it and taking care of my kids. But it's always, it always very rarely does it end the way you want. I mean, name a player that went out the way they wanted to. Any player. Pete Sanpas won this tournament in 2002, I believe. He won his 14th major. He never played another match. So that you can say, are you, hey, I went out like on top winning a major. But he thought, no one's going to catch me, you know, I've got more grand slimes than anyone. It took 35 years to get past Roy Amerson who had 12, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

36:04I have 14. I'm going to be like the greatest player that ever lived forever, right? That tough part for Pete. Now three people went by. He was 31 years old when he won that match. Do you think maybe, I mean, and I don't know if this is, but it could be a couple, wait a minute. Maybe I should have kept playing. Maybe I could have won more. Maybe I would have been, you know, thought of better than these other guys if I kept doing it. So even when you see me, they go out in a perfect way. Bjorn Borges, my greatest rival, his last major, he was 25. Right here, I played him at the US Open. He walked, I shook his hand. They started the ceremony. They said, well, the runner up Bjorn Borges, where is he? He left. Oh, yeah. Never played another grand slam match. And then I was, what, where is he?

37:07And it was sort of like, oh, okay. You talk about like these mental health issues and, you know, I don't, you know, I remember Bjorn telling me, I'm going to quit. I'm like, what the, what? A month later, he said he was going to quit playing to me and my great buddy, Vita, scarolitis. We thought he was kidding. You're 25. You know, what are you going to do the rest of your life? I don't know. But that's what happened. And so the part where you don't feel bad about it, you know, you don't win your last match very often. Let's put it that way. And you don't go out the way you want to. Not again. You have to, but it'd be like, if you want to take the decision, like, you are in peace with it. And like, obviously, it's not like, probably there is not a perfect way to end the spot carrier, especially in tennis.

38:10But at the end, you just take the decision if you don't want to be. Maybe you want to start a family. That'll change your life. If you may last at the end, they have also a lot of that. That's a disadvantage, you know, female athletes. I know they're doing more like maternity leave. And you see at least Kim Clisters, who's, you know, a great friend. She was able to, you know, seemingly be better. My favorite player growing up was Ivan Gula-Gonk. She was one of the first of the first to have a baby and then win, win, will dinner something. So it can't happen to its way harder for a girl. It sucks for it in that way. Because, you know, you're, that's a big change. I was in the delivery room for five kids. And believe me, it's an amazing. I didn't want to change. I understood that I had a easy job. Would you have done anything different? Of course. Yeah. I would have done a lot of things different. But I mean, if you'd told me, you know, 18,

39:12this is the way it's going to play out. I think in a way, where I'd be ended up, you know, even past the 15 years I played in the main tour in the 20 years, I think it's, you know, having children, for example, made me, I think it made me a lot better person. Didn't necessarily, it's not, therefore, it didn't help my tennis. It was hard to juggle, you know. You want to be with your kids. You, as you get all the, you need to train harder just to stay the same. But you, it gives you a different perspective on life, which is something I needed. Because my head was getting too big. You know, I remember one year, you know, one of my first son was born and I didn't play Wimbledon. I said, you watch this. Wimbledon's going to fall apart without me. This is 1986. I'd been in five finals. The previous six years leading up to that. And I was like, it's going to come to a complete halt. And then I'm like, oh my god, they're still playing.

40:13It goes on whether you're playing or not, no matter how big you think you are. So, you know, some humbling helped a little bit, you know, you want to, you need to be cocky, but you also just as a human being. So I feel like all at all, the journey that I've taken these past 30, 40 years, almost, oh god, almost 50 years, it's going to be 50 in two years that I've been playing, you know, involved in professional tennis. I feel proud of where I've ended up. That's a good thing, you know, I feel good like people used to come up to me all the time. They go, you're an incredible commentator. You're a better commentator than you were a tennis player. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on there a second. You know, I did win seven majors and I won, you know, I did win a fair amount. And then I realized, you know, at first I was, for 10 years, I was pissed. It's like, god damn it, don't tell me I'm a better commentator. It's bullshit. And then, I was like, wait a minute, if they're saying that, this is really, it's like the

