Johnson Wagner on Golf, Game Improvement Tips and The PGA TOUR

It is Mark and I am back from a two-week Odyssey, sojourn, broadcast the Ollano Ponder Invitational

for PGA Touralive which was a lot of fun and then I took a trip up to Grand Rapids

of Michigan and then over to Lansing, Michigan to speak with a Michigan PGA. Their teacher's

conference, which was a thrill, lots of fun. My good Pell Andy Matthews was one of the speakers

over there. If you haven't checked out Andy's podcast, if you want to learn about breathing

and diaphragmatic breathing and how you can use breathing to reduce nerves, improve performance,

improve focus, you need to listen to that and then go and get yourself a Neuropeak belt.

I'll be honest with you, I have not been using mine here recently, but after seeing Andy,

it kind of worked me up and I got back to it and my HRV numbers on my Woop device are doing way

better, which is a good thing because the last few weeks, especially this week, last week at the

Players Championship, there were long days I was on the World Feed, so for all my global tribe

who heard me, there were a few folks who reached out via social. I want to hear from you. Let me

know if you heard me and the announced crew of Brian Ketrick, Brennan De Young, Susie Waley,

and Bill Kratzett. It was a lot of fun in the players, it really was. So follow me on social,

the handles are at Mark underscore, Emelman, or you can message me if you're going to search and

subscribe to Mark Emelman on YouTube. I want to know if you heard me and what you thought,

nice messages only please. So I've mentioned Woop, it's a reminder just to, if you're trying to

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Now, after this conversation with Johnson Wagner, I'm going to share some more little nuggets,

little deals that you can get if you're looking to help out your game. But you must wait until the

end of this classic and fantastic conversation with my good buddy and now teammate at CBS, Johnson

Wagner. This is a thrill for me folks. He's an, look, I've known Johnson Wagner forever. Now,

I'm proud to call him a teammate. We played golf together for the first time a little ways back

and it was one of the more fun experiences I've ever had. And so I couldn't resist asking him to

join us on the show. So Johnson, welcome to the podcast. How are you? Mark, I can't believe that

it's taken this long for me to come on here. I'm very excited to be with you today. Yeah, well,

look, the thrill is mine. Okay, let's start this off for the bit of a bang show. We kind of like

your television career. Now that you get to walk inside the ropes, well, you've done some of it,

but you know, when you were with golf channel, it was more inside the booth where to me,

it's kind of clinical and surgical and it's all clean. When you're out there walking and you're

mixing it up with the guys and you're watching them play under pressure, I'm wondering if Johnson

Wagner three time PGA tour winner goes, gosh, did I make the same mistakes when I was playing?

Was there anything that you see these guys do that you're like, my goodness gracious me,

I wonder why? Well, why didn't I try that? Is there something like that?

Well, I just think what's really glaring at me when I'm out there walking is the fact that

these guys routines are spot on. Mark, I mean, you can you can start a stop watch on most of them

and they're going to be within a second or two every single time they hit a shot. And I think that

I always believed in my pre shot routine and it was very good and it's something that I'd like to

say when you're when you're under pressure, that's what you can rely on is your routine and your

process. And I just think being out there, especially with Scotty Schuffler, like he is so committed

to his routine and he practices it on the driving range. I just love seeing that out of those players.

Are you somewhat amazed? Because I find I catch myself being amazed too when I watch him go

about what he does. And it's not just the quality of the ball striking, but it's almost the simplicity

of how he goes about what he does. I'm waiting for something like heavenly to be dropped on me,

but he checks the grip, he checks the alarm, and he checks the ball position, and he goes. It's

as basic as that. And that's what is so impressive. And I think that's what a lot of people out there

that get all these launch monitors and then these linemen sticks. And I mean, there's a time

in a place, but when Scotty gets ready for a round, he is simple. Just like you said, I've been

watching him put his hand on that club the same way every time, checking it out and putting his

right hand on it is, it is the thing of beauty. And I think it's refreshing in an era of all this

technology to have a number one player in the world be so simple. I'm reminded of Arnold Palmer,

you know, back in the day when Arnold learned from his dad, PGA Pro Deacon Palmer, and he shows

young Arnold put your hands on the club like that and never ever change. And Arnold didn't deviate,

in fact, he taught a good buddy of yours and mine Sam Saunders, he's nephew the same thing.

And Sam turned into a good player. And yes, Scotty Sheffler, who's almost a reprise to your point

in this era of information, where he's like, let's get my hands on there, probably, man.

It's all the matters. Aim well, set up well, and ball goes where you're looking.

Okay, we're going to dive into that stuff with PGA professional, PGA tour professional,

but before that, I was Anna Johnson Wagner as guy from Quail Hollow in Charlotte,

guy from Virginia Tech, you know, I had no idea you were born in Texas and grew up in upstate

New York. So I'm learning things about my more friend too. So I'm sure the global audience would

like to know a bit more about you and how you came to where you are, please.

Well, my dad was in the oil and gas business in Amarillo, Texas with his family. At 38 years

old decided to go back to school and get his PhD and change his career. So he, we moved Nashville,

Tennessee, where he got his PhD of Vandy. And then he got a job teaching. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

And so it was funny. Like the Tennessee junior golf program was incredible. And I thought, man,

removing New York, there's not going to be any golf courses. There's not going to be any junior

program. Little did I know I was phone IE. New York is obviously flush with some of the greatest

golf courses in the world in the Metropolitan Golf Association runs some of the best junior events,

amateur events, professional events in the world. So it was really eye-opening for me to make

that move. And I definitely think living in so many different places shaped me who I am today.

I was very shy kid in high school. Didn't have a lot of friends and it's just, you know, all those

growing pains make you do your. I know what's Johnson Wagner player playing. I shared the story with

you and you seem sort of taken it back. And somewhat emotional because I was too. That my first

ever broadcast assignment in live radio. I was dispatched at the Green Briar Classic on Thursday

morning to go out and follow Johnson Wagner. And God forbid I didn't know who Johnson Wagner was.

And I found you and I joined you when you were going up, we're 10, 11, it's a par five. I think

it's 12. It's sort of dog legs around the corner and up the hill. It's beautiful fairway

metal offer hanging light to sort of the edge of the green and made four. And I was like, wow,

this is beautiful. Now what you play and I loved your swing. It was sort of Chad Campbell S can

kind of old school weapon and and I was like, man, I'm intrigued and you shot 68. Now fast forward,

we work together. So that's kind of crazy. But I'm getting to my point that I want you to elaborate on.

From that very first day to when I played golf with you recently, it doesn't look like much

as change man. And the approach to the game is still simple. And so I want to know as a kid growing

up, there must have been an input or something where you like, okay, this is how I do it. And you're

just going to keep doing that and it worked out well. Was there? I mean, I, you know, growing up,

I just like to play golf. My brother and I used to beat each other up and still do a bunch of

exactly. We have we have a bunch of friends we would always play with. And I never was a ball

hitting guy. I just like to go out and play. But one thing has changed. I was always a back of my

foot, you know, back of my stance hit a bullet sort of low draw. It's just the way I like to see

shots. And now as we played a couple weeks ago at the preserve, I've switched to now hitting a

fade exclusively. I don't even know how to hit a draw anymore. And I'm having so much fun playing

the golf left to right. I am not looking for my golf balls on the golf course anymore. I used to

be just a search party off every tee. I was struggling so much to put the ball in play. And I'm just

trying not to take myself too seriously anymore. I'm past the point of really thinking I can play

professional golf. So I'm just out there having fun played with my son yesterday. And just,

I'm just enjoying every minute of the game and hitting the fade mark has been an awakening. I wish

I had listened to my coach years ago because he was trying to get me to hit a fade since 2006.

Okay, more about the fade, the go to shot and all that stuff and parenting because Graham Wagner

is about to go to Virginia Tech. Actually, I shouldn't date this. That's a podcast. But very good young

player in Johnson, you know, obviously led his son to where he is. So more about that, but I've

got to ask the question now, because you made the statement where you were like, you know, I don't

take myself too seriously. And I want to say working in television, it takes a lot of gumption

to be able to poke fun at oneself. And a lot of folks watching this. So in the United States who

hang on the golf channel, they like you became a cult hero because you were fine with trying to

hit shots that the best of the best hit when they're at their best. And you were fine with also,

you know, showing yourself up. It takes a lot, it takes a lot to talk to us a little bit about that.

The inspiration, do you take great delight doing these sorts of things? And I know you're obviously

okay with, you know, the shot not working out. And then you have to kind of stand there and kind

of giggle at yourself. My brother told me a couple years ago, when I first started, he said,

you're in the perfect win-win scenario. If you hit a good shot, great. If you hit a bad one,

it's even better because people seem to love the bad ones. But Matt Heggardy was my studio

boss at golf channel. And it was his baby. It was his brainchild to be able to execute live shots,

recreating some of the best shots of the day. And I really, when he asked me to do it,

I was nervous. But then it was after the first week of doing it, the player's championship in 2024.

People were loving it. And I was loving being out there. It's nerve-wracking because it's not like

I'm going to the driving range and warming up and miss it. No, you get like one take. Yeah,

seven hours. Exactly. Crack my back, make a couple, you know, practice swings and just get right

in there. So I always found the chipping the hardest. You've helped me out dramatically a few

weeks ago. And my chipping this weekend, Mark was outstanding. Like if you win the money,

yeah, come on. I mean, yes. And I felt like I feel like I'm can think about hitting proper

gauze shots again. But chipping in those moments, recreating out on a major championship venue

off of a tight fairway or thick rough, it really got in my head quickly. And the nerves sort of overtook

a lot of that stuff when I was out there doing it. Okay. And then the shot, look, you started to

become a bit of a cult hero, but the shot that sort of hurt, was heard around the world was the

bunker shot there with the Pinehurst number two clubhouse right behind the green. And you got

brass and dishambo and the US Open trophy there in a bunker in the dock. And yeah, that was

incredible that man. That shot was impossible, big guy. It was, well, the first, I got a second

crack out of the first one I scored and never we never found it. It was in the bushes just

short of the clubhouse. But that whole, that whole evening was so weird because I'd wanted to hit

the second shot that he was under that tree branch and then walk up and then hit the bunker shot.