41:16huge screen. It's a big compliment, right? So then I was like, hey, if I must be pretty good commentator, if they're saying I'm better than I was tennis, that's pretty good at tennis. So it's all like a matter of the way you look at it, ultimately. So you've got to keep continually being willing to be open minded about sort of hopefully maturing a little bit. Now that I'm 66, hopefully I'm maturing a little bit. You still want to be a kid at heart. That's the fun part about tennis. It keeps you sort of like feeling like you're a kid. I go out with my kids at my academy. I mean, I'm going to beat their ass today. I'm going to show them they don't know what the hell they're doing. They have no idea how to play, but they can hit the ball. And I'm just going to, you know, and then all of a sudden I go, oh god, I can't move. But so it just, does that feel good? No. Just getting old things, no fun. So enjoy your youth. So I would best.

42:16Yeah. I think we're getting close to the end. One advice would you give to younger players trying to turn pros or will be your advice to them? I don't think that the rush to turn pro should be placed on the kid, especially a teenage kid. I mean, there's exceptions to the rule. Some 99.9% of them should be sort of on a path where they're feeling support and love and nurturing. That's what I try to do with my kids at the tennis academy. I try to push them to play other sports. You know, to go to regular school. The most of the kid, homeschool. Then they're more isolated. I don't agree with that. I like the college idea. I think there's 40 players now that play college. Maybe more in the men's and women's draw that are played. I think more than that now. Even a lot of European players that go to the French men's side. No, there's already a few who are coming out of university, which is crazy. And that was unheard of before.

43:17You're seeing more of that. But because players can play later, I think it's really important not to push them too much. Everything's people's attention spans are so small now. You need to focus and not, you know, push these. A lot, they don't talk about the kids that don't even make it. Yes. You know, I don't know how many kids are, you know, IMG, ballad terrors. I'm going to throw out at 500. How many make it out of there? Yeah, I remember like when she explained me her story. I remember thinking how about other people who had the same birth, but they make it. They're broken. Kids probably like probably 495 or 498 out of 500. So you have to be careful with what happens with those kids. So I was happy like even though I would always hear my mom, you know, you need to go to school. They need to, it takes a little pressure off. You got to do things to get the kids to what the like doing it. I mean, let's face it after a while. It's a little boring, you know, forehand cross court.

44:20They're there. You know, so that's part of why I like doubles or, you know, they're just play matches and be with someone. I like playing as a Davis cup. I love playing as a team because everything's on you when you're playing as a singles player. If you win, it's amazing. You get all the glory. If you lose, it's, it's all your fault. You know, so you have to be able to help these kids get through that when it doesn't, you know, it's not going that well. That's the advice I give. But most, you know, you're even kids at my academy. The parents, the, the biggest thing is gotta be the parents. Yeah. The parents are the ones that are putting the most pressure on you. Yeah, because when you're a teenager, you can mini-choose like, if you have to go to school or if you're on schooling, it's more like your parents would take the decision for you at the end. Exactly. You see a lot of kids project, a lot of parents are not projecting their dream of being athletes into their kids and that's a miracle for the... It's called living vicariously off your pit, which is what you don't want to do.

45:24So do you work? I often see the parents, you have a full job, right? Because you don't want your job to be like, let us take care of that kick. But then they feel like we're taking the, the kid. I'm not taking the kid. I got six kids in my own. I don't need any more kids. I need to make sure that you're not getting the kid to a position where he doesn't even want to do it anymore. They don't even understand it most of the time. I've seen it for a long time. And again, it's easy for me to say, I understand, you know, it's their kid. They get to do whatever they want, ultimately. But you gotta just understand what you're doing to that kid. You got to, it's the same thing. Perfect fine line. Pushing them enough and then being able to sort of, you're gonna have big hug at the end. Yeah. Yeah. Kids has to stay kids. Awesome. You'll find out sometime.

46:26You would do a little bit of that. Thank you so much, John. It's been an honor. You're welcome.