But he kept taking forever in the press center and then he was coming to the set. So I was actually

thinking I was going to get bumped and they kind of came down to us last second. And it was,

it was unbelievable. I was walking out of the bunker to go check out the puts that Rory had missed

and Bryson had made when Bryson pulls up in that golf cart. And Rich learner had told

during commercial breaks had Bryson, you should go check out Johnson. He's getting ready to hit

your bunker shot. And it's for Bryson to show up. I just think was amazing and getting to hold the

trophy after executing the shot perfectly was, it was unbelievable. And then I got to go and watch

had a beer with him got to watch the US Open trophy getting graved, ended up spending the night

at Pinehurst and playing off the next day with Tom Pashley and a couple other guys that run

punters. So it was, it was the greatest, greatest 24 hours. Well, good on you. Well,

folks, since Johnson has joined CBS, they've had you hit a seven iron off a cart path at Torrey

Pines. We first, first Johnson, I thought you did pretty well. And then you had to hold a putt

from off the green that Scotty Sheffield did at Phoenix. Life hasn't been easy, but you've shown

like a star as you always do. Let's go to the, the career and lessons learned.

You turned pro first of your conference at Virginia Tech. I had, in fact, come to find out that

you were playing number two behind Brendan the Young. And he's a good buddy. And I'm wondering how

you let him beat you in college. I mean, what are you even doing over here? He was so good. Mark,

he was unbelievable when he came to school. He was skinny. He had hair. He had this natural

ability. He didn't have to practice. He was just better than everybody else. Brendan is

probably the best golfer that I've ever been around. And had he just, had he worked a little

bit, and I'll tell him this to his face, had he worked a little bit, I think he could have been

a major champion. Incredible player. I'm very talented from Zimbabwe. So then you graduate,

you turned pro in 2002. Quickly you earn your nationwide tour or corn fairy tour. Now it's

known card. I mean, it didn't take very long. Now, a lot of folks, that is like one of the hardest

leaps from college to get a card. And even now with a PGA tour year, that is a massive acceleration,

man. I want to know about the self-belief, perhaps, or what transpired that you can go to

to a school and earn your card that quickly, man. I had won some tournaments in the New York area,

and I missed qualifying for the US Sameter and decided to turn pro for the Metropolitan Open

right before Q school started. And so I won the Met Open, made Twitter, still have the big check.

It was $23,000 paid for my Q school and bought a new car or a used car. And I was so ready to go

to this first stage of Q school just absolutely breeze through first stage. I had all this confidence.

It was, it was insane. And then second stage comes around, Stonebridge Ranch. And I'm in the final

group going into the last round. And all of a sudden the magnitude of the situation hit and I

ended up shooting 80 on the final round and second stage and got my car. It got to final stage on

the number last, like last man and man, Q school. I've done first through final twice. I've been to

final stage. I think it was six times, seven times, six round event back in the day. Q school is

really. I can say I'm happy I'm never going to go to Q school again because it is, it is some

of the most gut wrenching. Just your next year of your life is on the line that we talk about.

Let's talk about that, please, because every golfer watching or listening to this, we all have

our pressure in our own sort of a way. And I've been a caddy at tour school a few times. And

carrying the bagman, you are as nervous as a cat. And you guys are sending over a golf ball. And

many times Q school was at the stadium course out there in Palm Springs. And that's the visually

intimidating place bag in the day. Still is, but now you've got equipment that helps a little.

Talk about the handling of the pressure and the keeping the thing the thing because you're right.

You then go back to the hotel after around a golf and then you've got five more rounds. And then

you're playing okay and your mind projects. And then you could pull yourself back. And it's

it's just this mental grind, man. That my twice I played final stage at the stadium course.

And I think it's why I never played well at the Bob Hope or the American Express on that golf course

because I have so many scars from from Q school out there. And I just couldn't I couldn't get

past that golf course. I had one good chance in 06 December of 06 or was December of 05. I had a

chance to get through Q school. I was in the you know, 15th place going into the final round. I think

back then it was when they took 25 cards. And I just completely folded under pressure shot 77

in the final round did not get my card went back to the corn failure tour, which ultimately was

the best thing that ever happened to me because that next year 2006 on the corn failure tour.

I won twice. I finished second. And I think that's what really gave me belief that when I got out

to the PGA tour, I was going to stay had I gotten through that Q school without having the success

on the corn failure tour that I needed. I don't think I would have had a very long career.

So here's the thing because the one thing about you that I don't think people know is your

attitude is fantastic. And you said to me and it resonated, man. And you said, you know, if I've

got a decision between good and bad, I'm going to choose good. And if I've got a decision between

happy and sad, I'm going to choose happy. Now for all of us golf folks, that is one of the biggest

challenges there is. I almost feel like working on your golf swing is easier than choosing happy

over said in this game that beats you down so much. So I want to dive into your mind and your

emotions here, please. Well, it's like I've been talking to my son. You can control so few things

in the game of golf. You have to control the things that are controllable. Like your attitude,

how you react to certain things. We all have our moments. I've broken my fair share of golf clubs.

I've gotten mad and yelled on the golf course before, but I try to see things from that perspective

of, okay, I can control how I react to this good break. I can control how I react to this bad

break. And I think golf just becomes so much simpler that way. No, so many players that

choose to believe they're unlucky. I choose to believe that I'm the luckiest person that's ever played.

I get good breaks because my mind wills good breaks to happen. Plus, it's all how you perceive

a good or bad break as well. I think I know the answer to this, but I must ask this because you

had this climb from turning pro and O2, finding your way along, missing to a school a few times,

then 2006, you have your big year, you finish second on the money list, you earn your way to the

PGA tour. And then you suddenly win in 2007, you've earned your card in 2007, and you win the

shell open and you soon open in 2008. So there's this progressive climb. Convince folks,

or describe to folks that that climb for anybody is not linear. That thing is like a roller coaster

on your way up. So talk about that climb because it seems on paper, it's like, whoa,

this guy raced through the whole thing, but it's certainly, it's a challenging deal, huh?

It's very challenging. My rookie year 07, I started off great, played really well in the West Coast,

made I think my first seven or eight cuts. And then I hit a wall mid-season. I think I missed

13 of 14 cuts in a row, middle of the summer. And just it's always a roller coaster. I've always

found that when I want to know eight, I thought, you know, top of the mountain, things are easy now,

golf, I've figured it out, golf is going to be, it's just going to come to me. And then I went,

whenever I've had that sort of mindset, it puts you back in your place immediately. And I fell off

the cliff and had to pick myself back up over the course of two years, it took me to get back.

So golf is never a linear path. Scotty Schaeffler makes it look like it, but he has his own

little peaks and valleys in there in between. Everybody's golf career is somewhat of like a

cosine wave, but as long as it has a tendency to continue on that upward tick, then you know you're

going in the right direction. It is tough. And oftentimes those times for the touring

prevail and thinks it's so glamorous, it's not at all. I see for the folks listening, Johnson

just rolled his eyes, it must. And it's not glamorous. And most oftentimes those times in your hotel

room by yourself, and everyone's been there, even if it's your room and you playing golf for

your club championship or whatever, the member guest, we've all had those. Help us navigate that

stuff, please. Yeah, you know, being on the road, gosh, I mean, there was years, I was playing 31,

32, 33 events a year away from my wife, away from my kids. Like, yes, playing professional golf is

amazing. There was nothing I would have rather done, but it's those moments that you're lonely in a

hotel room. You've been on the road for four or five straight weeks. You're missing cuts. And it's,

you've, golf, you always have time to your, with your thoughts, like you better treat yourself well

because you're, you're kind of stuck out on island. But man, when you're traveling on the PJ tour,

playing professional golf, you need to have a community around you back in the day. My, my,

my caddy Matt Hauser was huge. We would go to dinner a lot together and hang out with other

players and caddies. You have to have that community because some of these guys that just go to their

hotel room and then get back to the golf course. I don't know how they do it because it is, it is,

it is a lonely, lonely road. It's easy for golfers to panic when things aren't going well. And

oftentimes panic is accompanied by searching for the secret when sometimes it's hidden in plain

sight. Sometimes it's not that far off. You guys are always like one swing away from a change

in fortune or one swing thought or something. I think panic is the enemy. And it's like I've

got to do something different and all of a sudden your ship that is on course, but might not be

going as fast as you would like gets turned off course. But all your intentions are still grand

because you want to do the right thing. Let's talk about that some because I feel like you can

really help golfers because I watch you and I see this upward progression and the bump in the

road. And then as soon as the bump in the road happens like you lost your card but then you come

back and then you win again. So it's crazy how to me your bounce back or you're perhaps not panicking

I don't guess. You know, real thing in your career. I've hit the panic button plenty of times.

It's I mean, I don't my my career was such an enigma. I found myself on the cut line so many times

and I think I lead the PGA tour and most cuts missed by one shot. I seem to come into that,

you know, Friday, last few holes every single week. Am I going to make it? Am I not? And it's all

about how you pick yourself up afterwards. You miss the cut. You come back. You work at it.

I've always found that the harder I work, the more I see it pay off and I have my firm believer if

if you work hard enough good things will happen. And rabbit ears because so many golfers are looking

for the next secret like they have then but hey, buddy's got a new driver. Well, I'm going to do

that all the PGA tour is a look over my shoulder lead. You know, everyone's looking at who's doing

what? Help us control as gravity is too, please. I the only time I ever really everybody was

using a track man and I'm like, I better do something. Yes, I'll buy a track man and start using it

that way. That's the only thing time I've ever been sort of influenced by other people. I find

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday on the driving range. There's always club reps wanting you to try this

shaft, that shaft, these clubs, those clubs. And I think my caddy, Matt Hauser, I'll bring him up

all the time. He was good at sort of insulating me from those sort of pitfalls, if you will, of trying

to, you know, try something that other people are doing or this is a hot shaft or this is a hot driver

head. I didn't I didn't really go down that path. Okay. I mean, I'm eternally impressed that

you're attitude and your manner and he's delightful to be around. And I use the word delightful

because it's route is delight. And in 2010, on the PGA tour, you finished 126th

when 125 keep their PGA tour playing privileges. And you just shared that you felt like Friday,

Cutline, you were that sort of a guy. But apparently you asked afterwards for your thoughts.

And many of us have seen players you miss by one and they are destroyed, inconsolable,

because it's horrible. And you apparently go, I'm delighted at this, right? Which is crazy.

Again, I'm I mean all of you. And then the few you following you turn around and you win in my

cover. And I firmly believe, maybe I'm crazy, but I firmly believe that you looked upon that

and I use the term in inverted commas failure, 126th. And you're like, no, I'm delighted. And you

reframed your mind to be able to come back next year and get a PGA tour when you're third.

And I hope us that I did I did finish third at Disney to move up to 126. So I was delighted. I was

outside the top 150 going into that week. And that was one of the best days played with Roy

Savitini on Sunday. Had to make about a six footer for par coming down the hill on the last

toll. And I took as an opportunity, knowing I was going to get limited starts to be ready

more often. And so when I got to my coba, I was training. I remember talking to Matt about it.

I was trying to do everything we called it preparing to win. So the way I practiced the way I

went through my shot selection on the golf course, I was preparing to win whether it was I didn't

realize it was going to be that week. But I thought it was going to be somewhere down the line. I

was going to win another golf tournament. And it was the the clearest mentally I've ever been

was that week in my coba just because I had I'd taken all the pressure off. I was preparing to win

a golf tournament. And and I that was something that I don't stick with swing thoughts or with

mental thoughts very long. But that's one that I should have probably held on to a little bit

longer. I love that. Being ready, preparing to win, being ready for everything. Because golf,

I mean, you see it. You know it. You've lived it at the highest level. Golf just when you feel

like you've got it and you've said, so something hits you or around a golf can be going along swimmingly.

Then you get a bad lie or a bad bounce or whatever. Golf is always there and it's always coming at you.

No matter how well things seem like you're going. So having this be ready mindset, it sort of

prepares you, I guess, for anything, the inevitable. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, the next year

at the Sony Open, I was so confident going in to that tournament. I knew I was going to I knew I

was going to win. I'd worked out all off season. I'd just really dedicated myself. And that Thursday,

I think I was five under start on the back nine. And I'm walking down the first fairway, making

the turn, thinking I was already planning my acceptance speech or winning that golf tournament.

I ended up shooting three or four over on the back nine. And it was such a it was such a reality

check. Like you get ahead of yourself. You get ahead of yourself. And then it brings you down. But

that one was that one was that one was cool. That was that was a that was a wake up call. Never

never plan your acceptance speech before you before you win the tournament mark. See folks, I'll

tell you, yes, Johnson Wagner, who is prepared to say that falling down on the second nine was cool.

Your mindset is great. I must ask you this before we get to like the mechanics of it all.

Looking back on your playing career, is there anything you would have done differently?

I wish I had stayed focused in the gym. I like I said, I worked out for about one year. It was the

greatest year I had in 2012. And then for some reason, I just didn't want to do it anymore. And I

really regret it. I wish I'd I hate the gym. I hate working out. But I saw what it did for me

positively. And that's probably my regret that I didn't stick with that longer.

Honestly, I love you. Okay. Let's talk about now playing the game and let's share some tips

because you're good at that stuff. And I'm going to start with finding you'll go too shot because

you said to me when we were playing golf and you've already referenced the fact that you were a

career drawer of the golf ball, like a flat drawer. Remember watching you play. Now you're hitting

a fade on command, high and low and high over you want. And some of the fades are kind of

fluid in the follow through. And they cut more than the others. And some of them are like

big high release. And they just topple over a little bit. That go to shots. I feel like

everybody can benefit from having something they can rely on in this unreliable game. So let's

let's talk about that, please. Well, so it's my belief that the new golf ball and the driver heads,

they just don't really want the ball to work right to left for me. I don't think I can spend

enough to get a ball in the air. I feel like my draw that used to start right and turn towards

the target. Now when I try to hit a draw, it starts at the target and moves left. And so I could never

really keep that ball working right to left at my target. It was always crossing the line. And so

I went back to an old swing thought from 2013, the Greenbrier Classic. It's the one week in my

career where I actually faded the golf ball. And I remember my coach Bobby Heinz and I working

leading into that tournament. And he really wanted me to cover the ball. He wanted me to

basically with the three wood swing left, take a divot and have the ball work left to right.

And so the way I did that, the way I felt that, I always kind of, you mentioned Chad Campbell,

I would pick the club up and set it really quick and didn't have a lot of shoulder turn,

a lot of hip turn in my back swing. And so the way I, the way I like to hit a fade is I feel like

I'm bringing the club a little bit more inside on the way back, which really gets me turning and

getting that nice shoulder turn. And then basically I try to come over the top of it and swing it

as far left as I can. And I've found the harder I swing it to the left. Yes, it starts left,

but there's no chance it's going left. And I've really gotten comfortable swinging the club to

the left as much as possible to get that ball to curve left to right. And it is dependable, reliable.

I know you know the seventh hole at quail hollow. Yeah.

Part five, creek down the right hand side, there's OB left, the tennis courts are over there.

Two years ago, for about a year and a half, I hit the ball into the homes right of the creek more

often than I could find the ball. And now when I step up on that seventh hole, I take it down the

left side of the fairway and I swing it as far left as I can and hit just this hot flat baby fade

I am just down the middle of that fairway every single time now and I am having a blast hitting the

driver again. I need to ask this because the the fade shot for the elite golfer like yourself,

that's where most golfers go. But most of the club golfers listening to you, they fade the thing

anyway. So first off, let's say they sing their coach and they're trying to straighten the fade

a bit. You talk about oh my gosh, it must have sounded like you were singing where you come over

the top of it as hard as you can, right, which most golfers think is bad.

When I watch you make the practice swing, it's almost an exaggeration of what you're trying to do.

And if I videoed your practice swing and your golf swing, they pull apart, but it's still a feeling.

So for the golf route, perhaps, is making they go to shot a draw, talk to them about the

pre-shot rehearsal and how it can play a role in what you're trying to do.

I so I there was an assistant pro at Quail Hollow a number of years ago. Now he's up at

Old Town Club in Winston Salem, Charles Frost. And he was just talking me through some stuff on

the range. It's always nice when you're working on stuff to have a brilliant mind to be able to

speak to about it. And he told me the difference, if you're trying to make a swing change that

is a minuscule, like, you know, just fractional difference in your change, the feel needs to be

massive. So the difference, like, I've always felt like a practice swing is a perfect time to

over to exaggerate and rehearse, like craziness, you'll never be able to get to that position.

So that's that's where that has come from for me is the difference between feeling real is a

massive thing. So having a practice swing, it's, I view it as if you're working on your game,

it's basically like being able to hit a bit of golf ball. I get to mimic what I want to do

with a practice swing. I like to make full practice swings with full speed and really try to

exaggerate that feeling. And it's worked for me. So if you're trying to hit a draw, I mean,

I don't know that I'd want to swing a practice swing where I'd want to swing it way out to the right.

But that's that's that's how much I do. I would say to golfers just to come along

side Johnson, exaggerations are great. And if you wanted to draw the golf ball, unlike Johnson who's

trying to come over it and turn left as much as you can, keep your back pointing to the target for

just a whisker longer in your downswing, because you'll push the path to the right then and then

you can go ahead and release the club face them. Anyway, that's that's good. I do want to ask you

this though, because for the golfer, perhaps who's working on a go-to shot and that involves

different spin to what we used to seeing. Oftentimes aiming is just different because we've been

aiming, you know, for a hot draw shot. So we're aiming to the right and all of a sudden the balls

doing different. Talk about picking new lines off the tee because sometimes that can be awkward

in terms of trusting what you're doing. I used to see every overhanging tree down the right side

off of the tee shot and be like, oh man, that's in my way, that's in my way. And I can never

understand how people looked at fade with the fade and seen, you know, seen those trees that would

interrupt a fade shot. But I am great at picking small targets, Mark. I think off of a tee,

you've got to pick really small targets in the distance. And I'm picking similar targets,

how my ball gets there is different. But I'm pretty much down the middle of most fairways and

less. You've got crosswinds and I like to pick leaves or branches on a tree way in the distance.

That's my favorite way to pick a target is picking a tree limb or they say a leaf, but my eyes

aren't good enough to see a leaf from 330 yards anymore. Cool. One more about the go-to shots.

You are not handcuffed by just a fade. I've watched you hit a fade that's 40 feet high in the air

and then I've watched you launch one 100 feet in the air. So let's help golfers too. We're saying,

you know, not every shot is kind of the same swing. You know, the spin may be the same, but how

it's hit is differently because the one thing I loved when I watched you play was you moving around,

your golf swings sort of remains the same, but your follow-throughs look like they difference

when you're just trying to hit different trajectories and stuff. I've really since become

more comfortable moving the ball left to right. I know when I'm swinging the ball, when I'm

swinging the club well, I like to have a stinger driver shot. And so I tee a little bit lower and I

just cover it as hard as I can probably hold off the follow-through for that lower flight a little

bit. It's fun being able to vary your trajectories. And you know, when I play member tees at

quail hollow, I can tee the ball up in the air and smoke it over some trees if I have to.

It's that that's when you know you have it is when you have those different windows that you can

hit shots at a different, you know, at a different trajectories, different spin rates.

The one thing I'm struggling with right now though is my three-quarter swing. And I finally yesterday

sort of had a little bit of an epiphany on my three-quarter wedge swing. And it was, I think I'd

been taking too big of a backswing and trying to almost decelerate into it, which is like

dumpy out to the right. And I just shortened my backswing and ripped through it with intention.

And so I'm pretty excited. I think these next few weeks, well, we're off. I'm going to get my

my three-quarter wedge game back in shape. That is such a good observation too because most

golfers confuse a three-quarter swing with slowing down. Where if the one thing you professionals do,

the only time you sit not slowing down or you're not going full speed with a shot,

is if the greens are like pebble beach where everything's ripping back on you, where you're

basically going slower. But it's never slower through contact. So what do you say there? So well

where swing back a bit shorter would make sure you're accelerating through the shot.

You'd rather hit it longer than short, most times if you're an amateur golfer.

Absolutely. And there's nothing worse than that swing of feeling like, oh, I've taken too

big of a backswing. I've got a decel into this. And then you've just completely lost contact on

that downswing. It's your helpless. You know it's not going to be good. You'd have to intentionally

mishit it to have it go where you want. But yeah, keeping the intention, keeping the speed up

through impact. No matter if you're hitting it 50% or a hundred percent, you've got to keep

the speed up to the headed zone. Love that. One more thing about the recreation of these shots

or something that you can go to. I want to revisit this because you said it and I'm sure

it was missed by most folks. When I've got to hit that stinger fade, I lower the T.

And I just make a slight adjustment in the follow through. Most club golfers don't they just

stick the team the ground. They don't move around on the tee box anyhow. They get in the middle of

the tee. They put the regular height and they just swing and hope where the professionals moving

around on the team ground to create angles. And you guys are varying tee height. I mean, it's

you're almost sitting the table or you stacking the odds in your favor.

Well, I mean, you have the ability to put it on a peg. If you want to hit it high,

if you want to hit it low, T low, and it's so simple. And honestly, I have started teeing it up.

I was always a draw. I was always teeing up on the left side of the tee box. Now it's

funny how my mind I go straight to that right team marker and peg it over there near that

right team marker every time. Love it. Okay, Dex. I got to ask you about the short game. This is

I'm not trying to get kudos or accolades or anything over here. But I want to know more

because people have seen you fall down. But you know, when you're trying to hit the recreate

these shots with no practice. And when you're chipping off tight lies and stuff,

you know, the closer you get to the hole, the more the expectations are higher. So the more you're

almost letting yourself down if you don't hit a good one. And once you start missing, it seems

almost impossible to get the club back to the ball. So you and I chatted and I showed you something

and some the light bulb went on. And it got me wondering because you're a good golfer and all

good golfers and folks watching this have inquiring minds. They're like, okay, what can I do to improve?

So I started wondering, well, Johnson's a good player. He's around great minds all the time.

Surely people were saying to you do X or do Y or try this or try that. So I guess I'm getting to

the question of when things are going wrong and information is becoming overload and becoming

harder and harder. It's to me one of the toughest places in the game to be, to organize your thoughts

and get you away out of that. So just talk a little bit about that, please. I had a lot of people,

Joe Mayo, Scott Hamilton. I had all these instructors trying to give me help back in the summer of

2024. And I just didn't, I didn't know what I was doing wrong and I just didn't want to deal

with it. But you said something to me that made so much sense. The reason I was struggling with

my chibi news because it was too far inside. And I'm coming into shallow, coming from the right.

Like, how can you hit a good pitch shot when you're coming from the inside into shallow? You got

me opened up. And it is so, I'm telling you what, like not that, you know, Joe Mayo gets crazy

with all his angles and the downward strike. But it makes sense. And the last few times I've played

since seeing you, I am now, I'm trying to sort of rehearse my practice swing a little bit exaggerated

and see how down I can hit into it and how left I can hit into it and actually letting the club

do the work for me as opposed to getting stuck inside and being in like, I know I told you that I

was really struggling with flinching and the impact from a golfing. Well, that's because the position

that I was in, I had to flinch. I had to do something because there was going to be no, there was

no way of hitting the proper shot. It has been so good, Mark, getting down, hitting down on it,

swinging left, getting myself some width, some opportunity. You make such a good point there.

And I want to mind this a little bit. Folks, you'll go for a lesson with your club pro, whatever,

and they're all well intentioned. Okay, we're not criticizing anybody. And I'm not criticizing Joe,

either. But when they tell you you flipping or you're not hitting down enough and stuff,

most times that is a function of something that's come before that. And all I said to Johnson,

I'm like, the way your shoulders are set up at address, I don't care how much you turn your

body open, you can't get open enough. So we moved the ball position and the posture back to what

you were saying about Scotty with grip, ball position, alignment. Because if you wonky that way,

you then having to make some sort of an arrow like flip or whatever to get the club back to the ball,

you can elaborate, please. Well, you're so right. I mean, it's you, my shoulders were shut,

which when your shoulders are shut, that's where the club path is going to go. So it's inside.

And for me to put the club on the ball, something had to happen in that strike zone or else I was

going to be behind it. And that's why I kept getting it's weird because I kept trying to get good

contact. So I put the ball further and further back in my stance, which didn't make the problem

more and more exactly. Which just exaggerates the inside motion and coming into shallow. Like,

there's no way with the ball as far back as I had the ball and as shut as my shoulders got,

there's no way to make proper contact. There's no way to have that. And so opening the shoulders,

moving the ball position a little bit and being able to feel the club going out on the way back

and across me. I mean, I know it's more up the line, down the line than anything, but that's how

different it had to feel for me to feel it right. And folks, it's as simple as this now when

Johnson has to recreate a shot and he wants to make the pro look way better than what they are,

where you can just jam the ball way back just close. You guaranteed to land the club in the

wrong place. So you haven't lost your stick, your stick, you just know how to do it now, which is,

I'm joking, but so often, look, the brain is a taskmaster. And it's like, well, if I go to hit the

ball there, the brain's going to organize stuff to get it there, no matter how much you try to do

something else. So again, you can create an environment before you even hit.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Cool. I'm looking forward to the next one you do.

Playing under pressure, it is a guaranteeing off. And pressure varies and we, you've played

under it, you've had puts to win tournaments, you've had put to make the cut, which to me,

I would argue sometimes are more pressure packed than the tournament winning puts.

Handling the pressure. Was there a key Johnson Wagner used? I mean, do you ever get used

to the pressure? Talk about first team nerves, all those sorts of things that you see the club

members you play alongside deal with, please. I always believed I had someone teach me in college

about breathing properly. And that's the only way I've ever been able to deal with nerves is

by through good breathing techniques. And I'm always a guy that's in through the nose, out through

the mouth as long as as long as I can handle it three or four good breaths, and it would bring my

heart rate down immediately. So for me, that's what I tell my son, you know, learn how to breathe,

and then you can control your heart rate. And that's, I mean, there's, I know the Houston Open in

2015, I was so nervous coming down the stretch and I was just breathing all day long. I think

it was an NBC telecast and I think somebody on the NBC telecast was like, well, not only is he

leading the tournament, but he's leading the tournament in most breaths taking. And I took that as

that's pride. That's what I was doing. That's how how I learned how to control myself in those

situations. Because just like, you know, changing both position and posture for pitching,

changing your breath changes your body from like sympathetic and freaked out and panicking

to eat a little bit more comfortable, even though you're in this very uncomfortable environment

of perhaps having to hit the first t-shot in front of all your buds or something like that.

Absolutely. And I think I've always been good off the first tee. I think nerves,

nerves allow you to do things better and or worse than your capable of. If you let nerves overtake

you, you're going to hit some of the worst shots. You're not even, you know, I couldn't hit that

shot on the range. If you gave me a bucket of balls, I couldn't hit a shot that bad trying to.

And then it also, if you embrace them, it allows you to hit the ball further. It allows you to

curve it more if you need to. It gives you nerves and adrenaline or it can be a super power if you

use them in the right way. See that folks reframing your attitude. Okay, last one works.

You're a dad of two and your son's going to play golf in college. I am a dad who has a daughter

playing golf in college, but I feel like I'm the worst dad in the history of like mankind,

you know, the way I deal with the college golfer. So help us parents, please, because you seem so

cool with your about your son going to college where I'm like, I'm freaked out off the time,

man, please help me. What do you mean you're free? Are you freaked out when you watch them play?

Yes, it's the my watching her play is my favorite thing ever and my least favorite thing ever

all in the same space of four hours. Well, I'm completely with you watching watching my son

play golf. I am an absolute nervous wreck on the inside. But the one thing that I've tried to do

is never let him see that. So I try to as as as terrible as it makes me feel on the inside,

I try to be calm and stoic on the outside. Of course, everybody hits bad shots. Can't let

them see that you think it was a bad shot. You've just got to stay the same. I had great parents

grown up. They were not very good golfers and they were just supportive. I never saw them hang

their head. I never saw them get nervous. They just they just kept that, you know, flat line

personality out there, which I think helps the junior golfer if the parent is is sort of cool,

then then they're not going to get too flustered. Help the junior golfer who's watching this too,

because we do have a lot of young fans like who like Graham Wagner, whose dad is a PGA

to a winner and a star on television. You know, it's a little bit of a shadow you're costing.

How do you how do you help the kid sort of forge their own identity and deal with who they are?

Well, he's he's he's amazing. He he we just want to I just want him to have fun when he plays

golf and he's doing that. As far as I don't worry about him, shadow, whatever, I don't worry

about that. He's been dealing with me his whole life. He he he takes himself way more seriously

than than I ever took mine and he's just amazing. Just find in his own way and his his path.

You're the best man. It's the easiest smile in broadcast belongs to Johnson Wagner and your joy

to be around. Thanks for joining us. I really appreciate you for the folks who aren't following you,

who want to know more. I'm where they go. Is the website or a foundation they can support or

a social media. Please share everything. Well, first key of greater Charlotte is is my absolute

charity of choice. It's an incredible program. They've got going on here in Charlotte. I'm on

Instagram. I don't know my handle. I don't know what it is. Johnson underscore Wagner or something

like that. I recently had my Twitter account hacked. So I've got a new Twitter account. It's Johnson

Wagoo is my new one. But I social media not not really on it. But you can listen to Brendan

DeYoung's My Radio show Wagoofulay on Sirius XM 11 to noon on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

There you go. Two of my favorites all on one show there. And I love the way you guys are insightful,

but you keep it kind of like too. It's it's a really good listen. Well, thank you Mark. Thanks

for having me, buddy. Yeah, thanks for having me. Thanks for joining. I appreciate you very much.

And I look, enjoy your time off. I look forward to seeing you in Augusta National very soon.

I can't wait for that. Lovely guy. Great golfing mind. And just a gem of a human being. And I've

got to tell you, Johnson can really still play. And you heard us talk about the pitching. It was

a thrill, really. And a lot of excitement for me to help him out. And if you need any help,

just reach out. I'd love to hear from you guys. Just message me on Instagram or on X.

The handle is Mark and the score in a moment or go and watch this podcast on YouTube.

And then just come in over there and I'll be happy to help in one way or the other. And I said

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